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Offlineranonar
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Easiest cultivation method ever!
    #7789758 - 12/22/07 04:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

OK I know there are numerous claims for methods which promise a super easy method to produce a psychedelic dose. But this is even more simple (and faster) than growing sclerotia on grass seed.

I have eaten two blueing mycelial mats of Ps. azurescens, each grown in a 250ml jar containing 100ml of malt agar (60grams of malt sugar, 2 grams of marmite, 2 grams of agar in one liter of boiling water, divided over ten 250mljars, each containing 100ml). Three weeks after inoculating the surface of the sterilized media, each inoculated with a colonized woodchip of azure mycelium and incubated at roomtemperature, all agars were completely covered with a thick mat of mycelium. The mycelium mat of two jars was about 40grams of wet mycelial mat in total and plenty for a very noticable effect to say the least.

With cubes I have never had that, and I have also never had that when I sampled some grain spawn. The trick to get thick mycelial mats is to use 2 grams of agar per liter insted of 20, and the method to get blueing mycelium of azurescens seems to be in the marmite.


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Offlineeman113
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: ranonar]
    #7789787 - 12/22/07 05:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

How was it compared to the same in wet cube mushies.


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Offlineranonar
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: eman113]
    #7789872 - 12/22/07 05:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"How was it compared to the same in wet cube mushies"

Definately more powerful than 1 gram dried of cubes, which is my treshold to see the paintings on the wall move.

I am baffled. Is this a phreak effect or is this real? IF this works the next time I am going for a PanCyan mycelial mat on 'soft' agar (PanCyan grows even faster than azure but is more blueing).

I really do hope that more people here want to try this out and post their experiences with soft agars (2g/l)


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Offlinenavyseals101
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: ranonar]
    #7790000 - 12/22/07 05:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

^ try using a few gallons instead of litres. Would that work?


--------------------
"Ten thousand flowers in spring
the moon in autumn,
a cool breeze in summer,
snow in winter.
If your mind isn't clouded by unnecessary things,
this is the best season of your life."
            -wumen


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InvisibleDebuteMachine

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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: navyseals101]
    #7790034 - 12/22/07 05:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I just really can't understand your post. You are eating woodchips?


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Offlineranonar
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: navyseals101]
    #7790050 - 12/22/07 05:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"try using a few gallons instead of litres. Would that work?"

search for my other posts for the answer... In theory yes but in practice you get a bigger contam risk if you increase the surface of the medium. So single jars, each containing 100ml and requring one inoculation, look perfect to me. Every liter of soft agar medium will probably enough for some 200 grams of wet mycelium mat!


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Offlineranonar
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: ranonar]
    #7790058 - 12/22/07 06:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

No I am not eating woodchips. I used a single woodchip to inoculate each agar culture. And after harvesting the mats I didn't eat the inoculum but only the mats.


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OfflineDraigan
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: ranonar]
    #7790088 - 12/22/07 06:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Im very curious as to what you are talking about. Maybe, if your not busy, you can explain it as if you were explaining it to a very slow person. lol :smile:


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Offlineranonar
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: Draigan]
    #7790137 - 12/22/07 06:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"Im very curious as to what you are talking about. Maybe, if your not busy, you can explain it as if you were explaining it to a very slow person"

OK. I put 2 grams of agar, 60 grams of malt sugar (glucose/dextrose would probably also work) and 2 grams of marmite in a pan, add 1 liter of cold water, bring it to a boil and stir/dissove everything. Then I add ten ml of 3 percent hydrogen peroxide, and divide the contents over ten 250ml jars (100ml each). No glove box needed! Allow to cool down everything until the contents are cool to the touch and soldified into a kind of pudding. Add a single azurescens colonized woodchip to the agar surface in each jar by (using a flame-sterilized pair of tweezers for each chip). Close the lid on each jar loosely and allow them to stand for 3-4 weeks at roomtemperature. All jars now have a thick, blueing mycelial mat of 20 grams each. Eat two mats minus the woodchip which is used for inoculation. That is all.


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OfflineMYSTIQUE
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: ranonar]
    #7790299 - 12/22/07 07:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Cool idea but its kinda gross to eat a mat. Why not throw it in some 95% heat a little, let it sit and then drain it off threw a shirt or sock . Take whats there and let it evaporate to a drinkable amount. Its cool idea just need to make it more palatable even a tea wouldn't sound so nasty.Could take and squeeze the juice out and make kool-aid or something too and from the sounds of the color of the mat you could get some good blue juice out of those.


--------------------
Dont know what the fuck I just said? READ THIS
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Offlinetonyshroom
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: MYSTIQUE]
    #7790312 - 12/22/07 07:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

got any pic of you idea/ finish product


--------------------
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InvisibleDebuteMachine

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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: tonyshroom]
    #7790373 - 12/22/07 08:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yea man. This is a completely new tek. You should back it up with a more thought out explanation and some pictures. I am very interested.


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OfflineMYSTIQUE
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: DebuteMachine]
    #7790395 - 12/22/07 08:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

A new Tek? Not really Its a good idea but if you look into this you will see its already been done just to a totally finished product in the main cultivation info. The new mix sounds good for the agar but its not a totally new idea. No disrespect Ranonar.


--------------------
Dont know what the fuck I just said? READ THIS
http://www.shroomery.org/5122/The-Shroomery-Mushroom-Glossary
I ain't a hippy but I'm covered in dirt                         
Sippin lots of mushroom tea in a tye-dye shirt
Chasin' the Grateful Dead, no shoes on my feet
Beggin' in the parking lot for something to eat,

:onfire:DO NOT USE FIRE IN YOUR GLOVE BOX!!!!!!!:onfire:


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: MYSTIQUE]
    #7790568 - 12/22/07 09:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I wouldn't eat a soggy mycelial mat either.  :scat:

But even so, nice system.


