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InvisibleIcelander
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Primal unity, eternally suffering.
    #7777297 - 12/19/07 11:26 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I don't necessarily believe this POV but I'm not afraid to entertain it as a possibility. For if it is true then that is what we will all have to live with. The survivalist is prepared for any eventuality to the best of their ability.

"....the truly existent primal unity, eternally suffering and contradictory...needs the rapturous vision, the pleasurable illusion, for its continuous redemption. And we, completely wrapped up in this illusion and composed of it, are compelled to consider this illusion as the truly nonexistent---i.e., as a perpetual becoming in time, space and causality --- in other words, as empirical reality." -Nietzsche

So lets say life is impersonal more or less red in tooth and claw and much of existence is painful. Lets just suspend disbelief for a moment and drop your current belief system. Now if the above was true how would you make your life work for you, how would you live and conduct yourself, could you find meaning?

Nietzsche had an answer. What's yours?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDroz
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: Icelander]
    #7777453 - 12/19/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'd find meaning in things that have happened in the past and project it into the future.

Past knowledge and experience equals meaning of things to come.

You can take your future as if you already knew what will happen.

Remember the past and never forfeit the future - Droz

Peace,
Droz


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: Droz]
    #7777530 - 12/19/07 12:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Sounds like living in the past. What happens to the now? What if the past wasn't good?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDroz
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: Icelander]
    #7777548 - 12/19/07 12:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Hopefully you learn from your mistakes. :rolleyes:


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Evolution of Time.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: Icelander]
    #7777828 - 12/19/07 02:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It's hard for me to understand Nietzsche even in german now, also I did read Zarathustra and some parts of his work, but noiw I can hardly understand it in english even worse anymore.
Look at Nitzsche's miserable life and death and then reconsider his thoughts :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: Droz]
    #7777854 - 12/19/07 02:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Droz said:
Hopefully you learn from your mistakes. :rolleyes:




Whatever.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: Icelander]
    #7777897 - 12/19/07 02:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I find meaning in knowing that I am an irreplaceable human being; that to someone, to something, I am so unique a match and necessity that the significance of my existence is immeasurable. Even if at times the importance of my existence isn't presently visible, I will know that it is only with time that I'll learn of what I am here for.

As far as conduct goes, I'd continue doing what I am currently and will always be doing: pursuing the truth. Without such a relentless search for truth, I would think I must know the truth, and thus become complacent, indolent, and proud.

Will I ever find the absolute, incontrovertible truth? Maybe not. But this isn't the point. The point is that I want to know that by the end of my life I have fully exhausted my mind to its core by my insatiable drive to exert towards the truth. I want to die knowing that I came as damn close to the truth of this life as I possibly could have.

"The true value of a man is not determined by his possession, supposed or real, of Truth, but rather by his sincere exertion to get to the Truth. It is not possession of the Truth, but rather the pursuit of Truth by which he extends his powers and in which his ever-growing perfectibility is to be found. Possession makes one passive, indolent, and proud. If God were to hold all Truth concealed in his right hand, and in his left only the steady and diligent drive for Truth, albeit with the proviso that I would always and forever err in the process, and to offer me the choice, I would with all humility take the left hand."
--Gotthold Lessing


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7778235 - 12/19/07 03:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Hopefully I wouldn't take it too personally.. then I would try and create memories with friends and family and live as if this life I was living was the most important thing to ever happen. If the past was not allowing me to do this, I would have to go talk to someone so I could understand and move on. Hopefully things would get resolved and I'd be content, even if the world was often painful and my life was not important to anything or anyone besides myself and maybe a few lives I had impacted.


--------------------


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: Icelander]
    #7778685 - 12/19/07 06:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'd try to have fun, and "get my kicks before the whole shithouse goes down in flames".

To my best ability I would look into the suffering to discover and uproot as many weeds as possible. At the same time this realization would leave me liberated if I could fully embrace and accept it. Knowing for certain that everything will come to an end fills me with a tranquility. But I don't.

