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dr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
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#7798338 - 12/25/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Droz
Love of Life



Registered: 10/15/00
Posts: 2,746
Loc: Floorida
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: dr_gonz]
#7798354 - 12/25/07 01:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Good Point, with power comes great responsibility.
Those who have power turn currupt do to power.
Seeing being believing in the power struggle.
You have a point though maybe one day soon we will have peace on earth and good will towards man. I'm thinking we build a better planet and start spending money on space travel. Before our planet goes extinct. Say before the sun dies off, or before some other catastraphic event.
Start by filling yourself with love and light and then spread it to others. Be apart of this, spread love and teach those to make love not war.
One day I will have my dream... One day..
Peace, Droz
-------------------- Evolution of Time.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: dr_gonz]
#7798356 - 12/25/07 01:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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because humans are barely out of the jungle, we have a long way to go. to a higher intelligence species, we are barely above the dog level
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dr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
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. [Re: Droz]
#7798357 - 12/25/07 01:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: dr_gonz]
#7798381 - 12/25/07 01:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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whenever we finally figure something out we always slap our foreheads and say "of course! it's so fucking SIMPLE!"
so why do we have to try so many methods or go at a problem from so many directions to get to the answer. maybe it's because the answer isn't there until all those paths/methods have been connected or something like that.. i think of humanity as a brain, constantly gaining new neural connections which emerge as "bonuses" in our reality.
when i look at a dog, i try and imagine all the struggling and redundancy before he reaches the intelligence of a human being.. i think, there are sooooo many things that the dog isn't aware of that he needs to be before he can even reach the most simplest things we take for granted. but we can't just hand the dog knowledge, it seems they have to experience and learn for themselves
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daytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7798715 - 12/25/07 03:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think its more fundamental than that. Theoretically, I think we were evolved enough 2000 years ago to live in peace.
But we dont. From my understanding, we act this way for the same reason that so many people are interested in shitty art and music.
materiality, or artistic substantiality tends to overcome abstraction, regaurdless of quality.
Sensationalism.
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Overclock22
Here, There andBack Again



Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 208
Loc: NY
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: dr_gonz]
#7799062 - 12/25/07 07:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said: I'm trying to really get a grasp on why people chose to fight and kill rather than work together towards a better planet?
Its hard to fight those who have guns with hugs
-------------------- He did not laugh as his eyes stopped in awareness of the earth around him. His face was like a law of nature-a thing one could not question, alter or implore. It had high cheekbones over gaunt, hollow cheeks; gray eyes, cold and steady; a contemptuous mouth, shut tight, the mouth of an executioner or a saint. If you wake up at a different time in a different place, can you wake up a different person? Cf. A.C. Doyle "I'll rise above this, you can't keep me down, for I am Divine, and I know it all too well."
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Anarleaf
Teotihualto



Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 156
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: dr_gonz]
#7799080 - 12/25/07 07:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Look at the reason why people fight. Some do it for a cause such as freedoms or oppression, some for more land or resources. What it all lies in is dominance and power.
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freddurgan
Techgnostic



Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 3,648
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: Anarleaf]
#7799144 - 12/25/07 07:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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We fight because it's impossible to please everyone with one set of rules. There is NO one right way to live. We pretend like there is and try to get everyone to live like that and it's silly. 6.5 billion people is a LOT of people. We're never going to stop fighting.
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Anarleaf
Teotihualto



Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 156
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: freddurgan]
#7799169 - 12/25/07 07:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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This is very true, and you don't even have to go to another country to see this. People have their own vision of a utopia.
I used to believe that everyone would be satisfied if they were allowed to do whatever, as long as it did not affect anyone else. You still see how people are against someones lifestyle choices, and would prefer to get rid of what they don't like.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom



Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compassion? [Re: dr_gonz]
#7799224 - 12/25/07 08:07 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sadly, war has become an artificial concept for most nations - that is, if it has ever been altruistic in the first place. Most governments in the world today (at least those that are significantly influential regionally or globally) will have no reservations about using military force when it can be safely estimated as uncostly and benevolent to national interests. Wars are also almost always a conjugation of the modern nation-state, and where they are not fighting other state entities, they are genocidally trying to crush insurrections, usually brought upon by oppression in the first place, or more recently, pointless ethnic or sectarian strife. The post-Cold war continuation of NATO, the European Union and regional economic integration elsewhere are positive developments though in light of the shocking bloodshed of the 20th century. The democratic peace experiment has been a success in Europe for the most part, but for such integration to work in the developing world, the very standard of living for the impoverished everywhere must change.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: dr_gonz]
#7799240 - 12/25/07 08:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm trying to really get a grasp on why people chose to fight and kill rather than work together towards a better planet?
The reason is simple: mysticism/religion.
It's at the bottom of nearly all human conflicts. When you have 100% certainty that the land you're fighting over was exclusively given to you by God, you become willing to kill and die for it.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: Diploid]
#7799307 - 12/25/07 08:48 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think it's the other way around: god is used as an excuse for people to fight for lands, wealth & fame. And this comes from fear, the need to have attention and to have their "qualities" acknowledged. It's all emotional wanking
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fushock

Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 428
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: dr_gonz]
#7799358 - 12/25/07 09:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
I'm trying to really get a grasp on why people chose to fight and kill rather than work together towards a better planet?
Because people have different ideas of a better planet. Because people have to be able to agree to work together. Because being evil in this world is like pissing in the pool; its easy for one person to do because they think its diluted by inflation. Unfortunately, so many people are pissing in the pool right now that its like swimming in a toilet.
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WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 5,713
Loc: Nacada
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7799367 - 12/25/07 09:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Cultures grow. Growth leads to change, and change to disagreements (be it internally or externally). Given that the Earth yields limited resources (solar energy is necessary for any chance of peace at this point, imo), it isn't hard to see why people fight over things. Sure, you can share.. but will people ever stop skimming that little bit extra for themselves? A trucker named Sam told me once, 'you'll never get rid of greed'. I tried not to agree, but also noticed how much greed fuels our societal structure..
Are you peaceful yourself?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: WScott]
#7799430 - 12/25/07 09:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Peacefulness is generated by the understanding of any given situation, and the given situations are endless and they're flowing into our lives. When understanding occurs, peacefulness installs and along with it the ability to make other pieces fit more easily. If we decide to follow that path, a lot of our phobias and anxieties are resolved. While others occur because of the appearance of new situations. In this way, you can state that one can't fully experience peacefulness all the time. But what happens is that we create a precedent and we learn how to react. Things that once seemed irresolvable now became opportunities for growth and turned into abilities. I am peaceful at the thought that since I was able to UNDERSTAND certain situations, I will be able to do the same thing with the new ones. This thought creates a background feeling of peace even when I feel confused and fearsome.  This life is definitely amazing.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: Diploid]
#7799877 - 12/26/07 12:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I'm trying to really get a grasp on why people chose to fight and kill rather than work together towards a better planet?
The reason is simple: mysticism/religion.
It's at the bottom of nearly all human conflicts. When you have 100% certainty that the land you're fighting over was exclusively given to you by God, you become willing to kill and die for it.
Is it your opinion that if we removed religion and mysticism(two different things, btw) but left all other human characteristics the same that there would be no more violence?
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: Silversoul]
#7799888 - 12/26/07 12:44 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's my opinion that if the world were free of religion and mysticism, there wouldn't be any suicide bombers.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Crasher
αἱρετίζω




Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 6,220
Loc: Tardy to the Party
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: Silversoul]
#7799889 - 12/26/07 12:46 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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...
-------------------- Give me silence, water, hope; Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...
Edited by Crasher (12/26/07 01:11 AM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: Diploid]
#7799896 - 12/26/07 12:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: It's my opinion that if the world were free of religion and mysticism, there wouldn't be any suicide bombers.
And crepes with the image of Jesus would be able to live out their normal life function...
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: Diploid]
#7799900 - 12/26/07 12:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: It's my opinion that if the world were free of religion and mysticism, there wouldn't be any suicide bombers.
Would you prefer they used tanks and rifles?
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: Silversoul]
#7799907 - 12/26/07 12:56 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Would you prefer they used tanks and rifles?
Oh, you must mean like George Bush is doing after God told him to go to war in Iraq. He's no less a religious terrorist than a suicide bomber.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: Diploid]
#7799922 - 12/26/07 01:07 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Oh, you must mean like George Bush is doing after God told him to go to war in Iraq.
If by God you mean Dick Cheney(I hear he's quite a ventriloquist).
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daytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: Diploid]
#7799960 - 12/26/07 01:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Remember though, Bush is not only a christian, but also a very intelligent and talented individual.
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FrenziedTortoise
Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 60
Last seen: 2 months, 28 days
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compassion? [Re: dr_gonz]
#7799964 - 12/26/07 01:45 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said: I'm trying to really get a grasp on why people chose to fight and kill rather than work together towards a better planet?
I think you might be able to reduce it down to biological survivalism. At the instinctive level, each person wants to live forever (actually, this happens at the level of individual genes, but that's getting a bit too complicated) and the only way a person can partly achieve this is to reproduce and protect their offspring. Back when things were tougher and survival for another day could ride on the fact that you had one extra fruit tree in the patch of land you call your own, it was a good idea to protect that tree/land to keep your lineage alive. Conversely, if your survival was in jeapardy, and you needed your neighbour's fruit tree to live... neanderthal small scale war is born. We haven't lived in civility for long enough for these ingrained traits to dissapear, but the group of people we look out for has widened from ourselves and our family to our country.
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Visionary Tools



Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: dr_gonz]
#7800094 - 12/26/07 03:38 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Profit.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: dr_gonz]
#7800141 - 12/26/07 05:35 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'll summarize: evolutionary world survival existentialism That's the simple way. Our brain now offers us the alternative possibility(/ies) to achieve the same goals with less (direct/obvious) violence.
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Clean
the lense


Registered: 05/11/03
Posts: 2,374
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: Diploid]
#7800441 - 12/26/07 09:33 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I'm trying to really get a grasp on why people chose to fight and kill rather than work together towards a better planet?
The reason is simple: mysticism/religion.
It's at the bottom of nearly all human conflicts. When you have 100% certainty that the land you're fighting over was exclusively given to you by God, you become willing to kill and die for it.
I don't see the concepts of mysticism / religion themselves as the problem. I think we could have such beliefs and pursue those paths of consciousness without demanding that others do too. I think it is the blind fervor with which individuals seek to enforce their dogmas on others that is the problem.
If we can agree that we actually don't yet know what the hell this existence thing is all about, then we can all explore our own inclinations without needing to declare that we have the One Truth. I will add that there are plenty of people who have found personally fulfilling "mystic" truths or concepts of the ways of existence, and have no desire whatsoever to force others to accept them. They will show the way if asked, but that is all.
Edited by Clean (12/26/07 09:49 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: dr_gonz]
#7800463 - 12/26/07 09:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said: I'm trying to really get a grasp on why people chose to fight and kill rather than work together towards a better planet?
It's kind of an uneasy balance wouldn't you say? Being defensive has been good for survival for a long time. It's not easy to change what works even when it no longer does or has limited value. Death anxiety is at the bottom of it IMO. I was recently reading that the more one fears death (especially if it's mostly unconscious) the more temporary relief can be had by killing others and to boot the more killed the more feelings of saftey.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: Diploid]
#7800466 - 12/26/07 09:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's at the bottom of nearly all human conflicts. One of the rare times I do not agree with you. See my post above.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Boots
Disenchanted


Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7801266 - 12/26/07 03:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Humans have been killing since their appearance on the Earth. It's how we learned to eat.
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demiu5
humans, lol


Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium
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Re: Why does the primal instinct of war and territorialism overcome the instinct of care and compass [Re: dr_gonz]
#7806831 - 12/28/07 09:06 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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a) in most cases, it's easier to continue what we are doing, not admit any sort of 'wrong'-doing, and stay seated
b) it's a lot easier to choose to be a violent/corrupt leader (and usually has more rewards for the leader) than it is to struggle to keep everyone together (as we are somewhat aggressive animals, naturally)
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
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