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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #7786574 - 12/21/07 06:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

for me, I like to actually have data that is based on the actual observation itself

Well, thermometer records are only available for a few hundred years, so there's no choice but to find indirect ways to measure. But, ice cores aren't the only evidence.

Cores can be taken from the bottom of the ocean and from rocks. These measurements don't rely on trapped air bubbles and use entirely different methodologies. For example, the age of an ice bubble is determined by its depth, but the age of a sea bed core sample is determined by the rock's composition and its distance from the point at which the tectonic plates are moving apart. Anything near the plate boundary is young, and anything far is older. This is because the plates are spreading apart and the void left at the boundary is being filled in with new volcanic rock from deep inside the earth.

The density of certain molecules in fossilized plants on land can also indirectly give us temperature and the age of the fossil can be determined by the decay of radioisotopes.

Other sediments both in the ocean and in dry and wet lake beds change composition based on temperature and CO2 concentrations because these parameters affect the rate of some key chemical reactions. By looking at the resulting compounds made by these chemical reactions, the temperature when the reactions took place can be estimated. Their ages can be determined both by radioisotope dating and by measuring the depth at which they were found.

All these and and many other independent methods of measuring by different branches of science more or less agree on the temperature record.

It might be that some unknown process is coloring our ice core data, but it's very unlikely that all these different methods are yielding wrong results that somehow agree with the ice core data and with each other.

That's why we have confidence that the temperature record is pretty good even though it's not perfect.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: Diploid]
    #7787310 - 12/21/07 09:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

That response took me back to blessed Earth Science....you have quite the scientific mind.........you mentioned the ocean floor....since hydrostatic pressure exists there would be many parts of the ocean unattainable for samples, no?


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Offlinesnoopaloop53
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #7814252 - 12/30/07 04:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Human activity probably has had a significant affect on the current world climate. However, what is more important now, reducing emissions to a certain level determined by some int'l body or developing ways to deal with the current situation of a changing environment? Keep in mind there are only a finite pool of resources to do either with.

I think that by acknowledging the changes we have in part brought about and learning from that we can improve the environment without setting arbitrary standards everyone is required to meet. Making smart decisions for the future will be more effective than trying to fix mistakes of the past because we know better now.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #7842248 - 01/07/08 03:32 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Br-r-r! Where did global warming go?
By Jeff Jacoby
Globe Columnist / January 6, 2008

THE STARK headline appeared just over a year ago. "2007 to be 'warmest on record,' " BBC News reported on Jan. 4, 2007. Citing experts in the British government's Meteorological Office, the story announced that "the world is likely to experience the warmest year on record in 2007," surpassing the all-time high reached in 1998.
But a funny thing happened on the way to the planetary hot flash: Much of the planet grew bitterly cold.

In South America, for example, the start of winter last year was one of the coldest ever observed. According to Eugenio Hackbart, chief meteorologist of the MetSul Weather Center in Brazil, "a brutal cold wave brought record low temperatures, widespread frost, snow, and major energy disruption." In Buenos Aires, it snowed for the first time in 89 years, while in Peru the cold was so intense that hundreds of people died and the government declared a state of emergency in 14 of the country's 24 provinces. In August, Chile's agriculture minister lamented "the toughest winter we have seen in the past 50 years," which caused losses of at least $200 million in destroyed crops and livestock.

Latin Americans weren't the only ones shivering.

University of Oklahoma geophysicist David Deming, a specialist in temperature and heat flow, notes in the Washington Times that "unexpected bitter cold swept the entire Southern Hemisphere in 2007." Johannesburg experienced its first significant snowfall in a quarter-century. Australia had its coldest ever June. New Zealand's vineyards lost much of their 2007 harvest when spring temperatures dropped to record lows.

Closer to home, 44.5 inches of snow fell in New Hampshire last month, breaking the previous record of 43 inches, set in 1876. And the Canadian government is forecasting the coldest winter in 15 years.

Now all of these may be short-lived weather anomalies, mere blips in the path of the global climatic warming that Al Gore and a host of alarmists proclaim the deadliest threat we face. But what if the frigid conditions that have caused so much distress in recent months signal an impending era of global cooling?

"Stock up on fur coats and felt boots!" advises Oleg Sorokhtin, a fellow of the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences and senior scientist at Moscow's Shirshov Institute of Oceanography. "The latest data . . . say that earth has passed the peak of its warmer period, and a fairly cold spell will set in quite soon, by 2012."