Sometimes during life I have taken a decision to end it. Every time I took this decision a great liberation came over me and a deep peace filled me. It left me feeling so good that I changed my mind.

When we accept that there is no hope we are free. Then hope sneaks in the backdoor, and life is trouble again.

Finally a chance to post these lyrics:


Hey mama, when you leave
Don't leave a thing behind
I don't want nothin'
I can't use nothin'


Take care into the hall
And if you see my friends
Tell them I'm fine
Not using nothin'


Almost burned out my eyes
Threw my ears down to the floor
I didn't see nothin'
I didn't hear nothin'


I stood there like a block of stone
Knowin' all I had to know
And nothin' more
Man, that's nothin'


As brothers our troubles are
Locked in each others arms
And you better pray
They never find you


Your back ain't strong enough
For burdens doublefold
They'd crush you down
Down into nothin'


Being born is going blind
And buying down a thousand times
To echoes strung
On pure temptation


Sorrow and solitude
These are the precious things
And the only words
That are worth rememberin'


Townes


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: Icelander]
    #7780192 - 12/20/07 01:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

My answer is Nietzsche's answer... is that cheating?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: Icelander]
    #7780491 - 12/20/07 05:42 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Sounds intriguing, but there's nothing rapturous about end-stage tertiary syphillis and nothing transcendental about how the great thinker got the disease.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7780590 - 12/20/07 07:02 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

didn't humanity already answer that question and create god?

i would think I too would strive to get closer to something light and warm to take away the senseless pain


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: Icelander]
    #7780612 - 12/20/07 07:12 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

my only problem with nietzsche is that his wordiness and word choice goes over my head

maybe i'll someday be able to finish and partially understand thus spoke zarathustra


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channel your inner Larry David


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: demiu5]
    #7780689 - 12/20/07 07:53 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I looked around and saw what Neitzsche was jiving at.

I have always felt that one can transcend conflict and polarities. Just takes a fulcrum to be studied, or some real intelligence.

Unfortunately people put off the finding of a fulcrum until it's too late for them to learn a response in time. And people kill their intelligent by not understanding, and not allowing them a forum of their peers who also possess ability.


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...or something







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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7780925 - 12/20/07 09:38 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I find meaning in knowing that I am an irreplaceable human being; that to someone, to something, I am so unique a match and necessity that the significance of my existence is immeasurable. Even if at times the importance of my existence isn't presently visible, I will know that it is only with time that I'll learn of what I am here for.


So you really can't do what I asked in my post? You have to make meaning for yourself at all costs. The above post of yours is not different from most religion.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: dorkus]
    #7780928 - 12/20/07 09:40 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

dorkus said:
I'd try to have fun, and "get my kicks before the whole shithouse goes down in flames".

To my best ability I would look into the suffering to discover and uproot as many weeds as possible. At the same time this realization would leave me liberated if I could fully embrace and accept it. Knowing for certain that everything will come to an end fills me with a tranquility. But I don't.

Sometimes during life I have taken a decision to end it. Every time I took this decision a great liberation came over me and a deep peace filled me. It left me feeling so good that I changed my mind.

When we accept that there is no hope we are free. Then hope sneaks in the backdoor, and life is trouble again.

Finally a chance to post these lyrics:


Hey mama, when you leave
Don't leave a thing behind
I don't want nothin'
I can't use nothin'


Take care into the hall
And if you see my friends
Tell them I'm fine
Not using nothin'


Almost burned out my eyes
Threw my ears down to the floor
I didn't see nothin'
I didn't hear nothin'


I stood there like a block of stone
Knowin' all I had to know
And nothin' more
Man, that's nothin'


As brothers our troubles are
Locked in each others arms
And you better pray
They never find you


Your back ain't strong enough
For burdens doublefold
They'd crush you down
Down into nothin'


Being born is going blind
And buying down a thousand times
To echoes strung
On pure temptation


Sorrow and solitude
These are the precious things
And the only words
That are worth rememberin'


Townes




Sounds pretty healthy to me.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: demiu5]
    #7780937 - 12/20/07 09:47 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

demius said:
my only problem with nietzsche is that his wordiness and word choice goes over my head

maybe i'll someday be able to finish and partially understand thus spoke zarathustra




Check out The Simpsons and Philosophy-The D'oh! of Homer by William Irwin, Mark Conard and Aeon Skoble I never really grokked Nietzsche until I read this really fun and interesting book. (especially if you liked the Simpsons)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: eve69]
    #7780943 - 12/20/07 09:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
Well, I looked around and saw what Nietzsche was jiving at.

