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coberst
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Mom and dad were heroes
#7815879 - 12/31/07 02:53 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Mom and dad were heroes
I was born in 1934 during the Great Depression. Dad drove a city bus in Amarillo Texas. My family moved to a very small town in Oklahoma before my first birthday; I had four siblings at the time we moved from Texas to Oklahoma to manage a small café and hotel that was then being managed by my uncle who wished to return to farming.
During the next 15 years my family managed that café and hotel. The building and the business was owned by an absentee landlord, Mr. Ruttzel. The operation was a 24/7 job that took the total energies of all members of the family as each of us became old enough to work.
This operation allowed my parents to raise a large family in reasonably comfortable conditions throughout the depression and war years of World War II.
What is the meaning of ‘hero’? I have taken one definition from the dictionary and have modified it to represent my comprehension of this concept of ‘heroic’. Heroic is a concept meaning a “determined effort [directed to achieve good or deter evil] in the face of difficulty”. In this definition I define ‘good’ as being that which promotes human life and ‘evil’ as that which promotes human death.
I think that there are degrees of heroic action. Some heroes are greater than others depending upon the circumstances of their action. To be a hero often requires courage and often causes personal hardship.
On a scale of one to ten I would classify the following people as heroes in most people’s judgment: Mother Theresa (10) Police and firemen entering the burning buildings in 9/11 attack (8 to 10) My mom and dad (7) Men and women fighting in Iraq: our side (5 to 10) their side (?) Youngster really trying to make good grades in school (7)
The psychologist Alfred Adler said: “The supreme law [of life] is this: the sense of worth of the self shall not be allowed to be diminished.”
Heroic actions are our means for maintaining our self esteem. Without heroic action we cannot maintain our own self-esteem. Self-esteem is self-respect. We judge our self as to the degree of worthiness for respect. We rely partially upon the judgment of others but that respect from others is filtered by our own judgments to how heroic our actions are.
It appears that we must feel self-esteem or we suffer mental illness of one degree or another. I gain self-esteem by reading lots of stuff, writing about that stuff, and posting that stuff on this forum, i.e. I am a self-actualizing self-learner (6).
What do you do for self-esteem?
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PhanTomCat
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7818697 - 12/31/07 11:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
coberst said: What do you do for self-esteem?
Every morning when I wake up, I look in the mirror at myself, and say ten times, "You are beautiful"....

Just kidding, I eat lots of seafood.... 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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JoseLibrado
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7818885 - 01/01/08 01:36 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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self esteem is self respect.
If respect is no different than esteem what does it mean to you to be respectable, or esteemable.
I know self respect is assuming that the definition of self worth, is arrived at a point that you believe is higher.
Ie/ self actualization is better than self demunition, it is a higher goal to acheive and is then heroic. One brings you up the other down...
However, up is only known when there is a down. to prove this try to explain to yourself, what up means without referring to another thing, such as down, or high.
Or try to understand what it means to go up, without reflecting what going up is, as opposed to going down.
PEace
-------------------- The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution. And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change. Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems. Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....
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coberst
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7819092 - 01/01/08 05:19 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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One reason that I posted this was because I wanted to introduce a word that is so very important to the sciences of psychology and psychoanalysis.
All that I have read about these two sciences indicate that what are called heroic acts are those acts that reinforce our self-esteem and with out self-esteem we are pitiful creatures.
We have many words in the language that have both a common usage and also have a technical usage. The word ‘hero' is one such word. I have been studying psychology and psychoanalysis for the last many months and these domains of knowledge use the word 'hero' in a technical manner.
One of the difficulties we always have when we try to learn a domain of knowledge that is new to us is learning the vocabulary. The OP reflects how this word is used in these sciences.
My act is heroic if I think it is and it is also heroic if others think that it is. If my act is heroic then my self-esteem grows. We are not talking about absolutes here. In some cultures if I stone to death my sister for dishonoring my family then my act is heroic.
Lack of self-esteem is one of the major causes of mental illness. This lack of self-esteem can also lead to obesity when the individual tries to find solace in food when self-esteem is not up to par.
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Icelander
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7819839 - 01/01/08 12:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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What do you do for self-esteem?
I post at the Shroomery and sometimes fantasize about winning the lottery and sticking it to all my enemies.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7819847 - 01/01/08 12:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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In some cultures if I stone to death my sister for dishonoring my family then my act is heroic.
Thanks for letting me know that the people who did this aren't mentally ill. I wouldn't have known.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7819903 - 01/01/08 12:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
What do you do for self-esteem?
I like a nice hot sauna.
