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 LayYouIn
Taurus
 
Registered: 09/28/06
Posts: 4,402
Loc: Organ
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 Questions For Christians 
#7797055 - 12/24/07 11:45 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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would you say that all the Indians went to hell because they didn't believe in Jesus? how could they have accepted Jesus into their lives when they grew up with completely different religions and never even heard of Jesus or the holy bible?
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 Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God 
Last seen: 7 months, 28 days
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 Re: Questions For Christians [Re: LayYouIn]
#7797208 - 12/25/07 12:59 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Two schools of thought here.
There are the Christians who believe anybody but a true Christian is going to Hell...
And there are those who believe, like Jesus, that a good Samaritan is as welcome in heaven as anybody else.
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Fiddlesticks.
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: Questions For Christians [Re: LayYouIn]
#7797258 - 12/25/07 01:35 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
LayYouIn said:
would you say that all the Indians went to hell because they didn't believe in Jesus? how could they have accepted Jesus into their lives when they grew up with completely different religions and never even heard of Jesus or the holy bible?
A person who lives and dies and has never heard the gospel ever goes to hell. The elect are ALWAYS placed in a situation where the gospel will be heard and believed prior to death. While salvation is 100% by God's sovereign grace and a free gift, it doesn't mean that a person will be saved without being converted.
Faith doesn't merit salvation, it evidences the salvation freely given.
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RonaldFuckingPaul
Our Dear Leader
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 13,617
Loc: Straight Outta Compton
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Re: Questions For Christians [Re: fivepointer]
#7797275 - 12/25/07 01:47 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
LayYouIn said:
would you say that all the Indians went to hell because they didn't believe in Jesus? how could they have accepted Jesus into their lives when they grew up with completely different religions and never even heard of Jesus or the holy bible?
A person who lives and dies and has never heard the gospel ever goes to hell. The elect are ALWAYS placed in a situation where the gospel will be heard and believed prior to death. While salvation is 100% by God's sovereign grace and a free gift, it doesn't mean that a person will be saved without being converted.
Faith doesn't merit salvation, it evidences the salvation freely given.
Are you fucking kidding me man? So you're saying everyone has at least one chance to hear the gospel? WRONG!! How can you fucking say that? Please tell me where you gathered this information sir. I'd rather be damned to Hell than be up there with the Judeo-Christian megalomaniacal God.
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Quote:
reeferaddict69 said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
LayYouIn said:
would you say that all the Indians went to hell because they didn't believe in Jesus? how could they have accepted Jesus into their lives when they grew up with completely different religions and never even heard of Jesus or the holy bible?
A person who lives and dies and has never heard the gospel ever goes to hell. The elect are ALWAYS placed in a situation where the gospel will be heard and believed prior to death. While salvation is 100% by God's sovereign grace and a free gift, it doesn't mean that a person will be saved without being converted.
Faith doesn't merit salvation, it evidences the salvation freely given.
Are you fucking kidding me man? So you're saying everyone has at least one chance to hear the gospel? WRONG!! How can you fucking say that? Please tell me where you gathered this information sir. I'd rather be damned to Hell than be up there with the Judeo-Christian megalomaniacal God.
I never said everyone has had at least one chance to hear the gospel. Millions have never heard any gospel ever. No one is owed salvation and no one is owed a "chance". The ELECT, those who are predestined for salvation will heard and believe, not everyone.
Edited by fivepointer (12/25/07 01:57 AM)
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RonaldFuckingPaul
Our Dear Leader
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 13,617
Loc: Straight Outta Compton
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Re: Questions For Christians [Re: fivepointer]
#7797299 - 12/25/07 02:02 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
reeferaddict69 said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
LayYouIn said:
would you say that all the Indians went to hell because they didn't believe in Jesus? how could they have accepted Jesus into their lives when they grew up with completely different religions and never even heard of Jesus or the holy bible?
A person who lives and dies and has never heard the gospel ever goes to hell. The elect are ALWAYS placed in a situation where the gospel will be heard and believed prior to death. While salvation is 100% by God's sovereign grace and a free gift, it doesn't mean that a person will be saved without being converted.
Faith doesn't merit salvation, it evidences the salvation freely given.
Are you fucking kidding me man? So you're saying everyone has at least one chance to hear the gospel? WRONG!! How can you fucking say that? Please tell me where you gathered this information sir. I'd rather be damned to Hell than be up there with the Judeo-Christian megalomaniacal God.
