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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
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Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8097813 - 03/03/08 02:11 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

They know how to take graphs and charts out of context and make it SEEM like they can pick apart an argument.




Cherry-picking is all they have.

If they made a presentation before a scientifically literate audience using their snipped and clipped charts and fingerpaintings they would be laughed out of the auditorium.

And now back to your pwnage..:popcorn:


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Registered: 01/10/08
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: zorbman]
    #8097842 - 03/03/08 02:21 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cherry-picking is all they have.

If they made a presentation before a scientifically literate audience using their snipped and clipped charts and fingerpaintings they would be laughed out of the auditorium.




Trust me, I know. Being someone who'se had to give a presentation in front of a scientifically literate audience on a scientific finding, it is one of the most stressful things a person can do. You know that each and every person there is smarter than you, or at least, thats how you feel. Each one has their own obscure, but excellent research, waiting like a gunnery turret to strike ANYTHING you say that is wrong down. So it takes months of fact checking leading up to the event to even feel like you MIGHT get out alive.


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8097867 - 03/03/08 02:26 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I would also like to point out, that the sunspot correlation DOES NOT WORK.



Nor does the solar irradiance work:




Something has to explain the warming since 1980, and it certainly isnt sunspots or solar irradiance.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: Phred]
    #8097885 - 03/03/08 02:30 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

how do I lock a thread?


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8097993 - 03/03/08 03:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I show graphs focusing on the time period in question, and with reasonable Y axes, not hugely exaggerated ones.

You, on the other hand, post graphs reaching back a hundred years or so, and often stopping before the end of 2007, much less January 2008, where the decade in question is jammed into the last quarter inch of the chart.

As I have said before, I posted four graphs from credible sources. We're not talking FOX News here, or WorldNet Daily, but four respected meteorological institutions. I am quite content to let the readers of the thread see for themselves what these charts say, including this NASA chart --



-- which, oddly enough, actually does cover the precise period under discussion, and does not have a wildly exaggerated Y axis, and which records actual data points, not "smoothings" or "extrapolations" or "running five year averages" or whatever. Just what the average global temperatures were for 120 months in a row. I say again, if you can look at that graph and with a straight face tell us that this represents an increasing trendline, I need say not another word for the readers of the thread to draw their own conclusions about your bias.

Let's forget all about the other three graphs, since you claim they are all bogus for one reason or another. Even though they reinforce my case, let's discard them completely to keep you happy. Let's look just at your NASA GISS graph and nothing else. And let's not look at your charts prepared for mass consumption Power Point presentations going back all the way to 1900 or whenever, with red and black lines drawn starting in 1970 or whenever. Let's look at what global temperatures have done since 1998. Dude, if you can tell the viewers of this thread with a straight face that the graph indicates an increase since 1998, I rest my case.

Again, if you think ten years is too long a period and we should be looking at just the last five years, that's fine by me. It still shows a decrease (albeit a much slighter one). If you think ten years is too short a period and we should be looking at twenty years instead, that's fine by me, too, although it's not what was asked. I will point out that if fireworks_god had asked what the temperatures have been doing since 1988, I wouldn't have given the same answer.

But it's all irrelevant anyway, because no one has yet established causation. Zap and Diploid (and Seuss, but not in this thread, I don't think) have all pointed out there is no proof the very tiny amount of warming seen over the last century is attributable to humans burning stuff. As a matter of fact, it is the height of arrogance to proclaim that we managed to pull this off, even though every single other warming period in history - many of them much more rapid and much more severe - occurred with no help from us whatsoever. Yet somehow, this time - and this time only - the same mechanism(s) responsible for past warming periods just can't be responsible! Why? Well.... because. Just because.



Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: Phred]
    #8098040 - 03/03/08 03:16 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I'd like him to explain why he presented an essay in defense of Robert Hansen, without any clear authorial indication, that was by Robert Hansen.

Robert Hansen is probably the single biggest producer of data for GISS. He toured the country whining that he was being censored (censorship by megaphone) when the rest of the scientists were being duly suspicious of his work. He traveled the land screaming that he was being censored. He has an odd idea of censorship. His work turned out to be unreliable and had to be restated. And then supernatural posts an unidentifiable essay that contains a deranged hatred of all things corporate and childlike admiration for the noble Onondaga Tribe and their oh so effective philosophy toward the stewardship of the earth.