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eve69
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What's with this fucking cross posting everywhere. Why would someone join just to post this garbage. Saw this same shit elsewhere on the net. I don't get the importance.
-------------------- ...or something
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Middleman

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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: eve69]
#7820662 - 01/01/08 04:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes strange, I've seen this everywhere.
NLP? Miiiiiiiind controoooool???
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7820815 - 01/01/08 05:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
coberst said: One reason that I posted this was because I wanted to introduce a word that is so very important to the sciences of psychology and psychoanalysis.
All that I have read about these two sciences indicate that what are called heroic acts are those acts that reinforce our self-esteem and with out self-esteem we are pitiful creatures.
We have many words in the language that have both a common usage and also have a technical usage. The word ‘hero' is one such word. I have been studying psychology and psychoanalysis for the last many months and these domains of knowledge use the word 'hero' in a technical manner.
One of the difficulties we always have when we try to learn a domain of knowledge that is new to us is learning the vocabulary. The OP reflects how this word is used in these sciences.
My act is heroic if I think it is and it is also heroic if others think that it is. If my act is heroic then my self-esteem grows. We are not talking about absolutes here. In some cultures if I stone to death my sister for dishonoring my family then my act is heroic.
Lack of self-esteem is one of the major causes of mental illness. This lack of self-esteem can also lead to obesity when the individual tries to find solace in food when self-esteem is not up to par.
coberst -
Experimental psychology utilizes the most rigorous scientific controls, but the application of psychology to psychotherapy, although claiming a basis in science is really grounded on various psychological theories. Psychoanalysis, based on Freud's theories, which are brilliant and sometimes true (i.e., universal patterns of behavior, not culturally bound and idiosyncratic) is far more of an art than any kind of science. Psychoanalytic interpretations of the same data will be different from analyst to analyst.
Why does someone who claims to be 74 years old have a preoccupation with self-esteem is my question (as a psychotherapist), and moreover, where does the inordinate degree of parent worship stem from? I mean, your parents were survivors and their discipline was admirable, but why equate them to 'heros,' which are the protagonists in ancient Greek mythology, sometimes semi-divine beings born of male gods and mortal females (as in the Jesus mythos). Im 20 years your junior, but I see some thoroughly unresolved Freudian, superego issues in your post which relegate the original god-like status to parents, while the offspring's (you) own ego suffers feelings of insufficiency. Have you ever been to a psychotherapist in your life, because your post is particularly poignant, especially given your age and which [Eriksonian] 'life task' a 74 year old would typically be preoccupied with?
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Love Cap
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Middleman]
#7820831 - 01/01/08 05:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think entering that higher sphere of knowledge, that 'oneness', that certain realization that we're all fitting in with the universe and nobody else truly knows what the fuck is REALLY going on, and nobody is going to really know unless we combine all of our knowledge and share this realization, and profound moments together.
I think THAT would fix a lot of mental illnesses.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7820919 - 01/01/08 05:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
We have many words in the language that have both a common usage and also have a technical usage. The word ‘hero' is one such word. I have been studying psychology and psychoanalysis for the last many months and these domains of knowledge use the word 'hero' in a technical manner.
Really?  Why don't you tell me more about it's "technical usage"?
Quote:
Lack of self-esteem is one of the major causes of mental illness. This lack of self-esteem can also lead to obesity when the individual tries to find solace in food when self-esteem is not up to par.
Can you perhaps elaborate on this idea? For what I know, it is the lack of reason, the lack of understanding and the need to feel important (along with the need to make "heroic acts" ) which lead one to have psychological problems.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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PhanTomCat
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7821608 - 01/01/08 08:48 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
In some cultures if I stone to death my sister for dishonoring my family then my act is heroic. . Thanks for letting me know that the people who did this aren't mentally ill. I wouldn't have known.
I have heard that one cannot overdose on pot, nor get stoned enough to die.... 
Quote:
coberst said: One reason that I posted this was because I wanted to introduce a word that is so very important to the sciences of psychology and psychoanalysis. . All that I have read about these two sciences indicate that what are called heroic acts are those acts that reinforce our self-esteem and with out self-esteem we are pitiful creatures. . My act is heroic if I think it is and it is also heroic if others think that it is. If my act is heroic then my self-esteem grows.
I save my cat's life every single day by feeding it, thus making me a hero.... But for the fact that I feed him, he would die....
Get a compatable pet, it will save your self esteem, and your life.... 
Quote:
coberst said: Lack of self-esteem is one of the major causes of mental illness. This lack of self-esteem can also lead to obesity when the individual tries to find solace in food when self-esteem is not up to par.