I never said everyone has had at least one chance to hear the gospel. Millions have never heard any gospel ever. No one is owed salvation and no one is owed a "chance". The ELECT, those who are predestined for salvation will heard and believe, not everyone.
Do you realize how fucking stupid that sounds man? That statement is completely illogical in every sense of the word. So the people who aren't predestined for salvation go to hell even if they live by Christian law moreso than most Christians? That's not the idea of God that I had in mind, then again..who really knows...
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RonaldFuckingPaul
Our Dear Leader
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 13,617
Loc: Straight Outta Compton
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Maybe God's just fucking with us...
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Quote:
reeferaddict69 said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
reeferaddict69 said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
LayYouIn said:
would you say that all the Indians went to hell because they didn't believe in Jesus? how could they have accepted Jesus into their lives when they grew up with completely different religions and never even heard of Jesus or the holy bible?
A person who lives and dies and has never heard the gospel ever goes to hell. The elect are ALWAYS placed in a situation where the gospel will be heard and believed prior to death. While salvation is 100% by God's sovereign grace and a free gift, it doesn't mean that a person will be saved without being converted.
Faith doesn't merit salvation, it evidences the salvation freely given.
Are you fucking kidding me man? So you're saying everyone has at least one chance to hear the gospel? WRONG!! How can you fucking say that? Please tell me where you gathered this information sir. I'd rather be damned to Hell than be up there with the Judeo-Christian megalomaniacal God.
I never said everyone has had at least one chance to hear the gospel. Millions have never heard any gospel ever. No one is owed salvation and no one is owed a "chance". The ELECT, those who are predestined for salvation will heard and believe, not everyone.
Do you realize how fucking stupid that sounds man? That statement is completely illogical in every sense of the word. So the people who aren't predestined for salvation go to hell even if they live by Christian law moreso than most Christians? That's not the idea of God that I had in mind, then again..who really knows...
Even the most outwardly pious seemingly "good" man still lacks the righteousness demanded by God. God can only look at perfect, but no one is perfect. He can look at His Son who is perfect. Those who come through the Son are deemed perfect, not in themselves, but through Christ's perfect righteousness can they have access to the Father through the Son.
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RonaldFuckingPaul
Our Dear Leader
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 13,617
Loc: Straight Outta Compton
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Re: Questions For Christians [Re: fivepointer]
#7797327 - 12/25/07 02:23 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
reeferaddict69 said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
reeferaddict69 said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
LayYouIn said:
would you say that all the Indians went to hell because they didn't believe in Jesus? how could they have accepted Jesus into their lives when they grew up with completely different religions and never even heard of Jesus or the holy bible?
A person who lives and dies and has never heard the gospel ever goes to hell. The elect are ALWAYS placed in a situation where the gospel will be heard and believed prior to death. While salvation is 100% by God's sovereign grace and a free gift, it doesn't mean that a person will be saved without being converted.
Faith doesn't merit salvation, it evidences the salvation freely given.
Are you fucking kidding me man? So you're saying everyone has at least one chance to hear the gospel? WRONG!! How can you fucking say that? Please tell me where you gathered this information sir. I'd rather be damned to Hell than be up there with the Judeo-Christian megalomaniacal God.
I never said everyone has had at least one chance to hear the gospel. Millions have never heard any gospel ever. No one is owed salvation and no one is owed a "chance". The ELECT, those who are predestined for salvation will heard and believe, not everyone.
Do you realize how fucking stupid that sounds man? That statement is completely illogical in every sense of the word. So the people who aren't predestined for salvation go to hell even if they live by Christian law moreso than most Christians? That's not the idea of God that I had in mind, then again..who really knows...
Even the most outwardly pious seemingly "good" man still lacks the righteousness demanded by God. God can only look at perfect, but no one is perfect. He can look at His Son who is perfect. Those who come through the Son are deemed perfect, not in themselves, but through Christ's perfect righteousness can they have access to the Father through the Son.
God can look at anything cause he's all powerful right? If not then Jesus isn't God according to your logic. Man you must have had a horrible trip or something to make you sound as you sound...Let go of the past and embrace the now. It's scary I know..after a few terrifying trips I "converted" back to Christianity for fear of damnation(Salvia is some scary shit yo). Your logic will hopefully return son 
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Quote:
reeferaddict69 said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
reeferaddict69 said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
reeferaddict69 said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
LayYouIn said:
would you say that all the Indians went to hell because they didn't believe in Jesus? how could they have accepted Jesus into their lives when they grew up with completely different religions and never even heard of Jesus or the holy bible?