I have always felt that one can transcend conflict and polarities. Just takes a fulcrum to be studied, or some real intelligence.

Unfortunately people put off the finding of a fulcrum until it's too late for them to learn a response in time. And people kill their intelligent by not understanding, and not allowing them a forum of their peers who also possess ability.





If all is as Nietzsche thought which I don't believe completely then in the end the only solution is to make a work of art out of your experience. In other words find a way to make meaning for yourself out of your own efforts. For myself I agree. I find meaning only in the pursuit of my truth and my pleasure and I don't for a moment believe it's "real".


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: Icelander]
    #7781041 - 12/20/07 10:29 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I don't mean it like that.

Practically I am of the Shakta-Dakini-Kundalini-Dzogchen-School. What that means I don't know. But it's something like this. I subscribe to the notion that things are, as the poet spoke, 'Red in tooth and claw' as that is obvious. Those words are Tennyson's, I believe. From 'In Memoriam,' Not Neitzsche's. However, on the flipside I also subscribe to a line from a song which goes, "We all have a weakness that digs within and leads us to each other." (Incubus - Dig). Now how those two work together is anyone's guess.

Beyond them however I find concilation and peace in the unconditonal freedom of the non-intellectual mind when it is free from self regulating and when it is afloat in the sea of nowness without concern.

Strangely, I have developed the ability to experience the two, or three things simultaneously. That is, lack of specific concern, fight and flight, and acceptance of mutuality of desire all as compatible. But then I suppose it takes a certain largess or generosity of spirit to do that. As in, I don't own the ocean, so I would never say, "Get off my fucking wave Dude." However, due to limitations of good sets at 5 AM, I will push to get my wave, to the limit of good sense, but not beyond. And if nothing else, I will relax and not be goal oriented and just appreciate the perfection of life which might be conspicuous, sometimes in the total absense of any goal orientation whatsoever.

I suppose the theme for what I am getting at is the ability to change gears.


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...or something







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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: eve69]
    #7781171 - 12/20/07 11:11 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

" However, due to limitations of good sets at 5 AM, I will push to get my wave, to the limit of good sense, but not beyond. And if nothing else, I will relax and not be goal oriented and just appreciate the perfection of life which might be conspicuous, sometimes in the total absense of any goal orientation whatsoever.

This is I believe what Nietzsche meant. Making of ones life a personal work of art.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7781412 - 12/20/07 12:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
My answer is Nietzsche's answer... is that cheating?




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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7781668 - 12/20/07 01:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Sounds intriguing, but there's nothing rapturous about end-stage tertiary syphillis and nothing transcendental about how the great thinker got the disease.




Which has nothing at all to do with this thread except once again to show your bias and closed and IMO, fearful mind. Carry on Markos.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/21/07 11:50 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: Icelander]
    #7785328 - 12/21/07 11:49 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The nihilist is in an unusual position in relation to the world. Unlike a Cartesian, the nihilist is never able to satisfy himself that the world is as it seems. He has no Archimedean Point on which to stand, and so no way to be certain of what is real or imaginary, or of what is true or false. This skepticism about man's ability to understand the world was described by Nietzsche as the "death of God." (3) Man's loss of faith in God and the eternal truths that He ensures undermines all structures of authority, leaving man in a position where, apart from his will to do so, he has no justification for asserting anything as true or false.(4) This responsibility for one's perspective is potentially crippling, and may lead to feelings of despair and negativity. If nothing can be known for certain, and if there are no objective standards by which to judge truth and falsehood, life could be seen as meaningless and absurd. Further, if life is meaningless and absurd, then there is no justification for choosing life over death.

