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OfflineCoaster
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Ron Paul is FOR public schools
    #7812463 - 12/30/07 01:43 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i see lots of people saying he wants to do away with them, but really he wants to make them much better and richer with less money then the DOA is using.


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Offlinebhamlaxy
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Coaster]
    #7816943 - 12/31/07 12:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

This is very true. A lot of people say "He is against education and public schools!" or "he hates poor people because he wants to get rid of welfare!" When in actuality, he believes state and local governments should handle education and welfare.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: bhamlaxy]
    #7816998 - 12/31/07 12:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bhamlaxy said:
he believes state and local governments should handle education and welfare.




And where, pray tell, is the money going to come from? State and local governments are usually strapped for cash as it is.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Le_Canard]
    #7817104 - 12/31/07 01:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I believe that a majority of education spending comes from the state level anyways.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Redstorm]
    #7817176 - 12/31/07 01:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

True, but the federal government also contributes a goodly portion of it.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Le_Canard]
    #7817251 - 12/31/07 02:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

At it's highest level ever, the federal government covers 9% of public school costs.

http://www.hoover.org/research/factsonpolicy/facts/4249156.html


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Redstorm]
    #7817266 - 12/31/07 02:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I stand corrected. They do need that 9% of federal funding though. I thought they gave more. Nevertheless, it is needed as most school systems are strapped for cash.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Le_Canard]
    #7817486 - 12/31/07 03:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Bullshit. EVERY agency is strapped for cash if you listen to the true believers. Any federal involvement in schools is wealth redistribution. Any state involvement in schools is wealth redistribution. Most funding for schools comes from local property taxes. That's why Scarsdale has great schools and Mount Vernon doesn't. State and federal funding of schools is a method to take money from Scarsdale and give it to Mount Vernon. Similar characterizations can be made in federal funding in NY state and Alabama. Wealth redistribution.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7817530 - 12/31/07 03:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Any federal involvement in schools is wealth redistribution.




Well, I certainly can't dispute that. And I don't mind a little now and then. So I'll just leave it at that.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7818574 - 12/31/07 10:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Bullshit. EVERY agency is strapped for cash if you listen to the true believers. Any federal involvement in schools is wealth redistribution. Any state involvement in schools is wealth redistribution. Most funding for schools comes from local property taxes. That's why Scarsdale has great schools and Mount Vernon doesn't. State and federal funding of schools is a method to take money from Scarsdale and give it to Mount Vernon. Similar characterizations can be made in federal funding in NY state and Alabama. Wealth redistribution.




This is bad because... we wouldn't want to give any handouts to those lazy freeloading 8 year olds?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Gijith]
    #7818781 - 01/01/08 12:22 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Agreed in full.

Education is the one area where I depart far, far from libertarians. People say that the real equality in the US is the equality of opportunity, but if Jamal is sitting in his science class with 45 other dirt poor kids using 15 year old science books while Perrywinkle the Third is in a class of 10 having a video conference with the latest Nobel Prize winner, something is fucked up here.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Le_Canard]
    #7818830 - 01/01/08 01:06 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
I stand corrected. They do need that 9% of federal funding though. I thought they gave more. Nevertheless, it is needed as most school systems are strapped for cash.




No, they don't need that federal funding, and what they certainly don't need is a huge, costly, federal bureaucracy ineffectively presiding over education. Holding state schools accountable to a federal bureaucracy is unconstitutional in the first place.

If you really care about education, here's a tip - don't let the federal government take the money out of the state in the first place. That is what Ron Paul stands for. Then the schools won't need to rely on that small percentage of federal funding, and, as the center of government will be closer to the hands of the people, the government will be more capable of representing the people and their needs, and will be capable of being held more accountable as well.

The further the government is centered away from the people, the more tyranny there is. This is a natural fact - freedom and tryanny are opposing ends of the same spectrum.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7819283 - 01/01/08 08:33 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

No, they don't need that federal funding




Saying so doesn't make it true. Why don't they need the money?


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Redstorm]
    #7819944 - 01/01/08 12:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Good question.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7820004 - 01/01/08 01:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with you on the inefficient bureaucracy thing, and I certainly don't like the idea of Mike Huckabee having the right to force me to teach intelligent design in a science classroom, but I disagree on the money. I think there's something like a 50% difference in the per capita income of states like Massachusetts and Missouri. That's a bit of a gap in taxpayer revenue. I'm for redistributing whatever needs to be redistributed to help kids have an equal opportunity in schools.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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InvisibleSFsorrow
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Coaster]
    #7822114 - 01/01/08 11:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
i see lots of people saying he wants to do away with them, but really he wants to make them much better and richer with less money then the DOA is using.




