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OfflineMisanthrope
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7823077 - 01/02/08 10:22 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

You can't have it both ways. Ether government is impossible to get right, or it comes down to the way government is done. Asserting that all federal government is ALWAYS going to be horribly inefficient, yet the state government works perfectly well, is one of the largest inconsistencies in Libertarian ideology.
It's just another excuse to justify weaseling out of taxes at the expense of the unprivileged. I can't believe people continue to fall for this kind of laissez-faire crap, as our poverty rate grows ever higher.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Misanthrope]
    #7823081 - 01/02/08 10:24 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

No it's an excuse to


(1) weasling out of taxes at the expense of lazy mother fuckers

and

(2) not have our tax dollars wasted on shit we don't want it wasted on like researching frog sperm and crap

If the underprivilaged can stop having 1/3 of their paychecks sucked out every two weeks.. maybe they won't be AS underprivilaged.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Misanthrope]
    #7823141 - 01/02/08 10:41 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Misanthrope said:
You can't have it both ways. Ether government is impossible to get right, or it comes down to the way government is done. Asserting that all federal government is ALWAYS going to be horribly inefficient, yet the state government works perfectly well, is one of the largest inconsistencies in Libertarian ideology.




No, the factor you neglect to take into consideration is that government works much more effectively when the people have more oversight over it. :imslow:

Did you know that the purpose of the government is to represent the people, not to take away the rights and liberties of people in the name of people? :shocked:

The more local government is, the more effective it is. Why? Because the problems that need addressed are local. Education? That's local.

Quote:


It's just another excuse to justify weaseling out of taxes at the expense of the unprivileged. I can't believe people continue to fall for this kind of laissez-faire crap, as our poverty rate grows ever higher.




Ahh, so you'd prefer the government takes care of you and makes all of the decisions for us. Do you need tucked in? Do you need fed? :rolleyes:

Freedom <----------------> Tyranny. Fact.

Which direction would you like to walk today? Or do you need someon to take away someone else's money in order to tell you? :smirk:


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OfflineMisanthrope
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: BrAiN]
    #7823143 - 01/02/08 10:41 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Yea, those damn lazy pragnite mothers, kids, and laborers. The greatest perk is we can get rid of some of those pesky liberal intellectuals by scrapping the pale grant.
Considering Europe has higher taxes then we would ever consider implementing, yet their poverty rate is much lower, I see no empirical basis for assuming its the taxes cause poverty.
No ones after the middle/working class, thats a myth republicans thrive on.


Edited by Misanthrope (01/02/08 10:43 AM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: BrAiN]
    #7823144 - 01/02/08 10:41 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

:thumbup:


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Misanthrope]
    #7823159 - 01/02/08 10:46 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Misanthrope said:
Yea, those damn lazy pragnite mothers, kids, and laborers. The greatest perk is we can get rid of some of those pesky liberal intellectuals by scrapping the pale grant.
Considering Europe has higher taxes then we would ever consider implementing, yet their poverty rate is much lower, I see no empirical basis for assuming its the taxes cause poverty.
No ones after the middle/working class, thats a myth republicans thrive on.




Let's reward people who had 18 years to work hard and get descent grades, but who decided to fail school and crank out 20 kids by the time they were 18. That's a great lesson to teach people. Don't do jack shit.... scrape by all your childhood and teenage years and do the bare minimum and society will take care of all your needs.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7823173 - 01/02/08 10:50 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Same here. States redistributing tax money to underfunded schools in poor areas has proven effective. Read any of the research by Jonathon Kozol or peers and you will find that education is one of the few sectors in which throwing money at the problem is highly effective. More money means better supplies and facilities, a higher teacher to student ratio, and even more involvement from parents (worth more than gold in the area of education).




No disagreements here. How this money is generated, however, to be redistributed, is the main cause for concern. The federal government taxing all Americans and then redistributing that money = inherent problem that will only continue to spiral out of control. State representatives entering into Congress and working out legislation to pool money together from each state to redistribute, in the interest of children from all states = Great Success!

:borat:

The federal government imposing an income tax on all Americans is their sneaky way to usurp state rights. :nonono:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: BrAiN]
    #7823181 - 01/02/08 10:51 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

BrAiN said:
Let's reward people who had 18 years to work hard and get descent grades, but who decided to fail school and crank out 20 kids by the time they were 18. That's a great lesson to teach people. Don't do jack shit.... scrape by all your childhood and teenage years and do the bare minimum and society will take care of all your needs.




