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InvisibleWolfgang
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why atheists care so much about religion
    #7789487 - 12/22/07 03:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)



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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: why atheists care so much about religion [Re: Wolfgang]
    #7789505 - 12/22/07 03:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

So then...it appears that the problem is NOT religion, but authoritarianism and discrimination.


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InvisibleWolfgang
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Re: why atheists care so much about religion [Re: Silversoul]
    #7789533 - 12/22/07 03:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Not necessarily but it sure does piss a lot of people off and it adds some fuel to the fire. Maybe if Christianity wasn't being pushed on people atheists/agnostics wouldn't care so much.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: why atheists care so much about religion [Re: Wolfgang]
    #7789562 - 12/22/07 03:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe if Christianity wasn't being pushed on people atheists/agnostics wouldn't care so much.

if religion wasn't pushed on people, it probably would not exist.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: why atheists care so much about religion [Re: Wolfgang]
    #7789576 - 12/22/07 04:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Wolfgang said:
Maybe if Christianity wasn't being pushed on people atheists/agnostics wouldn't care so much.



Maybe so, but I also see a lot of evangelistic atheists who attack believers for believing in something other than materialism, rather than simply for forcing their views on others. If someone is an atheist, I have no problem with that. If someone is a Christian, I have no problem with that. When either of them gets aggressive with their beliefs, then it becomes a problem for me.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: why atheists care so much about religion [Re: wilshire]
    #7789599 - 12/22/07 04:03 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
Maybe if Christianity wasn't being pushed on people atheists/agnostics wouldn't care so much.

if religion wasn't pushed on people, it probably would not exist.



I'm sure that explains why Christianity grew so fast at a time when its followers were being fed to the lions.


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InvisibleWolfgang
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Re: why atheists care so much about religion [Re: Silversoul]
    #7789612 - 12/22/07 04:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Wolfgang said:
Maybe if Christianity wasn't being pushed on people atheists/agnostics wouldn't care so much.



Maybe so, but I also see a lot of evangelistic atheists who attack believers for believing in something other than materialism, rather than simply for forcing their views on others. If someone is an atheist, I have no problem with that. If someone is a Christian, I have no problem with that. When either of them gets aggressive with their beliefs, then it becomes a problem for me.




So you have problems with the issues in the video too then, right?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: why atheists care so much about religion [Re: Wolfgang]
    #7789617 - 12/22/07 04:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Of course. And as I pointed out, all the issues in the video are issues of authoritarianism and discrimination, which I am firmly against.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: why atheists care so much about religion [Re: Silversoul]
    #7789684 - 12/22/07 04:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Wolfgang said:
Maybe if Christianity wasn't being pushed on people atheists/agnostics wouldn't care so much.



Maybe so, but I also see a lot of evangelistic atheists who attack believers for believing in something other than materialism, rather than simply for forcing their views on others.  If someone is an atheist, I have no problem with that.  If someone is a Christian, I have no problem with that.  When either of them gets aggressive with their beliefs, then it becomes a problem for me.




Are you referring to events IRL, or on these boards?  Where are "evangelistic" atheists attacking believers IRL?  Do you see religion as being under attack?  :confused:

In the world I've been observing for the past few decades, so-called Christians have been pushing their beliefs on the nation, trying to make them part of our educational system, making many of them into laws, and even going as far as killing those who practice what they consider "sinful." 

I haven't seen any attacks on believers in these forums, either.  Many of the IDEAS proposed as TRUTHS by believers have been rather disrespectfully disputed, but that is what P&S is about.  If you attack the poster, you're flaming.  If you attack the ideas, you're debating.

IMO, the only reason atheists or agnostics care about religion is that they do not want to follow the "rules" proposed by the religious.  :shrug:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: why atheists care so much about religion [Re: Veritas]
    #7789689 - 12/22/07 04:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I haven't seen any attacks on believers in these forums, either. Many of the IDEAS proposed as TRUTHS by believers have been rather disrespectfully disputed, but that is what P&S is about. If you attack the poster, you're flaming. If you attack the ideas, you're debating.



Many people work their way around this rule by attacking groups of people rather than individuals. Overall, I just see a lot of disrespect going around.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: why atheists care so much about religion [Re: Silversoul]
    #7789700 - 12/22/07 04:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"Attacking" a group is still not flaming.  If someone chooses to identify themselves AS a group, then they may feel offended by disrespect shown to that group.  It comes back to an issue which has been discussed here before: do we OWE respect to beliefs, or must they earn it by their own merits?

