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dumbfounded1600
Stranger

Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 2,624
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RR Pasteruization Manure? Not True
#7813571 - 12/30/07 01:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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When your pasteurizing in jars your substrate on the outer layer of the middle center is way hotter then 170F...which is not pasteurization temps....the glass is heating that even more....so really your not pasteurizing it at all...your coming close to sterilizing the outer core of the substrate in the jars....I find this to be not a very good method....you can do a hot water bath which can easily get it all at between 140-160F easier then this....what its doing on the outer layer is killing the beneficial bacteria!....??? Any Suggestions...I'm not putting roger rabbit down i just see this method NOW to be worse off then giving it a hot water bath
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derx
who run it



Registered: 05/29/03
Posts: 2,459
Loc: dx/dt
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hot water bath set for 175 degrees F
FTW!
-------------------- better living through chemistry OVERGROW the government!! it's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom, ok, thats what it is.
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Seventy
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Registered: 05/24/07
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Re: RR Pasteruization Manure? Not True [Re: derx]
#7813610 - 12/30/07 01:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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like..actually putting it in the bathtub?
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dumbfounded1600
Stranger

Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 2,624
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Re: RR Pasteruization Manure? Not True [Re: Seventy]
#7813623 - 12/30/07 01:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Bucket, big enough cooler, I wouldn't suggest bathtub because of too much heat loss, a big enough IKEA tub or a bucket seem to do the job
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dumbfounded1600
Stranger

Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 2,624
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I wonder what Roger Rabbits gonna say lol
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derx
who run it



Registered: 05/29/03
Posts: 2,459
Loc: dx/dt
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hot water bath = very large stockpot on top of stove.
im not sure of RR's method of pasteurization, do you have a link?
-------------------- better living through chemistry OVERGROW the government!! it's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom, ok, thats what it is.
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Seventy
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Registered: 05/24/07
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ahh I see
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shaggydogman
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Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 672
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I was experimenting with this yesterday! As I only really ever pasteurize about 1 litre (2 pints) of sub at a time for small trays this seems a nice tidy method so I thought I'd test it.
I used 2 x 1 pint jars loaded with hpoo, one with 1/4" hole in top with a meat thermometer pushed through it measuring the internal temperature. I had a candy thermometer measuring the temperature of the water in the pan.
Over the course of 3 hours of playing with it I managed to stabilize it at the following ranges.
Pan Water 87C (188F) - Internal 71C (160F) Pan Water 81C (178F) - Internal 65C (149F)
In my case I found there was pretty much always a 16C (~30F) difference between the internal temperature of the jar (centre) and the water outside it. Now I am assuming that the glass in the jar would get to pretty much the temperature of the water and the temperature of the sub would be in the range between the two.
I did use fairly cheep thermometers so it's only approximate.
I think if I shoot for the 81C pan water temp I think 149F-179F is a good range possibly lower is better? Both are above the trich death temp and below sterilization.
What would be the best range for me to aim at with a 30F difference between upper and lower?
Edited by shaggydogman (12/30/07 01:32 PM)
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dumbfounded1600
Stranger

Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 2,624
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Re: RR Pasteruization Manure? Not True [Re: shaggydogman]
#7813734 - 12/30/07 01:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Digital/Meat thermometers are pretty inaccurate...Candy thermometers are more accurate
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shaggydogman
Stranger


Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 672
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Yeah. The candy thermometer looks the part, whereas the meat thermometer is a dial type and I don't think it is as accurate.
I will put a pot of water on with both of them in to see.
-------------------- Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.
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dumbfounded1600
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Registered: 07/29/07
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Re: RR Pasteruization Manure? Not True [Re: shaggydogman]
#7813779 - 12/30/07 02:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Good Test ShaggyDogMan I like how you took 3 hours to do such a test
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Nibin
Getting there



