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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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I disagree. And most of the people held hostage at our embassy in Iran for over a year were what I consider "ordinary people". Just going about their jobs. And ANY lunatic with a nuke is a threat.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
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Re: Questioning Of Ron Paul On Earmarks [Re: zappaisgod]
#7801613 - 12/26/07 06:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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You're forgetting the part where Iran doesn't have a nuke.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Questioning Of Ron Paul On Earmarks [Re: Redstorm]
#7801631 - 12/26/07 06:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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And our number one job is to see it stays that way. For t3h liddle chilluns.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Questioning Of Ron Paul On Earmarks [Re: zappaisgod]
#7801640 - 12/26/07 06:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/12/21 06:36 PM)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Questioning Of Ron Paul On Earmarks [Re: zappaisgod]
#7803020 - 12/27/07 06:24 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: And our number one job is to see it stays that way. For t3h liddle chilluns.
No it isn't. It isn't the responsibility of the United States of America, and it is not the right of the United States of America. This cannot be refuted, not that you would try anyways. 
If there was a threat, the international community would come together in order to address it. The United States of America cannot take it upon itself to interfere in these nations in such a manner, even as we have made a habit of doing so, due to the harmful, counter-productive ideaology that you flaunt.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
Edited by fireworks_god (12/27/07 06:25 AM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Questioning Of Ron Paul On Earmarks [Re: fireworks_god]
#7804276 - 12/27/07 02:26 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: And our number one job is to see it stays that way. For t3h liddle chilluns.
No it isn't. It isn't the responsibility of the United States of America, and it is not the right of the United States of America. This cannot be refuted, not that you would try anyways. 
Responsibilities and rights are irrelevant. Nations do not have rights nor do they owe any other particular nation protection absent specific treaties (contracts). The only question of relevance is "Is it in our interest?" With all other factors weighed in, which includes a calculation on international support and international opprobrium. It is quite clearly in our interests NOT to have a nuke powered Iran. They are fucking batshit crazy and hate us.Quote:
If there was a threat, the international community would come together in order to address it.
Well, when they do come together you and your ilk say they are coerced by the uber mighty US. Puppets, as it were. And should we give a fuck what our enemies and competitors say? We know our friends by their shared interests. Sarkozy is an interesting new player. Then again so is Brown and the new Aussie, whatever his name is. Putting aside all of that, the international community, whatever that is, will never come together. Don't forget, damn near half the nations were on the Axis side. Just win, baby.Quote:
The United States of America cannot take it upon itself to interfere in these nations in such a manner, even as we have made a habit of doing so, due to the harmful, counter-productive ideaology that you flaunt.
Yes it can, and we must continue to work for our interests. And as far as the counterproductive nature of the ideology I flaunt, you are a fool. Because of my "ideology" hundreds of millions of people are freed from communist slavery, tens of millions of Iraqis and Afghanis no longer have to deal with government oppression, Taiwan remains free. There are more, but those are the big ones. And it has been in our interests to make it so.
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
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Re: Questioning Of Ron Paul On Earmarks [Re: zappaisgod]
#7804386 - 12/27/07 03:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Does israel even need the US/UN? If anything we would hold them back, I am fairly confident that Israel would freakin OWN up on Iran... Israel already has a good number of nukes, not to mention an elite military and a population that is ready and willing to defend her. I think history has shown Israel is pretty good at self defense, I agree with RP somewhat, that they would embarrass Iran. And Iran has to know that.
I dunno, just seems like Israel could do well, as long as US/UN doesnt cut off supply in any way or whatever.
Would Iran have any capability to strike the mainland USA though? Wouldnt a missile be shot down by the time it hit America? Arent we more worried about middle east stability? (oil)
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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OneMoreRobot3021



Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 61,024
Loc: the sky
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Re: Questioning Of Ron Paul On Earmarks [Re: fireworks_god]
#7804390 - 12/27/07 03:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ending a post with that "sorry" smiley is really, really annoying.
-------------------- Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake. -Erik Davis
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Questioning Of Ron Paul On Earmarks [Re: zappaisgod]
#7805104 - 12/27/07 07:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/12/21 06:37 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
Because of my "ideology" hundreds of millions of people are freed from communist slavery...
This is delusional self-righteousness. It implies that hundreds of millions haven't lived & suffered under brutal & repressive U.S.-backed regimes & paramilitary organizations; not to mentioned tens of millions murdered & killed both by direct U.S. government actions & those of its puppets around the world.
