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OfflineMahayana
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Bulk substrate looks like mud after stove top pasteurization suggestions?
    #7793239 - 12/23/07 05:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Heres the rundown. Two Reynolds oven bags were filled with cow manure/wheat straw about a quarter of the way. I added a little water to one until it was at field capacity, stuck a meat thermometer in there and sealed the bag extremely tight with several rubber bands around the meat thermometer.
Then a small towel was placed into the bottom of a large pot and the bag was placed inside on top of the towel. I proceeded to add hot water around the bag and began heating on medium setting. After 90 minutes it had finally reached 170 degrees f. The heat was reduced and this temp was maintained for 90 more minutes. Upon removing the bag the substrate now has a mud like appearance and is defiantly to wet to use. I inspected the bag very well and there were no holes to be found.
Is there any way to salvage this bag of substrate?
Now I am ready to do Bag number two but haven't added any water yet.
Right now it just contains the cow manure/ wheat straw (which was soaked overnight and strained.) any suggestions?
These two bags will be used in the same mono tub so perhaps I shouldn't add any water at all to this bag? or double bag it?
Please anybody i really need some advice.
I have worked to hard to give up now.
thanks in advance for any help. and hope you have a great holiday.


--------------------
The river of Zen is quiet,even in the waves;
the water of stability is clear, even in the waves.


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InvisibleBUDDHA_702
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Re: Bulk substrate looks like mud after stove top pasteurization suggestions? [Re: Mahayana]
    #7793250 - 12/23/07 05:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Add dry Verm


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OfflineMahayana
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Re: Bulk substrate looks like mud after stove top pasteurization suggestions? [Re: BUDDHA_702]
    #7793357 - 12/23/07 05:56 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

So your saying when I go into my clean room to spawn after it cools down to just slowly add the dry verm until its back to field capacity?
Should i sterilize this vermiculite somehow before i take it into the clean room? and if so how would i go about doing that? Is there an easier more efficient way other then pressure cooking it? because I got enough of that shit to do tonight lol. thanks.


--------------------
The river of Zen is quiet,even in the waves;
the water of stability is clear, even in the waves.


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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: Bulk substrate looks like mud after stove top pasteurization suggestions? [Re: Mahayana]
    #7793440 - 12/23/07 06:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Vermiculight can be sterilised in the oven.


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OfflineMahayana
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Re: Bulk substrate looks like mud after stove top pasteurization suggestions? [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7794107 - 12/23/07 10:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

thanks for the help but ,fuck it, the 2nd bag filled completely up with water and it was completely sealed and no holes , for some reason stove top pasteurization is not working , I'm tired of this bullshit i think I'm hanging it up , i followed others instructions to a tee and it failed this is bullshit .......... waste of time


--------------------
The river of Zen is quiet,even in the waves;
the water of stability is clear, even in the waves.


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InvisibleMojo
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Re: Bulk substrate looks like mud after stove top pasteurization suggestions? [Re: Mahayana]
    #7794132 - 12/23/07 10:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Don't be a pussy and quit talkin nonsense. You know you can’t hang it up now...

From now on, stove top pasteurize in pillow cases, and squeeze to the proper moisture content.


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InvisiblePremedman1
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Re: Bulk substrate looks like mud after stove top pasteurization suggestions? [Re: Mojo]
    #7794141 - 12/23/07 10:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mojo said:
Don't be a pussy and quit talkin nonsense.  You know you can’t hang it up now...




:dielaughing:


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Build a man a fire, he is warm for the night. Set a man on fire, he is warm for the rest of his life.


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OfflineMahayana
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Re: Bulk substrate looks like mud after stove top pasteurization suggestions? [Re: Premedman1]
    #7794845 - 12/24/07 07:01 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i didn't mean hanging the hole thing up, just pasteurization , next week an investment will be made,
impulse sealer , already got filter patch bags might as well just sterilize the substrate.
but fuck the stove motherfucker ain't good for nothing but macaroni .
and the pillowcase method causes the loss of too much nutrients to meet my specs.


