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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics
    #7818951 - 01/01/08 02:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i used to think ego loss was something that happened only on psychedelics. the truth is that we can drop our ego at any time, but our priorities may lie in the way of that. it is in fact the ego that convinces us that the psychedelic world is different than the "normal world", which is not to say that the normal world is not normal or that it resembles a psychedelic trip when our egos don't get in the way, although both of these things are true

i made this thread because i feel like i can't continue this life without being brave enough to make that first step. what if my ego falls and nobody is there to catch me? what if i've been seperated from my real self for so long that i could not drop the ego without serious psychic damage? this is the hardest thing i have ever had to do in my life, and there is just no way of negotiating or reasoning or attempting to understand that will get me off the hook.

how can this be? if i got myself into this, surely i can get myself out. aha, but that's exactly the thing. i CAN'T get out because i'm trying to bring the whole house outside - but you can't bring your house outside because it already is outside.. this is brutal. i can sit around and ask "will i be ok? what about the plans i had for THIS person?" but the whole point is that is i have to trust that it will be, but every fibre of my being is saying don't trust, don't trust

help me jesus! :lol:


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7819136 - 01/01/08 07:02 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i've always looked at dropping the ego as something that is psychologically protective, not treacherous

fear, anger, greed, lust, and negative emotions would tend to fall away

but suppose that you decide to go through with it: how are you going to transcend ego, simply by an act of will? or do you have a method?


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: Epigallo]
    #7819208 - 01/01/08 07:42 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The will is undoubtedly what to focus upon. I suspect that transcendence must be a neither voluntary or involuntary "act" of will.

Breath...


Edited by daytripper23 (01/01/08 07:49 AM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7819332 - 01/01/08 09:01 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Why drop the ego? I happen to like mine.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7819808 - 01/01/08 11:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

IMO if you "drop your ego" you are a dead monkey.

Lots of things can "educate your ego" and bring it into a more healthy relationship to so called reality. Most of those "things" are painful and shocking. Really though you can't do without an ego structure and be a little bouncing baby human.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: Icelander]
    #7822437 - 01/02/08 01:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The will is undoubtedly what to focus upon. I suspect that transcendence must be a neither voluntary or involuntary "act" of will.

Breath...




I agree, it's a tricky thing it seems

Quote:

but suppose that you decide to go through with it: how are you going to transcend ego, simply by an act of will?




I think that is really the only way. Any sort of preconceived method will only take me one step away from the actual act, it wouldn't be direct enough.

Quote:

Why drop the ego? I happen to like mine.




Well that's good. My ego happens to be self-limiting and tiring.


--------------------


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7823078 - 01/02/08 10:22 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

i used to think ego loss was something that happened only on psychedelics. the truth is that we can drop our ego at any time, but our priorities may lie in the way of that. it is in fact the ego that convinces us that the psychedelic world is different than the "normal world", which is not to say that the normal world is not normal or that it resembles a psychedelic trip when our egos don't get in the way, although both of these things are true





When you say "drop the ego", do you mean that as in the ego ceases to be? Or what?

I don't think it is possible to remain alive without a structure of self. Without it, what would be the motivation to eat? Sleep? Move? Do anything?

Perhaps though, you could see through the self, and see that it lacks any independent existence, and is actually a complex connection of ideas and images and memories that are created by circumstances. Such seeing would, IMO, not be dropping the ego, but would be seeing things the way they are. Once you see, there could be no more self-importance or uncertainty about life and death.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: Icelander]
    #7823109 - 01/02/08 10:31 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
IMO if you "drop your ego" you are a dead monkey.

Lots of things can "educate your ego" and bring it into a more healthy relationship to so called reality. Most of those "things" are painful and shocking. Really though you can't do without an ego structure and be a little bouncing baby human.:monkeydance:




I agree and disagree. I agree that you can't really "drop your ego", so to speak. But I disagree that the best thing to do is to educate your ego. Sure, education and having a good self-image are healthy and important, but if you just stop there, then you don't deal with our identification and attachment to our thoughts and feelings and desires and fears and our concepts, especially our self-concept.

You can educate your ego in that regard by verbally knowing/saying that those things aren't really you, or that they hold no real existence, or whatever. But you can intellectually know/say nearly anything. What really counts is experiential knowing. If you really, REALLY see the underlying nature of those things, then it's no longer a question. There is no more doubt.

But such experiential seeing doesn't come about from "educating the ego."


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7823120 - 01/02/08 10:34 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
Quote:

but suppose that you decide to go through with it: how are you going to transcend ego, simply by an act of will?




I think that is really the only way. Any sort of preconceived method will only take me one step away from the actual act, it wouldn't be direct enough.




