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coberst
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Mark
Money is what the American culture uses for keeping score of our worth. The more net-worth the more self-worth. This is something promoted by our capitalistic ideology and also by religion.
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Icelander
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in the direction of selflessness rather than selfishness as a basic philosophical stance,
Being selfless is an impossibility. I have stated this over and over here and given examples. IMO it's delusional and without merit to believe otherwise.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Icelander]
#7832731 - 01/04/08 05:07 PM (16 years, 28 days ago) |
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Well, since you said it, it MUST be true!
I use selflessness to indicate the opposite direction of selfishness. Perhaps you would appreciate the word altruism since the root word 'self' is not there to set you off so. Altruism seems a secularization of compassion, which has strongly Buddhist overtones, but is better than the biblical word 'love' which carries WAY too much baggage. It is a matter of wisdom to discern when compassion has over-reached itself and become slavish co-dependency. It really IS a "razor's edge" when it comes to 'the wisdom of skillful means [compassion].'
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Icelander
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Actually I like "enlightened self-interest". Doing for others is often the best way to serve our best interests. I think it's the best we can do with the human psychology we have. It's actually enough. If people really understood what was in their best interest and acted on it I believe we would have a lovely time here on this planet.
Well, since you said it, it MUST be true! Markos I believe we are making real progress here. 
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (01/04/08 05:12 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Icelander]
#7832811 - 01/04/08 05:30 PM (16 years, 28 days ago) |
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Doing simple 'favors' for strangers, with not even a thought of recompense, is altruism. There may not be any self-interest in it if one chooses to act as a servant to the Way. Granted, stopping to change the flat tire of a drop-dead gorgeous motorist but not a motorist who might actually be repulsive to you is a matter of self-interest, and none too enlightening. I am reminded of one of Chris Rock's shows: "Would you like some dick?" is the underlying motive in the former case. One might just feel good about oneself in the latter case, and that too is self-interest. It would be more true to nature to act because that is what the universe demands at that moment, and even being a little annoyed, but stopping to help anyway seems more honest than either of the above scenarios.
I can remember small incidents when an individual verbally expressed the need/desire for something which I just happened to have at that very moment, and I presented those things spontaneously. Yes, people were pleased, but a couple of times they were strangers and I never saw them again. Neither did I premeditate any ulterior motive. Spontaneity is a word that I gleaned from my earliest readings of Zen, and sometimes there just isn't very much self or ego or self-interest in the mix, there is just spontaneity, which is often perceived by the receiver as being compassionate action, unselfish (selfless) or perhaps even generosity. Do not tell me that you have no experience like this, or that it doesn't exist because then you are just being a recalcitrant pisher!
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
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Doing simple 'favors' for strangers, with not even a thought of recompense, is altruism. There may not be any self-interest in it if one chooses to act as a servant to the Way.
OK I'll state my case once again. To act for a stranger without thought of recompense would only be done by someone who felt it was the best/wisest thing they could do. The thing that would satisfy them and make them happy and feel that life and their actions were good right or worthwhile or served some cause they believe in or a higher purpose or be their definition of loving.
And there my dearest Markos is the personal payoff. Without the personal payoff there would be no reason to act whatsoever.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Icelander]
#7833904 - 01/04/08 10:36 PM (16 years, 28 days ago) |
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You are too cynical for anybody's good. Inaction is just nay-saying and is covertly hostile. It's not about 'me' if I act in a selfless manner, it is about the 'other.' There are, undeniably, two poles in an I-Thou relationship, but according to you, transcendence of self-interest is impossible. You choose to view all action as coming from some self-serving motive, howsoever subtle. This is simply wrong from my perspective. And no this isn't a Polish joke.
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Veritas


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Quote:
Transcendence of self-interest is impossible
I have to agree with Icelander on this one. We are always acting from our self, whether that self believes in compassion or cruelty. The values which guide our actions are self-chosen, whether we are aware of this or not. If I fulfill my values, I feel good about my actions. If I act in opposition to my values, I feel bad about my actions. This internal pain/pleasure experience will influence my future actions.
Mother Teresa believed in compassion, and her actions fulfilled her values. Hitler believed in cruelty, and his actions fulfilled his values. It is likely that they BOTH felt good about their behaviors. Did she act selflessly, and he act selfishly? NO, they were both acting in their own self-interest.
IMO, the best we can hope for is that our self-interest will be mutually beneficial, as NO ONE will continue a path of action which is in conflict with their internalized values (self-interest).
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Veritas]
#7835280 - 01/05/08 12:09 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
Transcendence of self-interest is impossible
I have to agree with Icelander on this one. We are always acting from our self, whether that self believes in compassion or cruelty. The values which guide our actions are self-chosen, whether we are aware of this or not. If I fulfill my values, I feel good about my actions. If I act in opposition to my values, I feel bad about my actions. This internal pain/pleasure experience will influence my future actions.
