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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Zen Master
    #778531 - 07/26/02 02:53 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

This brilliant quote from CyberChump:

"If you stop hating the 'hate',
You'll start seeing the love."

displays a very deep Zen wisdom. It is a haiku in full flower and I hate him for coming up with it.


Now if we could write a book about it and sell T-Shirts and bumper stickers...



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (07/26/02 02:57 PM)


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OfflinePaleE
journeyman

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 55
Loc: Who are you? And why do ...
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Zen Master [Re: Swami]
    #778553 - 07/26/02 03:14 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

A zen master is out with his disciples...
He picks up a stick and ask's the first student "What is this!?!?!?!?!"...
The student, gives pause, and the Zen MAster HIT's him with it, and turns to the next disciple..."what is this!?!?!"...
Without pause, the student requests "Give it to me so i can have a better look at it."
The Zen master hands over the stick to his student...
Then the student hits the Zen master with it...

Thx,
the pale e


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Zen Master [Re: PaleE]
    #778642 - 07/26/02 04:16 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

hehehehe


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Zen Master [Re: Swami]
    #778675 - 07/26/02 04:56 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, well there is no Zen in wisdom. The same master that disavows reason will board a plane that couldn't have been built and cannot fly without it. The laws of logic are transcultural. I eschew Eastern metaphysics more than hypocritical religion.

Chairs,


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Anonymous

Re: Zen Master [Re: ]
    #778743 - 07/26/02 05:58 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Is there anything within Zen Buddhist or Taoist philosophies that makes sense to you or resonates with you on any level?


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Zen Master [Re: ]
    #779029 - 07/26/02 08:32 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, well there is no Zen in wisdom. The same master that disavows reason...

What makes you think this?

Nietzsche was a Zen master.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 718
Loc: look into a child's eyes,...
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Zen Master [Re: Swami]
    #779147 - 07/26/02 09:39 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

if you stop hating the hate, you'll start seeing the love? i completely disagree.

if love is all, then hate is nothing, or just the absence of love. so if i hate hate. then i have an absence of love for the absence of love. so i feel love for everything except the total absence of love itself. and that i feel nothing for. which is is hate. so how do i not see the love braa?


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!


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Anonymous

Re: Zen Master [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #779804 - 07/27/02 09:55 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

love and hate are two sides of the same coin. one cannot exist without the other. they are infact, two parts of the same thing. to hate "hate" is not to realize this.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Zen Master [Re: Sclorch]
    #779836 - 07/27/02 10:14 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Nietzsche was a Zen master.

"That which doesn't kill you will make you stronger."

Yeah, I see a lot of people with emphysema and diabetes setting new world records...



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
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Re: Zen Master [Re: Swami]
    #779981 - 07/27/02 11:44 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think Nietzsche was referring to physical strength. You know that...


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Zen Master [Re: ]
    #780181 - 07/27/02 01:30 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Is there anything within Zen Buddhist or Taoist philosophies that makes sense to you or resonates with you on any level?

Ratiocination is the method whereby I understand the world at its most basic level. I use inductive and deductive logic to formulate my opinions and make my judgements about the world and its components. I have read the Dow (joke) and meditated on the Cones ( also joke) but neither the book nor the method ever brought me enlightenment or inner peace.

On an intuitive level Zen did not resonate with me but did provide an escape much as some forms of Christianity brings to its adherents. It offered a way out of the crudity of the physical world and if I had chosen could have kept me numb for quite a while.

Cheers,


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Anonymous

Re: Zen Master [Re: Sclorch]
    #780193 - 07/27/02 01:37 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, well there is no Zen in wisdom. The same master that disavows reason...

What makes you think this?

Nietzsche was a Zen master.


This is another point that is axiomatic to me. Before I post the reasons why I think this could you explain your idea about Nietzsche being a Zen master? You have alluded to it before and I find the idea intriguing.