Sir, how does he want to do that by eliminating the Department of Education? Please explain!


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: SFsorrow]
    #7822759 - 01/02/08 06:51 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Dept of Education is a Federal department.... just because he wants to do away with it on a federal level doesn't have anything to do with how well students will perform. He just wants things to get back to a state-run level.

I mean look how well the feds have done with our schools' The "No Child Left Behind" policy is a total sham. That crap is doing more harm than good to the education of our children.

People seem to think that just because Paul wants to do away with a federal level department, that he wants to do away with the thing that department was running which isn't true. He just wants to get rid of federal regulations on whatever the topic is.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Redstorm]
    #7822850 - 01/02/08 07:59 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Because the federal government forces them to spend much more than that 9% in making irrational and impossible demands of testing compliance with the NCLBA. Under No Child Left Behind, no matter what special needs or disability a child has, they need to score just as well as everyone else. This causes schools to waste a lot of money on people who will never pass the tests, instead of on the general population who could do so much more with the help of the money.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Gijith]
    #7822930 - 01/02/08 09:00 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
I agree with you on the inefficient bureaucracy thing, and I certainly don't like the idea of Mike Huckabee having the right to force me to teach intelligent design in a science classroom, but I disagree on the money. I think there's something like a 50% difference in the per capita income of states like Massachusetts and Missouri. That's a bit of a gap in taxpayer revenue. I'm for redistributing whatever needs to be redistributed to help kids have an equal opportunity in schools.




Equal opportunity in schools is a great intention, but I think it only makes sense to consider that giving federal funding to state schools is why there is a federal bureaucracy that seeks to hold state schools accountable to it. From what I recall regarding No Child Left Behind, doesn't it threaten to remove federal funding of schools that don't perform up to the Department of Education's expectations? :strokebeard:

I think the federal government has no authority to do this, but it is justifying it by way of funneling federal money into state schools. I'm not so sure that this is even Constitutional, but I'm not a scholar on the matter. You might be for redistributing income to poorer states, but others who are taxed might not be for doing so. There are fifty states, but only one federal government, and once you cross that line, it becomes exponentially more difficult to represent the people.

Of course, it could be argued that this is why each state puts forth representatives to the federal government to make these decisions on what states will collectively engage in, and I think that agreeing to contribute funds to the federal government to be redistributed to poorer states is something that most states would agree to...

... but what I'm realizing quite clearly in this moment, is that a federal tax, directly from the people to the federal government, is exactly how the role of the individual state governments is bypassed. Our representatives in Congress aren't worth much to their states because instead of entering into Congress with the ability to put forth state money into federal funds, they enter into Congress to fight for federal funds back.

The federal income tax is the reason why the federal government has become so expansive and malignant. When I say that these state schools do not need federal funding, it is because this money is obtained in the wrong way and is counter-productive to the needs of the state schools, and the state itself.

Disparity of wealth is a pressing concern when it comes to schools, but we don't see very many people advocating that the federal government addresses the disparity of wealth in general. The simple fact is that the top-down manner of government we have now is very detrimental to this country, and a top-up manner of government is not going to make it so that people do not have equal opportunities in public education in Arkansaw as they will in Rhode Island. Well, the idea of an equal opportunity in education is a fallacy anyways, but you know what I mean. :smirk:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
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Like being here
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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Redstorm]
    #7822964 - 01/02/08 09:21 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Agreed in full.

Education is the one area where I depart far, far from libertarians. People say that the real equality in the US is the equality of opportunity, but if Jamal is sitting in his science class with 45 other dirt poor kids using 15 year old science books while Perrywinkle the Third is in a class of 10 having a video conference with the latest Nobel Prize winner, something is fucked up here.




Same here. States redistributing tax money to underfunded schools in poor areas has proven effective. Read any of the research by Jonathon Kozol or peers and you will find that education is one of the few sectors in which throwing money at the problem is highly effective. More money means better supplies and facilities, a higher teacher to student ratio, and even more involvement from parents (worth more than gold in the area of education).


