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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum



Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: Diploid]
#7781982 - 12/20/07 02:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: It's a fucked up system when the IPCC lies, when scientist can't speak their mind without losing their job and when scientists can't do anti-anthropogenic warming research because nobody will fund it for fear of retribution by a hysterical public.
Huh. Interesting sentiment. Other sources would suggest that scientists who are interested in conducting research that proves global warming doesn't exist stand to make pretty good money
Union of Concerned Scientists:
Quote:
ExxonMobil-funded organizations consist of an overlapping collection of individuals serving as staff, board members, and scientific advisors that publish and re-publish the works of a small group of climate change contrarians. The George C. Marshall Institute, for instance, which has received $630,000 from ExxonMobil, recently touted a book edited by Patrick Michaels, a long-time climate change contrarian who is affiliated with at least 11 organizations funded by ExxonMobil. Similarly, ExxonMobil funds a number of lesser-known groups such as the Annapolis Center for Science-Based Public Policy and Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow. Both groups promote the work of several climate change contrarians, including Sallie Baliunas, an astrophysicist who is affiliated with at least nine ExxonMobil-funded groups.
Baliunas is best known for a 2003 paper alleging the climate had not changed significantly in the past millennia that was rebutted by 13 scientists who stated she had misrepresented their work in her paper. This renunciation did not stop ExxonMobil-funded groups from continuing to promote the paper. Through methods such as these, ExxonMobil has been able to amplify and prop up work that has been discredited by reputable climate scientists.
This one actually quite thought-provoking:http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2005/05/some_like_it_hot.html
Hmmm. Right wing publications produce journalism compromising the notion of anthropogenic global warming, and then left wing publications produce journalism compromise right wing research. A pattern emerges. Consensus is a long way off.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! *DELETED* [Re: gluke bastid]
#7781994 - 12/20/07 03:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Post deleted by EntheogenicPeace
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: Diploid]
#7782010 - 12/20/07 03:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: it is to our benefit that we preserve the ecosystem.
If the ecosystem is warming on its own (and despite what you say, this may be what is happening) then preserving the ecosystem means leaving it alone so it can continue to do its thing and warm up. That's what the ecosystem has done over and over for as long as there are records and long before we were here.
Question: If we had the power to alter history, do you think we should go back in time and interfere with every other temperature peak on the graph throughout human history?
If not, why not? And why doesn't that answer apply to the current temperature peak?
All I've been advocating is going with the near-consensus among scientists regarding anthropogenic global warming and taking measures to cut back our greenhouse gas emissions. If global warming reaches emergency levels(which for us would be a rise in temperature over 2° C), ONLY THEN would I advocate more drastic measures.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7782025 - 12/20/07 03:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Is that based on any evidence or just a wild ass guess on your part? How much did Al and his pals collect for the false and scurrilous "Inconvenient Truth"? Theater box as of a few months ago is $50M. I'm guessing they're going to pocket 9 figures after all is said and done. No production costs and no ad budget and no truth. Plus the excoriation the skeptical heretics receive and the general trend in research buck allocations and I think you are completely and irrevocably full of shit. "But but but but Exxon gave $70,000.00000000000000000000000000000000000 In one yearrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: gluke bastid]
#7782035 - 12/20/07 03:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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scientists who are interested in conducting research that proves global warming doesn't exist stand to make pretty good money
The bigger point is that any anti-anthropogenic report funded by the oil industry is going to be ignored, rightly or wrongly.
Any report funded by a university or the UN is going to get attention.
That's the current biased and conflicted climate in which this debate is taking place and those things usually lead to bad science.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: Silversoul]
#7782103 - 12/20/07 03:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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All I've been advocating is going with the near-consensus among scientists regarding anthropogenic global warming and taking measures to cut back our greenhouse gas emissions. If global warming reaches emergency levels(which for us would be a rise in temperature over 2° C), ONLY THEN would I advocate more drastic measures.
OK, then we're sorta in agreement. I think it makes sense, even absent anthropogenicy, to be conservative with the climate. This just as a matter of being good stewards of our planet.
But I don't think the current pool of evidence warrants immediate draconian measures on industries that will have negative effects on the economy and the lives of many people, and that's what a lot of the alarmists are demanding.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: Diploid]
#7782206 - 12/20/07 04:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
OK, then we're sorta in agreement. I think it makes sense, even absent anthropogenicy, to be conservative with the climate. This just as a matter of being good stewards of our planet.
But I don't think the current pool of evidence warrants immediate draconian measures on industries that will have negative effects on the economy and the lives of many people, and that's what a lot of the alarmists are demanding.
Sounds like a reasonable approach to me. There is no certainty here. Let's say we conclude humans are the culprit. And we act. Even if that conclusion was ultimately wrong, what would we have done? Provided cleaner water, air and a healthier environment.
Things we should be doing anyway.
The needed technological innovations would spawn new industries, create high-paying jobs and help increase our standard of living.
On the other hand, what if we failed to act and were wrong? This scenario would likely spell a nasty future for ourselves and future generations.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
Edited by zorbman (12/20/07 04:31 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: Diploid]
#7782284 - 12/20/07 04:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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One thing occurs to me.
