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coberst
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Mom and dad were heroes
#7815879 - 12/31/07 02:53 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Mom and dad were heroes
I was born in 1934 during the Great Depression. Dad drove a city bus in Amarillo Texas. My family moved to a very small town in Oklahoma before my first birthday; I had four siblings at the time we moved from Texas to Oklahoma to manage a small café and hotel that was then being managed by my uncle who wished to return to farming.
During the next 15 years my family managed that café and hotel. The building and the business was owned by an absentee landlord, Mr. Ruttzel. The operation was a 24/7 job that took the total energies of all members of the family as each of us became old enough to work.
This operation allowed my parents to raise a large family in reasonably comfortable conditions throughout the depression and war years of World War II.
What is the meaning of ‘hero’? I have taken one definition from the dictionary and have modified it to represent my comprehension of this concept of ‘heroic’. Heroic is a concept meaning a “determined effort [directed to achieve good or deter evil] in the face of difficulty”. In this definition I define ‘good’ as being that which promotes human life and ‘evil’ as that which promotes human death.
I think that there are degrees of heroic action. Some heroes are greater than others depending upon the circumstances of their action. To be a hero often requires courage and often causes personal hardship.
On a scale of one to ten I would classify the following people as heroes in most people’s judgment: Mother Theresa (10) Police and firemen entering the burning buildings in 9/11 attack (8 to 10) My mom and dad (7) Men and women fighting in Iraq: our side (5 to 10) their side (?) Youngster really trying to make good grades in school (7)
The psychologist Alfred Adler said: “The supreme law [of life] is this: the sense of worth of the self shall not be allowed to be diminished.”
Heroic actions are our means for maintaining our self esteem. Without heroic action we cannot maintain our own self-esteem. Self-esteem is self-respect. We judge our self as to the degree of worthiness for respect. We rely partially upon the judgment of others but that respect from others is filtered by our own judgments to how heroic our actions are.
It appears that we must feel self-esteem or we suffer mental illness of one degree or another. I gain self-esteem by reading lots of stuff, writing about that stuff, and posting that stuff on this forum, i.e. I am a self-actualizing self-learner (6).
What do you do for self-esteem?
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7818697 - 12/31/07 11:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
coberst said: What do you do for self-esteem?
Every morning when I wake up, I look in the mirror at myself, and say ten times, "You are beautiful"....

Just kidding, I eat lots of seafood.... 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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JoseLibrado
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7818885 - 01/01/08 01:36 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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self esteem is self respect.
If respect is no different than esteem what does it mean to you to be respectable, or esteemable.
I know self respect is assuming that the definition of self worth, is arrived at a point that you believe is higher.
Ie/ self actualization is better than self demunition, it is a higher goal to acheive and is then heroic. One brings you up the other down...
However, up is only known when there is a down. to prove this try to explain to yourself, what up means without referring to another thing, such as down, or high.
Or try to understand what it means to go up, without reflecting what going up is, as opposed to going down.
PEace
-------------------- The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution. And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change. Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems. Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....
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coberst
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7819092 - 01/01/08 05:19 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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One reason that I posted this was because I wanted to introduce a word that is so very important to the sciences of psychology and psychoanalysis.
All that I have read about these two sciences indicate that what are called heroic acts are those acts that reinforce our self-esteem and with out self-esteem we are pitiful creatures.
We have many words in the language that have both a common usage and also have a technical usage. The word ‘hero' is one such word. I have been studying psychology and psychoanalysis for the last many months and these domains of knowledge use the word 'hero' in a technical manner.
One of the difficulties we always have when we try to learn a domain of knowledge that is new to us is learning the vocabulary. The OP reflects how this word is used in these sciences.
My act is heroic if I think it is and it is also heroic if others think that it is. If my act is heroic then my self-esteem grows. We are not talking about absolutes here. In some cultures if I stone to death my sister for dishonoring my family then my act is heroic.
Lack of self-esteem is one of the major causes of mental illness. This lack of self-esteem can also lead to obesity when the individual tries to find solace in food when self-esteem is not up to par.
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Icelander
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7819839 - 01/01/08 12:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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What do you do for self-esteem?
I post at the Shroomery and sometimes fantasize about winning the lottery and sticking it to all my enemies.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7819847 - 01/01/08 12:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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In some cultures if I stone to death my sister for dishonoring my family then my act is heroic.
Thanks for letting me know that the people who did this aren't mentally ill. I wouldn't have known.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7819903 - 01/01/08 12:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
What do you do for self-esteem?