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineMisanthrope
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7823077 - 01/02/08 10:22 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

You can't have it both ways. Ether government is impossible to get right, or it comes down to the way government is done. Asserting that all federal government is ALWAYS going to be horribly inefficient, yet the state government works perfectly well, is one of the largest inconsistencies in Libertarian ideology.
It's just another excuse to justify weaseling out of taxes at the expense of the unprivileged. I can't believe people continue to fall for this kind of laissez-faire crap, as our poverty rate grows ever higher.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Misanthrope]
    #7823081 - 01/02/08 10:24 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

No it's an excuse to


(1) weasling out of taxes at the expense of lazy mother fuckers

and

(2) not have our tax dollars wasted on shit we don't want it wasted on like researching frog sperm and crap

If the underprivilaged can stop having 1/3 of their paychecks sucked out every two weeks.. maybe they won't be AS underprivilaged.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Misanthrope]
    #7823141 - 01/02/08 10:41 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Misanthrope said:
You can't have it both ways. Ether government is impossible to get right, or it comes down to the way government is done. Asserting that all federal government is ALWAYS going to be horribly inefficient, yet the state government works perfectly well, is one of the largest inconsistencies in Libertarian ideology.




No, the factor you neglect to take into consideration is that government works much more effectively when the people have more oversight over it. :imslow:

Did you know that the purpose of the government is to represent the people, not to take away the rights and liberties of people in the name of people? :shocked:

The more local government is, the more effective it is. Why? Because the problems that need addressed are local. Education? That's local.

Quote:


It's just another excuse to justify weaseling out of taxes at the expense of the unprivileged. I can't believe people continue to fall for this kind of laissez-faire crap, as our poverty rate grows ever higher.




Ahh, so you'd prefer the government takes care of you and makes all of the decisions for us. Do you need tucked in? Do you need fed? :rolleyes:

Freedom <----------------> Tyranny. Fact.

Which direction would you like to walk today? Or do you need someon to take away someone else's money in order to tell you? :smirk:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMisanthrope
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: BrAiN]
    #7823143 - 01/02/08 10:41 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Yea, those damn lazy pragnite mothers, kids, and laborers. The greatest perk is we can get rid of some of those pesky liberal intellectuals by scrapping the pale grant.
Considering Europe has higher taxes then we would ever consider implementing, yet their poverty rate is much lower, I see no empirical basis for assuming its the taxes cause poverty.
No ones after the middle/working class, thats a myth republicans thrive on.


Edited by Misanthrope (01/02/08 10:43 AM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: BrAiN]
    #7823144 - 01/02/08 10:41 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Misanthrope]
    #7823159 - 01/02/08 10:46 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Misanthrope said:
Yea, those damn lazy pragnite mothers, kids, and laborers. The greatest perk is we can get rid of some of those pesky liberal intellectuals by scrapping the pale grant.
Considering Europe has higher taxes then we would ever consider implementing, yet their poverty rate is much lower, I see no empirical basis for assuming its the taxes cause poverty.
No ones after the middle/working class, thats a myth republicans thrive on.




Let's reward people who had 18 years to work hard and get descent grades, but who decided to fail school and crank out 20 kids by the time they were 18. That's a great lesson to teach people. Don't do jack shit.... scrape by all your childhood and teenage years and do the bare minimum and society will take care of all your needs.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7823173 - 01/02/08 10:50 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Same here. States redistributing tax money to underfunded schools in poor areas has proven effective. Read any of the research by Jonathon Kozol or peers and you will find that education is one of the few sectors in which throwing money at the problem is highly effective. More money means better supplies and facilities, a higher teacher to student ratio, and even more involvement from parents (worth more than gold in the area of education).




No disagreements here. How this money is generated, however, to be redistributed, is the main cause for concern. The federal government taxing all Americans and then redistributing that money = inherent problem that will only continue to spiral out of control. State representatives entering into Congress and working out legislation to pool money together from each state to redistribute, in the interest of children from all states = Great Success!

:borat:

The federal government imposing an income tax on all Americans is their sneaky way to usurp state rights. :nonono:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: BrAiN]
    #7823181 - 01/02/08 10:51 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

BrAiN said:
Let's reward people who had 18 years to work hard and get descent grades, but who decided to fail school and crank out 20 kids by the time they were 18. That's a great lesson to teach people. Don't do jack shit.... scrape by all your childhood and teenage years and do the bare minimum and society will take care of all your needs.




