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InvisibleShroom Empire
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Is this a good idea
    #7812755 - 12/30/07 07:46 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I've been flipping my colonized brf jars over every other day.
Is this good for the mycelium or no?

They seem to be colonizing nicely though.


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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: Shroom Empire]
    #7812759 - 12/30/07 07:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Not really, fliping is something to try if your jars stall nearing ending of colinisation.

Fliping them will disturb the dry verm layer possibly allowing contams that it has cought to get to the substrate.


--------------------

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Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7812784 - 12/30/07 08:13 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I;ll be sure to stop flipping them then, I thought it was for gas exchange.


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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: Shroom Empire]
    #7812987 - 12/30/07 10:06 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

THe holes at the top of the jar are for gas exchange.

I know it's hard. But the best thing you can do for your jars is put them away, and check on them in about a week.


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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: mushbaby]
    #7812991 - 12/30/07 10:08 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Just leave them for a week, i have never flipped any of my jars, i have read lots of posts on it, and it has never really been proved that it has any positive effect


--------------------

PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek
Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub
Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek
Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek


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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7813121 - 12/30/07 10:45 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

yes it has been proved

when flipping is done right, the benefits are undeniable

but it's something to do last, as it usually triggers pinning


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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: anarchOi]
    #7813958 - 12/30/07 02:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

No it hasn't. The only benefit of flipping is basically to get the bottom of the jar off the glass, which helps that last inch of bare substrate colonize?

How on earth would flipping be a pinning trigger?


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InvisibleShroom Empire
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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: Nibin]
    #7817269 - 12/31/07 02:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Should I leave my jars upside down?


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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: Shroom Empire]
    #7817289 - 12/31/07 02:26 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Lol Yeah id like to know how flipping it over would trigger pinning myself ? Also you would think if you flipped it over on the holes, you would be getting LESS air exchange. Also If your jars are in a TiT incubator (for example)how would you be getting air exchange when their all closed up for a week+ ?


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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: DontPlay]
    #7817379 - 12/31/07 02:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Fresh air exchange is not something you want until full colonization,its the fresh air that is the pinning trigger.Before full colonization gas exchange is the issue not fresh air


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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: Blutjager]
    #7817726 - 12/31/07 04:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Blutjager said:
Fresh air exchange is not something you want until full colonization,its the fresh air that is the pinning trigger.Before full colonization gas exchange is the issue not fresh air




when you flip the jar over, it pulls in new air aka fresh air which can trigger pinning

also wouldn't you say it's a benefit for the last half to colonize?
usually they have a hard time colonizing down because the cake is too compact
i would probably argue that the last half colonizes twice as fast when flipped


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: anarchOi]
    #7818890 - 01/01/08 01:38 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

anarchOi said:
Quote:

Blutjager said:
Fresh air exchange is not something you want until full colonization,its the fresh air that is the pinning trigger.Before full colonization gas exchange is the issue not fresh air




when you flip the jar over, it pulls in new air aka fresh air which can trigger pinning

also wouldn't you say it's a benefit for the last half to colonize?
usually they have a hard time colonizing down because the cake is too compact
i would probably argue that the last half colonizes twice as fast when flipped




That tiny amount of air isn't FAE it's just gas exchange.


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Offlinemonkeybus
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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: Nibin]
    #7819467 - 01/01/08 09:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It's a good point. Plants sense gravity. (I know fungi are not plants) You flip it and it has to readjust. The question is, within the narrow confines of the cultivation method people use, does flipping have any beneficial effect? I wouldn't rule it out.


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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: monkeybus]
    #7820108 - 01/01/08 01:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

monkeybus said:
It's a good point. Plants sense gravity. (I know fungi are not plants) You flip it and it has to readjust. The question is, within the narrow confines of the cultivation method people use, does flipping have any beneficial effect? I wouldn't rule it out.




PLANTS sense gravity, that doesn't mean fungi do. And even if they do, that might affect the directions the shrooms grow in, for example, but certainly wouldn't be a pinning trigger.


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Offlinemonkeybus
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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: Nibin]
    #7820911 - 01/01/08 05:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PLANTS sense gravity, that doesn't mean fungi do. And even if they do, that might affect the directions the shrooms grow in, for example, but certainly wouldn't be a pinning trigger.