Registered: 11/29/05
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Quote:
dumbfounded1600 said: When your pasteurizing in jars your substrate on the outer layer of the middle center is way hotter then 170F...which is not pasteurization temps....the glass is heating that even more....so really your not pasteurizing it at all...your coming close to sterilizing the outer core of the substrate in the jars....I find this to be not a very good method....you can do a hot water bath which can easily get it all at between 140-160F easier then this....what its doing on the outer layer is killing the beneficial bacteria!....??? Any Suggestions...I'm not putting roger rabbit down i just see this method NOW to be worse off then giving it a hot water bath
If you keep the water inside the pot at 170ºF, eventually it will all heat up to that temp, the outside first and if the jars aren't touching the bottom or sides of the pot how can they go over that temp? You aren't adding any more heat except that of the water.
That is the whole point of a bain marie (hot water bath). You heat water with an external heat source (stove) and keep that water at your desired temp by playing with the intensity of the heat source. Then that water is a steady, constant heat source for whatever you are cooking or in our case, pasteurizing. It will never go over the temperature that the water is at.
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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shaggydogman
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Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 672
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3 hours! I was watching tele, reading on here and popping out to the kitchen every 10 mins or so to take readings.
Right just had both thermometers in a pan of water that I brought to the boil slowly.
Between the temperatures of 50C in 90C the meat thermometer was 2C lower than the candy one. I had the meat thermometer tip balanced to the same height in the pan as the bulb of the candy termometer.
So to adjust the original readings....
Pan Water 87C (188F) - Internal 73C (163F) Pan Water 81C (178F) - Internal 67C (153F)
So my temperature range is 14C (25F).
This is in small jars (500ml Hellman's mayo jars) so I would assume that quart jars have a greater range.
I'm also thinking that even if a small amount the outside is sterilized the inside will still have good bacteria that once the sub is mixed up will colonize the sterilized sub?
-------------------- Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.
Edited by shaggydogman (12/30/07 02:26 PM)
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
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Re: RR Pasteruization Manure? Not True [Re: shaggydogman]
#7813878 - 12/30/07 02:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
When your pasteurizing in jars your substrate on the outer layer of the middle center is way hotter then 170F
Documentation?
Glass is an insulator. That's why the water in the kettle can be heated to boiling without overheating the substrate or casing material within the jar. The thermometer is stuck into the center of the jar, but if you think there's more than a ten degree temperature differential within a quart jar of wet material, you're mistaken. By following my procedure, you'll get perfect pasteurization every time. Other methods work as well. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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shaggydogman
Stranger


Registered: 04/20/07
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Re: RR Pasteruization Manure? Not True [Re: RogerRabbit]
#7813902 - 12/30/07 02:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Just to add, I was doing it differently to RR's way, I had the pan on the heat the whole time, no lid and was trying to keep the water at a constant temp so I could see what the temp inside the jar would be.
I was more commenting on pasturising in jars and the temperature difference I was seeing.
-------------------- Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.
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thedoc8
TooMuch


Registered: 05/18/07
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Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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It won't get that hot if you don't turn up the heat..?
Don't like to wash all the nut's out of my shit either.
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dumbfounded1600
Stranger

Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 2,624
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Re: RR Pasteruization Manure? Not True [Re: thedoc8]
#7814149 - 12/30/07 03:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I haven't even experimented with this yet but I just thought the glass would easily get hotter on the sides....im glad I made this thread though opened my mind a bit....thanks RR.....and hot water baths does lose a lot of nutrients in my own opinion
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blood4blood
Calmer Than You Are


Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6,029
Loc: The Valley
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Quote:
dumbfounded1600 said: I haven't even experimented with this yet but I just thought the glass would easily get hotter on the sides....im glad I made this thread though opened my mind a bit....thanks RR.....and hot water baths does lose a lot of nutrients in my own opinion
so your saying that this method doesnt work with out even trying it first?
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dumbfounded1600
Stranger

Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 2,624
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Re: RR Pasteruization Manure? Not True [Re: blood4blood]
#7814724 - 12/30/07 06:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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this was brought to my attention from a friend on IRC who told me what to say....then my gullable ass believed it....so now I know....thats why im starting to study this hobby
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran



Registered: 03/01/01
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Quote:
dumbfounded1600 said: When your pasteurizing in jars your substrate on the outer layer of the middle center is way hotter then 170F...which is not pasteurization temps....the glass is heating that even more....so really your not pasteurizing it at all...your coming close to sterilizing the outer core of the substrate in the jars
Even if this is true, the inner core will be pasturized and there are probably plenty of beneficial bacterial endospores surviving to reinoculated the "sterilized" areas. I don't see this as a problem. You could probably even pasturize one jar and use it to seed several completely sterilized jars.
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification 
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dumbfounded1600
Stranger

Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 2,624
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Re: RR Pasteruization Manure? Not True [Re: Workman]
#7817635 - 12/31/07 04:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Even if this is true, the inner core will be pasturized and there are probably plenty of beneficial bacterial endospores surviving to reinoculated the "sterilized" areas. I don't see this as a problem. You could probably even pasturize one jar and use it to seed several completely sterilized jars.
Interesting....I dunno much about that but probably wouldn't work...any suggestions people?
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