--------------------
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Offlineranonar
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: Nibin]
    #7791466 - 12/23/07 02:44 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"Yea man. This is a completely new tek."

Not new but near completely overlooked. Many people have tried eating their colonized agar media but this has no psychedelic effect because the mycelium only grows a very thin layer on media which contain 15-20 g/l of agar. Drinking liquid cultures has a similar drawback (not enough biomass).

But nice thick mats do form on soft agar (2g/l). And if you do not like to eat the mat you can easily pluck it from its medium, wash the water off, cut it in pieces, put it in a teabag and make tea (or bacardi blue rum).


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OfflineThe shroomy 1
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: ranonar]
    #7791587 - 12/23/07 05:24 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Oh hell, I'm happy with my Tea.  That seems to fall in the same catagory as those that go through the trouble of making a mycelium shake.  GROSS!
That's just me:rolleyes:


--------------------


AMU Q&A thread.


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Offlineblackout
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: Nibin] * 1
    #15425608 - 11/26/11 09:42 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Just found this old thread, surprised it got so little attention.
Quote:

Nibin said:
I wouldn't eat a soggy mycelial mat either.


The mats could be dried out.

There was a more detailed thread here
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7680813#7680813

cubensis works fine too, this was the yeild
Quote:

After incubation for 52 days at 24 centigrade in the dark, there are obtained 452 grams of dried fungal material, i.e. 22.6 grams per litre from a batch of 20 litres. The active substance is obtained from the fungal material in the manner described in Example 3. Yield: 1083 milligrams of pure crystalline psilocybin and 45 milligrams of psilocin.



This was from a 6% malt extract gel (with other additives). So just over 1gram of actives were produced, if your typical cube is 1% actives this is equivalent to 100g of dry cubes from 20L of gel. So this is like 5g of dry cubes per litre of gel. If you are putting 100ml in a half pint jar you could be getting the equivalent of 0.5g dry cubes in each.

This 0.5g per jar might not sound a lot but remember the jars can be totally stacked up, so less room needed, and of course less maintenance and additional equipment is needed etc.

I also wonder if many actives were lost during extraction. The yeild was 450g dry material which I equated to 100g dry cubes, so you could say the myc is only 1/4-1/5th as strong as the fruits. But if extraction was not efficient more would have been got (you could be eating the dry myc). Maybe there are other studies using the same extraction from fruits so you could get a better idea. e.g. if they got 450g dry cube fruits and got 2g actives then we could estimate the myc as, being half as strong as the fruits.

The studies talk of up to 10% sugar content so we might get more per litre. Also you could fit 200ml in a half pint jar so would this double the yeild?

I can see no real info about the ratio of surface area to volume. I would guess the more area the better.

If the H2O2 method really does work (I would have guessed it is too risky for contams) then there are loads of options due to no heating being needed. You could fill 2L PET soda bottles, fill them with about 1L and put them on their side to maximise exposed surface area, plug up the pouring hole with filter material. You could get 5L water containers and dump half the water out and pour in a concentrated malt mix with H2O2, this would minimise exposure to air. Some people have reported bottled water as being pretty clean to begin with. The concentrated sugar syrup could be boiled up really well, with no need to heat the final container (PET cannot withstand the heat).

If surface area ratio to volume is not so important we can grow upright. As the gel is easy and cheap to make you might get a better yeild from the same container. e.g. the study got 22.6g per litre of dry myc, I would guess they used a large surface area so you could expect 22.6g from your 2L bottle rested on its side with 1L. But if you could get say 30g from the same 2L bottle with 2L of gel in it, standing up with a smaller surface area, then it might be better. You have dropped your biological efficiency, but you get more yeild in the same space, and the upright bottles would be easier to store. The extra sugar cost is minimal.

Some sort of stackable trays could also be used, or 25L beer fermentation buckets. If contams were an issue even with H2O2 then the container could be the sterilization chamber as there is no need to PC. I suggested this before as ways of doing bulk LC or to fractionally sterilze non-exploding grains like RGS.

You would have a submersible stainless steel element in a fermentation bucket, put the ingredients in and boil it directly in the bucket with the lid on, and a filter. You have an injection port it is one giant 25L agar plate. There are many ways to do this, some home brewers can call these "keggles", where they convert beer kegs to kettles. YOu can buy ready made ones http://www.vinotheque.ca/english/equipment/equipment.cfm?equipment=294&category=Beer%20brewing%20equipment . You could make a clear window to keep an eye on it while growing. Many fermentation containers are translucent. This would be discrete enough too as you could tell people it is just beer you are brewing, you could brew beer alongside it to keep up appearances if needed. You can get brew belts and brew mats for homebrew which heat to cubensis incubation temps (if you need heating at all).


Here is another thread though
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4085512
Quote:

The mycelial tissue was found to produce psilocybin without having to go through the fruiting process... Even through the mycelial tissue grown from the Mexican species contained only half as much psilocybin (0.1-0.2% of dry weight) as the mushrooms did, high yields (20g/liter) along with the easy and rapid cultivation of mycelial tissue more than compensated for the lower psylocybin content


half as much would be fine by me.

BUT
Quote:

The submerged culture produced the highest amounts of biomass, followed by the surface cultures on soft agar (0.2%). But under both conditions the mycelia did not produce measurable amounts of alkaloids.


but they harvested after only 14 days, it may take longer for the actives to develop, many report stronger fruits from longer colonisation times. Tamp did grow stones and was active. It would be very easy to harvest sclerotia too.