Cheers,


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
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Re: Zen Master [Re: ]
    #780333 - 07/27/02 03:02 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

This is another point that is axiomatic to me. Before I post the reasons why I think this could you explain your idea about Nietzsche being a Zen master? You have alluded to it before and I find the idea intriguing.

This is a book I haven?t written yet. I probably never will, as many books are abused with misinterpretation due to misunderstanding. My allusions are the best I can do. This I have learned from the great Zen masters (not all of them were from Asia).

Nietzsche WAS a Zen master. It?s a damn shame (or is it?) that he found no true contemporaries (that I know of) in his lifetime. I?ve often pondered that the psychological stress- maybe the common fear of being alone -was what led to his collapse. Maybe the last straw was when the sick truth (?) of humanity?s inherent selfishness overpowered his then-feeble mind when he saw that horse being beaten in the street.

Anyone who really hears Nietzsche has stumbled upon the unspoken language of Zen. It?s more of a rhythm than anything. Few are exposed to it and fewer really receive it. The rhythm was felt by Nietzsche, Buddha, Jesus (according to what was written about him in the Bible and definitely the Gospel of Thomas), probably Mohammed (I haven?t read all of that book yet), William James, Robert Pirsig (at least in his Zen? book), Ken Kesey, and the list goes on?.
There are a few contemporaries that I?m not sure about as their style is quite unique.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Zen Master [Re: Sclorch]
    #780453 - 07/27/02 04:16 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Wow Sclorch, that was different. I see a softer side of you than I have ever seen before. However, my subjective opinion of your post aside, I must say I never saw that in Nietzche. I do not give much credence to many philosophers after the Middle Ages. For me Nietzche (and congrats on correctly spelling his name) was a bitter angry man with many unresolved issues. Though his writings were abused by misinterpretation, I still see him as a crazy lunatic that died prematurely with a STD. Perhaps I need to re-read his works.

Most of the others you mentioned had sufficient flaws in their thinking that I "ate the fish but spit out the bones" so to speak.

Reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance was a real breakthrough for me. Robert Pirsig that lit a flame in me philosophically has never died. Now, I think he really was nuts. What began with his book ended up with a love for Aristotle that borders on worship. I am sure Mr. Pirsig would be horrified. Still, I collect copies of that book and versions in different languages and colors line the shelves of my library.

With those notes out of the way let me give you a bit of what I think. This is a piece I came up with some time ago. I hope it is not too boring for you.

To begin this section it will be helpful to explore the history of the idea of the unity of truth, how truth was unified in the beginning and how it became two seemingly separate non-overlapping entities.

In the ancient past there was but one field of study that concerned truth in regard to the world and its origins, Theology. In the Western world this was for a time commingled with Philosophy. Later Philosophy pulled away from its roots and established itself independently. After a time Philosophy gave birth to Science and it pulled away from its source of origin as well. The thinkers in these various disciplines used various approaches to arrive at truth and it wasn't long before the different ideas and their proponents clashed.

As far as I know the first clash of substance began in Baghdad circa 1075 AD. There was a Muslim philosopher/theologian named Abu Hamid al-Ghazali, sometimes known as Algazeli who wrote a book called, "The Incoherence of Philosophers" also known as "The Destruction of the Philosopher." The central theme of the book is a critique of philosophy in the light of religion. Algazeli started out as a philosopher and left it to become an Islamic mystic, but not before writing his "Destruction" book. He found that pure philosophy could not lead a person to the truth and his ideas about skepticism predated Hume's by centuries.

Enter the Islamic philosopher Ibn Rushd Averroes, 1126-98 AD from Spain who wrote a book answering Algazeli's called, "Incoherence of the Incoherence" or "The Destruction of the Destruction." In it he proclaimed that there were two different bodies of truth: on the one hand the truths of faith; on the other hand the truths of reason. These two bodies of truth existed in what might be called "logic-tight" compartments. This argument was not a heated one in the way that arguments like this are in the world today. There were no headlines, no flashes on the Internet, no bulletins at the bottom of the TV screen. Many were unaware of the argument at all.