To quote Ron Paul: When you subsidize something, you get more of it. :nono:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
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Like being here
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:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7823224 - 01/02/08 11:06 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Same here. States redistributing tax money to underfunded schools in poor areas has proven effective. Read any of the research by Jonathon Kozol or peers and you will find that education is one of the few sectors in which throwing money at the problem is highly effective. More money means better supplies and facilities, a higher teacher to student ratio, and even more involvement from parents (worth more than gold in the area of education).




No disagreements here. How this money is generated, however, to be redistributed, is the main cause for concern. The federal government taxing all Americans and then redistributing that money = inherent problem that will only continue to spiral out of control. State representatives entering into Congress and working out legislation to pool money together from each state to redistribute, in the interest of children from all states = Great Success!

:borat:

The federal government imposing an income tax on all Americans is their sneaky way to usurp state rights. :nonono:




I don't disagree either. The more local schools are run, the better. However when you look at the big picture of poor inner city vs. affluent suburban surrounding counties, where tax dollars go towards building freeways leading into the cities so the suburbanite leeches can have high paying jobs without committing to where they live...everything is thrown off kilter. It makes sense to organize these things on a state level. I also don't see the point of involving federal taxes, with the exception of national educational competitions, awards and grants.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: BrAiN]
    #7823232 - 01/02/08 11:08 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

BrAiN said:
Let's reward people who had 18 years to work hard and get descent grades, but who decided to fail school and crank out 20 kids by the time they were 18. That's a great lesson to teach people. Don't do jack shit.... scrape by all your childhood and teenage years and do the bare minimum and society will take care of all your needs.




Nice rant. What does it have to do with public schools?


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineMisanthrope
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: BrAiN]
    #7823236 - 01/02/08 11:09 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Typical anecdotal BS. I suppose 40% of your first two years in college (tuition only) is "all of your needs". And you MUST have been a fuck up to get the pale grant. . .where do you get this shit. Again this crowed goes against the fact that people that go to college have a much higher chance of being productive members of society, and that you need to do well in college to maintain the funds.

Quote:

Ahh, so you'd prefer the government takes care of you and makes all of the decisions for us. Do you need tucked in? Do you need fed?

Freedom <----------------> Tyranny. Fact.

Which direction would you like to walk today? Or do you need someon to take away someone else's money in order to tell you?



I never received any government money. I believe in equal opportunity, not social darwinism.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Misanthrope]
    #7823278 - 01/02/08 11:18 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Misanthrope said:
Typical anecdotal BS. I suppose 40% of your first two years in college (tuition only) is "all of your needs". And you MUST have been a fuck up to get the pale grant. . .where do you get this shit. Again this crowed goes against the fact that people that go to college have a much higher chance of being productive members of society, and that you need to do well in college to maintain the funds.

Quote:

Ahh, so you'd prefer the government takes care of you and makes all of the decisions for us. Do you need tucked in? Do you need fed?

Freedom <----------------> Tyranny. Fact.

Which direction would you like to walk today? Or do you need someon to take away someone else's money in order to tell you?



I never received any government money. I believe in equal opportunity, not social darwinism.




I believe in equal opportunity too, but welfare isn't equal opportunity, it's rewarding people who don't want to get off their ass and learn a trade or other skills than can make them more valuable.

But there is ont thing I MUST confess.

Actually I tend to play devil's advocate on some things, this post being one of them.

Personally, I actually believe in soclializing schools UP through high school. No giving school certain amount of money based on income for that county. It's one of the few things about socialism I believe in. If all men are created equal, then I think every school should receive the SAME amount of money per head .. whether you're in a rich suburb or in an inner city ghetto.

This is the best way, I think, to give equal opporunity to everyone. After that.. once you turn 18... CUT THE WELFARE and the BULLSHIT. If you're a student who took advantage of the extra opportunities given to you by the money (better books, better teachers, more extra curricular opportunities available), you'll probably become a more valuable person and make more money.

For those who were given the SAME footing as everyone else and STILL can't get their shit together... too FUCKIN BAD.. you're 18 and had the same opporunities and you blew it.. no gov't handouts for you.

It may seem weird that a Libertarian such as I actually believes in a socialist way of funding schools, but I think about it this way... THIS WAY everyone gets an equal chance at becoming successful. This way people have less excuses about bitching and whining that they weren't given the same opportunities. This would give the gov't more reason to SLASH all the welfare spending a great deal to people OVER 18 years old.