I would say trauma and/or abuse is one of the major causes of "mental illness" - which may also lead to low self esteem (depending upon the context)....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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coberst
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Mark
Is psychology a science? It all depends upon your definition of science. If the natural sciences are the only sciences then psychology would not be a science. If the social sciences are science then psychology is a science. If the human sciences are a science then psychology is a science. Where does one go for authority for such matters? I suggest that you go to the philosophy of science for your answer.
Quickie from wiki
Philosophy of science studies the philosophical assumptions, foundations, and implications of science, including the formal sciences, natural sciences, and social sciences. In this respect, the philosophy of science is closely related to epistemology and metaphysics. Note that issues of scientific ethics are not usually considered to be part of the philosophy of science; they are studied in such fields as bioethics and science studies. In particular, the philosophy of science considers the following topics: the character and the development of concepts and terms, propositions and hypotheses, arguments and conclusions, as they function in science; the manner in which science explains natural phenomena and predicts natural occurrences; the types of reasoning that are used to arrive at scientific conclusions; the formulation, scope, and limits of scientific method; the means that should be used for determining when scientific information has adequate objective support; and the implications of scientific methods and models, along with the technology that arises from scientific knowledge for the larger society.
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coberst
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Mushroom
McMansions equals heroic action for American citizens.
"We're not selling shelter," says the president of Toll Brothers, a builder of upscale homes. "We're selling extreme-ego, look-at-me types of homes." In 2000, Toll Brothers' most popular home was 3,200 square feet; by 2005, it had grown 50 percent, to 4,800 square feet. These "McMansions" often feature marble floors, sweeping staircases, vaulted ceilings, family rooms, studies, home entertainment centers and more bedrooms than people. 'House Lust' Hits Home Article from Washington Post Jan 2, 2008
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coberst
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7822712 - 01/02/08 06:00 AM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
I would say trauma and/or abuse is one of the major causes of "mental illness" - which may also lead to low self esteem (depending upon the context)....
>^;;^<
Our standard mode of life is repression which I think might be regarded as self-abuse.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7822978 - 01/02/08 09:33 AM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Science, from the Latin, 'scientia' means knowledge, and psychology is certainly about knowledge. Yes, social science is considered to be science from those disciplines' perspectives, but when compared to physical sciences where true lawfulness rules, social sciences are more phenomenological descriptiveness. When I wrote my dissertation in human development (developmental psych), I used a 'historical narrative' approach, not an empirical, statistical approach. My dissertation was phenomenological in nature, and the discipline of phenomenology utilizes a technique which is intended to approximate 'objectivity,' just as the scientific method does.
There are however, variables which effect human behavior, the likes of which are only now beginning to be subjected to scientific scrutiny (see Rupert Sheldrake's The Sense of Being Stared At: and Other Unexplained Powers of the Human Mind). The variables in these phenomena do not have an effect on the rate of particle decay or how much carbon dioxide is produced by so much acetic acid and so much sodium bicarbonate. So my point is that psychology - the study of the psyche - is an incomplete science at best, and much more of a phenomenological inquiry. Only at a very physiological level is human behavior going to be predictable - like the high statistical probability of a person's hand recoiling from the touch of a hot skillet. Specific psychotherapeutic results of say, dream interpretation or hypnotherapy (to name two which I have experience in) are so weighted to the subjective pole of the client-therapist relationship, that to call these practices science is to be abusing the word. They may be immensely helpful to people, but it is more art than science.
Incidentally, I have studied the philosophy of science within the disciplines of both philosophy and psychology, not from a Wikipedia article which is not a reliable source academic accuracy. Perhaps a reading of Thomas S. Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions will elicit in you a welcome 'paradigm shift.'
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coberst
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Science, from the Latin, 'scientia' means knowledge, and psychology is certainly about knowledge. Yes, social science is considered to be science from those disciplines' perspectives, but when compared to physical sciences where true lawfulness rules, social sciences are more phenomenological descriptiveness. When I wrote my dissertation in human development (developmental psych), I used a 'historical narrative' approach, not an empirical, statistical approach. My dissertation was phenomenological in nature, and the discipline of phenomenology utilizes a technique which is intended to approximate 'objectivity,' just as the scientific method does.
There are however, variables which effect human behavior, the likes of which are only now beginning to be subjected to scientific scrutiny (see Rupert Sheldrake's The Sense of Being Stared At: and Other Unexplained Powers of the Human Mind). The variables in these phenomena do not have an effect on the rate of particle decay or how much carbon dioxide is produced by so much acetic acid and so much sodium bicarbonate. So my point is that psychology - the study of the psyche - is an incomplete science at best, and much more of a phenomenological inquiry. Only at a very physiological level is human behavior going to be predictable - like the high statistical probability of a person's hand recoiling from the touch of a hot skillet. Specific psychotherapeutic results of say, dream interpretation or hypnotherapy (to name two which I have experience in) are so weighted to the subjective pole of the client-therapist relationship, that to call these practices science is to be abusing the word. They may be immensely helpful to people, but it is more art than science.
