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Offline2FiNiTe
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Re: Cannabis smoke has 20 times more harmful toxins than tobacco [Re: johnm214]
    #7800796 - 12/26/07 12:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
You may impress the "dude science is totally not cool, man" crowd






:lol:  I'm a 4th year Chemistry Major.  The fact that I do read sprung the questions I raised.  I think maybe you should just calm down. If you think anyone has to prove anything to you,  your sadly mistaken.

Asking how the tests were ran, would be the first question any science oriented person would ask. 


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"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley


Edited by 2FiNiTe (12/26/07 12:35 PM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Cannabis smoke has 20 times more harmful toxins than tobacco [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7801829 - 12/26/07 07:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'm just crankey!!!

But yeah, read the study, seems cool to me. They caution that it means nothing except as related to the particular samples, and even those tested showed a good benefit to pot as opposed to tobacco, in my untrained eye.


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Cannabis smoke has 20 times more harmful toxins than tobacco [Re: Cannabischarlie]
    #7801937 - 12/26/07 08:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cannabischarlie said:
I can't help but wonder how they can say it causes cancer when no one has ever gotten cancer from smoking Marijuana. Don't even get me started on the fact that Marijuana smoke has been proven to inhibit lung cancer cells in mice.




no one's ever proven that smoking tobacco causes cancer either, it's against the ethical code to conduct an experiment to find out. So in that sense you are correct, they can't say it does unless they've made people smoke pot and they got cancer, while ruling out every other possibility.

Smoked plant matter causes carcinogens, why is that so hard for people to understand? But just because you MAY get cancer from it doesn't mean you WILL get cancer from it.


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OfflineCannabischarlie
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Re: Cannabis smoke has 20 times more harmful toxins than tobacco [Re: johnm214]
    #7803230 - 12/27/07 08:43 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

No, Marijuana has never caused cancer, therefore it doesnt, simple as that. Tobacco has been proven time and time again to be the direct cause of lung cancer in many cases. Marijuana has not. Also they have proven that it is the carcinogenic chemicals and how its grown that makes tobacco cancer-causing, and Marijuana fails to cause the same mechanism of action. Read up before you post, you are making broad statements. Not only has Marijuana not proved to cause cancer, it has proven that it DOESN'T


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  we could all use a little more sunshine.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Cannabis smoke has 20 times more harmful toxins than tobacco [Re: Cannabischarlie]
    #7803740 - 12/27/07 12:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

oh I thought it was just linked to, assumed cause and effect etc, up to a point where it was pretty fucking obvious that it causes cancer but it hadn't been "proven" by which i mean tested on people in a controlled environment and given said people cancer and ruled out any other causes of cancer.

I'm not saying I don't think tobacco causes cancer im just saying that I was lead to believe that "technically" we don't know.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Cannabis smoke has 20 times more harmful toxins than tobacco [Re: Cannabischarlie]
    #7804830 - 12/27/07 05:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cannabischarlie said:
No, Marijuana has never caused cancer, therefore it doesnt, simple as that. Tobacco has been proven time and time again to be the direct cause of lung cancer in many cases. Marijuana has not. Also they have proven that it is the carcinogenic chemicals and how its grown that makes tobacco cancer-causing, and Marijuana fails to cause the same mechanism of action. Read up before you post, you are making broad statements. Not only has Marijuana not proved to cause cancer, it has proven that it DOESN'T




provide sources or shut up

your statements have been disputed previously, and you've yet to meet the burden your argument carries.

show the proof for the premises of your argument.

I think you're wrong


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Cannabis smoke has 20 times more harmful toxins than tobacco [Re: johnm214]
    #7805396 - 12/27/07 08:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

thanks johnm214, I knew I wasn't retarded. I also recall going over this situation in a psych class and the professor repeatedly telling a student what I said, it hasn't been proven because the ethics laws won't allow it.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Cannabis smoke has 20 times more harmful toxins than tobacco [Re: learningtofly]
    #7805416 - 12/27/07 08:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

exactly, plus the practical considerations are ridiculous. Lock two populations up and subject one group to varying concentrations of smoke, and the other nothing? Wait 20 years? Who pays for these people to live in the lab? Who decides to volunteer?