I never mentioned pinning triggers.

Quote:

does flipping have any beneficial effect?




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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: anarchOi]
    #7821084 - 01/01/08 06:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

anarchOi said:
when you flip the jar over, it pulls in new air aka fresh air which can trigger pinning




People flip their jars so that the heavier-than-air CO2 will (in theory) seep out of the holes and help the myc breathe a little better. Pinning is triggered when the substrate is fully colonized and fruiting conditions (temp, humidity, etc.) are present. Any substrate jar will pin if left fully colonized long enough, regardless if it's flipped or not.


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OfflineSubstance D
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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: FooMan]
    #7821156 - 01/01/08 06:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

was wondering if it would help ,if after jars are fully colonized your suppose to leave them for a week before birthing would it help to take the lids off to get knots before the birthing,if you a had a dry layer of fine verm on top.would it speed up things or leave me more open to contamination!


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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: Substance D]
    #7821289 - 01/01/08 07:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It would leave you open to drying your cake out. You're overthinking this bro. You don't need to wait for knots to form. Once it looks fully colonized, you can wait a few more days before birthing to make sure the jar is colonized throughout, or you can birth it then. Either way, the mushrooms won't grow until the mycelium is ready and fruiting parameters are present.


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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: FooMan]
    #7821575 - 01/01/08 08:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

FooManShroom said:
It would leave you open to drying your cake out. You're overthinking this bro. You don't need to wait for knots to form. Once it looks fully colonized, you can wait a few more days before birthing to make sure the jar is colonized throughout, or you can birth it then. Either way, the mushrooms won't grow until the mycelium is ready and fruiting parameters are present.


gotta ya ,simple is better in this hobby as i learn!


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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: FooMan]
    #7823167 - 01/02/08 10:48 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

FooManShroom said:
Quote:

anarchOi said:
when you flip the jar over, it pulls in new air aka fresh air which can trigger pinning




People flip their jars so that the heavier-than-air CO2 will (in theory) seep out of the holes and help the myc breathe a little better. Pinning is triggered when the substrate is fully colonized and fruiting conditions (temp, humidity, etc.) are present. Any substrate jar will pin if left fully colonized long enough, regardless if it's flipped or not.




i flip my jars so that the last half can colonize the usually too compacted substrate
you obviously don't know very much if you think the substrate being fully colonized is required for pinning

ok now explain to me this, you say, all you need is gas exchange and not fresh air exhange
when the c02 is released, what goes back inside the jar? it obviously doesn't just create a vacuum


Edited by anarchOi (01/02/08 10:58 AM)


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: Shroom Empire]
    #7823183 - 01/02/08 10:51 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Shroom Empire said:
I've been flipping my colonized brf jars over every other day.
Is this good for the mycelium or no?

They seem to be colonizing nicely though.




Sometimes CO2 wells up at the bottom of a jar, which suffocates the myc from colonizing quickly. So flipping will help remove some CO2 and speed colonization of the bottom.

And yes, the verm barrier will be disturbed so be sure that the top is fully colonized.


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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: anarchOi]
    #7823443 - 01/02/08 11:48 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

anarchOi said:
i flip my jars so that the last half can colonize the usually too compacted substrate
you obviously don't know very much if you think the substrate being fully colonized is required for pinning




I forget, you noobs that have only done the PF Tek and watched RR's video know EVERYTHING about growing mushrooms :rolleyes:

A substrate does need to be completely colonized before pinning. If the substrate doesn't completely colonize and it pins, it means that something was wrong with the remainder of the substrate, whether contamination or lack of nutrients/moisture. At that point it's 100% colonized as far as the myc is concerned and thus triggers pinning.

If you need to flip your jars regularly due to a "too compact substrate" you need to work on your technique.

Quote:

ok now explain to me this, you say, all you need is gas exchange and not fresh air exhange
when the c02 is released, what goes back inside the jar? it obviously doesn't just create a vacuum




Scroll up the thread, I didn't say that, but we are talking about gas exchange here. Sure, some oxygen will replace the CO2, but most don't refer to this as FAE. FAE as far as what people talk about here is the frequent exchange of air required during the fruiting stage. You want higher CO2 levels during incubation and much lower levels during fruiting. The lower CO2 levels (FAE) during the fruiting stage is another fruiting trigger.