Sorokhtin dismisses the conventional global warming theory that greenhouse gases, especially human-emitted carbon dioxide, is causing the earth to grow hotter. Like a number of other scientists, he points to solar activity - sunspots and solar flares, which wax and wane over time - as having the greatest effect on climate.

"Carbon dioxide is not to blame for global climate change," Sorokhtin writes in an essay for Novosti. "Solar activity is many times more powerful than the energy produced by the whole of humankind." In a recent paper for the Danish National Space Center, physicists Henrik Svensmark and Eigil Friis-Christensen concur: "The sun . . . appears to be the main forcing agent in global climate change," they write.

Given the number of worldwide cold events, it is no surprise that 2007 didn't turn out to be the warmest ever. In fact, 2007's global temperature was essentially the same as that in 2006 - and 2005, and 2004, and every year back to 2001. The record set in 1998 has not been surpassed. For nearly a decade now, there has been no global warming. Even though atmospheric carbon dioxide continues to accumulate - it's up about 4 percent since 1998 - the global mean temperature has remained flat. That raises some obvious questions about the theory that CO2 is the cause of climate change.

Yet so relentlessly has the alarmist scenario been hyped, and so disdainfully have dissenting views been dismissed, that millions of people assume Gore must be right when he insists: "The debate in the scientific community is over."

But it isn't. Just last month, more than 100 scientists signed a strongly worded open letter pointing out that climate change is a well-known natural phenomenon, and that adapting to it is far more sensible than attempting to prevent it. Because slashing carbon dioxide emissions means retarding economic development, they warned, "the current UN approach of CO2 reduction is likely to increase human suffering from future climate change rather than to decrease it."

Climate science isn't a religion, and those who dispute its leading theory are not heretics. Much remains to be learned about how and why climate changes, and there is neither virtue nor wisdom in an emotional rush to counter global warming - especially if what's coming is a global Big Chill.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #7842272 - 01/07/08 04:26 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Sorokhtin dismisses the conventional global warming theory that greenhouse gases, especially human-emitted carbon dioxide, is causing the earth to grow hotter. Like a number of other scientists, he points to solar activity - sunspots and solar flares, which wax and wane over time - as having the greatest effect on climate.




What does he know. Does he have a nobel prize? I don't think so. Listen to Al Gore folks, he is a real scientist that knows how to claim other people's work as his own! He invented the Internet; I think that qualifies him as an expert on pollution.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! *DELETED* [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #7844580 - 01/07/08 05:09 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Post deleted by EntheogenicPeace

Reason for deletion: ---


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--- nothing right now ---


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7844964 - 01/07/08 06:33 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

Because slashing carbon dioxide emissions means retarding economic development...




It only means 'retarding economic development' if a people's primary energy source is burning fossil fuels, & a people's primary energy source needn't be burning fossil fuels...




CO2 is a product of burning anything.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7845260 - 01/07/08 07:34 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

depends on what you mean by burn


usually this just means a non-explosive oxidation of something... but I can't think of anything used for large-scale energy that is burned and doesn't produce carbon dioxide


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7846789 - 01/08/08 03:16 AM (16 years, 24 days ago)

> CO2 is a product of burning anything.

Almost... you can burn a wax candle in chlorine gas without any oxygen at all, thus no CO2 is produced. In the context of your post, this is a pointless bit of trivia.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: Seuss]
    #7846886 - 01/08/08 05:15 AM (16 years, 24 days ago)

I'm very responsible with the environment. I burn all my candles under chlorine to avoid contributing to the CO2 rise. It's a bitch during hurricane season! :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: Seuss]
    #7847204 - 01/08/08 09:41 AM (16 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> CO2 is a product of burning anything.

Almost... you can burn a wax candle in chlorine gas without any oxygen at all, thus no CO2 is produced. In the context of your post, this is a pointless bit of trivia.




Iron oxidizing (rust) also doesn't produce CO2. I was using burn in the common usage, not the actual technical sense.

EP: Why do I mention this? Because you demonized fossil fuel burning. Other than some nuclear routine, there is no alternative other than burning something that can produce any significant contribution.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7847366 - 01/08/08 10:52 AM (16 years, 24 days ago)

> I was using burn in the common usage, not the actual technical sense.