In the time of Isaac Newton the unity was still somewhat preserved though the schism had begun in a remote corner of the world centuries earlier. Newton's religious views were a product of both his era and his temperament. Newton was born on Christmas day in 1642, the year in which Galileo died. For the last ten years of his life Galileo had been under a form of house arrest in Italy-eventually in his own home in the hills above Florence. The Inquisition of the Roman Catholic Church had tried him in 1633 for holding heretical views about the motion of the Earth. His heresy lay in believing in the Copernican theory-the thesis advocated by the Polish astronomer Copernicus that the Earth moved around the Sun-which appeared to contradict the Bible. At the time, a man could go to prison-or worse- for holding such heretical views in the name of science. In Newton's time, there was more freedom to engage in science, but the idea that science and religion were separate enterprises would have appeared absurd to Newton. For Newton, the Bible was the literal truth and could be used as scientific evidence in the same way as any other kind of scientific observation. Newton spent a great deal of his time studying the Bible to learn when the universe was had been created and when it would end.

One might give many more examples from the history of the natural sciences or from stages in the development of historical research about past events, but more examples are not needed for an understanding of the point being made.

There is a time for mutually co-existing ideas (pluralism). In matters of taste for example two people can disagree and it can add flavor and variety to the world. I think that chocolate is the best and you think that vanilla is the best. I think that democracy is the best and you think that socialism is the best. The Latin phrase for this is "De gustibus non disputandum est." This means in matters of taste there is no disputing. A less well-known phrase is "De veritae disputandum est" which means about matters of truth we can (and I add should) engage in dispute. The reason for this is that in certain areas only one idea can be true at the same time. In history, mathematics, science, philosophy and religion there is room for competing and conflicting theories, hypotheses, doctrines, or propositions, only as long as no one of them is, at a given time, established as true.

This is what is known in logic as non-contradiction. The logic of incompatible propositions is formulated by modern logicians in a manner that is slightly different from the way it was treated in antiquity. Aristotle, for example, distinguished incompatible propositions that are contradictory from incompatible propositions that are only contrary.

In the case of contradictories, no middle ground is possible. The theistic affirmation "God exists" and the atheistic denial "God does not exist" stand in contradiction to one another: both cannot be true and both cannot be false; if one is true, the other MUST be false.

The opposition of propositions that are contraries, not contradictories, is a weaker opposition; and a middle ground is possible. The monotheistic affirmation that there is only one God and the polytheistic affirmation that there are many gods cannot both be true, but both can be false. The atheist may be right that neither God nor gods exist.

Modern logicians speak of strong and weak disjunctions. A disjunction here is being used in the sense of
proper logic i.e. a proposition that presents two or more alternative terms, with the assertion that only one
is true or neither is true. A strong disjunction is like the opposition of contradictories: either the proposition P is true or the proposition not-P is true, but both cannot be true and both cannot be false. In contrast, a weak disjunction is the opposition of contraries: either P or not-P is true, but both can be false. Here a middle ground is possible. For example, the two generalizations, "All dogs are green" and "No dogs are green" cannot both be true; if one is true the other is false; but BOTH can be false as they are when the truth lies in the middle ground: " Some dogs are green" and "Some dogs are not green."

In religion there are truth claims that are descriptive and truth claims that are prescriptive. A descriptive truth claim is the claim made by the Bible that a person by the name of Jesus of Nazareth lived, died, and was resurrected from the grave in a supernatural or supra-natural way. This is not allegorical nor is it poetical, it is claimed by the Bible as a literal truth. An example of a prescriptive truth claim is the commandment, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy might, heart, soul, and strength." Whenever a descriptive truth claim comes into conflict with a scientific truth claim in the manner of a contradictory one of them has to be right and the other one is wrong. The only exception is if the statements are not contradictories but contraries. In that case they both many be wrong. If the Bible says that such and such a place was where a town used to exist and sciences proves that no town ever existed there, science is right and the Bible is wrong, though both may be wrong if this matter is a contrary.