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Offlineblackout
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: blackout]
    #15440985 - 11/29/11 04:48 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I was thinking you could probably make a semi solid solution of BRF with water to grow the myc on. It could have sugars added, they mention up to 10% malt extract, I imagine this could be added to the BRF too so it would be loaded with nutrient.

This would make harvesting sclerotia far easier. Which jogged my memory about sporeworks old "Philospher's Bags"

Quote:

Uninoculated Philospher's Bag - Consistancy is like modeling clay and appears to consist mostly of rice. Syringe passed through the injection port and easily into the substrate. When the inoculate was added it flowed out of the substrate and into the space between the substrate block and the bag. I used a full 10 cc syringe since I had it available and I wanted to speed things up. A few spots of growth on the surface of the substrate were visible in 4 days at 85F and quickly spread. It reminds me of mycelium growing on the surface of an agar plate.



Sounds like it had a very high moisture content, and the comment about the agar plate sounds like the mycelium mats discussed here.


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Offlineblackout
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: blackout]
    #15440988 - 11/29/11 04:49 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I was thinking you could probably make a semi solid solution of BRF with water to grow the myc on, to a similar consistency as the soft agar. It could have sugars added, they mention up to 10% malt extract, I imagine this could be added to the BRF too so it would be loaded with nutrient. And no need for agar, which some cannot get easily.

This would make harvesting sclerotia far easier. Which jogged my memory about sporeworks old "Philospher's Bags", specifically for sclerotia.

Quote:

Workman said:Uninoculated Philospher's Bag - Consistancy is like modeling clay and appears to consist mostly of rice. Syringe passed through the injection port and easily into the substrate. When the inoculate was added it flowed out of the substrate and into the space between the substrate block and the bag. I used a full 10 cc syringe since I had it available and I wanted to speed things up. A few spots of growth on the surface of the substrate were visible in 4 days at 85F and quickly spread. It reminds me of mycelium growing on the surface of an agar plate.



Sounds like it had a high moisture content, and the comment about the agar plate sounds like the mycelium mats discussed here.

Perhaps sporeworks went easy on the liquid so it would transport better in the post.






Edited by blackout (11/29/11 05:08 PM)


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OfflineSKrink
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: blackout]
    #15441672 - 11/29/11 07:03 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I remember reading about this active mycelial mat method in the Anarchist Cookbook.
It said to dry out the mat, powder and put in gelcaps.


--------------------
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InvisibleMunchauzen
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: SKrink]
    #15441963 - 11/29/11 08:06 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SKrink said:
I remember reading about this active mycelial mat method in the Anarchist Cookbook.
It said to dry out the mat, powder and put in gelcaps.




mycelium only contains psilocin, which doesn't last through drying. those gelcaps wouldn't do a damn thing, I'm pretty sure. you have to eat the mats wet to injest psilocin, which immediately turns into psilocybin in your system.

EDIT: psilocybin turns to psilocin in your body, not the other way around.


Edited by Munchauzen (11/30/11 11:17 AM)


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: Munchauzen]
    #15442149 - 11/29/11 08:36 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

u sure about that?


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Invisiblefishy1
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: k00laid]
    #15442284 - 11/29/11 09:08 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

For what its worth...an old but interesting read.
http://www.fanaticus.com/forensic.htm
I have always been a skeptic of the potency of mycelium. But if it works, I guess the study is bunk.


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OfflineBugler Boy
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: fishy1]
    #15442474 - 11/29/11 10:02 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Thread title is misleading...deffinetly not the "easiest cultivation ever!"  :wowz:

Does sound kinda interesting though, is this your main type of cultivation or is just a side experiment with mono's or such too? If not ... :dumblol:


--------------------
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OfflineIcesyn
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: Bugler Boy]
    #15442513 - 11/29/11 10:11 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

That was quite the opposite of what I was expecting. I almost thought it was a joke.

Interdasting.
:dancer:
:awehigh:


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InvisibleMunchauzen
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: k00laid]
    #15444386 - 11/30/11 11:13 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
u sure about that?




edit: my bad I got the psilocin/psilocybin thing backwards. psilocin is the active agent in your body after you injest psilocybin.


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Offlineblackout
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: Bugler Boy]
    #15445059 - 11/30/11 01:37 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Munchauzen said:
mycelium only contains psilocin, which doesn't last through drying.




it was dried
Quote:

After incubation for 52 days at 24 centigrade in the dark, there are obtained 452 grams of dried fungal material, i.e. 22.6 grams per litre from a batch of 20 litres. The active substance is obtained from the fungal material in the manner described in Example 3. Yield: 1083 milligrams of pure crystalline psilocybin and 45 milligrams of psilocin.








Quote:

Bugler Boy said:
Thread title is misleading...deffinetly not the "easiest cultivation ever!"  :wowz:

Does sound kinda interesting though, is this your main type of cultivation or is just a side experiment with mono's or such too? If not ... :dumblol:


Its the easiest method I have heard of, regular sclerotia growing used to be the easiest I have heard of, but if this works then harvesting the sclerotia is going to be much easier. And not need for a pressure cooker either.

You might think its dumb but obviously Sandoz didn't. You did see that Roger Heim & Albert Hofmann were listed on the patent right?


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InvisibleMunchauzen
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: blackout]
    #15445259 - 11/30/11 02:16 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

JESUS CHRIST I JUST REALIZED THIS IS A 3 YEAR OLD THREAD
:oldthread:

and guess what, its 3 years old and nobody is doing it today. WONDER WHY


Edited by Munchauzen (11/30/11 02:17 PM)


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Offlineblackout
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: Munchauzen]
    #15445569 - 11/30/11 03:25 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Munchauzen said:
WONDER WHY



I expect 99% of growers are ignorant to it, let alone tried it.