Say it eventually becomes irrefutable that anthropogenicy is real and the US, Canada, Europe and other responsible countries curb emissions.
Who's going to tell China, Russia, and their ilk to follow that lead? Shit, we can't even get Japan to stop killing and eating endangered whales, and there is NO debate that they really are endangered.
Even if warming is a human-caused problem, I don't see any realistic way to stop it given current international politics. Double that with the massive erosion of good-will toward the US since Bush's pissing contest began.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: Diploid]
#7782440 - 12/20/07 05:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: One thing occurs to me.
Say it eventually becomes irrefutable that anthropogenicy is real and the US, Canada, Europe and other responsible countries curb emissions.
Who's going to tell China, Russia, and their ilk to follow that lead? Shit, we can't even get Japan to stop killing and eating endangered whales, and there is NO debate that they really are endangered.
Even if warming is a human-caused problem, I don't see any realistic way to stop it given current international politics. Double that with the massive erosion of good-will the US has lost since Bush's pissing contest began.
I actually think technology is going to advance in this field faster than politics can keep up. Keep an eye on the Rocky Mountain Institute. I have a feeling they're going to be very busy in the years to come, as will other groups like them.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! *DELETED* [Re: Diploid]
#7782441 - 12/20/07 05:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Post deleted by EntheogenicPeace
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7782856 - 12/20/07 07:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree. Oil's gonna be a mainstay for awhile (at least a few more decades), but there is absolutely no reason not to be heavily investing in approaches that will phase it out
I've said before that the trillion or so dollars we've spent making war, and the ongoing many billions more that will be spent on all those soldiers' salaries when they come home, pensions when they retire, medical care for them and dependents for life, and so on would have been far better invested in developing technologies to free us from dependence on terrorist oil.
But noooo! Instead of being on our way to oil-independence, we instead have a huge deficit, ill-will from much of the world's population, many thousands dead, rich terrorists, and $3/gallon fuel prices to feed our technologically-backward cars.
Good going Bush.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 1 hour, 12 minutes
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: Silversoul]
#7783552 - 12/20/07 09:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think that this was a very good thread....I am on the fence on this one....but one thing that everyone will have to agree on here is:
1. at one time, this planet was nearly covered entirely by ice
2. most of it melted
3. All of the above took place before humans
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! *DELETED* [Re: SirTripAlot]
#7783604 - 12/20/07 09:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Post deleted by EntheogenicPeace
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
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Last seen: 1 hour, 12 minutes
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7783643 - 12/20/07 09:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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What I find it hard to fathom is how we measure the temperature of past years.......the thermometer was invented around 1650......so how can we actually no what to compare the last twenty years too?
I think people back in the day did not have the stranglehold on climate that we do today.....thus the difficulty in establishing valid data, as far as a comparison goes.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: SirTripAlot]
#7783688 - 12/20/07 10:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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It can be done using methods such as drilling ice cores. They then analyze things such as the chemical makeup, flora, and gas composition to determine very precisely what the temperature was at that time. Every temperature leaves a specific fingerprint.
Past rainfall amounts can be measured by analyzing tree rings.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: SirTripAlot]
#7783700 - 12/20/07 10:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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There are lots of indirect and mutually-agreeing methods to determine the temperature of the Earth before there were thermometers.
For example, measuring the isotopic ratio of gas bubbles trapped in ancient ice core samples correlates with the temperature at which water vapor condenses as water or or snow. By measuring these isotopes, you can get an indirect estimate of the temperature when the ice bubbles formed.
With foreknowledge of how deep in the core sample the bubble came from and by counting the yearly bands of ice laid down, the date when the bubble formed can be estimated too.
This is similar to how a 100 year old tree's age can be determined by counting rings in the trunk. And how cold and warm years, and wet and dry years, and even when there were forest fires can all be determined by the thickness, color, and character of each ring.
Read this for more.
Edit: zorb beat me to it.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?



Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7784692 - 12/21/07 07:23 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
On a serious note: I'm not aware of any other reason than racism in why someone could support the death penalty for a monster who commit a horrific crime against one or two other people, but that same person has no problem with somebody like William Calley (& plenty of others involved) getting a few years house arrest & then being pardoned by the president.
Always fun to watch people who, when they can't win an argument, resort (inaccurately) to the racism card.
Kinda sad really.
Quote:
I clicked on all three links & nothing came up.
Pretty weak. Still haven't figured out how to cut and paste?
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
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Last seen: 1 hour, 12 minutes
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: Diploid]
#7784734 - 12/21/07 07:47 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah thats right...I have heard of that before....but not to be an ass.....for me, I like to actually have data that is based on the actual observation itself......who knows, maybe something in Mother Nature has/is effecting these ice cores to give off inaccurate indications?....maybe even the calculations that are puny brains use is the wrong formula?
http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Antarctic_Snow_Inaccurate_Temperature_Archive.html
Both sides of the issue would benefit from actual temperature recordings in days past; if they exisited.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (12/21/07 07:49 AM)
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! *DELETED* [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#7785333 - 12/21/07 11:49 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Post deleted by EntheogenicPeace
Reason for deletion: ---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (12/21/07 11:56 AM)
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7786553 - 12/21/07 06:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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