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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Japan Preparing To Hunt EVEN MORE Endangered Whales
#7787421 - 12/21/07 10:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Japan, under pressure from the United States and Australia, is delaying plans to kill 50 humpback whales as part of its already contentious annual whale harvest in waters near Antarctica.
Australia’s new government had threatened to shadow the Japanese whaling vessels with a patrol boat and aircraft. The United States, which currently holds the rotating chairmanship of the International Whaling Commission, the international body that governs whaling, pushed hard for a delay until the group’s next meeting, in June.
Japan and most maritime countries are bound by a 1986 international moratorium on commercial whaling, but there are exceptions for whales killed for scientific research. For years, Japan has hunted growing numbers of a widening range of species, studying stomach contents and other aspects of the animals taken.
But many countries, environmental groups and biologists oppose the activity, saying the meat ends up sold in Japanese markets. Most of the research, according to many marine biologists, can be done through nonlethal means.
Opposition intensified when Japan for the first time included the humpback on its planned harvest list along with minke and finback whales. Humpback whales, last commercially killed 40 years ago, are a marquee species in the billion-dollar-a-year whale-watching industry because of their dramatic leaps and songlike vocalizations.
Japan’s Foreign Ministry announced the delay on Friday in Tokyo, according to news agency reports.
Takumi Fukuda, the fisheries attaché at the Japanese Embassy in Washington, said Japan appreciated the American effort to "reduce tension" among countries bound by the whaling pact. "This shows Japan’s sincere intention to cooperate," he said, as long as further discussions are based on "sound scientific findings."
Japan contends that populations of humpbacks in Antarctic waters have risen about 10 percent a year from decade-old estimates of 40,000 or so in the Southern Hemisphere.
"Japan has listened intently to the concerns surrounding their hunt and the special significance whales have in many cultures," Commerce Secretary Carlos M. Gutierrez said in a statement.
Monica Medina, the director of whale conservation for the Pew Environment Group, credited Japan for delaying any humpback hunting and the Bush administration for pressing for the delay.
But she said that larger issues needed to be ironed out to stem the expanding killing of whales. More than 2,000 were killed by Japan and a handful of other countries last year, the biggest number since the moratorium was declared.
"We hope this is just a first step," Ms. Medina said. "Despite an international moratorium on commercial whaling, the world’s whales face many threats to their survival, including climate change, ship strikes and Japan’s active whaling program."
nytimes.com
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



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Re: Japan Preparing To Hunt EVEN MORE Endangered Whales [Re: Diploid]
#7787615 - 12/21/07 11:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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For me, as a hunter, I cannot understand this.
Fuck culture, whatever......you dont kill what you dont eat. I kill allot of deer in the Winter, but mostly in over populated regions of the upper Midwest...which in turn provides a better living condition for the future fawns. But to row your boat and kill something that has nothing to do with your current living condition, or the future environments of whales, is meaningless.
Its the same reason why I will never hunt a bear.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: Japan Preparing To Hunt EVEN MORE Endangered Whales [Re: SirTripAlot]
#7787628 - 12/21/07 11:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I suspect for the Japanese its facing the fact that they are tiny in stature as a race and they get off on the idea of killing something so large. Napoleonic complex?
A similar phenomena is going on with asian people wanting to eat rhino horns and similar things to get their pee pees hard. Its amazing what people are willing to do to get off- killing entire species for superstitious BS is nothing to some people. It's a cultural mental illness.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



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Re: Japan Preparing To Hunt EVEN MORE Endangered Whales [Re: zorbman]
#7787895 - 12/22/07 01:58 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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can't we smack em on the nose like a dog and say "NO! BAD JAPAN!" srlsy why the hell do you want to exterminate a species for a fuckin snack
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
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Re: Japan Preparing To Hunt EVEN MORE Endangered Whales [Re: learningtofly]
#7788303 - 12/22/07 09:01 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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They said there is 40,000 of them at least, whats 50 going to do? Hardly extermination. Plus, with the knowledge they gain from their study they may be able to save far more than 50 whales.
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Japan Preparing To Hunt EVEN MORE Endangered Whales [Re: SirTripAlot]
#7788460 - 12/22/07 10:19 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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well the article suggests the research is pretty much a facade to work around treaty loopholes for such, and that they do end up eating the meat anyways.
For anyone that's interested in another whale activist's plans for the giants of the depths, check out the Onion's op-ed piece.
http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/in_order_to_save_the_whales_we
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Japan Preparing To Hunt EVEN MORE Endangered Whales [Re: xFrockx]
#7792051 - 12/23/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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They said there is 40,000 of them at least, whats 50 going to do?
Don't be dense.
At 40,000, they're still at risk of extinction. And none of the "research" they're doing requires the animals be killed and sold in Japanese supermarkets.
And there's a bigger issue. The ENTIRE WORLD except Japan has voluntarily agreed to stop hunting these animals. If other countries were as selfish as the Japanese, the species would vanish within a few years as they almost already did before the moratorium was agreed on.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: Japan Preparing To Hunt EVEN MORE Endangered Whales [Re: Diploid]
#7792257 - 12/23/07 11:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Didn't Japanese culture used to be all about HONOR? Whatever happened to that?
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
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Re: Japan Preparing To Hunt EVEN MORE Endangered Whales [Re: Diploid]
#7792477 - 12/23/07 01:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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If the Japanese wanted to they could easily just hunt and kill the whales without telling anyone. Instead they have been cooperating with international demands and nothing is going wrong with the situation at all. Obviously their intentions were not that evil, otherwise they would have just said fuck it and killed them.