Even if you got matching populations and environments in their outside life (for the sake of assumption) it would be unethical to subject one group to smoke, and the other not- where both would need to have been tobacco-naive to demonstrate the causual connection.

Just cuz tobacco and marijuana cause cancer (almost certainly) that doesn't mean they have been proven to in anything other than an observational study. Useually when people talk about something being proven, it is in regards to an actual experiment- not just surveys and bullshit like that.

Causality and correlation are two different things, just like whether marijuana causes cancer and whether it can be proven to are two different things.


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OfflineRogerRabbitV
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Re: Cannabis smoke has 20 times more harmful toxins than tobacco [Re: LayYouIn]
    #7806642 - 12/28/07 05:58 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LayYouIn said:
lol, look at all these pot heads not being able to face the truth, how funny!

why not just say "it's unhealthy for me, but im going to do it anyways"?




I have four grandchildren so far, and have been smoking pot daily for 45 years. I've also climbed to the summit of nearly 200 mountains, and have climbed 6 mountains so far this winter. If pot is trashing out my lungs, somebody please tell my blood system because it stays at 99% O2 saturation, even under climbing conditions at high altitude. In fact, I climb with guys less than half my age, and it's rare indeed when I'm not the first one to the top of the mountain. It's interesting they'll make a 'smoking machine' to prove their theories, but never interview or study people like me.
RR


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Invisibleflavoraid
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Re: Cannabis smoke has 20 times more harmful toxins than tobacco [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8106059 - 03/05/08 12:54 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

LayYouIn said:
lol, look at all these pot heads not being able to face the truth, how funny!

why not just say "it's unhealthy for me, but im going to do it anyways"?




I have four grandchildren so far, and have been smoking pot daily for 45 years. I've also climbed to the summit of nearly 200 mountains, and have climbed 6 mountains so far this winter. If pot is trashing out my lungs, somebody please tell my blood system because it stays at 99% O2 saturation, even under climbing conditions at high altitude. In fact, I climb with guys less than half my age, and it's rare indeed when I'm not the first one to the top of the mountain. It's interesting they'll make a 'smoking machine' to prove their theories, but never interview or study people like me.
RR




RR I know pack a day smokers that are in boxing leagues, and others who run marathons. May I ask how much pot you smoke? I know this is a old thread but if anyone wants to get an idea of how much tar and crap is in their weed take out a nugget and chew it.

Maybe it's you being active that clears out your lungs and keeps you healthy. Do you smoke with a bong or vaporizor or old school joints?

props to you and your mountain climbing that's pretty intense, you must be around 60 years old eh?


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coda said:
imachavel, Man you really need to do some reading, the amount of bullshit you put into almost every single one of your posts is absolutely astounding.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Cannabis smoke has 20 times more harmful toxins than tobacco [Re: flavoraid]
    #8106337 - 03/05/08 02:20 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Veggie posted this when it came out 2 1/2 years ago. There are several similar articles for anyone who does a search.

Study: Smoking Marijuana Does Not Cause Lung Cancer
July 2, 2005 - counterpunch.org