As was I. You can literally lower a lit candle into a jar filled with chlorine gas and the candle will continue to burn, using the chlorine in place of oxygen. The flame is more dim and the smoke is heavy, but it continues to burn with a flame in the traditional/common usage of the word.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! *DELETED* [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7849052 - 01/08/08 05:02 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

Post deleted by EntheogenicPeace

Reason for deletion: ---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/08/08 05:48 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7849346 - 01/08/08 05:44 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

You were doing great until "Jim Crow". Kind of. There is no way we will do anything that weakens us against the emerging colossus. All those things you mentioned couldn't come close to providing for our needs.

The only hope is in fusion.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Lots of ice cubes now [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #8043129 - 02/19/08 02:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Global Warming? New Data Shows Ice Is Back

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:55 AM

By: Phil Brennan

Are the world's ice caps melting because of climate change, or are the reports just a lot of scare mongering by the advocates of the global warming theory?

Scare mongering appears to be the case, according to reports from the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) that reveal that almost all the allegedly “lost” ice has come back. A NOAA report shows that ice levels which had shrunk from 5 million square miles in January 2007 to just 1.5 million square miles in October, are almost back to their original levels.

Moreover, a Feb. 18 report in the London Daily Express showed that there is nearly a third more ice in Antarctica than usual, challenging the global warming crusaders and buttressing arguments of skeptics who deny that the world is undergoing global warming.

The Daily express recalls the photograph of polar bears clinging on to a melting iceberg which has been widely hailed as proof of the need to fight climate change and has been used by former Vice President Al Gore during his "Inconvenient Truth" lectures about mankind’s alleged impact on the global climate.

Gore fails to mention that the photograph was taken in the month of August when melting is normal. Or that the polar bear population has soared in recent years.

As winter roars in across the Northern Hemisphere, Mother Nature seems to have joined the ranks of the skeptics.

As the Express notes, scientists are saying the northern Hemisphere has endured its coldest winter in decades, adding that snow cover across the area is at its greatest since 1966. The newspaper cites the one exception — Western Europe, which had, until the weekend when temperatures plunged to as low as -10 C in some places, been basking in unseasonably warm weather.

Around the world, vast areas have been buried under some of the heaviest snowfalls in decades. Central and southern China, the United States, and Canada were hit hard by snowstorms. In China, snowfall was so heavy that over 100,000 houses collapsed under the weight of snow.

Jerusalem, Damascus, Amman, and northern Saudi Arabia report the heaviest falls in years and below-zero temperatures. In Afghanistan, snow and freezing weather killed 120 people. Even Baghdad had a snowstorm, the first in the memory of most residents.

AFP news reports icy temperatures have just swept through south China, stranding 180,000 people and leading to widespread power cuts just as the area was recovering from the worst weather in 50 years, the government said Monday. The latest cold snap has taken a severe toll in usually temperate Yunnan province, which has been struck by heavy snowfalls since Thursday, a government official from the provincial disaster relief office told AFP.

Twelve people have died there, state Xinhua news agency reported, and four remained missing as of Saturday.

An ongoing record-long spell of cold weather in Vietnam's northern region, which started on Jan. 14, has killed nearly 60,000 cattle, mainly bull and buffalo calves, local press reported Monday. By Feb. 17, the spell had killed a total of 59,962 cattle in the region, including 7,349 in the Ha Giang province, 6,400 in Lao Cai, and 5,571 in Bac Can province, said Hoang Kim Giao, director of the Animal Husbandry Department under the Vietnamese Ministry of Agriculture and Rural Development, according to the Pioneer newspaper.

In Britain the temperatures plunged to -10 C in central England, according to the Express, which reports that experts say that February could end up as one of the coldest in Britain in the past 10 years with the freezing night-time conditions expected to stay around a frigid -8 C until at least the middle of the week. And the BBC reports that a bus company's efforts to cut global warming emissions have led to services being disrupted by cold weather.

Meanwhile Athens News reports that a raging snow storm that blanketed most of Greece over the weekend and continued into the early morning hours on Monday, plunging the country into sub-zero temperatures. The agency reported that public transport buses were at a standstill on Monday in the wider Athens area, while ships remained in ports, public services remained closed, and schools and courthouses in the more severely-stricken prefectures were also closed.

Scores of villages, mainly on the island of Crete, and in the prefectures of Evia, Argolida, Arcadia, Lakonia, Viotia, and the Cyclades islands were snowed in.