I like a nice hot sauna.
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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What's with this fucking cross posting everywhere. Why would someone join just to post this garbage. Saw this same shit elsewhere on the net. I don't get the importance.
-------------------- ...or something
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Middleman

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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: eve69]
#7820662 - 01/01/08 04:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes strange, I've seen this everywhere.
NLP? Miiiiiiiind controoooool???
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7820815 - 01/01/08 05:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
coberst said: One reason that I posted this was because I wanted to introduce a word that is so very important to the sciences of psychology and psychoanalysis.
All that I have read about these two sciences indicate that what are called heroic acts are those acts that reinforce our self-esteem and with out self-esteem we are pitiful creatures.
We have many words in the language that have both a common usage and also have a technical usage. The word ‘hero' is one such word. I have been studying psychology and psychoanalysis for the last many months and these domains of knowledge use the word 'hero' in a technical manner.
One of the difficulties we always have when we try to learn a domain of knowledge that is new to us is learning the vocabulary. The OP reflects how this word is used in these sciences.
My act is heroic if I think it is and it is also heroic if others think that it is. If my act is heroic then my self-esteem grows. We are not talking about absolutes here. In some cultures if I stone to death my sister for dishonoring my family then my act is heroic.
Lack of self-esteem is one of the major causes of mental illness. This lack of self-esteem can also lead to obesity when the individual tries to find solace in food when self-esteem is not up to par.
coberst -
Experimental psychology utilizes the most rigorous scientific controls, but the application of psychology to psychotherapy, although claiming a basis in science is really grounded on various psychological theories. Psychoanalysis, based on Freud's theories, which are brilliant and sometimes true (i.e., universal patterns of behavior, not culturally bound and idiosyncratic) is far more of an art than any kind of science. Psychoanalytic interpretations of the same data will be different from analyst to analyst.
Why does someone who claims to be 74 years old have a preoccupation with self-esteem is my question (as a psychotherapist), and moreover, where does the inordinate degree of parent worship stem from? I mean, your parents were survivors and their discipline was admirable, but why equate them to 'heros,' which are the protagonists in ancient Greek mythology, sometimes semi-divine beings born of male gods and mortal females (as in the Jesus mythos). Im 20 years your junior, but I see some thoroughly unresolved Freudian, superego issues in your post which relegate the original god-like status to parents, while the offspring's (you) own ego suffers feelings of insufficiency. Have you ever been to a psychotherapist in your life, because your post is particularly poignant, especially given your age and which [Eriksonian] 'life task' a 74 year old would typically be preoccupied with?
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Love Cap
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: Middleman]
#7820831 - 01/01/08 05:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think entering that higher sphere of knowledge, that 'oneness', that certain realization that we're all fitting in with the universe and nobody else truly knows what the fuck is REALLY going on, and nobody is going to really know unless we combine all of our knowledge and share this realization, and profound moments together.
I think THAT would fix a lot of mental illnesses.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7820919 - 01/01/08 05:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
We have many words in the language that have both a common usage and also have a technical usage. The word ‘hero' is one such word. I have been studying psychology and psychoanalysis for the last many months and these domains of knowledge use the word 'hero' in a technical manner.
Really?  Why don't you tell me more about it's "technical usage"?
Quote:
Lack of self-esteem is one of the major causes of mental illness. This lack of self-esteem can also lead to obesity when the individual tries to find solace in food when self-esteem is not up to par.
Can you perhaps elaborate on this idea? For what I know, it is the lack of reason, the lack of understanding and the need to feel important (along with the need to make "heroic acts" ) which lead one to have psychological problems.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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PhanTomCat
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7821608 - 01/01/08 08:48 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
In some cultures if I stone to death my sister for dishonoring my family then my act is heroic. . Thanks for letting me know that the people who did this aren't mentally ill. I wouldn't have known.
I have heard that one cannot overdose on pot, nor get stoned enough to die.... 
Quote:
coberst said: One reason that I posted this was because I wanted to introduce a word that is so very important to the sciences of psychology and psychoanalysis. . All that I have read about these two sciences indicate that what are called heroic acts are those acts that reinforce our self-esteem and with out self-esteem we are pitiful creatures. . My act is heroic if I think it is and it is also heroic if others think that it is. If my act is heroic then my self-esteem grows.
I save my cat's life every single day by feeding it, thus making me a hero.... But for the fact that I feed him, he would die....
Get a compatable pet, it will save your self esteem, and your life.... 