A person who lives and dies and has never heard the gospel ever goes to hell. The elect are ALWAYS placed in a situation where the gospel will be heard and believed prior to death. While salvation is 100% by God's sovereign grace and a free gift, it doesn't mean that a person will be saved without being converted.
Faith doesn't merit salvation, it evidences the salvation freely given.
Are you fucking kidding me man? So you're saying everyone has at least one chance to hear the gospel? WRONG!! How can you fucking say that? Please tell me where you gathered this information sir. I'd rather be damned to Hell than be up there with the Judeo-Christian megalomaniacal God.
I never said everyone has had at least one chance to hear the gospel. Millions have never heard any gospel ever. No one is owed salvation and no one is owed a "chance". The ELECT, those who are predestined for salvation will heard and believe, not everyone.
Do you realize how fucking stupid that sounds man? That statement is completely illogical in every sense of the word. So the people who aren't predestined for salvation go to hell even if they live by Christian law moreso than most Christians? That's not the idea of God that I had in mind, then again..who really knows...
Even the most outwardly pious seemingly "good" man still lacks the righteousness demanded by God. God can only look at perfect, but no one is perfect. He can look at His Son who is perfect. Those who come through the Son are deemed perfect, not in themselves, but through Christ's perfect righteousness can they have access to the Father through the Son.
God can look at anything cause he's all powerful right? If not then Jesus isn't God according to your logic. Man you must have had a horrible trip or something to make you sound as you sound...Let go of the past and embrace the now. It's scary I know..after a few terrifying trips I "converted" back to Christianity for fear of damnation(Salvia is some scary shit yo). Your logic will hopefully return son
When I say "look at" it really means have relations with, to be reconciled to, to be joined in union with. No horrible trip here. I have had trips where I could not think in English. Where my reality was replaced (salvia). Where the very pillars of myself have been moved. But all these things never gave me any truth. Fear did not motivate me since I was an agnostic/atheist. I was dead sober when I was converted.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Questions For Christians [Re: LayYouIn]
#7797569 - 12/25/07 07:26 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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A corollary question is: do pets go to heaven when they die?
When I was about 8, a Catholic priest told me that animals don't have a soul so they don't go to heaven. It made me cry because I loved my German Shepherd and it didn't seem fair that he wouldn't go to heaven with me. 
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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 Re: Questions For Christians [Re: LayYouIn]
#7797657 - 12/25/07 08:47 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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This is why the exoteric Christian mind-set has been so destructive to humanity - the concrete interpretation of the mythic-midrashic writings. The Greek-Jewish synthesis blends into unitary mysticism of comm[union] with the ONE God at the esoteric, gnostic level. As long as one's temporily-bound (which is to say thinking/believing) mind has not allowed its thought-bound limitations to vanish, one in never aware of one 'being in Christ.'
The gross errors of the Christian religion is perhaps best epitomized by the doctrine of The Trinity which I have studied academically, contemplated and included in my prayer life for decades. I finally saw the end of this concept - annihilated both by the words of scripture and by personal experiences. Amen. God is not Three, although I have read some fascinating developments of the term 'Trinity' offered by Tertullian: Augustine, Pseudo-Dionysius, Vladimir Lossky, Sergei Bulgakov, John MacQuarrie, etc. This doctrine devised of separate Names for Deity, never intended to be combined into a 'threesome' in the canonical Bible is symbolically at the head of the Christian claim for uniqueness. There was, no doubt, some Egyptian influence in its manufacture since the Egyptian trinity Osirus-Horus-Isis has close symbolic affinities to Christian trinitarian symbolism (e.g., winged Isis and later derivations of goddesses included a dove in its symbolism, Horus is a martial deity reminiscent of "...I did not come to bring peace, but a sword..." in Matthew 10:34-39, and Osirus represents dismemberment and resurrection which parallels crucifixion and resurrection).
The Great Spirit of the Native American tribes is closer conceptually to the ONE God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob , Moses and Jesus than the contrivance of trinitarian Christianity. As far as I am concerned, only unitarian (not necessarily the denomination, but theologically speaking) Christians are close to the teaching of Jesus Himself (in the New Testament and outside the canon!) than a concept of God reminiscent of Cerberus, the three-headed dog that guards Hades in Greek mythology! Quite a turn-around in one's 'feelings' for the 'sacred' over the 'profane' I'd say, yet the Holy Trinity remains a concept and ONLY a concept.