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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: FooMan]
    #7823966 - 01/02/08 02:28 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

FooManShroom said:
Quote:

anarchOi said:
i flip my jars so that the last half can colonize the usually too compacted substrate
you obviously don't know very much if you think the substrate being fully colonized is required for pinning




I forget, you noobs that have only done the PF Tek and watched RR's video know EVERYTHING about growing mushrooms :rolleyes:

A substrate does need to be completely colonized before pinning. If the substrate doesn't completely colonize and it pins, it means that something was wrong with the remainder of the substrate, whether contamination or lack of nutrients/moisture. At that point it's 100% colonized as far as the myc is concerned and thus triggers pinning.

If you need to flip your jars regularly due to a "too compact substrate" you need to work on your technique.






Dammit Fooman you beat me to it.


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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: FooMan]
    #7831454 - 01/04/08 10:26 AM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

FooManShroom said:
Quote:

anarchOi said:
i flip my jars so that the last half can colonize the usually too compacted substrate
you obviously don't know very much if you think the substrate being fully colonized is required for pinning




I forget, you noobs that have only done the PF Tek and watched RR's video know EVERYTHING about growing mushrooms :rolleyes:

A substrate does need to be completely colonized before pinning. If the substrate doesn't completely colonize and it pins, it means that something was wrong with the remainder of the substrate, whether contamination or lack of nutrients/moisture. At that point it's 100% colonized as far as the myc is concerned and thus triggers pinning.

If you need to flip your jars regularly due to a "too compact substrate" you need to work on your technique.

Quote:

ok now explain to me this, you say, all you need is gas exchange and not fresh air exhange
when the c02 is released, what goes back inside the jar? it obviously doesn't just create a vacuum




Scroll up the thread, I didn't say that, but we are talking about gas exchange here. Sure, some oxygen will replace the CO2, but most don't refer to this as FAE. FAE as far as what people talk about here is the frequent exchange of air required during the fruiting stage. You want higher CO2 levels during incubation and much lower levels during fruiting. The lower CO2 levels (FAE) during the fruiting stage is another fruiting trigger.




wtf dude
i've done way more than the PF tek

think about what you are saying man, are you really trying to tell me that pinning CANNOT be triggered without full colonization? seriously?
because i've had MANY MANY cakes that pinned before full colonization and i had to let them grow in the jar because the last half of the jar had not colonized yet, but it finished colonizing as the mushroom grew over the next week


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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: anarchOi]
    #7831568 - 01/04/08 11:02 AM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Nibin
Don't try to play me dude, i was here giving you advice on your first cakes last month.

Quote:

Nibin said:
So, I knocked up 6 PF Cakes 8 hours ago and I can't see any growth?

Is my syringe a dud?


Sorry guys, I've been dying to post something like this for months :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Good evening everyone




Dec 06, 2007 http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7724954#7724954
"Nubs who have only ever done cakes"


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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: anarchOi]
    #7831570 - 01/04/08 11:03 AM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

I forget, you noobs that have only done the PF Tek and watched RR's video know EVERYTHING about growing mushrooms





Now, that's hardly fair to me now is it? Nowhere in any of my posts, nor anywhere in my video is there ever a suggestion that a substrate does not need to be fully colonized. It does.

Quote:

think about what you are saying man, are you really trying to tell me that pinning CANNOT be triggered without full colonization? seriously?
because i've had MANY MANY cakes that pinned before full colonization and i had to let them grow in the jar because the last half of the jar had not colonized yet, but it finished colonizing as the mushroom grew over the next week




Full colonization means the mycelium has captured the available substrate. It does NOT mean everything you put into the jar colonized. If there is a contaminant, especially bacterial, when the mycelium reaches the contaminant, it becomes a natural barrier, and it's just as big a barrier as the edge of the glass jar. When this happens, the mycelium senses it has reached the edge of the available food source, and thus pinning is triggered. In essence, your jar has reached full colonization.

