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Invisiblejohnm214
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Is there a logical divide between the concepts of personal liberty and commercial/ buisness liberty?
    #7812909 - 12/30/07 09:29 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

This has been the concept I've struggled and changed my opinion on the most throughout my life in regards to politics and the proper role of laws and government in the private sector.

Almost all here seem to find that personal liberty is a valid and pragmatic notion for government to recognize. What about the freedom to form a business and deal with other businesses or people the way you, or the business, would like?

Can/ Should the government and politicians strive for a different or similar approach towards the business, if its given that personal liberty should be a goal when enacting legislation?

Is there any reason to treat businesses differently then individuals? Is corporate personhood any less valid than individual autonomy?

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I feel this belongs in this forum, as I'm wondering what people's views are as related to government's interaction w/ persons and business. Let's not move this to Philosophy; I feel politics is a subset of philosophy, and that's what I'm targeting with this question.


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OfflineMrBump
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Re: Is there a logical divide between the concepts of personal liberty and commercial/ buisness libe [Re: johnm214]
    #7813212 - 12/30/07 11:11 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Good questions that I dont have time to think about right now.

There is a cool timeline that shows the personhood rights/powers of both citizens and corporations by the US Government (1772-1996) it's pretty interesting to read.

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/personhood/personhood_timeline.pdf


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Is there a logical divide between the concepts of personal liberty and commercial/ buisness liberty? [Re: johnm214]
    #7813245 - 12/30/07 11:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Almost all here seem to find that personal liberty is a valid and pragmatic notion for government to recognize. What about the freedom to form a business and deal with other businesses or people the way you, or the business, would like?




Just as government has no business involving itself in how you spend your leisure time (with the usual caveat that said leisure time is not filled with robbing, raping, and killing folks), so it has no business involving itself in how you transact with others in order to make your living.

Quote:

Can/ Should the government and politicians strive for a different or similar approach towards the business, if its given that personal liberty should be a goal when enacting legislation?




Similar.

Quote:

Is there any reason to treat businesses differently then individuals?




No.

Quote:

Is corporate personhood any less valid than individual autonomy?




No.





Phred


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is there a logical divide between the concepts of personal liberty and commercial/ buisness libe [Re: Phred]
    #7816628 - 12/31/07 10:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I tend to agree w/ Phred (for once).

I find it harder and harder to justify seperate rules for any segment of society. Generally, I feel you can't sepperate personal autonomy from a commerical enterprise.

Even corporations are made up of officers who should have the ability to enter into consentual realtions w/ people.

Laws that selectivly targe commercial enterprises seem hard to justify. Unless there's a meritous difference, the fact that someone does something for money should not be difference between someone who does something for perceived personal gain.


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Is there a logical divide between the concepts of personal liberty and commercial/ buisness libe [Re: johnm214]
    #7816680 - 12/31/07 11:15 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I disagree with Phred. If one examines the working class from a Tayloristic standpoint, the corporation, (here, the system), must come before the individual, for the best usage of time. This is the way it's been going for a long time, and will only get more competitive, until we are inevitably enslaved by our employers.


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Is there a logical divide between the concepts of personal liberty and commercial/ buisness liberty? [Re: johnm214]
    #7816745 - 12/31/07 11:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

major, minor, partnership, corporation, master limited partnership, LLC, trust, private business...?


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is there a logical divide between the concepts of personal liberty and commercial/ buisness libe [Re: Luddite]
    #7816794 - 12/31/07 11:56 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I purposely neglected these as i don't see a major difference, only mentioned corporations in my corporate citizenships question.


The only difference I see, is some forms of biliousness are legal entities in the eyes of the law (can sue and be sued, et cet like corporations) and some are not (like partnerships, people simply doing business under an assumed name).

Are you suggesting there is a logical reason why one of these forms should be treated differently? Even a corporation is made up of people, and has no will of its own per se. Why shouldn't the corporation have the freedom to act in the way its directors wish?

What is the moral difference between a corporate officer or a board of directors and a guy hanging a shingle outside his house and a partenrship of those same members of the board of directors?

Only the responsibility for the action is somewhat shifted to the buisness, and not the individual, in the case of the corp, but does that mean the buisness loses the moral right to self determination cuz its not a natural person, and only directed by one? While the partnership may not have rights separate from those of the owners, the corporation surely should, if it is to be treated in other respects like a person.

What exactly is your point?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Is there a logical divide between the concepts of personal liberty and commercial/ buisness libe [Re: johnm214]
    #7816839 - 12/31/07 12:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with Phred. Unless your business practices are violating another's explicitly states rights, the gov't has no business stepping in.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Is there a logical divide between the concepts of personal liberty and commercial/ buisness libe [Re: Minstrel]
    #7817435 - 12/31/07 03:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Hey Minstrel, "What is a corporation?"


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is there a logical divide between the concepts of personal liberty and commercial/ buisness libe [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7817645 - 12/31/07 04:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

that's an interesting point. Most people harp on corporations, when they seem to use it as "large buisness"

I don't see how a corporation should be treated differently than a person. If its wrong for a corp to pay 50 cents an hour, its likewise bad for any other form of buisness to do so.

I think the bigger threat is facism, where the government and corporations become aligned. In both communist countries and facist coutnries this happens.


Additionally, labor unions must have the authority to act w/out undue interference by buisness. Just as buisnesses can choose who to hire, unions can choose who to work for, who to shun, and who to strike against. In many countries you see corporations using government to surpress worker's unions, which far from promoting a free economy, perverts it to the buisnesses advantage. Only when the law treats both equally is there a chance for justice, I would think.
Government should exist to provide for the worker a means to enforce his rights by law and contract. When government enforces them (OSHA, FTC, EPA, et cet) it takes power from the people. The government that can give you everything, can take it away. The only way to fight the alignment of buisness and government, is for the government to be disinterested in both. Providing moral laws that apply to both, and enforce contracts and torts.


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