This is one idol of mind that will take a long time to be smashed, but Christendom's highest mystics including The Master Himself proclaimed this and ONLY this Jewish dictate: "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the Lord is ONE."
The Great Spirit, God, is God. As the Muslims say, "There is no God but God..."
and lambs and doves do not belong in the "Superessential Godhead" (Pseudo-Dionysus). And the self-righteous, imperialistc 'Christian' thinks [s]he has the right, no, the imperative, to evangelize to the 'Heathen' "...in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit," along with the attending stupidity to believe that it is "three persons in one substance" ("tres personas una substantia"). Nice try at sating the polytheistic soul of non-Jewish Christians while persecuting monotheistic Jews and Muslims and yes, Native Americans, at every opportunity.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY JESUS. MANY HAPPY RETURNS.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Atheist
Stranger
Registered: 01/24/06
Posts: 13,705
Loc: USA
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Re: Questions For Christians [Re: LayYouIn]
#7797791 - 12/25/07 09:35 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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it's a very interesting thought
imagine all the people BEFORE jesus and christianity...do they go to hell for not believing?
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Since you reject scripture as your sole authority for doctrine and replaced it with what seems right in your own eyes you have reached erroneous conclusions.
Why should anyone listen to you? Should we trust in your decades of contemplation, or the Word of God? You obviously just make things up as you go along.
The Trinity is not dependent on what so and so said in the past, it is part of scripture. You use every opportunity to attempt to destroy essential gospel doctrine, a sure sign of being unregenerate. Your theology is not Christian so why bother calling yourself Christian?
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,679
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Questions For Christians [Re: fivepointer]
#7798100 - 12/25/07 12:03 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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I wonder that exact same thing myself. As for me I have always been comfortable telling people that I am not a Christian.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Questions For Christians [Re: fivepointer]
#7799872 - 12/26/07 12:29 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
A person who lives and dies and has never heard the gospel ever goes to hell. The elect are ALWAYS placed in a situation where the gospel will be heard and believed prior to death.
I see. So God loves white people and hates Asians.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Re: Questions For Christians [Re: Silversoul]
#7799897 - 12/26/07 12:51 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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all of the different ideas scare me because if there's so much doubt it seems like people are just making it up and there is no actual God and well i am fucking afraid.
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RonaldFuckingPaul
Our Dear Leader
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 13,617
Loc: Straight Outta Compton
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Re: Questions For Christians [Re: Silversoul]
#7799902 - 12/26/07 12:54 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
A person who lives and dies and has never heard the gospel ever goes to hell. The elect are ALWAYS placed in a situation where the gospel will be heard and believed prior to death.
I see. So God loves white people and hates Asians.
Lol, is this fivepointer guy for real or is he just fucking w/ us?
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
reeferaddict69 said:
Lol, is this fivepointer guy for real or is he just fucking w/ us?
I'd like to believe the latter, but I just don't think anyone trying to fuck with us would keep up the act for so long.
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RonaldFuckingPaul
Our Dear Leader
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 13,617
Loc: Straight Outta Compton
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Re: Questions For Christians [Re: Silversoul]
#7799910 - 12/26/07 12:58 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
reeferaddict69 said:
Lol, is this fivepointer guy for real or is he just fucking w/ us?
I'd like to believe the latter, but I just don't think anyone trying to fuck with us would keep up the act for so long.
True, unless he had pre-existing mental conditions then took hella dr00gz and went crazy!
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Cracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,808
Loc: Swamp
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Re: Questions For Christians [Re: fivepointer]
#7799947 - 12/26/07 01:23 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
LayYouIn said:
would you say that all the Indians went to hell because they didn't believe in Jesus? how could they have accepted Jesus into their lives when they grew up with completely different religions and never even heard of Jesus or the holy bible?
A person who lives and dies and has never heard the gospel ever goes to hell. The elect are ALWAYS placed in a situation where the gospel will be heard and believed prior to death. While salvation is 100% by God's sovereign grace and a free gift, it doesn't mean that a person will be saved without being converted.
Faith doesn't merit salvation, it evidences the salvation freely given.
Oh that's neat. Don't you ever THINK to yourself outside the sphere of your well bordered beliefs/faith?
I'd really like to know your background, Socioeconomic Status, and so on. I think that would tell a lot about a person like you.
Maybe I could start my own little company that profits off assoles like you. I could form my own ministry catering to your SES and make a tax-free fortune!! Whew, I'm salivating with the potential of power.