Incidentally, I have studied the philosophy of science within the disciplines of both philosophy and psychology, not from a Wikipedia article which is not a reliable source academic accuracy. Perhaps a reading of Thomas S. Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions will elicit in you a welcome 'paradigm shift.'
I agree that psychology is not a normal science in Kuhn's meaning of that term. I would guess that only the natural sciences can fit the norms of normal science, i.e. they alone can have a paradigm. I suspect paradigm is far too restrictive for any of the human sciences.
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coberst
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7830998 - 01/04/08 07:59 AM (16 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quotation from “The Birth and Death of Meaning” by Ernest Becker.
“Anthony Quinn in his great role in “Requiem for a Heavyweight” earned his inner sense of self-value by constantly reminding himself and others that he was “fifth-ranking contender for the heavyweight crown”. This made him really somebody, gave him continual nourishment, allowed him to hold his head high in the shabbiest circumstances. Academic intellectuals have their own fine gradations of worth: a six-hour teaching load, with no under-graduate teaching, in an ivy-league school; a three hour teaching load, with only one undergraduate course, in an almost ivy-league school. How these balance in the scale of self-worth can cause agonizing life decisions.”
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7831491 - 01/04/08 10:34 AM (16 years, 28 days ago) |
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It strikes me as sad that people identify their sense of self-worth with financial worth. And, so that people will know that they are worth something, they constantly demonstrate this by ensconcing themselves in 'name brand' neighborhoods, palatial, mansion or mini-mansion homes (depending upon how much they can pull off, if not actually afford) and designer clothes and jewelry. This has always been the case since time immemorial. Since money is also power, such people also immerse themselves in the company of other wealthy and powerful individuals, and since beautiful 'things' are always purchasable, so are beautiful people who love things and use people (versus those who love people and use things). Voila! We have a complete set of human beings who are so worshipful of form, for form's sake (not as vehicles for higher being, or compassionate action) that many are willing to kill or brave prison for the acquisition of beautiful (yet impermanent) forms.
Such is the profane person, the mundane, pedestrian individual. No matter how much money is acquired, class is never acquired long with it. New money flashes bankrolls like a Miami drug dealer, or wears expensive yet garrish clothing. Crude materialists scream "Look at me!" from their humongous gas-guzzling chrome yellow Hummers - all in the feeble attempt to impress others with identical values and identically adolescent psyches.
Money/power, social status and sex serve as the bases for much of our society's sense of self-esteem. It is transient being based on externals: money, connections and physical beauty, all of which tend to diminish in varying degrees. In lesser amounts are those whose self-esteem is based on survival skills (e.g., mountaineers) or conversely on killing (sanctioned warriors, soldiers of fortune, assassins).
Intellect can be another basis for self-aggrandizement and self-importance, which really are only as 'big' as those one is comparing oneself to. That usually does not expand outside of one's own lifespan. I mean, are there inventors today who could match the diversity of Edison? No, but then again, we are living in an age of specialization. Status may be the result of a new paradigm and subsequent discovery, but research scientists are not motivated (for the most part) by the need for fame, knowledge is the game.
Pretty much self-esteem issues, as in Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, or in Hindu chakra psychology, constellate around basic human forms of motivation, but not the higher levels of human motivation which are characterized by a reduction of, and ideally, an absence of self-importance which is the inflation of simple self-esteem. So what's it gonna be: big breasts, big muscles, big bankroll, big expert, or big asshole, as the basis of one's self-esteem? There ARE alternative roles, but they derive from less selfish forms of motivation, and those roles are weighted more to 'giving' than to 'getting.' This being a philosophy and spirituality forum, it behooves me to point to an answer in the direction of selflessness rather than selfishness as a basic philosophical stance, and to further direct the inquiry to spiritual practices which diminish self-importance in favor of self-transcendence.
- MtG
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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coberst
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Mark
Money is what the American culture uses for keeping score of our worth. The more net-worth the more self-worth. This is something promoted by our capitalistic ideology and also by religion.
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Icelander
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in the direction of selflessness rather than selfishness as a basic philosophical stance,
Being selfless is an impossibility. I have stated this over and over here and given examples. IMO it's delusional and without merit to believe otherwise.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Icelander]
#7832731 - 01/04/08 05:07 PM (16 years, 28 days ago) |
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Well, since you said it, it MUST be true!