Mother Teresa believed in compassion, and her actions fulfilled her values. Hitler believed in cruelty, and his actions fulfilled his values. It is likely that they BOTH felt good about their behaviors. Did she act selflessly, and he act selfishly? NO, they were both acting in their own self-interest.
IMO, the best we can hope for is that our self-interest will be mutually beneficial, as NO ONE will continue a path of action which is in conflict with their internalized values (self-interest).
A monk asked Wei-kuan: "Where is Tao?" Wei-kuan answered: "Right in front of us." "Why don't I see it?" asked the monk. "Because of your egotism." "But if I cannot see it because of my egotism, can you see it?" "As long as there is 'I and thou,'" said the master, "this complicates everything and there is no seeing Tao." "Then when is there neither 'I' nor 'thou, 'is it seen? The master replied: "When there is neither 'I' nor 'thou', who is here to see it?" - Zen Mondo
Can you not forget the doer for the deed?
'Vanity Smurf' goes about everywhere, looking into a mirror as he goes, with nary a view to THAT which is beyond his reflection.
From a transcendental perspective, the seer vanishes and there is only the seen. Your views are those in which the ego retains supremacy. Awareness can slip out of its identification with the 'survival/pleasure principle' and the 'will to power' and discover a higher valence primarily as a unifying principle (Hridayam, Tiphereth/Rahamim, Vajrasattva). 'The snake sheds its skin at the rate that the snake sheds its skin' but those here who see themselves as perfectly content in their current state of identity are not going to shed their skin anyway.
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Icelander
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Your beliefs are fine as subjective beliefs but I see no rational evidence for them in human physiology or psychology.
You are a very black and white thinker IMO. The fact that we are designed as animals to act in our self interest is not a negative but the most positive of Universal design (Tao). To act in our own self interest (when we actually have the awareness to determine what that might be) can only create a paradise on earth IMO. Your beliefs IMO create a standard that is impossible to actualize but like a carrot before the horse leads one on forever while never satisfying actual hunger.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Icelander]
#7835687 - 01/05/08 01:45 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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That's odd...or perhaps your interpretation is. 'I' am a black/white thinker? My posts are about the transcendence of opposites. YOU on the other hand are seated firmly on one side of a see-saw with you firmly on the Earth and the opposite side up in empty Air. I spoke of "the razor's edge" which here would be a weightless balance of weighted opposites.
I must be self-actualized to the extent that I am content with my life and experience no "hunger." I am riding the waves successfully because I am simultaneously aware of the still depths. In practice, going to work on Monday mornings is feeling ever closer to leaving work Friday afternoon. That is the best practical metaphor I can come up with at the moment that describes my subjective experience of 'Being There,' or Here.
The mammal that I am has the ability to transcend the 'natural' for the 'spiritual' - Paul's "natural man" versus his "inner man." I am a proponent of a 'transcendental ego' - a perspective which is the Conjunction of Opposites in balance. I may 'believe' that I AM this Awareness, but this Awareness 'Knows' Itself. These are the waves and the depth respectively. We are both, ego and Self.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
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The mammal that I am has the ability to transcend the 'natural' for the 'spiritual'
As there is no evidence for this I will chalk it up to your age and eccentricities. 
Maybe if I noticed something about your posts that stood out as really different and spiritual or beyond the "mere human" I might take an interest in your stance.
'I' am a black/white thinker?
Yes, you cannot admit the possibility that your stance could be incorrect while I can admit to any possibility.
I must be self-actualized to the extent that I am content with my life and experience no "hunger." I am riding the waves successfully because I am simultaneously aware of the still depths. In practice, going to work on Monday mornings is feeling ever closer to leaving work Friday afternoon. That is the best practical metaphor I can come up with at the moment that describes my subjective experience of 'Being There,' or Here.
I'm not sure what you are trying to convey here but self-actualization is something many of us do and do not connect it with the spiritual or divine something or other.
We are both, ego and Self.
Maybe you are under the impression that all we are is ego if we are not spirit.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (01/05/08 02:05 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Icelander]
#7835832 - 01/05/08 02:24 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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"Only those who have eyes like the sun can look into the sun." - Plotinus
Since you apparently see only form where I see formlessness, you are not able to 'see the forest for the trees.' It is, again, our typologies, which are quite different. I am an Introverted Intuitive...and you are not. Therefore, we see things very differently. Typologically, INTPs are only 1%-3% of the American population and I encounter what you call eccentricity fairly often (as does my Lady who is also an INTP).
I did not use the words "spiritual" or "divine" in the quote you highlighted, yet you intuited that I intended to convey "something" or "other." Let me focus on "something" or "other" because they carry less baggage. The transcendental is a receding 'horizon' of a 'sky' which encompasses everything and every particularity. It is much like Blake's transcendentalism:
"To see a world in a grain of sand, And a heaven in a wild flower Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour"
Either you see it, or you don't.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
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Since you apparently see only form where I see formlessness, you are not able to 'see the forest for the trees.