--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
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RonaldFuckingPaul
Our Dear Leader
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 13,617
Loc: Straight Outta Compton
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Re: Questions For Christians [Re: Cracka_X]
#7799952 - 12/26/07 01:28 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cracka_X said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
LayYouIn said:
would you say that all the Indians went to hell because they didn't believe in Jesus? how could they have accepted Jesus into their lives when they grew up with completely different religions and never even heard of Jesus or the holy bible?
A person who lives and dies and has never heard the gospel ever goes to hell. The elect are ALWAYS placed in a situation where the gospel will be heard and believed prior to death. While salvation is 100% by God's sovereign grace and a free gift, it doesn't mean that a person will be saved without being converted.
Faith doesn't merit salvation, it evidences the salvation freely given.
Oh that's neat. Don't you ever THINK to yourself outside the sphere of your well bordered beliefs/faith?
I'd really like to know your background, Socioeconomic Status, and so on. I think that would tell a lot about a person like you.
Maybe I could start my own little company that profits off assoles like you. I could form my own ministry catering to your SES and make a tax-free fortune!! Whew, I'm salivating with the potential of power.
I'm in
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Questions For Christians [Re: Cracka_X]
#7799961 - 12/26/07 01:38 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Cracka_X, Disagree all you like, but no flaming in this forum.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Questions For Christians [Re: LayYouIn]
#7800116 - 12/26/07 05:01 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Jebuzz didn't want us to distract from the 'father'.
All that babbling about Jebuzz by some is meant to distract us from g*d and mainly is invented from some power hungry churches which projected all g*d's' power into a person they call Jesus (to distract one from g*d), which almost all fell to worldly power-influences as they forget to point out what g*d really seems to be and can't be fixed to only one person, how hilarious.
Humans.
edit: power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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 Re: Questions For Christians [Re: Silversoul]
#7801249 - 12/26/07 03:50 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
reeferaddict69 said:
Lol, is this fivepointer guy for real or is he just fucking w/ us?
I'd like to believe the latter, but I just don't think anyone trying to fuck with us would keep up the act for so long.
Is it possible that he a piece of interactive software? The responses are limited and predictable.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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LayYouIn
Taurus
Registered: 09/28/06
Posts: 4,402
Loc: Organ
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Quote:
reeferaddict69 said:
Lol, is this fivepointer guy for real or is he just fucking w/ us?
to be honest, fivepointer is they only person here that actually answered my question with a logical answer.
so fivepointer, could the indians just be some strange illusion to test me on this very question? or could they be people that lived their lives in the past, didn't choose the right path, and then had to live life over again(as indians) without any chance of finding God? or is it just something that a human wouldn't be able to understand?
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RonaldFuckingPaul
Our Dear Leader
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 13,617
Loc: Straight Outta Compton
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
reeferaddict69 said:
Lol, is this fivepointer guy for real or is he just fucking w/ us?
I'd like to believe the latter, but I just don't think anyone trying to fuck with us would keep up the act for so long.
Is it possible that he a piece of interactive software? The responses are limited and predictable.
Lol!
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Cracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,808
Loc: Swamp
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hahaha !
--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
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Cracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,808
Loc: Swamp
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Re: Questions For Christians [Re: Atheist]
#7802641 - 12/27/07 12:57 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Atheist said:
it's a very interesting thought
imagine all the people BEFORE jesus and christianity...do they go to hell for not believing?
Yeah God had to make sure the time was right for letting Man into heaven.
This has made me wonder about the transition the old testament made to the new testament. Like God just had a change of heart and decided to be a little more forgiving.
Seems like daddy hit mommy at the dinner table in the old testament and the new testament goes on saying how everything will be ok.
Either way, the pages of the book are soft enough for my ass so I'm happy 
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The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Re: Questions For Christians [Re: LayYouIn]
#7803389 - 12/27/07 10:08 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
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I just thought I'd add that personal immortality is NOT biblical. Most people have been so influenced by the Hellenistic elements of Christianity that they do not understand that "eternal life" is NOT the same as personal immortality. God alone is eternal, and the human being as differentiated from Pure Being (God) perishes. What remains of the human being is, ostensibly, love, because of the formulaic "God is love" (1 John 4:8). Agape - selfless love, does not originate with the human being but is God's nature incarnating - coming to birth in the human being. This is the whole point of the Incarnation as metaphor for God manifesting in space-time. The only thing is, when metaphor is taken literally, it becomes doctrine.