I DO believe in certain exceptions such as those for the mentally handicapped or people who had a really really rough childhood. All the money and opportunities in the world won't help that much if your dad was a crackhead and raised you with a really fucked up sense of right and wrong, but there area PLENTY of people (including my parents) we grew up in the GHETTOS of the inner city who still learned that nothing makes up for a humble, steadfast work ethic.

I do believe in some exceptions, yes, but for the most part... give these kids equal opportunities until they hit 18 and then take the billions we blow in welfare and take it away from everyone. The only welfare we sould be giving is maybe to the kids THEMSELVES of the welfare queens. Give these kids some foods stamps or whatever else their parents can't provide them with but for god's sake.. don't give the welfare queens any money themselves.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: BrAiN]
    #7823301 - 01/02/08 11:21 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

BrAiN said:
Let's reward people who had 18 years to work hard and get descent grades, but who decided to fail school and crank out 20 kids by the time they were 18. That's a great lesson to teach people. Don't do jack shit.... scrape by all your childhood and teenage years and do the bare minimum and society will take care of all your needs.




What in god's name does this have to do with education funding?


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Gijith]
    #7823312 - 01/02/08 11:23 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
Quote:

BrAiN said:
Let's reward people who had 18 years to work hard and get descent grades, but who decided to fail school and crank out 20 kids by the time they were 18. That's a great lesson to teach people. Don't do jack shit.... scrape by all your childhood and teenage years and do the bare minimum and society will take care of all your needs.




What in god's name does this have to do with education funding?




I was just replying specifically to an earlier off-topic post about welfare from Misanthrope. To quote him "Yea, those damn lazy pragnite mothers, kids, and laborers. ".... which has nothing to do with federal education funding.

Just a response. I clarified my real opinion in the above post about federal education funding.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: BrAiN]
    #7823324 - 01/02/08 11:26 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Sorry, didn't read that last one.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Gijith]
    #7823346 - 01/02/08 11:28 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

well i just posted it a second ago to be honest... take a look...

I think socializing K-12 schools to give every school the same money per head is the best way to go... this way no one has any "i didn't have the same opporunities" excuse to stick their hangs out for a welfare check AFTER they were 18.

Stick a little money into federal soclialization of schools.. save 100's of BILLIONS in welfare afterwards

Instead of the "No Child Left Behind" policy .. I call it the "No Excuses, No Bullshit" policy :wink:

That's one of the only two things I believe should be socialized. The other being universal health care.. not so much for a humanitarian sake, but because I believe giving health care to people when they're uninsured will cause premiums for EVERYONE to be less when those uninsured finally DO get health insurance... the prevention they lacked without a universal plan causing them to need more costly medical operations when they're older AND insured.

This is just my theory though... I wish there would be more research done on whether or not universal healthcare is beneficial in this way.


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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Misanthrope]
    #7823452 - 01/02/08 11:51 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Misanthrope said:
I believe in equal opportunity, not social darwinism.




Equal opportunity doesn't exist, nor could it. There only exists opportunities....


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7823513 - 01/02/08 12:10 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Misanthrope said:
I believe in equal opportunity, not social darwinism.




Equal opportunity doesn't exist, nor could it. There only exists opportunities....




You say that like its an objective truth, when in fact it is a very specifically selected worldview.


--------------------
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7823529 - 01/02/08 12:13 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

So, will every school have the same teacher? The same exact knowledge? The same exact curriculum? The same exact students, thus, the same exact discussions? The same exact physical learning environment?

:strokebeard:


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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7823541 - 01/02/08 12:16 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

I think he's right there. To say equal opportunities exist sounds absolute to me.

The fact that there aren't two single human beings out there means that we'll never have 100% equality when it comes to opportunities. There will always be some sort of factor, no matter how subconcious and miniscule, that will give one person more weight than another.


Two people go on an interview with the exact same race,religion, qualifications, shoes, suite, etc except one person has on a red tie and the other has a blue. That tie color IS going to somehow subconciously play even the slightest 0.0001% role in affecting the chance that each person has.

And that's in a perfect world.. take into consideration the fact that we all have our own prejudices, misconceptions, ways of growing up and the smallest differences between us are given even more weight.


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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7823571 - 01/02/08 12:25 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

No. In relation to schools I am much more pragmatic than that. The same textbook, chemistry lab equipment, musical instruments, afterschool programs, and teacher to student ratio are a good start. Proclaiming that equal situations don't exist and therefore equal opportunity doesn't exist is a cop-out of our social responsibility to strive for an even playing field for students. Something that we are light years away from and not doing enough about.