I use selflessness to indicate the opposite direction of selfishness. Perhaps you would appreciate the word altruism since the root word 'self' is not there to set you off so. Altruism seems a secularization of compassion, which has strongly Buddhist overtones, but is better than the biblical word 'love' which carries WAY too much baggage. It is a matter of wisdom to discern when compassion has over-reached itself and become slavish co-dependency. It really IS a "razor's edge" when it comes to 'the wisdom of skillful means [compassion].'
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Icelander
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Actually I like "enlightened self-interest". Doing for others is often the best way to serve our best interests. I think it's the best we can do with the human psychology we have. It's actually enough. If people really understood what was in their best interest and acted on it I believe we would have a lovely time here on this planet.
Well, since you said it, it MUST be true! Markos I believe we are making real progress here. 
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (01/04/08 05:12 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Icelander]
#7832811 - 01/04/08 05:30 PM (16 years, 28 days ago) |
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Doing simple 'favors' for strangers, with not even a thought of recompense, is altruism. There may not be any self-interest in it if one chooses to act as a servant to the Way. Granted, stopping to change the flat tire of a drop-dead gorgeous motorist but not a motorist who might actually be repulsive to you is a matter of self-interest, and none too enlightening. I am reminded of one of Chris Rock's shows: "Would you like some dick?" is the underlying motive in the former case. One might just feel good about oneself in the latter case, and that too is self-interest. It would be more true to nature to act because that is what the universe demands at that moment, and even being a little annoyed, but stopping to help anyway seems more honest than either of the above scenarios.
I can remember small incidents when an individual verbally expressed the need/desire for something which I just happened to have at that very moment, and I presented those things spontaneously. Yes, people were pleased, but a couple of times they were strangers and I never saw them again. Neither did I premeditate any ulterior motive. Spontaneity is a word that I gleaned from my earliest readings of Zen, and sometimes there just isn't very much self or ego or self-interest in the mix, there is just spontaneity, which is often perceived by the receiver as being compassionate action, unselfish (selfless) or perhaps even generosity. Do not tell me that you have no experience like this, or that it doesn't exist because then you are just being a recalcitrant pisher!
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
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Doing simple 'favors' for strangers, with not even a thought of recompense, is altruism. There may not be any self-interest in it if one chooses to act as a servant to the Way.
OK I'll state my case once again. To act for a stranger without thought of recompense would only be done by someone who felt it was the best/wisest thing they could do. The thing that would satisfy them and make them happy and feel that life and their actions were good right or worthwhile or served some cause they believe in or a higher purpose or be their definition of loving.
And there my dearest Markos is the personal payoff. Without the personal payoff there would be no reason to act whatsoever.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Icelander]
#7833904 - 01/04/08 10:36 PM (16 years, 28 days ago) |
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You are too cynical for anybody's good. Inaction is just nay-saying and is covertly hostile. It's not about 'me' if I act in a selfless manner, it is about the 'other.' There are, undeniably, two poles in an I-Thou relationship, but according to you, transcendence of self-interest is impossible. You choose to view all action as coming from some self-serving motive, howsoever subtle. This is simply wrong from my perspective. And no this isn't a Polish joke.
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Veritas


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Quote:
Transcendence of self-interest is impossible
I have to agree with Icelander on this one. We are always acting from our self, whether that self believes in compassion or cruelty. The values which guide our actions are self-chosen, whether we are aware of this or not. If I fulfill my values, I feel good about my actions. If I act in opposition to my values, I feel bad about my actions. This internal pain/pleasure experience will influence my future actions.
Mother Teresa believed in compassion, and her actions fulfilled her values. Hitler believed in cruelty, and his actions fulfilled his values. It is likely that they BOTH felt good about their behaviors. Did she act selflessly, and he act selfishly? NO, they were both acting in their own self-interest.
IMO, the best we can hope for is that our self-interest will be mutually beneficial, as NO ONE will continue a path of action which is in conflict with their internalized values (self-interest).
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Veritas]
#7835280 - 01/05/08 12:09 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
Transcendence of self-interest is impossible
I have to agree with Icelander on this one. We are always acting from our self, whether that self believes in compassion or cruelty. The values which guide our actions are self-chosen, whether we are aware of this or not. If I fulfill my values, I feel good about my actions. If I act in opposition to my values, I feel bad about my actions. This internal pain/pleasure experience will influence my future actions.
Mother Teresa believed in compassion, and her actions fulfilled her values. Hitler believed in cruelty, and his actions fulfilled his values. It is likely that they BOTH felt good about their behaviors. Did she act selflessly, and he act selfishly? NO, they were both acting in their own self-interest.