To quote Ron Paul: When you subsidize something, you get more of it. :nono:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
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:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7823224 - 01/02/08 11:06 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Same here. States redistributing tax money to underfunded schools in poor areas has proven effective. Read any of the research by Jonathon Kozol or peers and you will find that education is one of the few sectors in which throwing money at the problem is highly effective. More money means better supplies and facilities, a higher teacher to student ratio, and even more involvement from parents (worth more than gold in the area of education).




No disagreements here. How this money is generated, however, to be redistributed, is the main cause for concern. The federal government taxing all Americans and then redistributing that money = inherent problem that will only continue to spiral out of control. State representatives entering into Congress and working out legislation to pool money together from each state to redistribute, in the interest of children from all states = Great Success!

:borat:

The federal government imposing an income tax on all Americans is their sneaky way to usurp state rights. :nonono:




I don't disagree either. The more local schools are run, the better. However when you look at the big picture of poor inner city vs. affluent suburban surrounding counties, where tax dollars go towards building freeways leading into the cities so the suburbanite leeches can have high paying jobs without committing to where they live...everything is thrown off kilter. It makes sense to organize these things on a state level. I also don't see the point of involving federal taxes, with the exception of national educational competitions, awards and grants.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: BrAiN]
    #7823232 - 01/02/08 11:08 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

BrAiN said:
Let's reward people who had 18 years to work hard and get descent grades, but who decided to fail school and crank out 20 kids by the time they were 18. That's a great lesson to teach people. Don't do jack shit.... scrape by all your childhood and teenage years and do the bare minimum and society will take care of all your needs.




Nice rant. What does it have to do with public schools?


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineMisanthrope
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: BrAiN]
    #7823236 - 01/02/08 11:09 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Typical anecdotal BS. I suppose 40% of your first two years in college (tuition only) is "all of your needs". And you MUST have been a fuck up to get the pale grant. . .where do you get this shit. Again this crowed goes against the fact that people that go to college have a much higher chance of being productive members of society, and that you need to do well in college to maintain the funds.

Quote:

Ahh, so you'd prefer the government takes care of you and makes all of the decisions for us. Do you need tucked in? Do you need fed?

Freedom <----------------> Tyranny. Fact.

Which direction would you like to walk today? Or do you need someon to take away someone else's money in order to tell you?



I never received any government money. I believe in equal opportunity, not social darwinism.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Misanthrope]
    #7823278 - 01/02/08 11:18 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Misanthrope said:
Typical anecdotal BS. I suppose 40% of your first two years in college (tuition only) is "all of your needs". And you MUST have been a fuck up to get the pale grant. . .where do you get this shit. Again this crowed goes against the fact that people that go to college have a much higher chance of being productive members of society, and that you need to do well in college to maintain the funds.

Quote:

Ahh, so you'd prefer the government takes care of you and makes all of the decisions for us. Do you need tucked in? Do you need fed?

Freedom <----------------> Tyranny. Fact.

Which direction would you like to walk today? Or do you need someon to take away someone else's money in order to tell you?



I never received any government money. I believe in equal opportunity, not social darwinism.




I believe in equal opportunity too, but welfare isn't equal opportunity, it's rewarding people who don't want to get off their ass and learn a trade or other skills than can make them more valuable.

But there is ont thing I MUST confess.

Actually I tend to play devil's advocate on some things, this post being one of them.

Personally, I actually believe in soclializing schools UP through high school. No giving school certain amount of money based on income for that county. It's one of the few things about socialism I believe in. If all men are created equal, then I think every school should receive the SAME amount of money per head .. whether you're in a rich suburb or in an inner city ghetto.

This is the best way, I think, to give equal opporunity to everyone. After that.. once you turn 18... CUT THE WELFARE and the BULLSHIT. If you're a student who took advantage of the extra opportunities given to you by the money (better books, better teachers, more extra curricular opportunities available), you'll probably become a more valuable person and make more money.

For those who were given the SAME footing as everyone else and STILL can't get their shit together... too FUCKIN BAD.. you're 18 and had the same opporunities and you blew it.. no gov't handouts for you.

It may seem weird that a Libertarian such as I actually believes in a socialist way of funding schools, but I think about it this way... THIS WAY everyone gets an equal chance at becoming successful. This way people have less excuses about bitching and whining that they weren't given the same opportunities. This would give the gov't more reason to SLASH all the welfare spending a great deal to people OVER 18 years old.