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
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Re: Japan Preparing To Hunt EVEN MORE Endangered Whales [Re: Diploid]
#7792491 - 12/23/07 01:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Density must be in the eye of the beholder. There are 40,000 of them. There are species in the world that number in the hundreds, those are the ones that might not be able to handle a population cut of only 50. Sure, the whales still have a chance of extinction, but if something comes along thats major enough to kill all 40,000 of them, its not going to make a damn bit of difference if there are 50 less when it happens.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Japan Preparing To Hunt EVEN MORE Endangered Whales [Re: xFrockx]
#7792560 - 12/23/07 01:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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If the Japanese wanted to they could easily just hunt and kill the whales without telling anyone.
Nope. They're being (and have been) closely watched precisely because they're slime-balls. Greenpeace and Australia are keeping a close eye on them. Probably the US too.
Instead they have been cooperating with international demands
Again nope.
The only reason they're delaying is selfish interest in avoiding Australia sending a ship and airplane to interfere with their hunt, and international backlash.
They've agreed to temporarily delay killing 50 humpbacks, but they are currently, actively killing other endangered whale species.
That is not cooperation.
From the article: "This shows Japan’s sincere intention to cooperate," he said, as long as further discussions are based on "sound scientific findings."
This is more bullshit from them. There is and has been "sound scientific findings" for decades that these whales are endangered and need protection. It was based on this evidence that the moratorium was formed and it's on ongoing new evidence that consensus for the moratorium continues today.
There are 40,000 of them. There are species in the world that number in the hundreds
C'mon meng. You're smarter than this. The number of individuals required for a genetically healthy (read: not inbred) population varies with species. For humpbacks, it's a hell of a lot more than 40,000.
At current populations, local groups are CURRENTLY experiencing inbreeding. The natural population before we started hunting them numbered in the millions. The current population is a tiny fraction of what it was before the moratorium.
Do some research. Geez!
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
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Re: Japan Preparing To Hunt EVEN MORE Endangered Whales [Re: Diploid]
#7792595 - 12/23/07 01:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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They are not "endangered." They are officially classified as "vulnerable."
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Japan Preparing To Hunt EVEN MORE Endangered Whales [Re: xFrockx]
#7792604 - 12/23/07 01:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Because there are insufficient numbers total, they are 'locally endangered' in places where natural genetic mixing is scarce. In these places, inbreeding is CURRENTLY HAPPENING.
Be that as it may, 'vulnerable' is more than reason enough to protect them. It's not like the Japanese are starving and have no other choice of what to eat.
Are you arguing just to win a debate or to find Truth?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Japan Preparing To Hunt EVEN MORE Endangered Whales [Re: Diploid]
#7792620 - 12/23/07 01:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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"Are you arguing just to win a debate or to find Truth?"
there's no difference between the two as long as you define the parameters of the argument
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
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Re: Japan Preparing To Hunt EVEN MORE Endangered Whales [Re: Diploid]
#7792645 - 12/23/07 01:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I still question how much of this has to do with whale meat. Would they need to take from a variety of species if their primary goal was ultimately to eat them? Wikipedia also says that the majority of information known about whales was from whaling. If these 50 whales were harvested from a healthy population there could possibly be some important information obtained. I would tend to err on thinking that 50 is a few too many, and there would be obvious reasons why taking only a couple would be more desirable, but I'm no scientist.
"Are you arguing just to win a debate or to find Truth?" I saw that the responses were pretty uniform, so I thought I'd try to make sure people had all their facts in order. I suppose that's for Truth.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Japan Preparing To Hunt EVEN MORE Endangered Whales [Re: johnm214]
#7792646 - 12/23/07 01:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sure there is.
One can argue what one knows is false because he's invested in the position or it's in one's interest. One can also argue neutrally in an honest search for truth and accept when a line of reasoning undermines one's position.
The first is what dishonest politicians do. The latter is what honest philosophers do.
Big difference.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Japan Preparing To Hunt EVEN MORE Endangered Whales [Re: xFrockx]
#7792655 - 12/23/07 01:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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but I'm no scientist
I'm no biologist either, but I can't help but notice that virtually all biologists on Earth (except Japanese biologists) think these whales need protecting.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
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Re: Japan Preparing To Hunt EVEN MORE Endangered Whales [Re: Diploid]
#7792673 - 12/23/07 01:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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This may be true, but you are using a very emotional arguement. I do not know myself, but there may be a real value in harvesting a few whales from a population to gauge its health. I'm sure it would have its benefits, as I'm sure things like diseases can more strongly effect populations which are smaller than they should be, with less genetic diversity. I think I would need to see a real scientific arguement either way to convince me whether or not this whale hunting was either a travesty or a necessity.
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Japan Preparing To Hunt EVEN MORE Endangered Whales [Re: Diploid]
#7792721 - 12/23/07 02:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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ahh ok,
I was simply saying that you will be exposed to the truth no matter what your motive is when arguing, as will a disinterested third-party observor.
The problem with the person who continues an argument which is lost is not that he hasn't found the truth, but that he doesn't care or won't accept logic.
But this is semantics, I get what you're saying.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Japan Preparing To Hunt EVEN MORE Endangered Whales [Re: xFrockx]
#7792723 - 12/23/07 02:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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there may be a real value in harvesting a few whales from a population to gauge its health
I don't doubt this at all. I'm sure some specimens have to be taken to do the science. What I take issue with is hunting hundred and hundreds of whales, year after year, and all for reasons having little to do with science, according to nearly all non-Japanese biologists.
I think I would need to see a real scientific arguement either way to convince me whether or not this whale hunting was either a travesty or a necessity.
Well, there is no shortage of articles in peer-reviewed journals and a wide assortment of web information posted by biology organizations that say it's a travesty.
I don't know of any non-Japanese biology organizations that think it's otherwise. It's based on this that I have formed my current opinion.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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