Marijuana smoking -"even heavy longterm use"- does not cause cancer of the lung, upper airwaves, or esophagus, Donald Tashkin reported at this year's meeting of the International Cannabinoid Research Society. Coming from Tashkin, this conclusion had extra significance for the assembled drug-company and university-based scientists (most of whom get funding from the U.S. National Institute on Drug Abuse). Over the years, Tashkin's lab at UCLA has produced irrefutable evidence of the damage that marijuana smoke wreaks on bronchial tissue. With NIDA's support, Tashkin and colleagues have identified the potent carcinogens in marijuana smoke, biopsied and made photomicrographs of pre-malignant cells, and studied the molecular changes occurring within them. It is Tashkin's research that the Drug Czar's office cites in ads linking marijuana to lung cancer. Tashkin himself has long believed in a causal relationship, despite a study in which Stephen Sidney examined the files of 64,000 Kaiser patients and found that marijuana users didn't develop lung cancer at a higher rate or die earlier than non-users. Of five smaller studies on the question, only two -involving a total of about 300 patients- concluded that marijuana smoking causes lung cancer. Tashkin decided to settle the question by conducting a large, prospectively designed, population-based, case-controlled study. "Our major hypothesis," he told the ICRS, "was that heavy, longterm use of marijuana will increase the risk of lung and upper-airwaves cancers."

The Los Angeles County Cancer Surveillance program provided Tashkin's team with the names of 1,209 L.A. residents aged 59 or younger with cancer (611 lung, 403 oral/pharyngeal, 90 laryngeal, 108 esophageal). Interviewers collected extensive lifetime histories of marijuana, tobacco, alcohol and other drug use, and data on diet, occupational exposures, family history of cancer, and various "socio-demographic factors." Exposure to marijuana was measured in joint years (joints per day x 365). Controls were found based on age, gender and neighborhood. Among them, 46% had never used marijuana, 31% had used less than one joint year, 12% had used 10-30 j-yrs, 2% had used 30-60 j-yrs, and 3% had used for more than 60 j-yrs. Tashkin controlled for tobacco use and calculated the relative risk of marijuana use resulting in lung and upper airwaves cancers. All the odds ratios turned out to be less than one (one being equal to the control group's chances)! Compared with subjects who had used less than one joint year, the estimated odds ratios for lung cancer were .78; for 1-10 j-yrs, .74; for 10-30 j-yrs, .85 for 30-60 j-yrs; and 0.81 for more than 60 j-yrs. The estimated odds ratios for oral/pharyngeal cancers were 0.92 for 1-10 j-yrs; 0.89 for 10-30 j-yrs; 0.81 for 30-60 j-yrs; and 1.0 for more than 60 j-yrs. "Similar, though less precise results were obtained for the other cancer sites," Tashkin reported. "We found absolutely no suggestion of a dose response." The data on tobacco use, as expected, revealed "a very potent effect and a clear dose-response relationship -a 21-fold greater risk of developing lung cancer if you smoke more than two packs a day." Similarly high odds obtained for oral/pharyngeal cancer, laryngeal cancer and esophageal cancer. "So, in summary" Tashkin concluded, "we failed to observe a positive association of marijuana use and other potential confounders."

There was time for only one question, said the moderator, and San Francisco oncologist Donald Abrams, M.D., was already at the microphone: "You don't see any positive correlation, but in at least one category [marijuana-only smokers and lung cancer], it almost looked like there was a negative correlation, i.e., a protective effect. Could you comment on that?"

"Yes," said Tashkin. "The odds ratios are less than one almost consistently, and in one category that relationship was significant, but I think that it would be difficult to extract from these data the conclusion that marijuana is protective against lung cancer. But that is not an unreasonable hypothesis."

Abrams had results of his own to report at the ICRS meeting. He and his colleagues at San Francisco General Hospital had conducted a randomized, placebo-controlled study involving 50 patients with HIV-related peripheral neuropathy. Over the course of five days, patients recorded their pain levels in a diary after smoking either NIDA-supplied marijuana cigarettes or cigarettes from which the THC had been extracted. About 25% didn't know or guessed wrong as to whether they were smoking the placebos, which suggests that the blinding worked. Abrams requested that his results not be described in detail prior to publication in a peer-reviewed medical journal, but we can generalize: they exceeded expectations, and show marijuana providing pain relief comparable to Gabapentin, the most widely used treatment for a condition that afflicts some 30% of patients with HIV.