I DO believe in certain exceptions such as those for the mentally handicapped or people who had a really really rough childhood. All the money and opportunities in the world won't help that much if your dad was a crackhead and raised you with a really fucked up sense of right and wrong, but there area PLENTY of people (including my parents) we grew up in the GHETTOS of the inner city who still learned that nothing makes up for a humble, steadfast work ethic.

I do believe in some exceptions, yes, but for the most part... give these kids equal opportunities until they hit 18 and then take the billions we blow in welfare and take it away from everyone. The only welfare we sould be giving is maybe to the kids THEMSELVES of the welfare queens. Give these kids some foods stamps or whatever else their parents can't provide them with but for god's sake.. don't give the welfare queens any money themselves.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: BrAiN]
    #7823301 - 01/02/08 11:21 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

BrAiN said:
Let's reward people who had 18 years to work hard and get descent grades, but who decided to fail school and crank out 20 kids by the time they were 18. That's a great lesson to teach people. Don't do jack shit.... scrape by all your childhood and teenage years and do the bare minimum and society will take care of all your needs.




What in god's name does this have to do with education funding?


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Gijith]
    #7823312 - 01/02/08 11:23 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
Quote:

BrAiN said:
Let's reward people who had 18 years to work hard and get descent grades, but who decided to fail school and crank out 20 kids by the time they were 18. That's a great lesson to teach people. Don't do jack shit.... scrape by all your childhood and teenage years and do the bare minimum and society will take care of all your needs.




What in god's name does this have to do with education funding?




I was just replying specifically to an earlier off-topic post about welfare from Misanthrope. To quote him "Yea, those damn lazy pragnite mothers, kids, and laborers. ".... which has nothing to do with federal education funding.

Just a response. I clarified my real opinion in the above post about federal education funding.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: BrAiN]
    #7823324 - 01/02/08 11:26 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Sorry, didn't read that last one.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Gijith]
    #7823346 - 01/02/08 11:28 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

well i just posted it a second ago to be honest... take a look...

I think socializing K-12 schools to give every school the same money per head is the best way to go... this way no one has any "i didn't have the same opporunities" excuse to stick their hangs out for a welfare check AFTER they were 18.

Stick a little money into federal soclialization of schools.. save 100's of BILLIONS in welfare afterwards

Instead of the "No Child Left Behind" policy .. I call it the "No Excuses, No Bullshit" policy :wink:

That's one of the only two things I believe should be socialized. The other being universal health care.. not so much for a humanitarian sake, but because I believe giving health care to people when they're uninsured will cause premiums for EVERYONE to be less when those uninsured finally DO get health insurance... the prevention they lacked without a universal plan causing them to need more costly medical operations when they're older AND insured.

This is just my theory though... I wish there would be more research done on whether or not universal healthcare is beneficial in this way.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: Misanthrope]
    #7823452 - 01/02/08 11:51 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Misanthrope said:
I believe in equal opportunity, not social darwinism.




Equal opportunity doesn't exist, nor could it. There only exists opportunities....


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
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Like being here
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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7823513 - 01/02/08 12:10 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Misanthrope said:
I believe in equal opportunity, not social darwinism.




Equal opportunity doesn't exist, nor could it. There only exists opportunities....




You say that like its an objective truth, when in fact it is a very specifically selected worldview.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7823529 - 01/02/08 12:13 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

So, will every school have the same teacher? The same exact knowledge? The same exact curriculum? The same exact students, thus, the same exact discussions? The same exact physical learning environment?

:strokebeard:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Ron Paul is FOR public schools [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7823541 - 01/02/08 12:16 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

I think he's right there. To say equal opportunities exist sounds absolute to me.

The fact that there aren't two single human beings out there means that we'll never have 100% equality when it comes to opportunities. There will always be some sort of factor, no matter how subconcious and miniscule, that will give one person more weight than another.


Two people go on an interview with the exact same race,religion, qualifications, shoes, suite, etc except one person has on a red tie and the other has a blue. That tie color IS going to somehow subconciously play even the slightest 0.0001% role in affecting the chance that each person has.

And that's in a perfect world.. take into consideration the fact that we all have our own prejudices, misconceptions, ways of growing up and the smallest differences between us are given even more weight.


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