Quote:
coberst said: Lack of self-esteem is one of the major causes of mental illness. This lack of self-esteem can also lead to obesity when the individual tries to find solace in food when self-esteem is not up to par.
I would say trauma and/or abuse is one of the major causes of "mental illness" - which may also lead to low self esteem (depending upon the context)....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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coberst
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Mark
Is psychology a science? It all depends upon your definition of science. If the natural sciences are the only sciences then psychology would not be a science. If the social sciences are science then psychology is a science. If the human sciences are a science then psychology is a science. Where does one go for authority for such matters? I suggest that you go to the philosophy of science for your answer.
Quickie from wiki
Philosophy of science studies the philosophical assumptions, foundations, and implications of science, including the formal sciences, natural sciences, and social sciences. In this respect, the philosophy of science is closely related to epistemology and metaphysics. Note that issues of scientific ethics are not usually considered to be part of the philosophy of science; they are studied in such fields as bioethics and science studies. In particular, the philosophy of science considers the following topics: the character and the development of concepts and terms, propositions and hypotheses, arguments and conclusions, as they function in science; the manner in which science explains natural phenomena and predicts natural occurrences; the types of reasoning that are used to arrive at scientific conclusions; the formulation, scope, and limits of scientific method; the means that should be used for determining when scientific information has adequate objective support; and the implications of scientific methods and models, along with the technology that arises from scientific knowledge for the larger society.
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coberst
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Mushroom
McMansions equals heroic action for American citizens.
"We're not selling shelter," says the president of Toll Brothers, a builder of upscale homes. "We're selling extreme-ego, look-at-me types of homes." In 2000, Toll Brothers' most popular home was 3,200 square feet; by 2005, it had grown 50 percent, to 4,800 square feet. These "McMansions" often feature marble floors, sweeping staircases, vaulted ceilings, family rooms, studies, home entertainment centers and more bedrooms than people. 'House Lust' Hits Home Article from Washington Post Jan 2, 2008
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coberst
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7822712 - 01/02/08 06:00 AM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
I would say trauma and/or abuse is one of the major causes of "mental illness" - which may also lead to low self esteem (depending upon the context)....
>^;;^<
Our standard mode of life is repression which I think might be regarded as self-abuse.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7822978 - 01/02/08 09:33 AM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Science, from the Latin, 'scientia' means knowledge, and psychology is certainly about knowledge. Yes, social science is considered to be science from those disciplines' perspectives, but when compared to physical sciences where true lawfulness rules, social sciences are more phenomenological descriptiveness. When I wrote my dissertation in human development (developmental psych), I used a 'historical narrative' approach, not an empirical, statistical approach. My dissertation was phenomenological in nature, and the discipline of phenomenology utilizes a technique which is intended to approximate 'objectivity,' just as the scientific method does.
There are however, variables which effect human behavior, the likes of which are only now beginning to be subjected to scientific scrutiny (see Rupert Sheldrake's The Sense of Being Stared At: and Other Unexplained Powers of the Human Mind). The variables in these phenomena do not have an effect on the rate of particle decay or how much carbon dioxide is produced by so much acetic acid and so much sodium bicarbonate. So my point is that psychology - the study of the psyche - is an incomplete science at best, and much more of a phenomenological inquiry. Only at a very physiological level is human behavior going to be predictable - like the high statistical probability of a person's hand recoiling from the touch of a hot skillet. Specific psychotherapeutic results of say, dream interpretation or hypnotherapy (to name two which I have experience in) are so weighted to the subjective pole of the client-therapist relationship, that to call these practices science is to be abusing the word. They may be immensely helpful to people, but it is more art than science.
Incidentally, I have studied the philosophy of science within the disciplines of both philosophy and psychology, not from a Wikipedia article which is not a reliable source academic accuracy. Perhaps a reading of Thomas S. Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions will elicit in you a welcome 'paradigm shift.'
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coberst
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Science, from the Latin, 'scientia' means knowledge, and psychology is certainly about knowledge. Yes, social science is considered to be science from those disciplines' perspectives, but when compared to physical sciences where true lawfulness rules, social sciences are more phenomenological descriptiveness. When I wrote my dissertation in human development (developmental psych), I used a 'historical narrative' approach, not an empirical, statistical approach. My dissertation was phenomenological in nature, and the discipline of phenomenology utilizes a technique which is intended to approximate 'objectivity,' just as the scientific method does.