Cheers,


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Zen Master [Re: ]
    #780569 - 07/27/02 05:31 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I?m just going to rant here, then I?ll get to your post.

Here?s the thing with ambiguity: it can be true to all, depending on how each one of the all takes it. This is why I like to stick to questions and refutations rather than trying to describe my own stance. As soon as you state your position, you compromise it. I figure that planting the seed of doubt and encouraging the worship of ambiguity will instill the love of uncertainty. The fires of confusion can be controlled by understanding the role of uncertainty. Standing your ground is counterproductive on this journey for that ever-fleeting glimpse of truth. The great ones knew this. So they danced. It?s a celebratory dance and the nonstop rhythm is uncertainty itself.

___________________________________________________________________

Wow Sclorch, that was different. I see a softer side of you than I have ever seen before.

It?s always been here? out in the open.

I do not give much credence to many philosophers after the Middle Ages.

WHY?

For me Nietzsche (and congrats on correctly spelling his name) was a bitter angry man with many unresolved issues. Though his writings were abused by misinterpretation, I still see him as a crazy lunatic that died prematurely with a STD. Perhaps I need to re-read his works.

When I first bumped into him, I too, had a case of existentialist nausea. As far as I know, he was almost 66 before he died and the STD thing is merely a rumor (you really should read What Nietzsche Really Said by Robert Solomon and Kathleen Higgins). I think a re-read is definitely in order.

Most of the others you mentioned had sufficient flaws in their thinking that I "ate the fish but spit out the bones" so to speak.

Well, we all do. I never said they were all-knowing. I just said they were Zen masters. They did the best they could do with what information they had at the time. What more could you ask from them?
I always look at philosophy from a historical perspective? an extension of my own thought process.

Now, I think he really was nuts. What began with his book ended up with a love for Aristotle that borders on worship. I am sure Mr. Pirsig would be horrified.

Phaedrus has had his hooks in me too. I used to really dig Aristotle?s whole ?means between the extremes? outlook. In fact, it guided me to Alan Watts (ch. 2 of ?the Book??).


I?ll leave you with that for now. Like I said, it?s a book?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Zen Master [Re: Sclorch]
    #780596 - 07/27/02 05:44 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Rather than post a hasty reply to the points that interest me I think I will take a bit of time to read and reflect before I answer your singular question.

I find it refreshing that you think. Just don't overdo it.

Cheers,


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Zen Master [Re: ]
    #780626 - 07/27/02 06:00 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

BTW... Interesting stuff about those muslims- I'll have to look into that as I'm extremely ignorant to that vein of thought. Any overview books??


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Zen Master [Re: Sclorch]
    #780685 - 07/27/02 06:27 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

None that I know of. Whatever else Muslims are they are very intelligent, IMO.

Cheerios,


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Invisibledeep_umbra
Stranger
Registered: 05/12/02
Posts: 109
Re: Zen Master [Re: Swami]
    #781246 - 07/28/02 01:32 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

on the subject of zen wisdom.. this dude knows whats up..



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OfflinePaleE
journeyman

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 55
Loc: Who are you? And why do ...
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Zen Master [Re: ]
    #781265 - 07/28/02 01:54 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

huh....?
i hit you with STICK!

Reason? whwhwhwhat's that shit?
Zen didn't make sense to me until...no wait..scratch that...
Zen doesn't make sense to me...no...
Oh yeah! Zen doesn't make sense...no...i think i can get better...
Zen doesn't make NO sense to me! that's the sweet spot!

So is the umbrella to the left or the right of your clogs?
I think that maybe some what's will heal that arrogance of man made and conceptualized reason...
oh...sorry...typo above, i meant 'some Watt's' will heal...
Check it...maybe you'll understand less!

Zen Bones (by Alan Watts)

Reason! hahahaha! That's almost funny!
hahahahahahaha!
hahaha!

Thx,
the pale e


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