To a questioner who bemoaned the difficulty of "separating the high from the clinical benefits," Abrams replied: "I'm an oncologist as well as an AIDS doctor and I don't think that a drug that creates euphoria in patients with terminal diseases is having an adverse effect." His study was funded by the University of California's Center for Medicinal Cannabis Research.

* * *

The 15th annual meeting of the ICRS was held at the Clearwater, Florida, Hilton, June 24-27. Almost 300 scientists attended. R. Stephen Ellis, MD, of San Francisco, was the sole clinician from California. Los Angeles Farmacy operator Mike Ommaha and therapist/cultivator Pat Humphrey showed up to audit the proceedings... Some of the younger European scientists expressed consternation over the recent U.S. Supreme Court ruling and the vote in Congress re-enforcing the cannabis prohibition. "How can they dispute that it has medical effect?" an investigator working in Germany asked us earnestly. She had come to give a talk on "the role of different neuronal populations in the pharmacological actions of delta-9 THC." For most ICRS members, the holy grail is a legal synthetic drug that exerts the medicinal effects of the prohibited herb. To this end they study the mechanism of action by which the body's own cannabinoids are assembled, function, and get broken down. A drug that encourages production or delays dissolution, they figure, might achieve the desired effect without being subject to "abuse..." News on the scientific front included the likely identification of a third cannabinoid receptor expressed in tissues of the lung, brain, kidney, spleen and smaller branches of the mesenteric artery. Investigators from GlaxoSmithKline and AstraZeneca both reported finding the new receptor but had different versions of its pharmacology. It may have a role in regulating blood pressure.

Several talks and posters described the safety and efficacy of Sativex, G.W. Pharmaceuticals' whole-plant extract containing high levels of THC and CBD (cannabidiol) formulated to spray in the mouth. G.W. director Geoffrey Guy seemed upbeat, despite the drubbing his company's stock took this spring when UK regulators withheld permission to market Sativex pending another clinical trial. Canada recently granted approval for doctors to prescribe Sativex, and five sales reps from Bayer (to whom G.W. sold the Canadian marketing rights) are promoting it to neurologists. Sativex was approved for the treatment of neuropathic pain in multiple sclerosis, but can be prescribed for other purposes as doctors see fit.

A more detailed report on the ICRS meeting will appear in the upcoming issue of O'Shaughnessy's, a journal put out by California's small but growing group of pro-cannabis doctors. To get on the mailing list, send a contribution of any amount to the CCRMG (California Cannabis Research Medical Group) at p.o. box 9143, Berkeley, CA 94709. It's a 501c3 non-profit and your correspondent's main source of income.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Re: Cannabis smoke has 20 times more harmful toxins than tobacco [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8107657 - 03/05/08 07:13 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

LayYouIn said:
lol, look at all these pot heads not being able to face the truth, how funny!

why not just say "it's unhealthy for me, but im going to do it anyways"?




I have four grandchildren so far, and have been smoking pot daily for 45 years. I've also climbed to the summit of nearly 200 mountains, and have climbed 6 mountains so far this winter. If pot is trashing out my lungs, somebody please tell my blood system because it stays at 99% O2 saturation, even under climbing conditions at high altitude. In fact, I climb with guys less than half my age, and it's rare indeed when I'm not the first one to the top of the mountain. It's interesting they'll make a 'smoking machine' to prove their theories, but never interview or study people like me.
RR




but it still isn't healthy for you. you WOULD be healthier if you didn't smoke weed.


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Cannabis smoke has 20 times more harmful toxins than tobacco [Re: LayYouIn]
    #8107750 - 03/05/08 07:28 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

whys it so hard to believe that theres something wrong with pot? but who gives a fuck? you it doesnt take away your best years, it takes away your last years, so smoke up.