IMO, the entire point of philosophical debate is to find out which beliefs can EARN respect, not to pay some sort of debt of respect to whatever beliefs are espoused--that's the other forum.  :wink:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: why atheists care so much about religion [Re: Veritas]
    #7789715 - 12/22/07 04:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

"Attacking" a group is still not flaming.



Where did I even mention flaming? I'm talking about people being disrespectful.

Quote:

do we OWE respect to beliefs, or must they earn it by their own merits?



Beliefs do not deserve to be accepted blindly, but all viewpoints should be addressed respectfully rather than condescendingly, so long as the other party is willing to extend the same respect. It's a matter of maturity, IMO, and I don't think it shows much maturity to push your viewpoint as being superior or to denigrate the viewpoints of others. Dissing others' views is not the same as arguing against them. The former shows a real lack of maturity, and that is the evangelism I am referring to.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: why atheists care so much about religion [Re: Silversoul]
    #7789748 - 12/22/07 04:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

If you choose to post in this forum be prepared to have your ideas and opinions challenged, refuted, disputed, rebutted, analyzed, shredded, pooh-poohed, and yes - even supported.




Respect for ideas which one sees as faulty and irrational? No.

Respect for the right of other posters to hold ideas which one sees as faulty and irrational? Sure.

Rules as to whether someone's debating style is (based on the perception of one's debating partner, apparently) condescending, superior or disrespectful? No, thank you.

Tiptoeing around someone else's sensitivity to having their beliefs disputed is simply not in keeping with the intention of this forum, nor the intentions of the study of philosophy. Any belief is fair game.

Oh, and just for clarity:

Quote:

Evangelism
1. Zealous preaching and dissemination of the gospel, as through missionary work.
2. Militant zeal for a cause.




How is this expressed via disrespect for religious groups?



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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: why atheists care so much about religion [Re: Wolfgang]
    #7789771 - 12/22/07 04:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

why atheists care so much about religion




Because we are caring people. :yesnod:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: why atheists care so much about religion [Re: Silversoul]
    #7789846 - 12/22/07 05:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

all viewpoints should be addressed respectfully




Why? I don't think respecting the views of a holocaust denier or racist shows any signs of maturity. Not all beliefs are equal. If you have good reasons for your beliefs, then I will respect them. If you do not have good reasons for your beliefs, then I will not respect them. If your beliefs cause you to harm others unnecessarily, then I will definitely not respect them.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: why atheists care so much about religion [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7790277 - 12/22/07 07:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry but I tend to lose respect for people who go on the supernatural. They are like kids that believe in Santa Claus.

If you try to explain the world with an imaginary friend... you are nuts and 100% against reason. If you are against reason and go on faith... go fuck yourself.

I'll laugh when you get cancer and start praying to your God... and die.


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http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (12/22/07 07:18 PM)


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InvisibleWolfgang
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Re: why atheists care so much about religion [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7790386 - 12/22/07 08:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:

all viewpoints should be addressed respectfully




Why? I don't think respecting the views of a holocaust denier or racist shows any signs of maturity. Not all beliefs are equal. If you have good reasons for your beliefs, then I will respect them. If you do not have good reasons for your beliefs, then I will not respect them. If your beliefs cause you to harm others unnecessarily, then I will definitely not respect them.




Does being disrespectful make what you believe anymore appealing they to the person you're disagreeing with? I agree we shouldn't respect people like holocaust deniers, pedophiles and racists but to get mad at good people that just believe stupid shit isn't right. That doesn't help anything, except maybe make YOU feel better... Don't you care about people and helping them seek the truth? They'll never hear it if you disrespect them.


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OfflineAzen
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Re: why atheists care so much about religion [Re: Wolfgang]
    #7792131 - 12/23/07 11:03 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The only respectable opinion is agnosticism. If you aren't agnostic, then you are in a fairy tale land. No one knows and to say you know that there is a God or you know there isn't a God isn't logical in the slightest.


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InvisibleAtheist
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Re: why atheists care so much about religion [Re: Azen]
    #7792140 - 12/23/07 11:05 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

god is made by humans, thats why prayer doesnt work and miracles arent real


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: why atheists care so much about religion [Re: Silversoul]
    #7792146 - 12/23/07 11:07 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

but all viewpoints should be addressed respectfully rather than condescendingly,

Like the Nazi parties ideas of the extermination of the Jews?


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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