More than 100 villages were snowed-in on the island of Crete and temperatures in Athens dropped to -6 C before dawn, while the coldest temperatures were recorded in Kozani, Grevena, Kastoria and Florina, where they plunged to -12 C.

Temperatures in Athens dropped to -6 C before dawn, while the coldest temperatures were recorded in Kozani, Grevena, Kastoria and Florina, where they plunged to -12 C.

If global warming gets any worse we'll all freeze to death.

© 2008 Newsmax. All rights reserved.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Lots of ice cubes now [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #8043400 - 02/19/08 03:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

A few questions:

The article mentions that Antarctic ice has increased and then says polar bear populations have increased in recent years.

Aren't polar bears native to the North Pole rather than the South Pole?

And isn't the ice thinning there (in the Arctic)?

We know that polar bears chief food source is seals and since their killing has been curtailed recently wouldn't that be expected to cause an increase in polar bear populations? ( As long as the bears have ice to rest upon.)

Also I read recently that NASA says the Arctic could be ice-free by the summer of 2013.* What are the bears supposed to do then? Construct floating bear barges?

One other thing I noticed about the article was that it highlights selected areas where temperatures have been cooler than normal in the last few months. Isn't the debate about Global average temperatures over a span of years rather than regional fluctuations over the course of a few weeks or months?

*http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2008-01/2008-01-09-voa12.cfm?CFID=272829339&CFTOKEN=77121182


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Lots of ice cubes now [Re: zorbman]
    #8046081 - 02/20/08 03:29 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't know enough about polar bears to say.

As the article mentions ice "caps" I'd say they were discussing both.

One of the main points of this thread was merely to demonstrate that there is insufficient evidence for panic, no consensus and conflicting information.


Quote:


Also I read recently that NASA says the Arctic could be ice-free by the summer of 2013.




So what. In the 70's we were reading about the coming ice age.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (02/20/08 03:37 AM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Lots of ice cubes now [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #8046097 - 02/20/08 03:45 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

When it comes to something that could potentially wipe out humanity, precaution is a good idea.


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Offlineboomer q
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Re: Lots of ice cubes now [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #8047046 - 02/20/08 12:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

global warming doesnt mean that the temperature at every point on the earth gets warmer all together. global warming theory predicts extreme and erratic weather patterns in both directions, hot and cold. hence the snowfall in regions where its uncommon, and powerful winter storms. the author of this article seems to think that the number of snowflakes which hit the earth is an accurate measure of the earths average temperature. this is false


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I got bags of funk and i sell em by the tons


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Re: Lots of ice cubes now [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #8047155 - 02/20/08 12:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
I don't know enough about polar bears to say.

As the article mentions ice "caps" I'd say they were discussing both.

One of the main points of this thread was merely to demonstrate that there is insufficient evidence for panic, no consensus and conflicting information.


Quote:


Also I read recently that NASA says the Arctic could be ice-free by the summer of 2013.




So what. In the 70's we were reading about the coming ice age.





well, i know enough about polar bears to tell you they live only in the northern hemisphere, and that the average depth of arctic ice is only 3 feet thick, and thinning, and no one from "Newsmax" is gonna convince me oherwise


as for having sufficient evidence for panic, i would have to disagree. first of all there is consensus among the scientific community.... if you go to 100 doctors and 95 of them tell you that you have cancer, are you gonna say that theres no consensus because the other 5 guys arent convinced? of course not. when determining a hazard, you have to factor in the probability of something happening and also the consequences of it happening. take, for example, asteroids. scientists agree that theres a small chance of a really big one hitting while we're around, but the consequences of it hapenning would be totally devistating. thats why people are spending alot of money to figure out how to move asteroids out of our orbit when we find them..

Its the same thing with gobal warming. even IF there WASENT overwhelming consensus of the comming crisis, it should still be taken very seriously because of the consequences. if the predictions are true, the face of the earth will litteraly be changed, and more species could die off than when the dinosaurs went extinct, not to mention what i feel is much less significant, that our way of life would completely change. any scenario in which the consequences are so dire should be avoided at all costs, and at the moment, people who feel the evidence isnt there have been ignoring the possible consequences. even if its not fact, its a serious possibility, and EVERYONE should take it seriously.


also, 2013 is only 5 years away


--------------------
I got bags of funk and i sell em by the tons


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