Our individual wills are based wholly on our egos. Trying to willfully transcend yourself by making an active effort of self will only reinforce your ego.

On the other hand though, some willful effort may be necessary in the whole process at times.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: dblaney]
    #7823198 - 01/02/08 10:59 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

But I disagree that the best thing to do is to educate your ego. Sure, education and having a good self-image are healthy and important, but if you just stop there, then you don't deal with our identification and attachment to our thoughts and feelings and desires and fears and our concepts, especially our self-concept.

You can educate your ego in that regard by verbally knowing/saying that those things aren't really you, or that they hold no real existence, or whatever. But you can intellectually know/say nearly anything. What really counts is experiential knowing. If you really, REALLY see the underlying nature of those things, then it's no longer a question. There is no more doubt.

But such experiential seeing doesn't come about from "educating the ego."


Wrong, wrong, wrong. This is exactly what I meant by education of the ego. You have a really limited definition of education.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7823261 - 01/02/08 11:14 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Eventually your ego will be dropped for you (DEATH). In the meantime, you should practice the art of letting go so all of your little deaths and your big final one will be glorious instead of nightmarish. This is the key to life, IMO.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: Icelander]
    #7823597 - 01/02/08 12:33 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Wrong, wrong, wrong. This is exactly what I meant by education of the ego. You have a really limited definition of education.




If what I said is exactly what you meant by education of the ego, then what's "wrong, wrong, wrong" about it?

"Education" is a word with several meanings, and each of those meanings changes within a given context. What you originally said ("Lots of things can "educate your ego" and bring it into a more healthy relationship to so called reality") is pretty vague, and can be taken in many different ways.

Why are you getting all :crankey: when I assume that you just used the first definition in the dictionary for that word?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7823833 - 01/02/08 01:39 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Ego or Transcendental Ego? There is a Witnessing Awareness that sees but cannot be seen. It is what Eckhart Tolle calls "Being," while the contents of our ordinary mind: thoughts, feelings, sensations go to form "the egoic-mind." All of this mentation comprises form, wheras the matrix of awareness in which they take form is itself formless. If you want to experience this Witness through the medium of a great read, try The Power of Now.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/03/08 10:35 AM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7823851 - 01/02/08 01:44 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

If you want to experience this Witness through the medium of a great read, try The Power of Now.





What if I can't get ahold of the book until tomorrow?


--------------------


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OfflineOrbus
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7824046 - 01/02/08 02:54 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

You cannot drop the ego, but "you" can "learn" not to identify with it.

I have surveyed practically every system that attempts to accomplish this and I think finally identified the fastest and most efficient one.

It actually involves no "practice" per se. No meditation or anything like that, just direct pointing to your pure nature which you already possess and have to do nothing to attain.

Look up Nisargadatta Maharaj, Sailor Bob Adamson, John Wheeler or my personal favorite right now, Mooji http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Moojiji

I won't attempt to explain their teachings, but I would bet they exhibit the most direct methods of realization available at this point in time.


--------------------

------------------------------------------------------
Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: dblaney]
    #7824066 - 01/02/08 03:00 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

I disagree that the best thing to do is to educate your ego.

Hello! You stating that education had such a limited meaning. And by the way experience is educational.:tongue:

Why are you getting all  when I assume that you just used the first definition in the dictionary for that word? 

If I was mad I would have used the bold, as in Wrong,wrong,wrong


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7824074 - 01/02/08 03:02 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

...


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: Orbus]
    #7824128 - 01/02/08 03:20 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

...


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: Middleman]
    #7824170 - 01/02/08 03:33 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

I don't think this is the same as trying to will my ego away. The only way I could try and will my ego away is with my mind, and that would be foolish because then I am only reinforcing it. I am talking about a fundamental trust in the present moment, a surrender to a more greater part of yourself. This is not an act of will, it is actually the opposite - it's a letting go of control. You get these chances sometimes in situations and with people to take risks, go somewhere you never thought you could go, in your perception, new understandings


--------------------


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7824185 - 01/02/08 03:38 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

...


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: Icelander]
    #7824238 - 01/02/08 03:53 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Hello!




Hi! How are ya?

Quote:

You stating that education had such a limited meaning.




I was just going by a dictionary definition. You didn't specify what sort of education or in what context or anything like that, so how could I have known what sort of education you really meant?