IMO, the best we can hope for is that our self-interest will be mutually beneficial, as NO ONE will continue a path of action which is in conflict with their internalized values (self-interest).
A monk asked Wei-kuan: "Where is Tao?" Wei-kuan answered: "Right in front of us." "Why don't I see it?" asked the monk. "Because of your egotism." "But if I cannot see it because of my egotism, can you see it?" "As long as there is 'I and thou,'" said the master, "this complicates everything and there is no seeing Tao." "Then when is there neither 'I' nor 'thou, 'is it seen? The master replied: "When there is neither 'I' nor 'thou', who is here to see it?" - Zen Mondo
Can you not forget the doer for the deed?
'Vanity Smurf' goes about everywhere, looking into a mirror as he goes, with nary a view to THAT which is beyond his reflection.
From a transcendental perspective, the seer vanishes and there is only the seen. Your views are those in which the ego retains supremacy. Awareness can slip out of its identification with the 'survival/pleasure principle' and the 'will to power' and discover a higher valence primarily as a unifying principle (Hridayam, Tiphereth/Rahamim, Vajrasattva). 'The snake sheds its skin at the rate that the snake sheds its skin' but those here who see themselves as perfectly content in their current state of identity are not going to shed their skin anyway.
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Icelander
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Your beliefs are fine as subjective beliefs but I see no rational evidence for them in human physiology or psychology.
You are a very black and white thinker IMO. The fact that we are designed as animals to act in our self interest is not a negative but the most positive of Universal design (Tao). To act in our own self interest (when we actually have the awareness to determine what that might be) can only create a paradise on earth IMO. Your beliefs IMO create a standard that is impossible to actualize but like a carrot before the horse leads one on forever while never satisfying actual hunger.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Icelander]
#7835687 - 01/05/08 01:45 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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That's odd...or perhaps your interpretation is. 'I' am a black/white thinker? My posts are about the transcendence of opposites. YOU on the other hand are seated firmly on one side of a see-saw with you firmly on the Earth and the opposite side up in empty Air. I spoke of "the razor's edge" which here would be a weightless balance of weighted opposites.
I must be self-actualized to the extent that I am content with my life and experience no "hunger." I am riding the waves successfully because I am simultaneously aware of the still depths. In practice, going to work on Monday mornings is feeling ever closer to leaving work Friday afternoon. That is the best practical metaphor I can come up with at the moment that describes my subjective experience of 'Being There,' or Here.
The mammal that I am has the ability to transcend the 'natural' for the 'spiritual' - Paul's "natural man" versus his "inner man." I am a proponent of a 'transcendental ego' - a perspective which is the Conjunction of Opposites in balance. I may 'believe' that I AM this Awareness, but this Awareness 'Knows' Itself. These are the waves and the depth respectively. We are both, ego and Self.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
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The mammal that I am has the ability to transcend the 'natural' for the 'spiritual'
As there is no evidence for this I will chalk it up to your age and eccentricities. 
Maybe if I noticed something about your posts that stood out as really different and spiritual or beyond the "mere human" I might take an interest in your stance.
'I' am a black/white thinker?
Yes, you cannot admit the possibility that your stance could be incorrect while I can admit to any possibility.
I must be self-actualized to the extent that I am content with my life and experience no "hunger." I am riding the waves successfully because I am simultaneously aware of the still depths. In practice, going to work on Monday mornings is feeling ever closer to leaving work Friday afternoon. That is the best practical metaphor I can come up with at the moment that describes my subjective experience of 'Being There,' or Here.
I'm not sure what you are trying to convey here but self-actualization is something many of us do and do not connect it with the spiritual or divine something or other.
We are both, ego and Self.
Maybe you are under the impression that all we are is ego if we are not spirit.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (01/05/08 02:05 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Icelander]
#7835832 - 01/05/08 02:24 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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"Only those who have eyes like the sun can look into the sun." - Plotinus
Since you apparently see only form where I see formlessness, you are not able to 'see the forest for the trees.' It is, again, our typologies, which are quite different. I am an Introverted Intuitive...and you are not. Therefore, we see things very differently. Typologically, INTPs are only 1%-3% of the American population and I encounter what you call eccentricity fairly often (as does my Lady who is also an INTP).
I did not use the words "spiritual" or "divine" in the quote you highlighted, yet you intuited that I intended to convey "something" or "other." Let me focus on "something" or "other" because they carry less baggage. The transcendental is a receding 'horizon' of a 'sky' which encompasses everything and every particularity. It is much like Blake's transcendentalism:
"To see a world in a grain of sand, And a heaven in a wild flower Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour"
Either you see it, or you don't.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
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Since you apparently see only form where I see formlessness, you are not able to 'see the forest for the trees.