--------------------
The river of Zen is quiet,even in the waves;
the water of stability is clear, even in the waves.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Bulk substrate looks like mud after stove top pasteurization suggestions? [Re: Mahayana]
    #7794853 - 12/24/07 07:13 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

After 90 minutes it had finally reached 170 degrees f. The heat was reduced and this temp was maintained for 90 more minutes.




I hope that was measured from the center of the substrate, not the water in the kettle. I'd also keep it between 140F and 160F.

You'll want to get your material to the proper moisture content before loading into bags or jars. Let the substrate sit for half an hour, and then re-adjust to field capacity. Oven bags are for cooking turkeys in the oven. They're not suitable for stovetop pasteurization, so use jars or filter patch bags, which don't need to be sealed first.

Don't use a rag on the bottom of the pot. Use jar lids, perlite, rocks, etc., to get at least 3/4" separation from the hot stove burner and your product.

you can use the 'search posts' feature along with my username to find my pasteurization tek.
RR


--------------------
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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Invisiblejeetered
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Re: Bulk substrate looks like mud after stove top pasteurization suggestions? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7794896 - 12/24/07 08:04 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

verm doesn't need sterilized it's inert and inorganic, also, u can use a clean pillow case to squeeze out water to bring to field capacity.


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OfflineMahayana
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Re: Bulk substrate looks like mud after stove top pasteurization suggestions? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7794907 - 12/24/07 08:08 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yes sir I made sure i was measuring the core temp , i was trying to get it to 165 f and it ended up at 170 before i knew it I didn't realize 140 was acceptable for pasteurization. Where I read it stated 165 and not to go above 180 F, but It wasn't your tek I was following.
I got the moisture content right when i loaded it into the bag but neglected to let it sit awhile and noticed the compost wasn't holding the water very well, I should have added some verm to my sub I guess to remedy that problem.
Also there are so many teks on here using oven bags but I agree with you now, they are indeed only good for cooking turkey lol.
Jar lids huh? I didn't think of that I used a darn towel.
I'm going to give it another shot with a filter patch bag, I have one, and I'll use jars for the rest that i need per your advice. thanks again. I'm gonna purchase your video next time I get paid , I'm sure it'll be a great investment plus I'd like to try gourmet cultivation when I get better at this. thanks my friend and have a great holiday.


--------------------
The river of Zen is quiet,even in the waves;
the water of stability is clear, even in the waves.


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OfflineMahayana
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Re: Bulk substrate looks like mud after stove top pasteurization suggestions? [Re: jeetered]
    #7794917 - 12/24/07 08:17 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

jeetered said:
verm doesn't need sterilized it's inert and inorganic, also, u can use a clean pillow case to squeeze out water to bring to field capacity.



I've already stated It is not my preference to use a pillow case and squeeze out nutrients, there are better ways of doing this, for instance RR's advice is more what I was looking for.


--------------------
The river of Zen is quiet,even in the waves;
the water of stability is clear, even in the waves.


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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Bulk substrate looks like mud after stove top pasteurization suggestions? [Re: Mahayana]
    #7795039 - 12/24/07 09:26 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mahayana said:
thanks for the help but ,fuck it, the 2nd bag filled completely up with water and it was completely sealed and no holes , for some reason stove top pasteurization is not working , I'm tired of this bullshit i think I'm hanging it up , i followed others instructions to a tee and it failed this is bullshit .......... waste of time




dude you had it
until you added water to your pot
i used exactly the same tech my first time with bulk but this is what i changed it to before it worked

fuck the oven bags, your straw DEFFINITELY poked a hole in your bag and that's why it filled up with water, it happens every single time with oven bags, they suck ass ass for straw.

just use ZIPLOCK freezer bags, yes ziplock bags, if you don't take them above 200degrees they will work terrific

you'll need some sort of aluminum pan (they sell huge oven liners at bi-lo for under 1$)
if you just take out your oven rack and line the rack with aluminum foil that should be fine

ok so preheat your oven to 200F
load up your bags
then stuff them into your oven and set the timer for an hour
check the temp, then reduce about 10-15degrees, set the timer for another hour, then depending on how much substrate you have, your substrate should be somewhere around 150-160F

then set the oven to 170 and leave for about 4-5 hours, w/e you have time for


--------------------


Edited by anarchOi (12/24/07 09:28 AM)


