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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Fan Blade inside FC?
    #7816571 - 12/31/07 10:31 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

My foaf was considering rigging a fan blade to the inside of the FC cover (176 quarts).

He would drill a hole in the center of the FC lid, and install the fan blade on the inside of the FC, with the motor remaining on the outside.

Would this be suitable to provide continuous air movement inside the FC, and eliminate the need for other forms of FAE?

Would this fan blade along with a cool mist humidifier pumping mist into the FC cover all the bases?

Would he still need to drill holes ala the shotgun FC? Or would the humidity tube and cool mist provide enough fresh air.

Also there are already several small hole drilled into the top the the handle.

His thinking was that by blowing the fan blade downward, that would create low pressure above the trays, and by having these drilled holes in the FC near the top and thus near the fan blade and low pressure zone, then the holes drilled in the top of the handles, just below the lid, would serve to allow fresh air to flow in continuously as the fan blade runs.

What about drilling holes in the lid, just above the fan blade. These holes would be directly above the low pressure zone created by the fan blade, and thus air would be pushed through the holes by the higher pressure outside the FC. Maybe cover these holes in micropore?


Edited by Captain Cubensis (12/31/07 10:52 AM)


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OfflineWronguy

Registered: 03/05/05
Posts: 4,450
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Question for Roger [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7816584 - 12/31/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

RogerRabbit and I have said this numerous times on the boards, please do not post direct messages to moderators or members in open forum. You may ask your question in a thread openly to everyone or shoot the individual a PM.

A simple PM to RR asking him to take a peak at your thread would have sufficed. Thank you for editing your thread title.


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InvisibleDontPlay
Yeah Science!
Male


Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 750
Loc: On Land most of the time....
Re: Question for Roger [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7816587 - 12/31/07 10:39 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I know this is for RR and i'm sure he will answer you sometime soon, but I have to ask what in the world is he using for a FC thats 176 gallons? Also the whole fan thing seems very complex when you could basically do the same thing with a computer case fan. Just have it pushing air out of the FC and drill holes so that new air will come in. All you would have to worry about then is filtering.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Question for Roger [Re: DontPlay]
    #7816612 - 12/31/07 10:51 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DontPlay said:
I know this is for RR and i'm sure he will answer you sometime soon, but I have to ask what in the world is he using for a FC thats 176 gallons? Also the whole fan thing seems very complex when you could basically do the same thing with a computer case fan. Just have it pushing air out of the FC and drill holes so that new air will come in. All you would have to worry about then is filtering.




The FC is a clear bin from Target, 176 quarts, not gallons, sorry I mis-typed.

Computer fans are not suitable for 100% humidity apps.

Thanks for your reponse.


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OfflineWronguy

Registered: 03/05/05
Posts: 4,450
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
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Re: Question for Roger [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7816636 - 12/31/07 11:04 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

>Would this be suitable to provide continuous air movement inside the FC, and eliminate the need for other forms of FAE?

I realize you posed this question for RR, but I'm going to give you my opinion just to have another one. Regardless of the size of the fan you use, your biggest challenge is going to be the amount of airflow created by the fan. I suppose you could set it to only turn on for a minute once an hour or every two hours, but a standard fan (small or large) is going to move quite a bit of air. My concern would be drying your substrate and/or casing layer out.

>Would this fan blade along with a cool mist humidifier pumping mist into the FC cover all the bases?

It would, but again you may be drying out your fruiting chamber too much causing the cool mist to either be insufficient or requiring you to run it more often. Certainly workable, but some adjustments would be needed to create the balance you need to maintain optimal fruiting conditions.

>Would he still need to drill holes ala the shotgun FC? Or would the humidity tube and cool mist provide enough fresh air.

I would always recommend another avenue for gas exchange to occur and to avoid excessive pressure in your fruiting chamber. The other concern is the amount of free floating air contaminates you would draw into the chamber. This is likely not as much of a concern during the first 1-2 flushes, but I think you'll find contaminates more challenging during the later flushes with this type of air induction. A good filter material could help you with this problem.

The other glaring issue I see is the lack of fresh air inlet. If the entire fan assembly, that is the blade, will be encapsulated inside the chamber, where are you going to draw in fresh air from?

>What about drilling holes in the lid, just above the fan blade. These holes would be directly above the low pressure zone created by the fan blade, and thus air would be pushed through the holes by the higher pressure outside the FC. Maybe cover these holes in micropore?

I could see that working with the holes above the blade, but I still feel you're going to have to much pressure in your chamber with this type of setup. Trapping humidity may be your biggest hurdle here. I hope that helps.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Question for Roger [Re: Wronguy]
    #7816662 - 12/31/07 11:12 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yes Wronguy, thanks, that does help. And no, this post isn't just for Roger, I respect any opinions I can get from masters like yourself.

My thought on the fan was that it would be a small blade running at a VERY slow speed, just enough to help prevent cobweb and trich.

Maybe the fan would come on every 5 minutes for minute, while the Cool Mist would shut down right before the fan kicks on and start up again after the fan quits.

A Cool Mist adapted with a mist hose running directly into the chamber should be able to keep RH near 100% don't you think?


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OfflineWronguy

Registered: 03/05/05
Posts: 4,450
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
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Re: Question for Roger [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7816737 - 12/31/07 11:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

>My thought on the fan was that it would be a small blade running at a VERY slow speed, just enough to help prevent cobweb and trich.

A slow speed would certainly help. If you're using a casing layer, which it sounds like you are, this could help with dactylium(cobweb mold). Your casing layer pH should be adjusted to around 7-7.5 to help prevent trichoderma mold from permeating.

>Maybe the fan would come on every 5 minutes for minute, while the Cool Mist would shut down right before the fan kicks on and start up again after the fan quits.