3 years is nothing, the patent for this method was patented in 1958. If you read the other thread I linked you would realise what happened.


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: blackout]
    #15445840 - 11/30/11 04:15 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

blackout said:

I expect 99% of growers are ignorant to it, let alone tried it.





i think you are wrong about this.


--------------------
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: blackout]
    #15445874 - 11/30/11 04:23 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Grow fruits, lets have a serious discussion about them, and forget about hydro-shrooming.

Seriously, nobody is going to flip out about a post where someone just grew mycelium and ate it.


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Offlineblackout
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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: Munchauzen] * 1
    #15446000 - 11/30/11 04:53 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
i think you are wrong about this.


Well I have searched many, many times over the years about various "mycelium harvesting" and mycelium extraction techniques, read loads of threads, and this is the first time I heard of this method. Adam Gottlieb's flawed book seems to have made people dismiss the concept.

I have been searching since and have come up with very little else, just 1 thread on mycotopia.

If you think I am wrong have you found others discussing this method, if so please post links.


Quote:

Munchauzen said:
Seriously, nobody is going to flip out about a post where someone just grew mycelium and ate it.



I am beginning to wonder if you guys are as blind & ignorant to this as Gottlieb apparently was.


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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: blackout]
    #15446057 - 11/30/11 05:09 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15189807/fpart/1/vc/1

this guy stopped posting too. I guess he gave up when it didn't work either.


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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: blackout]
    #15446825 - 11/30/11 07:46 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

:shrug: ive tried all sorts of BRF cake extractions.

and even a mycelium on agar extraction.

i was not impressed with any of them, but these are all with p. cubensis.


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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: ranonar]
    #15449724 - 12/01/11 01:47 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

You are both completely missing it, read slowly
Quote:

ranonar said:The trick to get thick mycelial mats is to use 2 grams of agar per liter insted of 20




again I expect 99% of growers are ignorant to it, let alone tried it. Please prove me wrong, like you said I was....


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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: blackout]
    #15449896 - 12/01/11 02:44 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

This doesn't sound easier than a simple PF tek or growing stones.

It also sounds absolutely disgusting to eat.

Interesting sort of, but not something I'm going to go out of my way to try.


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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: Beefy1]
    #15449944 - 12/01/11 02:56 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

This is just getting ridiculous at this stage. Again here is the other post I linked

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7680813

If you want to stay in the dark don't bother reading it.


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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: blackout]
    #15450670 - 12/01/11 05:23 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
i think...



Quote:

blackout said:
Please prove me wrong, like you said I was....




im just stating my opinion, read more slowly. :hehehe:


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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: blackout]
    #15450690 - 12/01/11 05:27 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

You own stock in an agar company or something?

The key that makes PF tek the easiest for new growers is the fact that you don't need a pressure cooker.

  along with the fact that when people want to do mushrooms,  they normally like to eat an actual mushroom,  not a tea or a mat of myc.


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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: Beefy1]
    #15454600 - 12/02/11 01:32 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

k00laid said:
i think...



Quote:

blackout said:
Please prove me wrong, like you said I was....




im just stating my opinion, read more slowly. :hehehe:



An opinion that you can provide ZERO evidence to back up, not even a single link to suggest others have ever tried it. Stay ignorant.


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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: blackout]
    #15455457 - 12/02/11 04:30 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)



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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: k00laid]
    #15457739 - 12/03/11 05:39 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Seen it all before, & as I expected, none were doing it.

This thread has over 1000 views now and not one other person has said they did it or even heard of the key point before. Its weird nobody has tried it with such big names behind the original patent.

I have made some myself so will give it a go once I get my agar plates going.


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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: blackout]
    #15457761 - 12/03/11 05:50 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

blackout said:
Seen it all before, & as I expected, none were doing it.





you're use of pronouns is confusing me.

by "it" do you mean just using agar to extract the myc as opposed to a BRF cake?


if so, that would mean you are asserting that agar grows more active alkaloids than does a BRF cake, which is simply not true.

im hoping this is a language barrier, but i dont understand how this is different than all the other links ive already posted here.


please help me understand, im being genuine.


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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: k00laid]
    #15464658 - 12/04/11 02:27 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
by "it" do you mean just using agar to extract the myc as opposed to a BRF cake?


I mean using semi-solid agar, one tenth the usual amount. I thought it was obvious from the first post that this was the big difference, and even more ovbvious when I quoted it and said to read slowly.

reading threads a PF jar typically produces 4-6g dry. You can fit 200ml in a similar size jar which the Sandoz guys got 22.6g dry per litre which would be 4.5g dry per 200ml in the jar. From reading it seems it is about half strength so ~2.25g of normal dry cube fruits. It seems preferable to me on several counts,
1. Space, though the yeild per jar is less overall I need less space overall as there is no fruiting chamber. So if I grew in my usual 15L incubator I can get more actives.
2. Cheaper, substrate is cheaper for me. I have boiled up my 0.2% agar and it is not that thick, I do expect rice flour or potato or corn starch etc could be used to make a thicker broth which can support a myc mat.
3. Effort- far less work invovled for me overall. No need to keep an eye on it if you are out of town for days or weeks at a time.
4. Equpiment, less stuff needed.
5. Harvesting, sclerotia harvesting would be a breeze, so is a cube myc mat, rather than having to check & pic shrooms over many days/weeks you do it all in one go.

Of course it is far more boring than growing actual shrooms, and no spores, though I expect you might get shrooms growing on the mats and could use them for prints. Though many growers buy new syringes each time anyway.


