|
AnonymousRabbit
Comrade


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 8,993
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
|
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: zappaisgod]
#8112747 - 03/06/08 07:11 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Boy, Zappa. I'm just glad that scientists do not have the same "Respect" for science as you do.
Quote:
You keep giving me links to minutia that don't answer my question.
Wrong. They totally answered your question. Maybe it wasn't the bow-tied answer you are looking for, but the science is clear. CO2 affects the outward radiation through damping the outward 15 micron band and other bands, such as the 4.3 micrometer band. CO2 is much more important as one goes further out of the atmosphere, as H2O vapor becomes nearly nonexistant. Because of this effect, the upper atmosphere can sustain heating, and then transfer it to the lower atmosphere. The more CO2 in the upper atmosphere, the more heating can be sustained through the blockage of these band.
But fine, you want a VERY recent source? Here:
http://ams.allenpress.com/archive/1520-0469/47/7/pdf/i1520-0469-47-7-809.pdf
1990.
Quote:
The conclusion of the first hot and isotopic CO2 bands near 4.3 micrometers has been shown to be important to the radiative energy budget of the mesosphere because they augment CO2 net heating rates at altitudes near the 80 km level.
And another line...
Quote:
"In summary, we conclude that net heating rates by carbon dioxide are important for the radiative ballance of the mesosphere since they maximize at the place where the most important radiative sources and sinks are minimum. We provide here updated solar heating and thermal cooling rates by CO2 near infrared bands which may be useful for inclusion in dynamical models of the mesosphere and lower thermosphere."
Basically, because CO2 is one of the final reflectors of heat in the atmosphere, it contributes greatly to heating.
But, I'm sure you will take offense to that too. Look, man, I want to debate the science with you, but I can't do it if you are not willing to truly read my sources, get an understanding of them.
Quote:
zappa:
Infrared Radiative Cooling in the Middle Atmosphere
Come on man, who's zooming who?
(italics added by zappa)
I am quoting this again, because I really feel like this country is in a sad state of affairs with this statement. Why do people not try to get a greater understanding of the subject through the many resource available. Why do people try to start with their beliefs and base their facts off of their beliefs, rather than work from the facts and base their beliefs off of the facts? Right wing newspapers and non-peer-reviewed papers on the internet are considered good sources of information, but peer reviewed journal articles that have stood without being invalidated for 50 years are not. This is the state we have come to.
-------------------- .
Edited by AnonymousRabbit (03/06/08 07:42 PM)
|
The_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth


Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
|
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
#8113230 - 03/06/08 08:45 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I dont think your sources are any less biased.
|
AnonymousRabbit
Comrade


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 8,993
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
|
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
#8113354 - 03/06/08 09:10 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I dont think your sources are any less biased.
Thanks for your contribution to the debate. However, my sources span 20 academic journals, many scientific institutions, decades of climatological resource, and more. The sources I've been given for many of their claims? Right wing blogs and newspapers.
-------------------- .
Edited by AnonymousRabbit (03/06/08 09:10 PM)
|
joker_man
Stranger



Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 217
|
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
#8113464 - 03/06/08 09:31 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The_Red_Crayon said: I dont think your sources are any less biased.

Have you lost it, man?
Let's do a quick comparison.
Basically all of Phred's arguments and "data" stem from this one website. http://icecap.us
Here is one of the many sites supernova is drawing his sources from. http://ams.allenpress.com
If you can't see the inherent bias in Phred's source then you really have lost it.
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
|
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
#8114787 - 03/07/08 03:26 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
However, my sources span 20 academic journals, many scientific institutions, decades of climatological resource, and more.
As I stated before, when politics enters science, the science becomes as corrupt as the politics. Global warming is politics, not science. Citing politically motivated research doesn't make your point more valid. Again, look at the war on drugs and the massive amount of propaganda called "research" that is published in various medical and scientific journals. I'm not doubting your analysis of the data, but I am doubting the validity of the research the data is based upon; not because of what the data says, but because of the political nature of the subject.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
|
Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
|
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
#8115206 - 03/07/08 08:48 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Super, I would like you to answer the following questions, please:
1) -- By what mechanism(s) did the Earth come to have a higher temperature during the Medieval Warm Period (as just one of countless examples) than it does today?
2) -- Point us to the science proving that today's very mild rebound warming post-Little Ice Age (which lasted till around 1850 or so) is the result of a different mechanism than the one responsible for the Medieval Warm Period.
Thank you in advance.
Phred
--------------------
|
AnonymousRabbit
Comrade