You do have a nice sized view of yourself I'll give you that. Maybe you do need an spiritual self to deal with all that ego.
I am an Introverted Intuitive...and you are not. Therefore, we see things very differently. Typologically, INTPs are only 1%-3% of the American population
More specialness for you Markos. But I'm pretty sure you don't know what I am as you seem to only see your superiority and surety that you see the forest and the trees.
Either you see it, or you don't.
Some see aliens, some see gods, some see demons and apparitions and bogymen. However they usually turn out to be delusional and their visions are self serving and self comforting.
And by the way. You may not think I see the forest for the trees but you might be mistaken. I also hold out the possibility that your view is the correct one and I don't completely write it off even though I don't see any good evidence for it. I try to keep my mind open about all this. And I try to remind myself that I don't know everything, but I suspect many things, and even when I seeming have evidence I believe that my mind is not capable of comprehending ultimate reality and could possibly make an incorrect interpretation.
"If you have many ideas you will have good ideas" - Moshe Feldenkrais
I believe the above quote to be a profound one.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (01/05/08 03:17 PM)
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Epigallo
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Icelander]
#7836296 - 01/05/08 04:17 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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I read about a study in ODE magazine where a large sample of people considered "altruists" were put in a setting where they could view a suffering person in need, and then see that person be helped by someone else. They were insulated from both people so that they could not interact with them at all.
Their neurological states were mapped while they watched the scene.
Scientists found nearly the same activity in the experiment as one shows when they are actually the "helper", feeling good about another being helped.
Doesn't that seem to take the "self" out of "enlightened self-interest"?
If you insist that that is still "self-interest" because it feels better to be compassionate than indifferent, that seems like a bizarre linguistic convention that only hinders communication.
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Epigallo]
#7836390 - 01/05/08 04:37 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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well put, bradley. let's not over-extend the logical power of "self-interest"
--------------------
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Veritas


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Quote:
Awareness can slip out of its identification with the 'survival/pleasure principle' and the 'will to power' and discover a higher valence primarily as a unifying principle
This is pure conjecture. It is far more likely that the ego (self concept) undergoes remodeling over time, based upon the values and beliefs held by the SELF. The claim that awareness is somehow different and separate from what we know as ourself is baseless and indefensible.
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Veritas


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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Epigallo]
#7836851 - 01/05/08 06:47 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
bradley said: they could view a suffering person in need, and then see that person be helped by someone else.
Scientists found nearly the same activity in the experiment as one shows when they are actually the "helper", feeling good about another being helped.
Doesn't that seem to take the "self" out of "enlightened self-interest"?
Vicarious enjoyment of watching one's values enacted does not remove the "self" from enlightened self-interest. I enjoy reading the "Chicken Soup for the Soul" series of books, love watching movies or TV shows where people help others, enjoy reading articles about philanthropy and those who seek out opportunities to connect with and aid fellow humans and other animals. My enjoyment is based in a sense of shared values, of believing that what I see as important is also important to others.
Self-interest can be expressed in extremely beneficial ways, as well as in extremely detrimental ways. It all depends upon what you are interested in. 
Quote:
If you insist that that is still "self-interest" because it feels better to be compassionate than indifferent, that seems like a bizarre linguistic convention that only hinders communication.
This is not about linguistics, but about understanding that the division between so-called altruism and so-called selfishness is illusory. It's all an expression of self-interest.
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Epigallo
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Veritas]
#7837025 - 01/05/08 07:34 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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To me it seems that it's about language to the extent that people can not use the words "altruism" or "selflessness", which are useful for describing certain behaviors and outlooks, without being prescribed a lesson from certain individuals on Universe As Self!
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daytripper23
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Veritas]
#7837036 - 01/05/08 07:36 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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Veritas, examining the act of compassion which consequently makes the self feel good, does the feeling itself actually arise out of your sensation, or from the abstract "knowledge" that you have helped somebody? These kind of feelings come out of a largly undefined, basically meaningless level of reality.
Take faith for instance, many people feel good, even enlightened, based upon (a sometimes obviously) insubstantial supposition about reality.
Or a genuine materialist, no hope of a god, and surrounded by deterministic machines. Is this person incapable of compassion, outside of material reward? Driving down the street, a squirrel jumps out, and not regaurding what a mess it will make, for the street, or for his car, he still decides not to hit this animal.
Instinct.