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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: blackout]
    #15464928 - 12/04/11 03:13 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

blackout said:
reading threads a PF jar typically produces 4-6g dry




maybe for first time growers.

but people who have got their feet wet can get easily 10 grams dry on the first flush.


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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: k00laid]
    #15505200 - 12/12/11 02:32 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)



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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: wildernessjunkie]
    #15505301 - 12/12/11 02:53 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

From that paper
Quote:

The first signs of fruiting bodies were observed to be from 19 to 25 days in the samples that were grown under indirect light with the average being 21 days.


And these proved to be active. In the first post he harvested after 3 weeks, and is growing a strain with known stronger fruit bodies.

In the soft agar tests I read about it I think all were grown for longer than 21 days.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7967658

another study
Quote:

Psilocybin was also found in the cultured non-bluing mycelia of P. samuiensis and varied from 0.24% to 0.32% dry weight.




I think time/maturation is important, you can see an active thread in the advanced section about incubating longer for more potent fruits.


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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: blackout]
    #15505371 - 12/12/11 03:06 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

That was also a different species. I believe that paper was dealing with P. Cubensis.

Just because P. Cubensis has negligible Psilocybin content in the mycelium doesn't necessarily mean that this occurs in all species. I think that mycelium from significantly stronger species may be a different story. There is only one way to find out though, and I dont think that it will be much effort to do so. Hardest part is obtaining the prints.

I think there is some merit in this idea. But not with this idea paired with cubensis.


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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: wildernessjunkie]
    #15505907 - 12/12/11 05:01 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

The cubensis turned out fairly OK in the study though. But I do imagine there is an ideal strain, an aggressive one with quick turnaround would be good. A user called Baby Hitler talks of eating azure myc here http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum4&Number=1733714

Azure would colonize wood which is good for long term storage. Though I guess most will colonize wood which would be good if you have no intention of ever fruiting it.

I will hopefully have clean cubensis myc growing soon.

This is an old thread of mine, I spoke of grinding up colonised grain to maximise its surface area.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4316085

quote below from a "trusted cultivator"
Quote:

waixingren said:
3 days ago i tripped off of a pint of mycelium. it was a bitch to get the myc off the birdseed. but it worked. i had a few extra jars laying around so i figured i'd try. hardest trip of my life. i'll be posting a thread about it later along with a trip report.


broke apart each half pint into its own quart jar, break it up really good. i used oj instead of cranberry juice. filled it just enough to cover all the grain. closed the lid tight and shook it to hell. shook some more, shook again. strained it out into a glass, poured it back into the jar and shook some more. whole process took me about 20 minutes. by the time i was done the oj just looked a little more cloudy, was still yellow and still tasted like oj but with a very slight mushroom hint. i didnt think it would work but i was suprised as hell to have my first level 5 trip off it.





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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: blackout]
    #15507620 - 12/12/11 10:03 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Everyone always focuses on Psilocybin and Psilocin, I wonder if Beaocistin (sp?) or Norbeaocistin could have played a role in that?


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Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: wildernessjunkie]
    #15511199 - 12/13/11 03:25 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baeocystin
Quote:

in the book Magic Mushrooms Around the World, author Jochen Gartz reports being aware of a study in which "10 mg of baeocystin were found to be about as psychoactive as a similar amount of psilocybin.



hmmmm.


Paul Stamets and Jochen Gartz A new caerulescent Psilocybe from the Pacific Coast of Northwestern America

Quote:

Research by Gartz (1989) showed alkaloid synthesis in Psilocybe cubensis (Earle) Singer is suppressed when the mycelium is grown using agar media supplemented with more than 10% mal sugar. Psilocybe azurescens reacts similarly. Research has also shown that alkaloid content is generally low in the mycelia compared to the fruitbodies. With Psilocybe cubensis, the main alkaloid synthesis occurs during the differentiation of the mycelia to the fruitbodies (Gartz & Muller, 1989)



again shows it needs maturing.


Quote:

Table IV Variation of the amounts of alkaloids in the mycelium of Psilocybe azurescens depending on the concentration of malt extract in solidified agar (1,5%) after 3 weeks of colonization.

1% Malt Extract: 0.31% Psilocybin dry weight, 0.12% Psilocin, 0.12% Baeocyst.
2% Malt Extract: 0.25% Psilocybin dry weight, 0.09% Psilocin, 0.08% Baeocyst.
3% Malt Extract: 0.28% Psilocybin dry weight, 0.08% Psilocin, 0.05% Baeocyst.
4% Malt Extract: 0.27% Psilocybin dry weight, 0.04% Psilocin, 0.03% Baeocyst.
5% Malt Extract: 0.25% Psilocybin dry weight, 0.02% Psilocybin, 0% Baeocystin
6% Malt Extract: 0.18% Psilocybin dry weight, 0% Psilocin, 0% Baeocystin
8% Malt Extract: 0.05% Psilocybin dry weight, 0% Psilocin, 0% Baeocystin
10% Malt Extract: At and above 10% malt extract, the mycelium is non-blueing.



So for people who want it potent as possible then 1% malt extract seems the best (i.e. those who want to eat as little as possible). But I think we can presume you get more growth on higher amounts, but does anybody have any idea if it would be proportional. If it was a linear increase i.e. 6% gives 6 times the amount of myc as 1% then we can figure out the highest yield of alkaloids per volume/jar.


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Do the bump [Re: blackout]
    #19877322 - 04/21/14 10:19 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

The greatest additive (AFAIK) to agar for the production of a bueing mycelial mat -which is pretty convincing proof of its activity- is classic British marmite. Especially for azurescens and PanCyan. Get a 125g jar of marmite, scoop it out, dissolve the contents in 250ml water or so, bottle it up and sterilize it. Now one ml of this liquid contains 0.5g Marmite. Use 4ml of it per liter of medium.

