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InvisibleDephect
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Whats that smell?
    #7805841 - 12/27/07 10:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Well I inoculated my 3 quart BRF/Verm Substrate jars on Dec 5th.. Its now Dec 27th and they havnt colonized and its like the verm shrank inside the jar.. But whats this? There is this rank smell that is either rotten BRF or a contam.. Like its horrible.. Do you know what it is?
Suggestions? I should just toss them huh..


Edited by Dephect (12/27/07 10:38 PM)


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Invisiblemusher_420
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: Dephect]
    #7805878 - 12/27/07 10:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yup, toss em. The smell would suggest bacterial contamination. With pf jars the verm filter layer tends to get wet and becomes ineffective at filtering bacteria. Of course it could have come from the syringe you used or perhaps the jars were never sterilized properly in the first place. Follow the PF tek to the letter and try again.


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InvisibleDephect
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: musher_420]
    #7805919 - 12/27/07 10:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks.. I followed the PF tek but I guess something went wrong..


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Invisiblederx
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: Dephect]
    #7806120 - 12/27/07 11:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

fermenting smell = bacteria


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: Dephect]
    #7806135 - 12/27/07 11:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Try and find out what you did wrong so it doesn't happen again.

How did you sterilize the pf cakes? Boil or pressure cooker?

Did you let them cool long enough?

Where did you get your spores from?

Did you do any kind of modifications to the pf tek apart from the size of the jars (i.e. change ratios of substrate etc)?

Did you incubate (not always a good thing)?


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InvisibleDephect
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: Nibin]
    #7806151 - 12/27/07 11:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I boiled them for a hour and a half

I let them cool for about a hour then I inoculated 3 pint PF Tek Jars.. No mods.. 1/2 Verm 1/4 water 1/4 BRF

The Golden Teacher spores came from SporeWorks

I Incubate my jars but I think I might have accidently left them on 90 degrees for a day or two until I realized how hot it was..


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: Dephect]
    #7806201 - 12/28/07 12:06 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Two problems I see.

As quart jars are bigger than 1/2 pint, boil for a bit longer, so the center of the jars gets a full 90 minutes at max temp. I'd say make it 100 or 110 minutes instead of 90.

Second, incubation. So many people, especially people new to this, have to toss jars because they insist on incubating. If you hadn't used an incubator you would have had more money in your pocket and maybe some colonizing jars.

So maybe it takes them a bit more to grow, but incubation gives you the extra problems of something going wrong and the also increased rate of contaminant growth.


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Invisiblederx
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: Nibin]
    #7806375 - 12/28/07 01:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Nibin said:
Second, incubation. So many people, especially people new to this, have to toss jars because they insist on incubating. If you hadn't used an incubator you would have had more money in your pocket and maybe some colonizing jars.

So maybe it takes them a bit more to grow, but incubation gives you the extra problems of something going wrong and the also increased rate of contaminant growth.




:thumbdown:

proper incubation is not a reason for contamination.


--------------------
better living through chemistry

OVERGROW the government!!

it's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom, ok, thats what it is.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: derx]
    #7806618 - 12/28/07 05:16 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Increased temperature will lead to increased rate of contamination. That's a fact. It's also the reason I recommend colonization at normal room temperature, or at most up to about 81F. 90F is definitely too hot and will encourage bacterial blooms, as has been seen countless times, including right here in this thread.
RR


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OfflineBaloneyNight
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7806645 - 12/28/07 06:01 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Bury the contaminated cakes into an outdoor pile of compost or some other mixture, you may get a surprise of a few good mushrooms from it.


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Invisibledeucedbi9
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: Dephect]
    #7806647 - 12/28/07 06:06 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Dephect said:
Thanks.. I followed the PF tek but I guess something went wrong..




the PF tek normally suggests 1/2 pint jars, rather than quarts, and leaving the jars to cool overnight before inoculating them, not the ~1 hour you gave them.

good luck with your next grow.


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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: deucedbi9]
    #7806955 - 12/28/07 09:47 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

you guys don't make any sense..

if the contams weren't in the jar, then incubating shouldn't be a problem
the idea of this hobby, is to get the contams out of the jar before you inoculate (aka PC'ing)

seriously, how can you blame incubation for contams? that is so proposterous
are you trying to say if i have a completely sterilized cake and i put it in my incubator that it's going to all of sudden bloom into a bacterial contamination?

the problem is either in sterilization and/or inoculation. there is absolutely no way you can attribute a contam simply to the fact that it was incubated

as it's almost winter for most of shoomerites
room temp is ridiculous
it reaches as low a 50 some nights

i don't even let my pet sugar glider go unincubated xD


basically my point is;
bacteria, trich, cobweb, mycelium, etc etc etc
will ALL colonize quite well at room temp
(try leaving ANY kind of food on your kitchen counter for a week)

incubating them DOES speed up the process yes
but it doesn't make much happen that wasn't going to happen anyway
it just saves you time.