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Invisibleflavoraid
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Re: Cannabis smoke has 20 times more harmful toxins than tobacco [Re: learningtofly]
    #8107942 - 03/05/08 08:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
whys it so hard to believe that theres something wrong with pot? but who gives a fuck? you it doesnt take away your best years, it takes away your last years, so smoke up.




your a dumbass.

that's the most stupid philosophy ever.

it makes you not so worse years your worse and final years.


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coda said:
imachavel, Man you really need to do some reading, the amount of bullshit you put into almost every single one of your posts is absolutely astounding.


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InvisibleLayYouIn
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Re: Cannabis smoke has 20 times more harmful toxins than tobacco [Re: flavoraid]
    #8112577 - 03/06/08 06:45 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

flavoraid said:
it makes you not so worse years your worse and final years.




this could be debated. it depends on how you smoke it, how much you smoke, and how often you smoke.

even if you only smoke once a year, putting smoke into your lungs just isn't healthy, no debate there. as far as taking years off your life and making years in your life worse, all debatable.


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Invisibleflavoraid
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Re: Cannabis smoke has 20 times more harmful toxins than tobacco [Re: LayYouIn]
    #8112594 - 03/06/08 06:48 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Think about it

the average smoker knocks the last 12 years off his life.

do you honestly think if he dies of smoking related w.e he's gonna die a peaceful death and live his life out happily and comfortably?

I don't

I quit smoking january 5th.


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coda said:
imachavel, Man you really need to do some reading, the amount of bullshit you put into almost every single one of your posts is absolutely astounding.


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Offlinerushofblood
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Re: Cannabis smoke has 20 times more harmful toxins than tobacco [Re: flavoraid]
    #8114263 - 03/07/08 12:02 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Let's all just infuse oil with cannabis and anoint ourselves and we don't have to worry about 'harmful smoke'.

:grin:


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OfflineHighHat
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Re: Cannabis smoke has 20 times more harmful toxins than tobacco [Re: rushofblood]
    #8114467 - 03/07/08 01:04 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


I quit smoking january 5th.




That explains the OMFG NO SMOKE ITS BAD FOR YOU YOURE DUMB IM SMARTERERERER attitude.

Eat pot brownies or butter if you're worried about tar, if you want to smoke without smoking, use a vap. Burning anything and breathing in the smoke is bad for you, but burning weed and breathing it in is far less harmful than burning tobacco, or gasoline.

My friend in medical school said his professor had them read a paper on marijuana-induced cancer cell apoptosis.

Ignore my nonsense. Im waiting to wake up on my keyboard. Better yet. Im waiting to come out of a coma. I seem to be stuck in a world inhabited by morons who try to scare people into believing bullshit to impede their spiritual growth and transcendence.


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Edited by HighHat (03/07/08 01:10 AM)


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OfflineJack_Straw
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Re: Cannabis smoke has 20 times more harmful toxins than tobacco [Re: HighHat]
    #8116195 - 03/07/08 02:17 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

right. read the webmd study.
cliffs notes:
multiple phD's studied marijuana smokers, most of them going into the study with the assumption (because of 20x more chemicals than tobacco) that marijuana would cause cancer.

they were surprised by the results - the control group who smoked no marijuana had no difference in cancer rates than the heavy smokers group.


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InvisibleLayYouIn
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Re: Cannabis smoke has 20 times more harmful toxins than tobacco [Re: flavoraid]
    #8117438 - 03/07/08 07:33 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

flavoraid said:
Think about it

the average smoker knocks the last 12 years off his life.

do you honestly think if he dies of smoking related w.e he's gonna die a peaceful death and live his life out happily and comfortably?

I don't

I quit smoking january 5th.




the average cannabis smoker knocks the last 12 years off his/her life? or cigarette smoker?

so far this year, i've only smoked weed twice. i haven't smoked a cigarette since a couple weeks before christmas. but just because i've cut down on smoking weed, doesn't mean im against it...im just trying to save money.


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