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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
    #7837197 - 01/05/08 08:43 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

how do you rate somebody who imbibes what i think terence mckenna coined as a 'heroic dose' of mushroom tea?  .... if you're not afraid you've taken too much, then you didn't take enough :wink:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #7837210 - 01/05/08 08:46 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Lol.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Epigallo]
    #7839875 - 01/06/08 02:46 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
I read about a study in ODE magazine where a large sample of people considered "altruists" were put in a setting where they could view a suffering person in need, and then see that person be helped by someone else. They were insulated from both people so that they could not interact with them at all.

Their neurological states were mapped while they watched the scene.

Scientists found nearly the same activity in the experiment as one shows when they are actually the "helper", feeling good about another being helped.

Doesn't that seem to take the "self" out of "enlightened self-interest"?

If you insist that that is still "self-interest" because it feels better to be compassionate than indifferent, that seems like a bizarre linguistic convention that only hinders communication.




A bizarre linguistic convention that only hinders communication.:rofl2:

I think your post is a bizarre debate tactic that proves nothing about your point.

If I watch someone being helped and "feel good" about it, who's case does that make?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Icelander]
    #7841070 - 01/06/08 07:54 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

If I watch someone being helped and "feel good" about it, who's case does that make?




If you do, most people would commend you on being very altruistic. In your language, you would be commended on being very self-interested.

If you are narcissistic and are merely content about the idea that you behave like the person that helps, "self-interest" works pretty well. If you feel good spontaneously, without self-reflection, "altruism" works pretty well.

If you are arguing that only narcissism exists, then I admit, this is not a problem of language, it is a debate over how an individual behaves. However, I don't see how that could possibly be argued given that one can't self-reflect ALL the time.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Epigallo]
    #7842748 - 01/07/08 09:16 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

You seem so confused about what I am saying.

We always act on our own behalf first. If I do something for someone else it's because I value that action and so it serves me. This is so fucking simple that the "illusive obvious" that Feldenkrais wrote about must be in effect here. Or, people just don't want to be honest about themselves most likely for religious self-important reasons.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/07/08 09:17 AM)


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OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Icelander]
    #7844278 - 01/07/08 03:59 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

This is so fucking simple that the "illusive obvious" that Feldenkrais wrote about must be in effect here




man, what I'm trying to say is fucking complicated! :laugh:

but really, for the most part I agree with you, in how my view differs I have already given my best shot at articulating. I think my main formulation is: We need a better language of compassion. "We always act on our own behalf first." just doesn't cut it.


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InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Epigallo]
    #7845427 - 01/07/08 08:11 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Compassion
Deep awareness of the suffering of another coupled with the wish to relieve it




To clarify the point that Icelander and I have been making on this thread, I will as you two questions about the definition I've quoted:

1. Who has the deep awareness of the suffering of another?

2. Who wishes to relieve it?

The self is the originator of actions which may be motivated by compassion or cruelty, deep awareness or indifference and disconnection. It is absurd to claim that certain actions are somehow "selfless" and not motivated by the internally-held awareness and value judgments of the individual.

Perhaps what we are all getting at here is that actions which neglect or ignore the well-being of others are often detrimental? Is it really necessary to put forth the impossible goal of becoming self-less in order to promote mutually-beneficial actions?


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OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Veritas]
    #7845584 - 01/07/08 08:41 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

3. Who is the experiencer of any experience?

Answer: self

I understand what you are saying, it is exactly what I thought Icleander meant when he said "there is no such thing as selflessness, I say this all the time, etc., etc.".

However, the statement that all actions are self-serving is not congruent with the principle of #3. It may be true most of the time, for most people, and you can twist it around to make it fit just about any situation, but ultimately, I just don't feel that it describes what is happening. #3 is the principle; "enlightened self-interest" or whatever self-serving philosophical paradigm you like to use is one perspective - one reality tunnel, of that principle.


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