So for a half filled pint jar (250ml) you would mix 15grams of maltose (dextrose works almost as good BTW), half a gram of powdered agar, one ml of the above mentioned marmite solution and 250ml of cold water.

Bring it to a boil in a microwave in a plastic -pp- mixing bowl. As soon as it begins to boil open the microwave and add 2ml of 3 percent hydrogen peroxide to a waiting clean pint jar (Ball), preferably with tyvek lid or so. Pour the contents of the mixing bowl in the pint jar. Put the lid on it and allow it to cool down.

Now place a wedge or grain of clean mycelium in the middle of the semisolid agar in the pint jar (use sterilized utensils, flame sterilized is fine). You can do that in open air thanx to the peroxide. Put on the lid and wait. Panaeolus cyanescens (Copelandia) and to a bit lesser degree Ps. azurescens are prime candidates for blueing mats. Do not harvest the mats before they have covered the complete surface of the agar. It is at that moment that the mycelium 'feels' than nutrients are beginning to drop down and for some reason that boosts blueing.

Thus produced mats are not really usable for lc purposes because it are surface cultures and -especially in the case of azurescens- very difficult to tear apart, leave alone pass a needle. Also because they are grown without stirring. The great virtue of mycelial mats is their biological efficiency. I have grown several mats in 250ml jars (each containing 100ml malt-marmite-soft agar) which converted near half of the weight of their ingredients into dry fungal biomass. On grains or BRF/vermiculite I can not get it better than a conversion of 17% or so (dry ingredients > dry mats).

I think mycelial mats can be useful for the production of many kinds of medicinals which mushroom mycelia produce in their cells. Just harvest and grind up the mycelia. Other mycelia (shiitake, paspali, etc.) may produce medicinal compounds and excrete it in the liquid (similar to the yellow liquid which many species of mycelium produce). For those occasions you might just drink or extract the liquid when the mycelium is removed.


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soft agar vs. liquid culture, solid agar, grains [Re: ranonar]
    #19877845 - 04/21/14 12:45 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

First: it is a joy to re-visit this thread once in a few years and watch the development of knowledge in practice!

One thing which many people, myself included, almost always overlook is that the mycelium needs to be of a certain denseness or thickness for a strong alkaloid production. Primordia, mushrooms, sclerotia etc are fine. Thin hyphae growing in a liquid or on top of a hard agar surface are not. Rhizomorphs grabbing pieces of grain in a jar of spawn may be a bit better but are still not very good. If you want to use a mycelial mat for the production of secundary metabolites you will have to trick the hyphae into behaving sclerotium-like or forming pseudo mushroom tissue. Soft agar (2g/l) seems to do just that for reasons totally beyond my understanding.

Another advantage of soft agar (compared to a pure watery liquid like karo water) is that it slows down the dissolution of mycelial enzymes in the medium. If you add a food dye to karo water and then some azurescens mycelium, the liquid becomes fully transparent in a matter of days - proving that mycelial enzymes indeed have spread through the medium and have eaten away the pigment. Not so with soft agar. It keeps its food dye color for much longer just like solid agar. This is important because the same thing happens with hydrogen peroxide. In a liquid culture the peroxide is decomposed in a very short time. In soft agar it protects the medium against contaminants until the surface is colonized.  All you have to do is introduce a clean piece of mycelium (tiny piece of substrate cake from a just birthed jar, a grain of colonized WBS etc). A tyvek lid is not even really needed, a cap which is just turned a bit loose for FAE is OK. Just wait until the surface is covered with a white-blueing mat.

This approach BTW makes it also possible to grow a blueing mat in a not-very-heat-resistent plastic bottle. Such as the bottles which you can find in the supermarket and which contain strawberry breakfasts and such. There even are pint bottles there which contain a drinkable and pre-sterilized liquid with just the right amount of glucose in it. Which only need a bit agar, marmite and pancyan mycelium (and a few drops of ammonia or so in order to make them a bit less acidic. You might replace the hydrogen peroxide with a tiny bit of sodium percarbonate which both releases peroxide and buffers the -citric- acid, just get the pH to 7 or so). Just do not forget to pour half the contents out of the bottle in order to create enough air space / surface for the mycelium.

The result can be a very funky and colorful bottle of liquid breakfast in 14-21 days (PanCyan grows faster than azu). When the mat is thick and blue and ready, all you have to do is pour the liquid out, keep the mat in, add some vitamin C to protect the alkaloids, freeze&thaw the bottle in order to break the cell walls (release the alkaloids) and then add fruit juice to dissolve the goodies (and add some extra citric acid and/or vodka to make sure the liquid does not contaminate).

BUT ISN'T THAT 'PERSISTENT' PEROXIDE APPROACH DANGEROUS FOR THE MYCELIUM? I hear you ask. Perhaps, but I do not care here. This mycelium is not meant to produce mushrooms or start new jars! Let it go senescent. This mycelium is just meant to stain blue and be ready. And the peroxide may be a poison but it also breaks down in only water and oxygen. Nothing to be afraid of.

Another thing is that different bottles can be very equal in potency, especially when they are seeded at the same time, containg the same amount of the same liquid, colonize at the same temperature etc. A pint bottle with 250ml medium in it will support some 5-7 grams of dried mycelium. When the mycelium is freeze-thawed and the liquid replaced by a pint of juice then 100ml of this liquid can be a good dosage.