All nihilists must deal with the issue of if and how life has value. This is the very topic which propelled Albert Camus' writing career, and as he observed, the nihilist is not committed to life denial or suicide. He may, instead, elect to suffer through life in uncertainty, struggling each and every day with feelings of negativity as an option against suicide and death. As another option, he may choose to rebel against this negative propensity and instead of feeling resentment towards his situation, will himself to experience the exhilaration of interpretive freedom. The choice of the nihilist is, then, not necessarily the choice between living or dying, but the choice between adopting a passive or an active stance towards the world. Both Camus and Nietzsche advocate the choice of active over passive nihilism.(5)

Passive nihilism is indicative of a decline in spiritual power. It is characterized by the inability to create, or in the extreme, to react. The passive nihilist is one who, when faced with the world's uncertainty, withdraws and refuses to engage the world. For him, uncertainty is a sufficient condition not to proceed through life, and so paralyzed by fear of the unknown and unknowable, he does nothing. Nietzsche describes this tendency as "...the weary nihilism that no longer attacks...a passive nihilism, a sign of weakness."(6)

Active nihilism, on the other hand, is indicative of a relative increase in spiritual power. The active nihilist sees freedom where the passive nihilist sees absurdity or meaninglessness. He chooses action and creation instead of passivity and withdrawal. For him, the lack of objective standards of truth motivates self created standards and criteria. The active nihilist is not active despite the unknown, but because of it. He possesses a store of creative energy and power which allows him to impose personal meaning on the world while never forgetting that he is the source and progenitor of that meaning. He is heroic in this sense, facing the world with courage and purpose.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinekrin
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: Icelander]
    #7786633 - 12/21/07 06:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Amazing!
Icelander I propose those passages as a form of personally satisfying beauty.
The characteristic descriptions given mirror very well the various fluctuations of personal spiritual energy I've felt my whole life.

And when one says absurdity,and meaningless, its basically unfathomable to understand them unless you experienced them, likewise with the feeling of contacting the electricity of new creations, or being swept into a natural flow of positive or mysterious energy that blossoms the most speachless situations


--------------------



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Offlinedeff
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: krin]
    #7787263 - 12/21/07 09:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

meaning is found in the present moment

if you are blissful there's nothing to worry about

clearing away the distractions from bliss can be challenging... but... well worth it :smile:


--------------------



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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: deff]
    #7787539 - 12/21/07 11:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Neitzsche speaks the truth but i'd be a fool to believe in him :shocked:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Primal unity, eternally suffering. [Re: krin]
    #7788760 - 12/22/07 12:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

krin said:
Amazing!
Icelander I propose those passages as a form of personally satisfying beauty.
The characteristic descriptions given mirror very well the various fluctuations of personal spiritual energy I've felt my whole life.

And when one says absurdity,and meaningless, its basically unfathomable to understand them unless you experienced them, likewise with the feeling of contacting the electricity of new creations, or being swept into a natural flow of positive or mysterious energy that blossoms the most speachless situations




Well to be honest Nietzsche and I part company on the absurdity and meaningless part. In fact by imposing his personal and somewhat negative views/meaning (the truly existent primal unity, eternally suffering and contradictory.) on the universe he is not being a good nihilist. Many people feel the universe is not absurd or in most ways negative. He was IMO projecting his personal feelings (most likely programs from early childhood) as the truth about the unknown.

In fact as far as I know we cannot know the meaning or purpose of life and so need not make a value judgment about it unless it serves us and we realize it is subjective only and not "truth". I see myself as a active nihilist at least in part.

Like I stated before we all can find only a piece of the puzzle whether we are Jesus, Nietzsche or you or I.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/22/07 12:18 PM)


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* You ARE the eternal NOW
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SkorpivoMusterion 3,933 77 02/14/05 03:35 PM
by CaptainJailew

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