I don't think you need that much air exchange. Psilocybe cubensis only require about 1-2 air exchanges an hour for optimal primordia formation and final fruiting. You also only need your RH around 90%, even 85% would suffice.

You're going to have to play around with the settings to find your optimal balance. There is no one who can tell with 100% certainty that setup A will work better than setup B. I would start by running your fan for 1 minute every 20 minutes. Run your cool mist 24/7 to begin with, but if you find your at a constant 100% RH I would start making plans to slowly cut back the amount of time you run every hour. Perhaps adjust it back to say 45 on, 15 off, and so on.

This should get you started.


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InvisibleSillicybin
Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 2,134
Loc: Flag
Re: Question for Roger [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7816738 - 12/31/07 11:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Correct - the internals of a computer fan are not suited for high humidity (there are integrated circuits and a PCB inside, as well as wire winding that shouldn't be shorted.) If humidity condenses on the inside, the fan can will short out somewhere and cease to function.

I have used them in a greenhouse though, even with the cool mist inside the greenhouse blasting away. None of them have failed, even when they got caked with spores and soaked with water....


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
Bans for Pleasure
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Registered: 03/26/03
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Fan Blade Inside FC? [Re: Sillicybin]
    #7816751 - 12/31/07 11:39 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup: what Wronguy said.  The fan is going to do more harm than good.  Keep terrariums simple for best results.  Holes and perlite work fine.

As Wronguy also said, please don't address questions to members directly.  It's an open forum. 
RR


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Fan Blade Inside FC? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7819781 - 01/01/08 11:44 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
:thumbup: what Wronguy said.  The fan is going to do more harm than good.  Keep terrariums simple for best results.  Holes and perlite work fine.

As Wronguy also said, please don't address questions to members directly.  It's an open forum. 
RR




Not sure that's what Wronguy said, but the point is, FAE is FAE is FAE, how can some methods for attaining FAE dry out the casing while others don't?

Isn't the Rh more relevant than the type of FAE used?

Would running a fan inside the FC for 1 minute every 10 minutes really dry anything our if the air being moved around is 100% humid?

Versus, opening the FC to 15% humid ambient air to manually fan several times per day.

Certainly there is a number, a measure of how mush air should be moved around per volume.

Answer this though, how could cobweb or trich grow on a casing surface that is NEVER stale?

Perhaps I am innovating! LOL.

Seriously though, CAE instead of FAE.


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OfflineNibin
Getting there
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Registered: 11/29/05
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Re: Fan Blade Inside FC? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7820088 - 01/01/08 01:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
:thumbup: what Wronguy said.  The fan is going to do more harm than good.  Keep terrariums simple for best results.  Holes and perlite work fine.

As Wronguy also said, please don't address questions to members directly.  It's an open forum. 
RR




Not sure that's what Wronguy said, but the point is, FAE is FAE is FAE, how can some methods for attaining FAE dry out the casing while others don't?

Isn't the Rh more relevant than the type of FAE used?

Would running a fan inside the FC for 1 minute every 10 minutes really dry anything our if the air being moved around is 100% humid?

Versus, opening the FC to 15% humid ambient air to manually fan several times per day.

Certainly there is a number, a measure of how mush air should be moved around per volume.

Answer this though, how could cobweb or trich grow on a casing surface that is NEVER stale?

Perhaps I am innovating! LOL.

Seriously though, CAE instead of FAE.




Because it is different if you are displacing the air slowly and constantly through the holes or have a draught blowing straight onto a substrate. Wind dries things much faster than slowly moving air.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Fan Blade Inside FC? [Re: Nibin]
    #7823137 - 01/02/08 10:40 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Thanks for your informed responses, I appreciate the dialogue.

I guess, the real issue is Rh, correct? And of course, the moisture content of the casing layer, linked inextricably to the Rh of the surrounding air, and misting.

So really, the question might be this: Assuming enough misting of the casing layer takes place to offset the drying effect of CAE, at least during pinset, then as the pins begin to mature, back off the air exchange to allow for little to no misting during fruiting.

The question being, how much air exchange do they like? And how much is too much, again, assuming misting keeps the casing layer moist.


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Invisiblethedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
Re: Fan Blade Inside FC? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7823196 - 01/02/08 10:58 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

back off the air exchange to allow for little to no misting during fruiting.



Back off the moving air exchange...

Quote:

how much air exchange do they like? And how much is too much, again, assuming misting keeps the casing layer moist.



Around two complete exchanges per hour, I believe. And, I don't think there can be too much, as long as the RH is above 90%, at least.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Re: Fan Blade Inside FC? [Re: thedefone]
    #7823251 - 01/02/08 11:12 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

thedefone said:
Quote:

back off the air exchange to allow for little to no misting during fruiting.



Back off the moving air exchange...

Quote:

how much air exchange do they like? And how much is too much, again, assuming misting keeps the casing layer moist.



Around two complete exchanges per hour, I believe. And, I don't think there can be too much, as long as the RH is above 90%, at least.





That's what I suspected as well, CAE at 90% plus humidity, what dries out?

Plus isn't air exchange the best mold inhibitor?

Since cobweb and trich cannot grow on a surface that has constantly moving air, CAE would be the best contam fighter it would seem.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
Re: Fan Blade Inside FC? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7823390 - 01/02/08 11:38 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

> CAE at 90% plus humidity, what dries out?

Any humidity less than 100% will dry out your material. At 100% water starts condensing. At less than 100% water continues to evaporate into the air.

> Plus isn't air exchange the best mold inhibitor?

No, a clean growing area and good procedures are the best mold inhibitors.

> Since cobweb and trich cannot grow on a surface that has constantly moving air, CAE would be the best contam fighter it would seem.

That's not true at all. While preventing stagnant air will help reduce certain contams it does not prevent them.


-FF


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