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 8,993
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
|
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: Seuss]
#8115238 - 03/07/08 09:02 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
As I stated before, when politics enters science, the science becomes as corrupt as the politics. Global warming is politics, not science. Citing politically motivated research doesn't make your point more valid. Again, look at the war on drugs and the massive amount of propaganda called "research" that is published in various medical and scientific journals. I'm not doubting your analysis of the data, but I am doubting the validity of the research the data is based upon; not because of what the data says, but because of the political nature of the subject.
My sources go back over a century and use basic scientific facts. The physics are not really up for debate, and fairly simple. Sure, the math in the papers is a little dense, but Physics is one of the hardest sciences to "fake" if you will. It's VERY easily disproven, if the information is false, because physics applies at every single location, and the laws of physics are always the same. Furthermore, are you really claiming a conspiracy to only include global warming findings for the last 100 years? I mean, I don't even agree that academic sources have a global warming bias, I more believe that they have a science bias. When you look at the "scientifically appearing" anti-global warming "reports," you can easily see WHY they were never submitted for peer review. It isn't because of a vast global warming conspiracy, it's honestly because the science was against them from the start.
Some journals have come up, ones that are not regulated at all and closed off to general scientists, allowing pretty much only anti-global warming scientists to be part of the peer review process. They are usualy seen as small publications that have little more than anti-GW BS in them. I want to take you back to a thread that I helped debunk a long time ago, where even you, Seuss, said that it was a great thing that I backed up all of my data with sources.
Where I debunked a bullshit marijuana-causes-lung-cancer study
This study appeared in a "peer reviewed" resource. However, I very, very easily tore to shreads the information inside, because I actually looked and read the original source. It turns out, by combatting with REAL sources, from REAL peer reviewed journals, the information in this bogus source funded by the hoover institute was pretty much wrong. You left me a 5 shroom rating for my thorough debunking using the same scientific sources that you now chastise for being politically motivated otherwise.
I think your views may be a little off base, Seuss, when it comes to academia. Somehow, some way, academia has lost the publics trust. However, the veracity of the claims still stand, as does the argument. How to win the publics trust back? I really don't know. I'm more interested in the pure science of the debate, not the politicing.
-------------------- .
|
AnonymousRabbit
Comrade


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 8,993
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
|
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: Phred]
#8115360 - 03/07/08 09:42 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
"…current evidence does not support globally synchronous periods of anomalous cold or warmth over this time frame, and the conventional terms of 'Little Ice Age' and 'Medieval Warm Period' appear to have limited utility in describing trends in hemispheric or global mean temperature changes in past centuries"
Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Climate Change 2001: Working Group I: The Scientific Basis 2.3.3 Was there a “Little Ice Age” and a “Medieval Warm Period”?. Retrieved on 2006-05-04.
The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) states that the "idea of a global or hemispheric "Medieval Warm Period" that was warmer than today however, has turned out to be incorrect" and that what those "records that do exist show is that there was no multi-century periods when global or hemispheric temperatures were the same or warmer than in the 20th century".
You can read more about it here: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/medieval.html
The climate reconstruction known as the medieval warming period, instead of only applying to America, only applied to Europe and perhaps western Asia. The data only comes from about 12 places of measurement, contrary to the thousands of places of measurement temperautre is taken today.
Raymond S. Bradley, Malcolm K. Hughes, Henry F. Diaz (2003). "Climate in Medieval Time". Science 302 (5644): 404-405.
Using ice cores, the southern hemisphere was not warming, but in fact experienced a very cool period.
Khim, B-K; Yoon H.; Kang C.Y.; Bahk J.J. (November 2002). "Unstable Climate Oscillations during the Late Holocene in the Eastern Bransfield Basin, Antarctic Peninsula". Quaternary Research 58 (3): 234-245(12). Retrieved on 2006-05-04.
The Medieval warming period, was less of a "period," and certainly less "warming" than some would have you believe. It also, once again, was not global.
-------------------- .
|
Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
|
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
#8115527 - 03/07/08 10:34 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Oh, now this is just bullshit!
To refute this you link me to the thoroughly discredited Mann Hockey Stick?
This just shows once again your blind adherence to the Warmenist religion. The Mann Hockey Stick has been so thoroughly discredited that not even dedicated Warmenists dare mention it any longer. The Little Ice Age was real. So was the Medieval Warm Period. There is more supporting evidence for both those eras than there is room to list in ten pages of references.
The only "climatologists" who deny the existence of either are those with a political agenda.
Dude, up until now you've been wrong on a lot of things, but at least you haven't been ridiculous about it. But denying the existence of the Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warm Period is just over the top. And trying to back up this lame denial with the freaking Hockey Stick is even worse. You've just lot any credibility you may have had earlier in the thread.
Phred
--------------------
|
AnonymousRabbit
Comrade