Really, how much sense does it make to care for someone other than your self, for ANYbody? How much sense does it make to fall in love, or even to lust?
It does not make a grain of sense. When you get down to it, your talking non-sense. Even a completely materialistic value of beauty is utterly inexplicable.
What is compassion? To presume that all aspects of compassion are consequent of self satisfaction, presumes much of something we do not at all understand. Have you ever thought that self satisfaction is consequent, and conceivably unrelated to the actual act itself; making it an act of true, selfless compassion?
Though of course our minds arent limited to working this way, the actual turn of events goes in this same causal direction.
Edited by daytripper23 (01/05/08 07:48 PM)
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CosmicJoke
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7837197 - 01/05/08 08:43 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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how do you rate somebody who imbibes what i think terence mckenna coined as a 'heroic dose' of mushroom tea? .... if you're not afraid you've taken too much, then you didn't take enough
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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daytripper23
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: CosmicJoke]
#7837210 - 01/05/08 08:46 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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Lol.
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Icelander
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Epigallo]
#7839875 - 01/06/08 02:46 PM (16 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
bradley said: I read about a study in ODE magazine where a large sample of people considered "altruists" were put in a setting where they could view a suffering person in need, and then see that person be helped by someone else. They were insulated from both people so that they could not interact with them at all.
Their neurological states were mapped while they watched the scene.
Scientists found nearly the same activity in the experiment as one shows when they are actually the "helper", feeling good about another being helped.
Doesn't that seem to take the "self" out of "enlightened self-interest"?
If you insist that that is still "self-interest" because it feels better to be compassionate than indifferent, that seems like a bizarre linguistic convention that only hinders communication.
A bizarre linguistic convention that only hinders communication.
I think your post is a bizarre debate tactic that proves nothing about your point.
If I watch someone being helped and "feel good" about it, who's case does that make?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Epigallo
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Icelander]
#7841070 - 01/06/08 07:54 PM (16 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
If I watch someone being helped and "feel good" about it, who's case does that make?
If you do, most people would commend you on being very altruistic. In your language, you would be commended on being very self-interested.
If you are narcissistic and are merely content about the idea that you behave like the person that helps, "self-interest" works pretty well. If you feel good spontaneously, without self-reflection, "altruism" works pretty well.
If you are arguing that only narcissism exists, then I admit, this is not a problem of language, it is a debate over how an individual behaves. However, I don't see how that could possibly be argued given that one can't self-reflect ALL the time.
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Icelander
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Epigallo]
#7842748 - 01/07/08 09:16 AM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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You seem so confused about what I am saying.
We always act on our own behalf first. If I do something for someone else it's because I value that action and so it serves me. This is so fucking simple that the "illusive obvious" that Feldenkrais wrote about must be in effect here. Or, people just don't want to be honest about themselves most likely for religious self-important reasons.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (01/07/08 09:17 AM)
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Epigallo
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Icelander]
#7844278 - 01/07/08 03:59 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
This is so fucking simple that the "illusive obvious" that Feldenkrais wrote about must be in effect here
man, what I'm trying to say is fucking complicated! 
but really, for the most part I agree with you, in how my view differs I have already given my best shot at articulating. I think my main formulation is: We need a better language of compassion. "We always act on our own behalf first." just doesn't cut it.
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Veritas


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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Epigallo]
#7845427 - 01/07/08 08:11 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Compassion Deep awareness of the suffering of another coupled with the wish to relieve it
To clarify the point that Icelander and I have been making on this thread, I will as you two questions about the definition I've quoted:
1. Who has the deep awareness of the suffering of another?
2. Who wishes to relieve it?
The self is the originator of actions which may be motivated by compassion or cruelty, deep awareness or indifference and disconnection. It is absurd to claim that certain actions are somehow "selfless" and not motivated by the internally-held awareness and value judgments of the individual.
Perhaps what we are all getting at here is that actions which neglect or ignore the well-being of others are often detrimental? Is it really necessary to put forth the impossible goal of becoming self-less in order to promote mutually-beneficial actions?
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Epigallo
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Veritas]
#7845584 - 01/07/08 08:41 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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3. Who is the experiencer of any experience?
Answer: self
I understand what you are saying, it is exactly what I thought Icleander meant when he said "there is no such thing as selflessness, I say this all the time, etc., etc.".
However, the statement that all actions are self-serving is not congruent with the principle of #3. It may be true most of the time, for most people, and you can twist it around to make it fit just about any situation, but ultimately, I just don't feel that it describes what is happening. #3 is the principle; "enlightened self-interest" or whatever self-serving philosophical paradigm you like to use is one perspective - one reality tunnel, of that principle.
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