There are however, variables which effect human behavior, the likes of which are only now beginning to be subjected to scientific scrutiny (see Rupert Sheldrake's The Sense of Being Stared At: and Other Unexplained Powers of the Human Mind). The variables in these phenomena do not have an effect on the rate of particle decay or how much carbon dioxide is produced by so much acetic acid and so much sodium bicarbonate. So my point is that psychology - the study of the psyche - is an incomplete science at best, and much more of a phenomenological inquiry. Only at a very physiological level is human behavior going to be predictable - like the high statistical probability of a person's hand recoiling from the touch of a hot skillet. Specific psychotherapeutic results of say, dream interpretation or hypnotherapy (to name two which I have experience in) are so weighted to the subjective pole of the client-therapist relationship, that to call these practices science is to be abusing the word. They may be immensely helpful to people, but it is more art than science.
Incidentally, I have studied the philosophy of science within the disciplines of both philosophy and psychology, not from a Wikipedia article which is not a reliable source academic accuracy. Perhaps a reading of Thomas S. Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions will elicit in you a welcome 'paradigm shift.'
I agree that psychology is not a normal science in Kuhn's meaning of that term. I would guess that only the natural sciences can fit the norms of normal science, i.e. they alone can have a paradigm. I suspect paradigm is far too restrictive for any of the human sciences.
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coberst
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7830998 - 01/04/08 07:59 AM (16 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quotation from “The Birth and Death of Meaning” by Ernest Becker.
“Anthony Quinn in his great role in “Requiem for a Heavyweight” earned his inner sense of self-value by constantly reminding himself and others that he was “fifth-ranking contender for the heavyweight crown”. This made him really somebody, gave him continual nourishment, allowed him to hold his head high in the shabbiest circumstances. Academic intellectuals have their own fine gradations of worth: a six-hour teaching load, with no under-graduate teaching, in an ivy-league school; a three hour teaching load, with only one undergraduate course, in an almost ivy-league school. How these balance in the scale of self-worth can cause agonizing life decisions.”
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mom and dad were heroes [Re: coberst]
#7831491 - 01/04/08 10:34 AM (16 years, 28 days ago) |
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It strikes me as sad that people identify their sense of self-worth with financial worth. And, so that people will know that they are worth something, they constantly demonstrate this by ensconcing themselves in 'name brand' neighborhoods, palatial, mansion or mini-mansion homes (depending upon how much they can pull off, if not actually afford) and designer clothes and jewelry. This has always been the case since time immemorial. Since money is also power, such people also immerse themselves in the company of other wealthy and powerful individuals, and since beautiful 'things' are always purchasable, so are beautiful people who love things and use people (versus those who love people and use things). Voila! We have a complete set of human beings who are so worshipful of form, for form's sake (not as vehicles for higher being, or compassionate action) that many are willing to kill or brave prison for the acquisition of beautiful (yet impermanent) forms.
Such is the profane person, the mundane, pedestrian individual. No matter how much money is acquired, class is never acquired long with it. New money flashes bankrolls like a Miami drug dealer, or wears expensive yet garrish clothing. Crude materialists scream "Look at me!" from their humongous gas-guzzling chrome yellow Hummers - all in the feeble attempt to impress others with identical values and identically adolescent psyches.
Money/power, social status and sex serve as the bases for much of our society's sense of self-esteem. It is transient being based on externals: money, connections and physical beauty, all of which tend to diminish in varying degrees. In lesser amounts are those whose self-esteem is based on survival skills (e.g., mountaineers) or conversely on killing (sanctioned warriors, soldiers of fortune, assassins).
Intellect can be another basis for self-aggrandizement and self-importance, which really are only as 'big' as those one is comparing oneself to. That usually does not expand outside of one's own lifespan. I mean, are there inventors today who could match the diversity of Edison? No, but then again, we are living in an age of specialization. Status may be the result of a new paradigm and subsequent discovery, but research scientists are not motivated (for the most part) by the need for fame, knowledge is the game.
Pretty much self-esteem issues, as in Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, or in Hindu chakra psychology, constellate around basic human forms of motivation, but not the higher levels of human motivation which are characterized by a reduction of, and ideally, an absence of self-importance which is the inflation of simple self-esteem. So what's it gonna be: big breasts, big muscles, big bankroll, big expert, or big asshole, as the basis of one's self-esteem? There ARE alternative roles, but they derive from less selfish forms of motivation, and those roles are weighted more to 'giving' than to 'getting.' This being a philosophy and spirituality forum, it behooves me to point to an answer in the direction of selflessness rather than selfishness as a basic philosophical stance, and to further direct the inquiry to spiritual practices which diminish self-importance in favor of self-transcendence.
- MtG
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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