It implies nothing of the kind. Somehow the notion that the US is responsible for all of the acts of every nation they give some form of support to strikes me as funny. Because it sure isn't serious.Quote:
The second reason it is delusional is because it omits an inconvenient truth about someone like Stalin that flag-waving Americans must lie about in order to believe their supposed moral superiority. The condition of the majority in the Soviet Union improved greatly under Stalin; industrialization & modernization greatly improved healthcare & overall standard of living, life expectancies shot up at phenomenal levels, housing & infrastructure improved greatly, Russia went from an impoverished, backwards nation to a world superpower at a rate faster than perhaps any other empire in history. The (majority) of the Russian people benefited more from 30 years of Stalin's rule than in 300 years of the Romanov dynasty.
Yep, the trains ran on time. The people benefited not one iota from the Soviet military prowess. In fact, their lack of military prowess brought down the whole communist regime.Quote:
Yes, many millions were murdered & killed, & tens of millions more were oppressed & exploited as a result of Soviet government policy. Do the positives justify the negatives? That's an interesting ethical question for Americans to answer honestly. Can you think of another nation that become a world superpower based of the murder & killings of tens of millions, & the oppression & exploitation of countless tens of millions more around the world? Or are you too self-righteous to admit what any objective observer can easily see?
China? Great Britain? France? Spain? Japan? The Netherlands? Italy? Rome? Greece? Germany? Persia? Bullshitistan? Nope, none of them are quite the same. A government is best judged by how it treats its own citizens. That is, after all, its entire raison d'etre
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Questioning Of Ron Paul On Earmarks [Re: zappaisgod]
#7807239 - 12/28/07 11:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/12/21 06:38 PM)
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Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
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Quote:
OneLessForeskin said: He came across as somewhat weaselly and, I don't know - unprofessional?
Hmmm, seems to happen to the guy when he's questioned by anyone not wearing a Ron Paul pin.
Russert's been so aggressive lately it almost hurts to watch. Butchering Hillary. 45 minutes on Giuliani's personal life, 45 minutes on Mormonism with Romney, and now a wildly condescending interview with Ron Paul. He was real sweet to Obama, but, ya know, how could he not be?
-------------------- what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?
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SlashOZ
:D



Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
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Re: Questioning Of Ron Paul On Earmarks [Re: Gijith]
#7809230 - 12/28/07 11:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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they aren't seeking nukes though Zappa. the thing is Iran is too afraid to go after these weapons while we have control of the two surrounding regions. not to mention a very strong Israel in close proximity. it would be a true 'suicide' maneuver by Iran to use a nuclear weapon, probably to even test one. the end goal of our negotiations with Iran should to make them happy as long as they do everything we want. the current method is to just sanction the heck out of them on the military side. that is agreeable but we need to stop holding the possibility of a mushroom cloud over Tehran. that is just taking it way to far. the whole point is to proliferate.
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
OneLessForeskin said: Ending a post with that "sorry" smiley is really, really annoying.
Allowing oneself to be personally irritated by a pretty trivial thing that one was indirectly exposed to and feeling it necessary to pronounce one's resultant, self-inflicted internal state as though it were relevant or note-worthy seems rather pointless. I'd suggest getting over yourself.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Questioning Of Ron Paul On Earmarks [Re: Gijith]
#7810047 - 12/29/07 09:22 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Gijith said: Russert's been so aggressive lately it almost hurts to watch. Butchering Hillary. 45 minutes on Giuliani's personal life, 45 minutes on Mormonism with Romney, and now a wildly condescending interview with Ron Paul. He was real sweet to Obama, but, ya know, how could he not be?
Russert loves the black cock.
Looking forward to Huckabee being on tomorrow! Russert has enough material to work with to run an eight-hour inquisition if he could. Hopefully special interests don't compromise Russert, leading to him keeping Huckabee off the hook.... I hope he grills him for dinner.
"You vote for me, you live. If you don't vote for me, well, then you die". - Huckabee He forgot to mention that, if you vote for him, he'll tax you to the point that you wish you were dead.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: Questioning Of Ron Paul On Earmarks [Re: zappaisgod]
#7810255 - 12/29/07 11:16 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Responsibilities and rights are irrelevant.
No they aren't. When one country assumes for itself a right, sovereignty, it will face negative consequences for not respecting the same right of other nations. This works on the level of nations, just as well as it does for individuals. Disregard it, but the fact remains. I am not responsible for the personal choices that someone in Idaho makes, and I do not have the right to impose my will upon them to make them a certain way in regards to my interests, unless they are imposing upon my rights.
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Nations do not have rights nor do they owe any other particular nation protection absent specific treaties (contracts).
How can a government that has no sovereignity or rights enter into a treaty?