Edited by anarchOi (12/28/07 09:56 AM)


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InvisibleDephect
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7807132 - 12/28/07 11:11 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Okay so my next step:
Im going to order 2 1/2 Gallon Rye Grain Spawn jars from MycoPath and keep one for the B+ I just ordered and inoculate the other one with the rest of the GT that I have and colonize them at room temperature
I was way to impatient and tried to speed up the process..

Its winter and there is a foot of snow outside.. But I will save the cakes and bury them and see what happens just for fun..

But man do they smell..

Thanks everyone for your help.. I hope to have better luck!

Oh and anarch I did read somewhere that increasing the temp in your jars for your mycellum is increasing the temp for any possible bacteria in the jar thus giving them a perfect living condition to thrive in..


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: anarchOi]
    #7807502 - 12/28/07 01:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

anarchOi said:
you guys don't make any sense..

if the contams weren't in the jar, then incubating shouldn't be a problem
the idea of this hobby, is to get the contams out of the jar before you inoculate (aka PC'ing)

seriously, how can you blame incubation for contams? that is so proposterous
are you trying to say if i have a completely sterilized cake and i put it in my incubator that it's going to all of sudden bloom into a bacterial contamination?

the problem is either in sterilization and/or inoculation. there is absolutely no way you can attribute a contam simply to the fact that it was incubated

as it's almost winter for most of shoomerites
room temp is ridiculous
it reaches as low a 50 some nights

i don't even let my pet sugar glider go unincubated xD


basically my point is;
bacteria, trich, cobweb, mycelium, etc etc etc
will ALL colonize quite well at room temp
(try leaving ANY kind of food on your kitchen counter for a week)

incubating them DOES speed up the process yes
but it doesn't make much happen that wasn't going to happen anyway
it just saves you time.




First of all you have to remember that while your substrate may be sterile (and possibly not, many times a jar won't be 100% sterile just so depleted of contaminant spores that they cannot compete with the inoculated mycelium) there are few syringes and even fewer prints that are 100% contaminant free. They all contain very very small amounts of contaminant spores.

This isn't a problem as there are so many cube spores for each contaminant spore that the contaminant will be overwhelmed and not prosper.

The problem with incubation is that, while it speeds up cube mycelium growth a lot, it speeds up contaminant mycelium even more and bacterial growth immensely more. So, while at lower temps, the growth rates might have been similar and the contaminants would have ended up dead, at higher temps the contams are given a kick start and can end up taking over, hence the increased rate of failure with incubation.


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InvisibleDephect
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: Nibin]
    #7815385 - 12/30/07 10:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Okay.. So this is kind of off topic but say you created a account with a Shroomery vendor under the wrong email and did not realize it.. Mycopath to be exact.. and say you order a few items that you really want and realize at the last minute your email is wrong and you dont get a email telling you that you bought them but your order is still processed..

Oh man guys what should I do?

All the shipping info was right do you think I just have to wait for it without knowing where it is?


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Offlinegreystealth
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: anarchOi]
    #7815588 - 12/30/07 11:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

anarchOi said:
you guys don't make any sense..

if the contams weren't in the jar, then incubating shouldn't be a problem
the idea of this hobby, is to get the contams out of the jar before you inoculate (aka PC'ing)

seriously, how can you blame incubation for contams? that is so proposterous
are you trying to say if i have a completely sterilized cake and i put it in my incubator that it's going to all of sudden bloom into a bacterial contamination?

the problem is either in sterilization and/or inoculation. there is absolutely no way you can attribute a contam simply to the fact that it was incubated

as it's almost winter for most of shoomerites
room temp is ridiculous
it reaches as low a 50 some nights

i don't even let my pet sugar glider go unincubated xD


basically my point is;
bacteria, trich, cobweb, mycelium, etc etc etc
will ALL colonize quite well at room temp
(try leaving ANY kind of food on your kitchen counter for a week)

incubating them DOES speed up the process yes
but it doesn't make much happen that wasn't going to happen anyway
it just saves you time.




I can see where you're coming from, but I think people who punch 2-4 inoculation holes in their jars are prone to risk in an unsanitary incubator. My incubator isn't the most sanitary, but I have 2 layers of defense: Dry vermiculite barrier, and a coffee filter that is rubberbanded.


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InvisibleDephect
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: greystealth]
    #7815622 - 12/31/07 12:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Welll that could be a factor because I did get my styrofoam cooler from a dusty garage on top of a pile of junk..

Maybe I should clean it out.. But I put a shirt and a heat blanket underneath the jars..

I dont know Im trying again though so Ill keep peeps updated or just start a grow log when stuff comes around..