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Bulk substrate looks like mud after stove top pasteurization suggestions? [Re: anarchOi]
    #7795109 - 12/24/07 09:53 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Pasteurization should not be longer than 90 minutes or too many of the beneficial organisms will be killed off, thus leaving the substrate open for contaminants later. Water is a much better conductor of heat than air, thus water or steam pasteurization the preferred method. Water or steam will conduct heat into the substrate fastest, thus allowing you to more precisely control the total amount of time at pasteurization temperature.

You can use zip-loc bags in hot water too. They work very well.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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InvisibleSillicybin
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Re: Bulk substrate looks like mud after stove top pasteurization suggestions? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7795241 - 12/24/07 10:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

If your substrate gets over-saturated, all you do is:
- sanitize your hands or put on some latex gloves
- grab two handfuls
- squeeze the hell out of it over the sink until barely any water comes out
- load it into your tray, fluffing it out as you put drop in
- grab the next two handfuls and repeat

Pillowcase method can also help to get much of the water out so you don't have to do as much squeezing.


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OfflineMahayana
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Re: Bulk substrate looks like mud after stove top pasteurization suggestions? [Re: Sillicybin]
    #7795618 - 12/24/07 01:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

How many times do I have to state in this thread that I will not use pillowcases because i would in fact be squeezing out nutrients that I wish too keep in the sub..... and I agree with RR about going beyond 90 mins , its going to kill off the friendlies, and the oven is using dry heat, the rapid movement of the water molecules is a much better conductor.
Zip lock bags huh....I did not know that ....thanx.


--------------------
The river of Zen is quiet,even in the waves;
the water of stability is clear, even in the waves.


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Invisiblestinkbuttdog
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Re: Bulk substrate looks like mud after stove top pasteurization suggestions? [Re: Mahayana]
    #7796093 - 12/24/07 04:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Where did you hear that you'd be squeezing out most of the nutrients? You're the first person I've ever seen who said this... link please.


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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Bulk substrate looks like mud after stove top pasteurization suggestions? [Re: stinkbuttdog]
    #7797290 - 12/25/07 01:56 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

can you guys really get your substrate up to 170-175F within a 90 minute cook time and actually cook it for 90 mins? then what about the many hours it takes to dissapate the heat?
i know that's impossible

but seriously, how long usually is your pastuerization procedure RR?
would it be better to only sustain the ideal pastuerization temp for like 30 mins? as in, is it a rule that pastuerizing too little is better than too much(even if critical temps aren't reached)?


--------------------


Edited by anarchOi (12/25/07 01:57 AM)


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OfflineMahayana
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Re: Bulk substrate looks like mud after stove top pasteurization suggestions? [Re: stinkbuttdog]
    #7804890 - 12/27/07 05:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

stinkbuttdog said:
Where did you hear that you'd be squeezing out most of the nutrients? You're the first person I've ever seen who said this... link please.




http://www.shroomery.org/8393/Oven-Bag-Pasteurization-Pictorial

loss of nutrients is in the first paragraph, just one of hundreds of places its mentioned and seems to make sense if you just thought about it for a second.


--------------------
The river of Zen is quiet,even in the waves;
the water of stability is clear, even in the waves.


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OfflineMahayana
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Re: Bulk substrate looks like mud after stove top pasteurization suggestions? [Re: Mahayana]
    #7804904 - 12/27/07 05:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

What about putting a rubber maid inside another of the same size.
bagging up the substrate and placing it in the containers, boiling two large pots of water ,allowing them to cool to 170 degrees f ,and placing the lid on and allowing to sit for a few hours?
I did a search post for pasteurization tek with your name RR and thats basically all I could find. Minus the water temp and time factors.


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The river of Zen is quiet,even in the waves;
the water of stability is clear, even in the waves.


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