It is almost like making wine, only with an aerobic fermentation instead of aerobic. And a bit faster. Happy bicycle day everybody!


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Re: soft agar vs. liquid culture, solid agar, grains [Re: ranonar]
    #19878049 - 04/21/14 01:43 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Eating mycelium without giving it a chance to fruit is evil. :mushroom2:


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Re: soft agar vs. liquid culture, solid agar, grains [Re: vikingsc]
    #19881258 - 04/22/14 12:35 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Eating mycelium without giving it a chance to fruit is evil.




Ha. I suppose you are opposed to sclerotia cultivation as well? easier than cubes FAQ

I know about vegetarism, veganism and even fruitarianism but is your lifestyle a branch of fruitariansm or not? I am not sure. But it is not a problem in this tek. Seriously. Thick mycelial mats do support 'voluntary' fruitings (mushroom formation on agar). Even better than thin mats on solid agars. Thick mats may even provide the easiest ultramicro scale method of mushroom cultivation in existence. Hidden in plane sight to all of us for over half a century. I am sure you can apply a casing layer of vermiculite if you are careful. Stamets' GGMM book provides a bunch of prime examples of 'voluntary fruitings' of edible mushrooms on solid agar. That book is two decades old already but I know no-one who has specialized in micromushroom cultivation (fungal euivalent to micro vegetable cultivation etc.). Soft agars look like funny interesting semiliquids which can help with mycorestoration tests like crude oil composting etc.

You know what? I guess I know what I am going to do this summer.


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Re: soft agar vs. liquid culture, solid agar, grains [Re: ranonar]
    #26192742 - 09/16/19 08:46 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

I am necroing an old thread, but this is still no t thoroughly explored and is possibly very promising, here are my findings thus far.

Hi all :smile:
I have never been an active member here or of the DMT nexus, occasional long time lurker. These threads referenced can be found at the bottom of the post.

I not long ago I found an old post of an older tek that had been long forgotten and thought to be bunk due to a reportedly terrible translation.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7680529

The Brack and Kobel method of psilocybin production.

The claim is that mycelium in some mushrooms (maybe not pan cyans, as one member showed a law enforcement study of pan cyans that tested no psilocybin prior to pinning, though consuming pre-fruited mycelium of Cubes anecdotally produces effect) is active, and it's speed of growth makes it a viable option for rapid actives production. The mistranslation is generally interpreted as myc grown in LC.
However, LC myc catabolises it's actives very quickly at exactly the one week mark and requires close and difficult (complex, apparatus for testing) monitering to be harvested in the small optimal window. The other common mis-interpretation is to grow on hard agar. This results in myc that is unable to penetrate the surface, thereby providing too thin a layer of myc, low yields.

The solution posed is that agar mixed to 1/10th the dilution of hard agar allows for mycelial penetration. and one ought to harvest once the myc has carpeted the surface.

Reportedly effectively done by Brack and Kobel whilst working for sandoz in the 50s, also effectively used to grow sclerotia and fruit from this substrate. The sclerotia is extremely clean and easily harvested, and the agar is rightly priced if using it at 1/10th regular dilution.

The corrected translation of the tek recieved very little interest, admittedly the title and body of text is offputtingly dense in the old post.

I am curious to see if this is a viable tek for producing actives at 6x the speed. (So much more in the fruit, I realise, still I see potential benefit here, grow bulk then and extract to another medium if eating heaps of myc is unappealing, the tek also mentions an extraction tek (I know fast degradation, make some agar jellies with it or mix it with some other protective medium, add flavours too :smile: )

I tried to revive the old thread to little avail. Then I tried making a post in the cultivation thread, mixed responses. A lot of ill will toward the concept. A good point was made by footpath; "Just about everyone knocks what they don't try and don't even take time to read anything legitimate about. They mainly just proliferate speculative rumors from the populous. Ultimately, I am 99% certain that 99% of the people here Do Not have the means to produce anything beyond anecdotal evidence. And that, most of the time, they don't even bother to create that."

Now, please, forgive my arrogance for making three posts on the same topic and necroing an 11 year old thread about an abandoned tek from the 50s. I am curious, and see potential benefit to the community at large, perhaps the advanced crowd will be more likely to share in my curiosity.

I will also post this to the DMT nexus.

I am a noob. I know nothing. I am in process of growing my first PF jars. I have no experience with agar. I am a student on government assistance who has just been kicked out of home and am shortly to live in a tent in the backyard of my law abiding Aunt. My pf jars have had to be moved to another location 3 hours from my Aunts. There will be renovations there in a months time for a month and a half. My jars will have to be spawned to completely autonomous bulk monotubs on my first grow.

I am an avid reader and have a lot of curiosity, that is just about all that is going for me as a cultivator.

If anyone feels any curiosity toward such a beautiful tek, a week, a little agar and some curiosity is the minimum requirements for some results. I believe that others may have favourable conditions, supplies and skills for such experimentation earlier than I will be able to.

Have a go if you will and tell us all how you go :smile:

Look at this, promising anecdotal reports regarding growing strong, active azurescens mycelial mats on agar. Easier than sclerotia even and better substrate for sclerotia too.
https://www.shroomery.or...hp/Cat/0/Number/7789758

Spent cake tea, effective -
https://www.shroomery.or...umber/14257992#14257992

Eating cakes and mushroom stem bases on surface of cakes -
https://www.shroomery.or...umber/14992441#14992441

Mycelium extraction teks -
https://www.shroomery.or...hp/Number/539138#539138

https://www.shroomery.or.../Number/4387553#4387553

General cultivation shroomery thread -
https://www.shroomery.or...r/26191459/fpart/1/vc/1

Advanced cultivation thread -
https://www.shroomery.or...lat.php/Number/26192695

Law enforcement study on what stage of Pan cyan myc contains actives, with pan cyans they found that it isn't until pinning, note, I've heard reports of other species that contain notable actives prior to pinning and this is the only source I found to say this about pan cyan, we trust cops right haha-
http://www.fanaticus.com/forensic.htm

The old post on the supposedly correctly translated Brack and Kobel method -
https://www.shroomery.or...wflat.php/Number/7680529


--------------------
All's good :smile:


Edited by ThePurpleWiggle (09/16/19 09:48 PM)


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Offlineblackout
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: blackout]
    #26199804 - 09/20/19 05:23 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ThePurpleWiggle said:
I am necroing an old thread,



in this thread I gave a link.