You do have a nice sized view of yourself I'll give you that. Maybe you do need an spiritual self to deal with all that ego.
I am an Introverted Intuitive...and you are not. Therefore, we see things very differently. Typologically, INTPs are only 1%-3% of the American population
More specialness for you Markos. But I'm pretty sure you don't know what I am as you seem to only see your superiority and surety that you see the forest and the trees.
Either you see it, or you don't.
Some see aliens, some see gods, some see demons and apparitions and bogymen. However they usually turn out to be delusional and their visions are self serving and self comforting.
And by the way. You may not think I see the forest for the trees but you might be mistaken. I also hold out the possibility that your view is the correct one and I don't completely write it off even though I don't see any good evidence for it. I try to keep my mind open about all this. And I try to remind myself that I don't know everything, but I suspect many things, and even when I seeming have evidence I believe that my mind is not capable of comprehending ultimate reality and could possibly make an incorrect interpretation.
"If you have many ideas you will have good ideas" - Moshe Feldenkrais
I believe the above quote to be a profound one.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (01/05/08 03:17 PM)
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Epigallo
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Icelander]
#7836296 - 01/05/08 04:17 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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I read about a study in ODE magazine where a large sample of people considered "altruists" were put in a setting where they could view a suffering person in need, and then see that person be helped by someone else. They were insulated from both people so that they could not interact with them at all.
Their neurological states were mapped while they watched the scene.
Scientists found nearly the same activity in the experiment as one shows when they are actually the "helper", feeling good about another being helped.
Doesn't that seem to take the "self" out of "enlightened self-interest"?
If you insist that that is still "self-interest" because it feels better to be compassionate than indifferent, that seems like a bizarre linguistic convention that only hinders communication.
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Epigallo]
#7836390 - 01/05/08 04:37 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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well put, bradley. let's not over-extend the logical power of "self-interest"
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Veritas


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Quote:
Awareness can slip out of its identification with the 'survival/pleasure principle' and the 'will to power' and discover a higher valence primarily as a unifying principle
This is pure conjecture. It is far more likely that the ego (self concept) undergoes remodeling over time, based upon the values and beliefs held by the SELF. The claim that awareness is somehow different and separate from what we know as ourself is baseless and indefensible.
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Veritas


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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Epigallo]
#7836851 - 01/05/08 06:47 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
bradley said: they could view a suffering person in need, and then see that person be helped by someone else.
Scientists found nearly the same activity in the experiment as one shows when they are actually the "helper", feeling good about another being helped.
Doesn't that seem to take the "self" out of "enlightened self-interest"?
Vicarious enjoyment of watching one's values enacted does not remove the "self" from enlightened self-interest. I enjoy reading the "Chicken Soup for the Soul" series of books, love watching movies or TV shows where people help others, enjoy reading articles about philanthropy and those who seek out opportunities to connect with and aid fellow humans and other animals. My enjoyment is based in a sense of shared values, of believing that what I see as important is also important to others.
Self-interest can be expressed in extremely beneficial ways, as well as in extremely detrimental ways. It all depends upon what you are interested in. 
Quote:
If you insist that that is still "self-interest" because it feels better to be compassionate than indifferent, that seems like a bizarre linguistic convention that only hinders communication.
This is not about linguistics, but about understanding that the division between so-called altruism and so-called selfishness is illusory. It's all an expression of self-interest.
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Epigallo
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Veritas]
#7837025 - 01/05/08 07:34 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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To me it seems that it's about language to the extent that people can not use the words "altruism" or "selflessness", which are useful for describing certain behaviors and outlooks, without being prescribed a lesson from certain individuals on Universe As Self!
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daytripper23
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Veritas]
#7837036 - 01/05/08 07:36 PM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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Veritas, examining the act of compassion which consequently makes the self feel good, does the feeling itself actually arise out of your sensation, or from the abstract "knowledge" that you have helped somebody? These kind of feelings come out of a largly undefined, basically meaningless level of reality.
Take faith for instance, many people feel good, even enlightened, based upon (a sometimes obviously) insubstantial supposition about reality.
Or a genuine materialist, no hope of a god, and surrounded by deterministic machines. Is this person incapable of compassion, outside of material reward? Driving down the street, a squirrel jumps out, and not regaurding what a mess it will make, for the street, or for his car, he still decides not to hit this animal.
Instinct.
Really, how much sense does it make to care for someone other than your self, for ANYbody? How much sense does it make to fall in love, or even to lust?
It does not make a grain of sense. When you get down to it, your talking non-sense. Even a completely materialistic value of beauty is utterly inexplicable.
What is compassion? To presume that all aspects of compassion are consequent of self satisfaction, presumes much of something we do not at all understand. Have you ever thought that self satisfaction is consequent, and conceivably unrelated to the actual act itself; making it an act of true, selfless compassion?
Though of course our minds arent limited to working this way, the actual turn of events goes in this same causal direction.
Edited by daytripper23 (01/05/08 07:48 PM)
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