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Offlinegreystealth
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: Dephect]
    #7815632 - 12/31/07 12:22 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Dephect said:
Welll that could be a factor because I did get my styrofoam cooler from a dusty garage on top of a pile of junk..

Maybe I should clean it out.. But I put a shirt and a heat blanket underneath the jars..

I dont know Im trying again though so Ill keep peeps updated or just start a grow log when stuff comes around..




dusty garage hunh, that sounds real unsanitary for an incubation chamber- think that might be your problem.

Best/easiest way to clean that out would be to wipe it down with a couple of Clorox disinfectant wipes(inside and outside).

Then spray lysol/Oust disinfectant throughout. That should make it pretty sterile.


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InvisibleDephect
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: greystealth]
    #7815640 - 12/31/07 12:28 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Its in my room.. I found it in the garage and brought it home.. Plus I had the jars the way they are supposed to be made with rubber bands double wrapped..

By the way I took a big Yuban coffee tin and put some soil in it and burried the contaminated cake.. The idea was mentioned by BaloneyNight... I watered and now its under the heat lamp right now..
Colorado is cold brrrrr!


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Offlinegreystealth
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: Dephect]
    #7815873 - 12/31/07 02:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

and I thought California was bad! Can't imagine Colorado


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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: greystealth]
    #7816038 - 12/31/07 06:06 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

If you only waited an hour before inoculating, the temps inside the jar could have been way above the thermal deathpoint of spores.

Most likely your spores have died. And the high incubation temp has helped the bacteria.

Nibin is right, even when pressure cooking u cant guarentee complete sterility. There will always be a few endospores that survive. What we are aiming to do is give the mycelium the best chance at surviving against other organisms that may have survived. Myc growth starts to slow down above around 83F ambient temperature.

Even whe we pressure cook, there just might be that 1 or 2 that make it.


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7816060 - 12/31/07 06:26 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

veda_sticks said:
If you only waited an hour before inoculating, the temps inside the jar could have been way above the thermal deathpoint of spores.

Most likely your spores have died. And the high incubation temp has helped the bacteria.

Nibin is right, even when pressure cooking u cant guarentee complete sterility. There will always be a few endospores that survive. What we are aiming to do is give the mycelium the best chance at surviving against other organisms that may have survived. Myc growth starts to slow down above around 83F ambient temperature.

Even whe we pressure cook, there just might be that 1 or 2 that make it.




DITTO!

1 hour wait is not enuf. You should wait @ least 10-12 hours to make sure the center of your jars are cool enuf to inoculate-especially quarts. You might have pulled it off with 1/2 pints due to their size and the small amount of substrate, but not quarts-I wait overnight(10-24 hours). Patience is the key to success in cultivation.

My two cents

Doc


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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: doc34]
    #7816889 - 12/31/07 12:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

your incubators cleanliness shouldn't even be an issue

you don't innoc in your incubator
and your jars are supposed to be sealed except for filtered air exchanges
maybe i'm crazy but i still use tyvek, duct tape for the innoc holes and then tinfoil (in the instance of a cake, all of that along with a verm barrier) i've never had a cake contam in my incubator, and the rye seed that contam'd was expected after a PC problem
none of the contams ever spread from jar to jar
so i'm guessing it'd be pretty hard for contams to get in OR out of my jars without error of my own

how much sense does it make to do away with things that work well just because people fail to do it right?
i.e not incubating because you can't inoculate with contaminating


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Edited by anarchOi (12/31/07 12:24 PM)


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InvisibleDephect
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: anarchOi]
    #7816935 - 12/31/07 12:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

actually the heat of the jar should be no problem... in my LSD haze from christmas I remember that my syrienge came a day after i boiled my jars and i knocked them up the day after..

but i do need to work on being sterile, getting a PC and not overheating my jars which is what i think killed the mycellum that was growing in there and gave climate to a bacteria because those jars have by far the worst smell i have ever breathed in.. i cant even stand it without gagging..

there was white stuff, mycellum i think growing in the jar before it died.. thanks for the input everyone my Rye Grain jar is on the way!


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: Dephect]
    #7816977 - 12/31/07 12:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Dephect said:
Okay.. So this is kind of off topic but say you created a account with a Shroomery vendor under the wrong email and did not realize it.. Mycopath to be exact.. and say you order a few items that you really want and realize at the last minute your email is wrong and you dont get a email telling you that you bought them but your order is still processed..

Oh man guys what should I do?

All the shipping info was right do you think I just have to wait for it without knowing where it is?




Email them with the order info and shipping address and tell them the email address was wrong.


--------------------
Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy


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InvisibleDephect
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Re: Whats that smell? [Re: Nibin]
    #7817017 - 12/31/07 01:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I called the number today.. He said he couldnt change my email on the order but he would forward a copy of the order to my correct email..
Man I love MycoPath and their wonderful customer service..
Thanks Graham!:thumbup:


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