Judaism sometimes spoke of 'sheol' like the Greek Hades, a projection of the astral sort, not much more than metaphor. Personal immortality of an individual awareness, unbound to a physical body necessitates some kind of rarified body, like the Catholic 'glorified body' or 'resurrection body' An individual awareness completely free and unbounded by some kind of frame of reference makes no sense. It would then be a universal awarenesss, and THAT would be a description of God or Buddhist Clear Light or another religion's term. In the Buddhist doctrine, this is exactly what is taught to be the case as well as in certain Gnostic Christian sects, namely, that who and what we are essentially is indistinguishable from God. This is why the further doctrine of Godhead developed - to distinguish human being spiritual essence from the Essence of God - the Godhead. God and Godhead are metaphorically sunlight and sun, respectivly.
Therefore, 'going' to heaven or hell denotes movement, movement in turn denotes an object moving between different points on some continuum or within some matrix. Now these expressions: going to heaven/hell may themselves remain metaphorical for conditions or experiences that the dying body-brain-bound consciousness may experience, and as psychonauts well know, there are moments of timeless intensity which are experienced as eternity. It may well be that consciousness returning to Pure Consciousness, like the wave which is blown into form by the wind, peaks, dies and returns into the placid Ocean whence it arose, finally experiences itself as the entire Ocean instead of as an individual wave. While in time, there is individuality and beyond time, there is only utter simplicity - Unity in the One.
Hell, perhaps better elaborated in Buddhism, is the result of ignorance (sin in the West) in which the individual human being identifies completely with form, matter and egoic mind. There is no awareness of God in life and the dissolution of form-bound consciousness in the 'Face' of the Clear Light (or 'Limitless Light' in Kabbalism) is tantamount to facing the white-hot fires of Hell. Painful to the individual consciousness which refuses to surrender to dissolution - an 'icy' identity which refuses to accept its 'watery' or 'steamy' essence as 'soul' and 'spirit.' (Hey, we're like 85% water, so waves and water metaphors apply! ) Heaven might then be likened more to a willful surrender and relaxation into a not-too-hot bath - a melting, melding, unifying immersion into the essence of who and what we are and have always been.
I'm simply suggesting metaphors which move away from some monsterous Moloch-like deity who immolates human 'souls' in an eternal torment unless one believes a particular set of doctrines (thoughts). The biblical rendering of the Greek psyche is non-Hebrew in nature and thus it does not represent the mind of Iesus or the early [Jewish] Christians. No one I've ever met aside from Kabbalistis ever bothered to ask what Paul, Iesus and the other Hebrews meant when they used the word 'soul.' I can say (without getting more academic) that they didn't mean anything like what the average or below-average Christian has in mind. Most Christians uncritically carry Greek ideas of the soul which has nothing to do with the understandings of biblical writers. It was the Hellenistic Jew, Philo of Alexandria who first merged Greek philosophy with Hebrew mythos in the attempt to justify the supernatural elements of the Jewish Bible (thereby creating theology!). The author of the Gospel of John, some 90 years after Iesus died, utilized Philo's writings on the Logos (Word, Reason, Meaning) to write his gospel. Going to heaven/hell is NOT a Hebrew notion and it is NOT what Iesus would have taught regardless of what anyone's interpretations of the New Testament are or have been.
"Chistianity Must Change or Die."
- Rev. John Shelby Spong
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Gretchenmeister
Starbeing/Psilocybin Savant
Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 1,032
Loc: From the Stars
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Actually the native americans have thier own story of creation and God, and eventually of Jesus. In legend, the tribes were given to the earth as twelve tribes, from twelve stars. They also believe Jesus was a starperson, sage warrior, healer...or otherwise a shaman.
Who showed the shaman the way?
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What's wrong with folks?
Point your IRC client to irc.socialirc.com, port 6667, #cultivation and #shroomery for live chat with like minded hobbyists and connoisseurs.
Mush Porn
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,871
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
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Fuck Jesus.
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...or something
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Love Cap
Wanderer
Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 401
Loc: somewhere in the plains
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
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Exactly, I think Jesus could have very well been a shaman of some sort.. he has this profound moment, or realization of life, so what do you do after that? Most of us have had those kind of trips... you want to talk about it. Instead of people taking it in and trying to realize for themselves, they started worshipping him instead of his views... he's not the son of god, just another enlightened one, and ALL of us can be enlightened, because we're all apart of god( i don't like to use the word god), we're all apart of the universe.
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