Quote:

And by the way experience is educational.:tongue:




True that. Or at least, it can be.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7824307 - 01/02/08 04:17 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

" i used to think ego loss was something that happened only on psychedelics. the truth is that we can drop our ego at any time, but our priorities may lie in the way of that. it is in fact the ego that convinces us that the psychedelic world is different than the "normal world", which is not to say that the normal world is not normal or that it resembles a psychedelic trip when our egos don't get in the way, although both of these things are true"

When thinking about thinking, the social construction of ego tends to make things a little confusing. What helped me out (and I'm not saying that this would work for everyone) is to drop the word ego altogether.  There's too much baggage in that word; hidden meanings that need to be thoroughly unpacked less it confuses all of us!  The reason I say this is because of the sentence you put as

"the ego convinces us..."
 

^ that sentence right there should tell you to just do away with that concept...you are the one doing the convincing, not the sense of self.  it is your thought patterns which can still be assimilated even if your memories and the name you identify with are gone! 

"what if i've been seperated from my real self for so long that i could not drop the ego without serious psychic damage?"

^again...this is a fine line that you are treading on (myself and everyone else included!).  Just release this concept of ego!  It will make things quite a lot easier.  when you don't identify with this 'phantom self' which is only ya word anyway, then you can start unpacking this monstrosity!

"CAN'T get out because i'm trying to bring the whole house outside - but you can't bring your house outside because it already is outside.. this is brutal."

your housing example is a perfect illustration of this thought loop!   

so drop the ego...that is...quit spending the mental currency that you are using on this phantom self that really doesn't need to have a label in the first place. 

Look...there are times when I am sitting outside enjoying what's around me so much that I am not spending time thinking about where I am or who I am.  That doesn't mean I forgot...it just means that I am spending my mental currency on something else. 

see what I am getting at?
:sun:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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OfflineOrbus
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: kaiowas]
    #7824408 - 01/02/08 05:00 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

"so drop the ego...that is...quit spending the mental currency that you are using on this phantom self that really doesn't need to have a label in the first place." :thumbup:

This point is very important. The ego concept as well as the concepts associated with it, liberation, enlightenment, practice only introduce the illusion that there is something wrong with our current state right now.


--------------------

------------------------------------------------------
Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: Orbus]
    #7824893 - 01/02/08 07:02 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

This point is very important. The ego concept as well as the concepts associated with it, liberation, enlightenment, practice only introduce the illusion that there is something wrong with our current state right now.


Yes. Very important.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: kaiowas]
    #7826241 - 01/03/08 01:40 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
" i used to think ego loss was something that happened only on psychedelics. the truth is that we can drop our ego at any time, but our priorities may lie in the way of that. it is in fact the ego that convinces us that the psychedelic world is different than the "normal world", which is not to say that the normal world is not normal or that it resembles a psychedelic trip when our egos don't get in the way, although both of these things are true"

When thinking about thinking, the social construction of ego tends to make things a little confusing. What helped me out (and I'm not saying that this would work for everyone) is to drop the word ego altogether.  There's too much baggage in that word; hidden meanings that need to be thoroughly unpacked less it confuses all of us!  The reason I say this is because of the sentence you put as

"the ego convinces us..."
 

^ that sentence right there should tell you to just do away with that concept...you are the one doing the convincing, not the sense of self.  it is your thought patterns which can still be assimilated even if your memories and the name you identify with are gone! 

"what if i've been seperated from my real self for so long that i could not drop the ego without serious psychic damage?"

^again...this is a fine line that you are treading on (myself and everyone else included!).  Just release this concept of ego!  It will make things quite a lot easier.  when you don't identify with this 'phantom self' which is only ya word anyway, then you can start unpacking this monstrosity!

"CAN'T get out because i'm trying to bring the whole house outside - but you can't bring your house outside because it already is outside.. this is brutal."

your housing example is a perfect illustration of this thought loop!   

so drop the ego...that is...quit spending the mental currency that you are using on this phantom self that really doesn't need to have a label in the first place. 

Look...there are times when I am sitting outside enjoying what's around me so much that I am not spending time thinking about where I am or who I am.  That doesn't mean I forgot...it just means that I am spending my mental currency on something else. 

see what I am getting at?
:sun:




thanks for the words of advice. i do indeed see what you're getting at. every time i use the word ego i am only reinforcing a false sense of self, yes?

i know what that feeling of absorbtion is like, to be absorbed in what you are doing to the point where you are just completely in the zone. i can reach this through meditation but i'd like this to be more permanent, to be able to be in that center at all times. on the other hand, i don't think what i'm talking about can be achieved through meditation because that is still the mind stopping the mind. i guess it must be like a permanent meditation, awareness, i do nothing and so the baggage falls away

p.s thanks for the suggestions orbus, i'm really digging this mooji guy :smile:


--------------------


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: dropping the ego without the aid of psychedelics [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7826409 - 01/03/08 03:28 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Wow, great posting all around.

:sun:


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