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but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7823587 - 01/02/08 12:30 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Well, so am I, but the notion of "equal opportunity" needs to be clearly understood for what it is, a notion. :wink:


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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7823608 - 01/02/08 12:36 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Something that we are light years away from and not doing enough about.




We never will if we allow the federal government their undue authority to attempt to control everything. The more decentralized government is, the better. Check out the thread in which I'm discussing the Civil Rights Act of 1964 with someone else, "Vote for Ron Paul PLEASE!". The federal government has expanded itself malignantly under unjust interpretations of the Commerce clause of the Constitution, thus giving itself more authority over matters that are within the authority of the individual state's. They've used similar, unjust interpretations of the Commerce clause to give itself more authority over matters that are within the authority of the individual human being, such as, for instance, the ingestion of psychadelics. :mushroom2: They've also carried their responsibility of national defense too far by drawing our borders far away on foreign soil.

This insane, Unconstitutional expansion of federal government is the reason why we aren't doing enough about education, immigration, the value of our currency, etc. There is only one candidate for president that understands this and would work to restrict the federal government with a strict interpretation of the Constitution. Ron Paul. :smile:


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7823801 - 01/02/08 01:30 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
So, will every school have the same teacher?




No.

Quote:


The same exact knowledge?




No.

Quote:


The same exact curriculum?




Not quite.

Quote:


The same exact students, thus, the same exact discussions?




No.

Quote:


The same exact physical learning environment?




And no.


Envision a system of schools, all supported under a federal voucher program, all receiving equal compensation for each child they're able to educate. This would increase equal opportunity, increase competition (and thus quality), increase the choices for parents and increase the diversity of classroom technique.

As long as some sort of rational system for assessment can be devised, this is something worth striving for.


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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Gijith]
    #7823835 - 01/02/08 01:39 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

off topic.. your sig is

"Iraq is the end of America as a superpower" - Pat Buchanan

Did he really say this?


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: BrAiN]
    #7823855 - 01/02/08 01:46 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Yes, though I'm not sure if I have it exactly verbatim.

I heard it on an episode of the McLaughlin Group that aired last year.


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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Redstorm]
    #7824469 - 01/02/08 05:26 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

No, they don't need that federal funding




Saying so doesn't make it true. Why don't they need the money?




Still waiting.


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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7825132 - 01/02/08 08:03 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
The further the government is centered away from the people, the more tyranny there is. This is a natural fact - freedom and tryanny are opposing ends of the same spectrum.




That's the key point here. Everything else is just details that can and will have problems like every other detail does. It's the direction that counts.


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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Redstorm]
    #7826344 - 01/03/08 02:41 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Still waiting.




Learn to read; I already addressed your question.


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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7826366 - 01/03/08 02:57 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

All right, I'll even humor you. :smirk:

In summary of the answers I've already provided, these state schools do not need federal spending because the costs of receiving it are more than the money is worth, and because the money itself is obtained and managed through improper, counter-productive means.

Cutting federal taxes would mean that there would be more money in each state to be put into that state's education. It would mean that the representatives of each state could enter into Congress, representing money, and form agreements as to how they could redistribute money to ensure that all Americans receive "equal opportunity" in education, instead of entering into Washington to apportion their money back to their states, all the while an inefficent, incapable, probably Unconstitutional bureaucracy sends money back into state schools while holding schools accountable to it.

It doesn't work, it isn't suspossed to be this way, and there are better alternatives. When I say they don't need that federal spending, this is why. Makes sense to me. :strokebeard:


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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7826459 - 01/03/08 05:12 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Isn't it still possible for the schools to receive federal funding without the same expensive measures of accountability?

Before NCLB, it seemed to work a bit better.


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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Redstorm]
    #7826480 - 01/03/08 05:41 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Well, I think something like NCLB naturally resulted from concerns that the federal funding that was being used was being used effectively... but I'm not a scholar on it. :wink: Undoubtedly, intended or not, it is simply another measure to take away state rights, and, subsequently, the rights of the people. :rolleyes:

I'm not saying that schools don't need funding, just that they don't need federal funding, unless that federal funding is put forth from individual states working together in Congress. Having a top-down federal government take money directly from the people, bypassing the state, and to then start putting money into the state seems inherently flawed, creating a circumstance in which someone like Bush can empower a federal bureaucracy in such a manner.


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