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 8,993
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
|
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! *DELETED* [Re: Phred]
#8115859 - 03/07/08 12:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Post deleted by AnonymousRabbit
-------------------- .
Edited by AnonymousRabbit (03/07/08 12:51 PM)
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: Phred]
#8115964 - 03/07/08 12:58 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Phred said: Oh, now this is just bullshit!
To refute this you link me to the thoroughly discredited Mann Hockey Stick?
This just shows once again your blind adherence to the Warmenist religion. The Mann Hockey Stick has been so thoroughly discredited that not even dedicated Warmenists dare mention it any longer. The Little Ice Age was real. So was the Medieval Warm Period. There is more supporting evidence for both those eras than there is room to list in ten pages of references.
The only "climatologists" who deny the existence of either are those with a political agenda.
Dude, up until now you've been wrong on a lot of things, but at least you haven't been ridiculous about it. But denying the existence of the Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warm Period is just over the top. And trying to back up this lame denial with the freaking Hockey Stick is even worse. You've just lot any credibility you may have had earlier in the thread.
Phred
Poisoning the well, are we?
|
AnonymousRabbit
Comrade


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 8,993
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
|
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
#8115985 - 03/07/08 01:01 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Of course, what can I expect. This is from the guy (Phred) who said that THIS represented a cooling trendline:

Lol.
I'll quote him on it, too:
Quote:
Phred:
Just what the average global temperatures were for 120 months in a row. I say again, if you can look at that graph and with a straight face tell us that this represents an increasing trendline, I need say not another word for the readers of the thread to draw their own conclusions about your bias.
My response:

Yeah, I think that the readers of this thread can draw their own conclusions about my bias. I am biased to reality!
-------------------- .
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
#8116003 - 03/07/08 01:06 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I'm honestly surprised there is still a "Global Warming debate." I blame Al Gore...
|
AnonymousRabbit
Comrade


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 8,993
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
|
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#8116030 - 03/07/08 01:19 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I'm honestly surprised there is still a "Global Warming debate." I blame Al Gore...
Al Gore is just a strawman for people to intentionally muddy the issue. He's done a lot of good in raising awareness though, and fund raising.
-------------------- .
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
#8116041 - 03/07/08 01:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
"An Inconvenient Truth" created a terrible ticket mentality. It would have been nice if awareness about global warming could've been raised by scientists rather than politicians.
|
Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
|
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
#8116068 - 03/07/08 01:30 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
You are saying there was no Medieval Warm Period? That there was no Little Ice Age? That the Earth wasn't warmer in Roman times than it is today?
Don't even think of trying to defend Mann's hockey stick. Even Nature issued a correction on it. It's as disgraceful an episode of scientific dishonesty as we've seen in modern times. He was caught red-handed and his hockey stick fraud has been disavowed by all respectable climatologists. You'll note that even the freaking IPCC -- as politicized a "scientific" body as has ever existed -- has dumped it. The freaking IPCC! For years you couldn't open a press release from the IPCC without at least one and often several versions of that stinking hoax slapping you in the face. Not any longer. Gee, I wonder why?
The fact that you see fit to defend his hoax speaks volumes to your "objectivity" on this topic.
First Hansen, now Mann... who next? You gonna defend Al Gore's "science" too?
Phred
--------------------
|
AnonymousRabbit
Comrade


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 8,993
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
|
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: Phred]
#8116148 - 03/07/08 01:56 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
You are saying there was no Medieval Warm Period? That there was no Little Ice Age? That the Earth wasn't warmer in Roman times than it is today?
Don't even think of trying to defend Mann's hockey stick. Even Nature issued a correction on it. It's as disgraceful an episode of scientific dishonesty as we've seen in modern times. He was caught red-handed and his hockey stick fraud has been disavowed by all respectable climatologists. You'll note that even the freaking IPCC -- as politicized a "scientific" body as has ever existed -- has dumped it. The freaking IPCC! For years you couldn't open a press release from the IPCC without at least one and often several versions of that stinking hoax slapping you in the face. Not any longer. Gee, I wonder why?
The fact that you see fit to defend his hoax speaks volumes to your "objectivity" on this topic.
First Hansen, now Mann... who next? You gonna defend Al Gore's "science" too?
My god dude, you type the equivalent of a brick wall. Will you just READ what I posted RIGHT before you said this? Come on now. Tons of peer-reviewed resources, only two of which are Mann's versions, show the hockey stick. The Hockey stick graph is STILL very accurate, and the IPCC agrees.
So once again, you are wrong.
Briffa, Keith R.; Duplessy, Jean-Claude & Joos, Fortunat et al. (2007), "Chapter 6: Paleoclimate", in Pachauri, Rajendra K.; Solomon, Susan & Qin, Dahe et al., Working Group I: The Physical Basis of Climate Change, IPCC
Quote:
The first (Mann et al., 1999) represents mean annual temperatures, and is based on a range of proxy types, including data extracted from tree rings, ice cores and documentary sources; this reconstruction also incorporates a number of instrumental (temperature and precipitation) records from the 18th century onwards. For 900 years, this series exhibits multi-decadal fl uctuations with amplitudes up to 0.3°C superimposed on a negative trend of 0.15°C, followed by an abrupt warming (~0.4°C) matching that observed in the instrumental data during the fi rst half of the 20th century. Of the other two reconstructions, one (Jones et al., 1998) was based on a much smaller number of proxies, whereas the other (Briffa et al., 2001) was based solely on tree ring density series from an expansive area of the extratropics, but reached back only to AD 1400.
And then, page 467 of the IPC report last year has this graph:

