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Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflinePhred
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An extended tangent
    #7777103 - 12/19/07 10:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

In this thread...

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7777060#Post7777060

... Zorbman opines that it was inevitable that the US go to war with Germany after Pearl Harbor, when Hitler's hand was forced and he made a pro forma declaration of war with America.

I'm interested in finding out why Zorb (and any others here who agree with him) is of this opinion. Was it really inevitable? Was it really necessary? Was it even the right thing (morally speaking) to do?



Phred


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: An extended tangent [Re: Phred]
    #7777111 - 12/19/07 10:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Germany declared war on us. So yeah, I think it was inevitable unless we wanted to stand by and wait for them to make good on that declaration.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: An extended tangent [Re: Silversoul]
    #7777182 - 12/19/07 10:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

yeah not to mention we were like this :hug: with Britain so as soon as hitler moved against us it was a done deal.


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"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
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"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: An extended tangent [Re: Phred]
    #7777367 - 12/19/07 11:45 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I won't try and say whether or not our involvement was the right moral decision.

But yeah it seems like the US, being a country with International Allies and scope, couldn't really ignore WWII any more. Japan dealt a serious blow to our Navy...how could we not retaliate in order to protect our military? Hitler declaring war on us was clearly not an idle threat given his track record of invading country after country. When he got done blitzkreiging Europe, the Axis armies would have turned their attention to us, even if they had been seriously depleted. And make no mistake, the Allies were losing in Europe. If we had any interest in protecting our Nation from Germany, Russia and Japan we had to get involed in the European theatre while Britain was still kicking. And hell, that might not have worked out if hitler hadn't declared war on the Soviets.

So yeah, I think it was the moment when involvement became inevitable. Inevitable as long as the US wanted to have a military and International allies.


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: An extended tangent [Re: Phred]
    #7777419 - 12/19/07 12:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I would need to see some strong contrary evidence before I would move away from the idea that as a practical matter the US had the option of not attacking Germany.

German U-boats had been attacking U.S. merchant ships and even a few civilian ones. After they declared war, the U-boats moved to the eastern seaboard. Why would anyone expect the American people to calmly stand by and let that happen considering we were already at war with Germany's ally, Japan, and Germany had declared war on us?

Sure, no German invasion force was imminent but Germany did have the largest submarine fleet in WWII. And if they took Europe would an invasion be far behind?

I can see arguing that we might have done Japan first and then Germany. But not Germany at all.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: An extended tangent [Re: zorbman]
    #7778105 - 12/19/07 03:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Don't forget that France and England declared war on Germany. The Nazis came to power because of the Versailles treaty. France and England were trying to keep Germany down. That's the cause of WWI.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: An extended tangent [Re: Phred]
    #7778277 - 12/19/07 04:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The US had the lend-lease act with England that practically put them at war with Germany, many merchant marine ships were sunk, and at one time the British and Americans occupied Iceland as a training excercise for upcoming hostilities with Germany.

War was an obvious inevitabilty.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: An extended tangent [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7778331 - 12/19/07 04:26 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

To get to what I think is the real point of the matter here, you have to take a lot of hypotheticals. So, let's imagine if the following were true:

1. Germany did not declare war on us
2. There was no lend-lease treaty with England.
3. Japan didn't attack us.

In other words, assume no one initiated force against us. Would it still be ethical to go to war with Nazi Germany?

I'm still not even sure this is enough hypotheticals, because there was no reason to believe that Germany's rabid expansionism would not eventually extend to us.

So let's take the further assumption that Germany did not expand its borders and the Holocaust only took place within Germany's borders. Would it still have been ethical to invade?


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