Flipping pf type jars does nothing but allow a bit of space at the top, formally bottom of the jar, so that if you made the cakes improperly and packed them too tight, or left them too wet, they can finish colonizing. It has nothing to do with CO2 draining out which is a joke. Mushroom mycelium produces heat as it colonizes, and heat causes air movement. This movement rids the jar of excess CO2, whether the jar is right side up or not. It's ridiculous to think flipping a 1/2 pint jar lets the CO2 out, but it's totally unnecessary with 1 quart or 1 liter jars of grain, which are much taller, so by that reasoning, larger jars would have to be flipped-which they do not.

In addition, flipping a jar with it's only filter being dry verm is just plain silly. You cause the verm to shift around, and any contaminants that have been filtered can easily be transferred to the uncolonized portions of your cake. Make the jars up properly, not packed tight, and not too wet, and they'll fully colonize in two weeks at normal room temperature, like mine do. Make them wrong, and all the incubators and flipping in the world will hardly help.
RR


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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: RRVideo]
    #7831588 - 01/04/08 11:09 AM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Very well written post there RR
i was all angry before but now i understand..
almost.

How do mushrooms manage to grow in the wild without full colonization?


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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: anarchOi]
    #7831617 - 01/04/08 11:18 AM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

anarchOi said:

How do mushrooms manage to grow in the wild without full colonization?




They respond to environmental triggers for pinning.


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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: anarchOi]
    #7831626 - 01/04/08 11:21 AM (16 years, 28 days ago)

In the wild, the same procedures are taking place. The mycelium colonizes the available substrate and then fruits. Sometimes, the limits of available substrate are determined by the cold temperatures in the fall, thus fruiting is initiated with species such as shiitake and P nameko, etc. I've seen Hericium fruiting in the wild from the same tree for decades. Obviously, it didn't capture the whole tree the first, or even succeeding years.

Many species of mycelium are secondary decomposers, thus they can't even begin to colonize a part of the tree until some other species has finished munching that area. Thus, when the mycelium reaches that inaccessible part, full colonization is reached.
RR


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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: Fraggin]
    #7831646 - 01/04/08 11:30 AM (16 years, 28 days ago)

i just wanted it to be said
full colonization is not a requirement for mushrooms to grow
they CAN grow without full colonization, whereas it isn't optimal, it is possible.

thank you RR


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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: anarchOi]
    #7832313 - 01/04/08 03:21 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

anarchOi said:
Nibin
Don't try to play me dude, i was here giving you advice on your first cakes last month.

Quote:

Nibin said:
So, I knocked up 6 PF Cakes 8 hours ago and I can't see any growth?

Is my syringe a dud?


Sorry guys, I've been dying to post something like this for months :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Good evening everyone




Dec 06, 2007 http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7724954#7724954
"Nubs who have only ever done cakes"




That was a JOKE POST, notice the laughs? I was in a festive mood and made that post hoping to give a few people a laugh as that week we had had quite a lot of posts of people worrying the hell after not seeing any growth after 3 or 4 days.

I'm not saying I'm the most experience grower out there, but I have a few hundred cakes and a dozen monotubs under my belt since I started cultivating in 2005.

Those were not my first cakes.


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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: anarchOi]
    #7832328 - 01/04/08 03:25 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

anarchOi said:
i just wanted it to be said
full colonization is not a requirement for mushrooms to grow
they CAN grow without full colonization, whereas it isn't optimal, it is possible.

thank you RR




RR didn't say that, in fact he confirmed the opposite. Fruiting will occur when all AVAILABLE substrate is colonized. That doesn't mean all the substrate on the jar and when we say 100% colonization we mean 100% of available substrate which IDEALLY should be the whole jar, unless you didn't do things properly, making part of the substrate uncolonizeable.

When the mycelium senses that whatever substrate is left inside the jar cannot be colonized (due to contam, over wetness or another reason) it will start to fruit.

But only once it colonized 100% of what it can colonize.


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Re: Is this a good idea [Re: Nibin]
    #9827473 - 02/19/09 04:18 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

mushrooms definitely sense gravity...that's how they align their caps parallel to the ground for best spore distribution


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