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The only question of relevance is "Is it in our interest?" With all other factors weighed in, which includes a calculation on international support and international opprobrium. It is quite clearly in our interests NOT to have a nuke powered Iran. They are fucking batshit crazy and hate us.
Great question. Is it in our interest? If it were truly in our interest to go to war with Iran, then, no doubt, the American people would embolden Congress to declare war. Of course, your claim that nations and individuals do not have sovereignty means that the Constitution doesn't need to be respected as the framework of the American government, eh?
Is it in our interest for Iran to have nuclear power? Perhaps not, but what really should be questioned is if it is in our interest to address these concerns by going to war and interfering in Iran's internal affairs. We cannot afford it. We are not capable of it. We shouldn't do it anyways, as there are far more effective ways to ensure that our national security is well.
Respecting Iran's right to have nuclear technology might be a good first step - saying "We realize that you are the government of your people, and we respect that, just as we are the government of the American people. We realize that you should have nuclear technology, just as we have nuclear technology. Let's find ways to work together so that we can benefit each other.".
Wait, that's nonsense, isn't it? Maybe when you're thinking through fifty years of America regarding other nations as obstacles to our "interests" that we can manpiulate to our will. No wonder the Middle East is so anti-American.
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Well, when they do come together you and your ilk say they are coerced by the uber mighty US.
Source? I don't recall saying that...
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Puppets, as it were.
So the international support for America's pursuit of those responsible for 9/11 was American coersion and the work of American puppets?
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And should we give a fuck what our enemies and competitors say? We know our friends by their shared interests.
So, America can't share interests with Iran? The concept of competitors exists... why? If you haven't noticed, the world is becoming more and more interconnected, and this idea is increasingly gathering dust, despite the efforts of the United States thusfar. Symbiotic relationships will be more prolific.
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Putting aside all of that, the international community, whatever that is, will never come together. Don't forget, damn near half the nations were on the Axis side. Just win, baby.
The international community comes together where it counts. This planet is much different than it was in the time of World War II.
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Yes it can, and we must continue to work for our interests.
Exactly. It is in our interest to stop playing empire as we have. You don't see this because you are too invested in this viewpoint.
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And as far as the counterproductive nature of the ideology I flaunt, you are a fool. Because of my "ideology" hundreds of millions of people are freed from communist slavery
So, hundreds of millions are free from communist slavery, because of the amazing defeat of the Soviets by the United States, or because their economic policies were unsustainable and they eventually fell apart?
Hhhm.... perhaps the United States should have been paying closer attention, since we're facing a very similar problem today.
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, tens of millions of Iraqis and Afghanis no longer have to deal with government oppression,
Tell that to the poppy farmers in Afghanistan. Its far too early for you to declare victory in a place like Iraq.
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Taiwan remains free.
Taiwan remains irrelevant. China could have it if it wanted it. If your only true success is protecting one island for a few years before the international community recognized the People's Republic of China, I wouldn't consider that much, especially considering the grave danger America is in today. Maybe China will barricade Hawaii from the United States and protect its right to secede from the United States of America. I'm sure you won't have a problem with that.
Go ahead, continue to throw rocks at the nests of hornets. I'm sure its in your interest, but don't go around saying it is in our interest. The American people will decide that for themselves.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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DeepDish
Stranger
Registered: 01/14/02
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Re: Questioning Of Ron Paul On Earmarks [Re: Phred]
#7810622 - 12/29/07 01:56 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Isn't Ron Paul just acting in a similar manner to Ragnar Danneskjold? If taxes are truly viewed as stolen money, then it is clear that government has no RIGHT to the loot they have stolen. It then follows that there is no contradiction between inserting provisions in a spending bill that will return some of the stolen loot to the people it was taken from and voting against the bill. The earmarks act as a safeguard against the unjust taxation of his constituents. You cannot act as though voting IN FAVOR of a bill that supports thievery is moral in any way. Personally I think Ron Paul is a bit old to run around as a pirate robbing the government and returning the money to his constituents, but in principle the two methods are very similar.
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Coaster
Baʿal



Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 33,501
Loc: Deep in the Valley
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: Questioning Of Ron Paul On Earmarks [Re: DeepDish]
#7810655 - 12/29/07 02:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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ron paul is like peter pan
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Coaster
Baʿal



Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 33,501
Loc: Deep in the Valley
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: Questioning Of Ron Paul On Earmarks [Re: DeepDish]
#7810659 - 12/29/07 02:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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ron paul is like robin hood
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Questioning Of Ron Paul On Earmarks [Re: Coaster]
#7810681 - 12/29/07 02:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Coaster said: ron paul is like robin hood
I'm pretty sure he's against stealing from the rich and giving to the poor.
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