Quote:

blackout said:
This is an old thread of mine, I spoke of grinding up colonised grain to maximise its surface area.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4316085

quote below from a "trusted cultivator"
Quote:

waixingren said:
3 days ago i tripped off of a pint of mycelium. it was a bitch to get the myc off the birdseed. but it worked. i had a few extra jars laying around so i figured i'd try. hardest trip of my life. i'll be posting a thread about it later along with a trip report.


broke apart each half pint into its own quart jar, break it up really good. i used oj instead of cranberry juice. filled it just enough to cover all the grain. closed the lid tight and shook it to hell. shook some more, shook again. strained it out into a glass, poured it back into the jar and shook some more. whole process took me about 20 minutes. by the time i was done the oj just looked a little more cloudy, was still yellow and still tasted like oj but with a very slight mushroom hint. i didnt think it would work but i was suprised as hell to have my first level 5 trip off it.








You pm'd me about the "nuclear mycelicum tek". A thread about it is here. It is pretty much what I was suggesting/wondering about, repeated shaking to grow more and more actives,

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17420670
yet another trusted cultivator, who is also a mod in this forum, confirms that eating myc can give effects.

Quote:

TmethylM said:I've done this using nothing but some field capacity organic pasta.
It colonized fast and tastes pretty good actually.
If you want a quick trip there is no faster way. That's the only practical use I see.




I find it equally amusing and disturbing how many people are so doubtful or in complete denial that this works, when it is so easy to find numerous TCs and respected members, even a mod saying it works. Are these idiots able to use the search function or just think everybody is lying!?

not sure if you came across this
http://www.en.psilosophy.info/pdf/new_aspects_of_the_occurrence_chemistry_and_cultivation_of_european_hallucinogenic_mushrooms_(psilosophy.info).pdf

Another way to grow a lot of myc can be blending grains.
Quote:

blackout said:
Quote:

The only obstervation that I believe would cause an issue is if you use larger size grain like Rye berry or Oats. The size of the inner uncolonized grain ends up being too much exposure for contams to set in unless you don't blend the grain as much. The smaller millet or wbs grain doesn't quite get pulverized as much so the grain itself isn't as exposed.



Due to this, does anybody blend up larger grains without any water and let them recover. Maybe it is already mentioned in this thread. I had colonised wheat which I stuck in a blender and let recolonise, I did this a second time with the aim of being like small grains like millet and having a large amount of myc going into bulk. I also guess it makes the nutrients more available for the first couple of flushes, which might be all some bother to do.

I am planning on trying this with popcorn for sclerotia, I heard popcorn is terrible for sclerotia and think it could be due to the hard outer casing not allowing it to penetrate.




Quote:

blackout said:
These are some blended cube popcorn jars that I was talking about in my previous post.

this crap photo is colonised popcorn which was 100g(100ml) water added to 100g popcorn


same below jar shaken (grains are dark as they were heated at 97C for several days)


same jar after being in a blender and the blended paste scraped back into the same jar. It is laid on its side to get a good surface area for myc to grow.


the same jar 16 days later, after about 3-4 days it was 100% colonised again.


inside that same jar. This has since been added to coir with some gypsum.


This popcorn below was prepared much drier, 71g (71ml) water per 100g popcorn. Before blending it looked the same as the other jar on the right, both were consolidating for several weeks.

The texture of this drier blended jar seemed a lot better than the other which was more like paste, this one is still shakeable and airy. It grew a bit in volume. Having drier popcorn allows you fill the jars a little more than usual as they are like little hard nuts or stones, they break up very easily. I poured out about 1/5th of the jar and tried to chop it up with a kitchen knife, like a chef chopping herbs. These went in with the mixture as I wanted it to be shakeable and I was also concerned the myc may be overblended.

Popcorn is considered a poor grain by many, its hard to hydrate, expensive, is large so has less myc due to less surface area per jar, and it performs poorly for some. By blending it you should get far more myc, and I beieve the poor performance may be since the hard shell makes it harder for myc to readily get nutrients from it. By blending I think it may readily give up nutrients. Usually we do not want burst grains as the starchiness is prone to contams, these grains were well colonized and I expect they will recolonise very quickly. I did not want to make a slurry or mix with bulk as this would dilute the relatively small amount of myc too much for my liking, and the newly exposed innards might contam.




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OfflineFailboat
Fuck Up

Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 8,736
Last seen: 5 hours, 33 minutes
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: blackout]
    #26199864 - 09/20/19 05:55 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

Substrate tea.:2cents:


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OfflineThePurpleWiggle
Alpha through omega
I'm a teapot

Registered: 07/05/13
Posts: 54
Loc: Straya
Last seen: 4 years, 19 days
Re: Easiest cultivation method ever! [Re: Failboat]
    #26200360 - 09/20/19 11:44 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

Good stuff blackout, blended grains, better porosity and fae than soft agar. First time seeing that study.


--------------------
All's good :smile:


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