So you are lying saying that the IPCC has "dumped it."
You are also lying when you are saying that it is Mann's hockey stick. It is not. There are SEVERAL different metrics that say the same thing.
-------------------- .
|
Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
|
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
#8116176 - 03/07/08 02:08 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
The first link you gave in support was to Mann's hockey stick. Just what do you think is meant by "Mann et al 1999" anyway?
The Medieval Warm Period happened. So did the Little Ice Age. So did the Roman Warm Period. So did countless other periods of warmer-than-mean and colder-than-mean temperatures. Yet man has been burning significant quantities of fossil fuels for less than a hundred years.
I ask again -- point us to the science which proves the mechanism/s responsible for warm periods in the past can't be responsible for today's very slight warming over the course of a century.
Phred
--------------------
|
Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
|
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: Phred]
#8116181 - 03/07/08 02:10 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Oh, and you are of course aware that Briffa's conclusions are also suspect and are hotly contested.
Phred
--------------------
|
AnonymousRabbit
Comrade


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 8,993
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
|
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: Phred]
#8116223 - 03/07/08 02:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The first link you gave in support was to Mann's hockey stick. Just what do you think is meant by "Mann et al 1999" anyway?
The Medieval Warm Period happened. So did the Little Ice Age. So did the Roman Warm Period. So did countless other periods of warmer-than-mean and colder-than-mean temperatures. Yet man has been burning significant quantities of fossil fuels for less than a hundred years.
Duck and run, duck and run, duck and run. 
I pretty much blew apart everything you just said, ranging from saying that mann's report itself was wrong, to the IPCC not sticking by it, to the existence of at least 10 other metrics that came out since mann's report that confirm his findings. Somehow you mean to tell me that 10 different metrics, all using different ways to reconstruct temperature, are wrong, because you read somewhere that mann's metric was wrong (its not)?
However, upon me listing all my sources and showing why what you said was false, I am glad that you have decided to turn the debate away from the hockey stick graph, because you know that its not BS.
Now, to move on,
Quote:
I ask again -- point us to the science which proves the mechanism/s responsible for warm periods in the past can't be responsible for today's very slight warming over the course of a century.
I've shown CO2 is responsible for warming through the use of physics and climatology over several threads, several posts, none of which you managed to disprove. I also pointed to the fact that the warming period that you called the "medieval warm period" was at its PEAK, a -.1 degree to 0 degree anomaly. The modern anomaly is +.6.
Where I list 30 sources that have concluded CO2 affects temperature Where I give official quotes from scientific organizations that solar variation is not responsible for the current warming trend Where I explain why and provide sources for why anthropogenic CO2 is the reason for the temperature increase and CO2 since 1880. Where another poster, seemingly caught between the sides, makes a good argument and comes to the conclusion that solar forcing is not responsible for modern heating, and that CO2 is a better correlation Another post where I showed a lack of correlation with solar irradiance Where I post two charts, showing lack of correlation with both Irradiance and Sunspot Numbers, and correlation with increasing CO2 Where I talked about the physics behind CO2 absorbtion of infrared frequencies and why they heat the atmosphere, using physics AND sources Where I post a peer reviewed paper about the physical effect of the 4.3-15 micron band blocking outgoing radiation Where I post an explanation in laymans terms, complete with peer-reviewed sources, as to the way that CO2 blocks outgoing heat Where I post a recent source showing why the heating and cooling rates with respect to CO2 are so important for temperature balance Where I show why PDO, sunspot number, and solar irradiance have bad correlations on graphs
Edited by AnonymousRabbit (03/07/08 02:50 PM)
|
|