Hansen is no more of a scientist than Al Gore and the IPCC is no more of a scientific organization than ELF.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: afoaf]
    #8098060 - 03/03/08 03:21 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Why would you want to? These last few pages have been much fun to read. :smirk:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8098258 - 03/03/08 04:05 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


I'd like him to explain why he presented an essay in defense of Robert Hansen, without any clear authorial indication, that was by Robert Hansen.

Robert Hansen is probably the single biggest producer of data for GISS. He toured the country whining that he was being censored (censorship by megaphone) when the rest of the scientists were being duly suspicious of his work. He traveled the land screaming that he was being censored. He has an odd idea of censorship. His work turned out to be unreliable and had to be restated. And then supernatural posts an unidentifiable essay that contains a deranged hatred of all things corporate and childlike admiration for the noble Onondaga Tribe and their oh so effective philosophy toward the stewardship of the earth.

Hansen is no more of a scientist than Al Gore and the IPCC is no more of a scientific organization than ELF.




I already explained exactly why I posted his defense of himself. What better person to defend himself, than himself? He was the one who researched into the data, and he is the best to explain exactly what happened to the data, exactly what needed to be corrected. The paper that I posted was a chance for him to directly answer the egregious claims against him that you were peddling. Particularly the claim that 1934 was a hotter year... that was such bullshit.

I will direct your attention to this post here, right now, because I really want answers and I'd personally like for you to say you were mistaken in your claims.

I would also like to say that your entire post is an ad hominem attack against the person instead of the science. Way to demonize a scientist and think it amounts to disproving a scientific theory.


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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (03/03/08 04:06 PM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Registered: 05/31/07
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8098408 - 03/03/08 04:43 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

supernovasky said:
Quote:

Cherry-picking is all they have.

If they made a presentation before a scientifically literate audience using their snipped and clipped charts and fingerpaintings they would be laughed out of the auditorium.




Trust me, I know. Being someone who'se had to give a presentation in front of a scientifically literate audience on a scientific finding, it is one of the most stressful things a person can do. You know that each and every person there is smarter than you, or at least, thats how you feel. Each one has their own obscure, but excellent research, waiting like a gunnery turret to strike ANYTHING you say that is wrong down. So it takes months of fact checking leading up to the event to even feel like you MIGHT get out alive.





Come off it with the ad hominems, hows about you talk about the argument?


I don't know why you think your the only one here who's had to *gasp* give a talk/presentation to people in your field.

You just come of as arrogant and presumptious when you talk like this, especially since you're trying to evoke some bullshit respect for your station in life/education without disclosing what exactly that is. 

:thumbdown:


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8098430 - 03/03/08 04:47 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Here are the 3 major model's trends, WITH trendlines:

GISS:



NCDC:



hadCrut:



The spike in 1998 was strong, but because of the years before it and the years after it, it is obviously an anomaly year. The anomaly is EASILY explainable -- el-nino. What is crazy, is that El-nino has weakened since then (this is measurable, folks), but the temperature has slightly increased!


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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (03/03/08 05:36 PM)


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! *DELETED* [Re: johnm214]
    #8098444 - 03/03/08 04:51 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by AnonymousRabbit


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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (03/03/08 05:35 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8098569 - 03/03/08 05:15 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

:owned:


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8098650 - 03/03/08 05:28 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

In fact, I would like to bring up Zapa's statement...

Quote:

Hansen is no more of a scientist than Al Gore and the IPCC is no more of a scientific organization than ELF.




Care to give ANY factual backing for these obvious ad-hominem attacks? A scientist with a Ph.D. and decades of research on the environment is no more a scientist than Al Gore, someone who, though I respect, is certainly no scientist...

and the IPCC, made up of many countries and many scientists, is no more a scientific organization than an eco-terrorist group? Care to give me the scientific publication record of the ELF?


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8098857 - 03/03/08 06:07 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

IPCC is admittedly a political organization by it's definition and makeup. Hansen has himself become a political creature by dint of his roadshow whining that he is being "censored" and further illustrated by the very article you excerpted.

Since you had no problem with Hansen being the author of the piece you cited why did you not identify it as such? After repeated requests by me. His research has become unreliable because of it. He is not a disinterested scientist. He is an advocate who seemingly despises corporations for some reason. His objectivity is shot. Shot, gone, ruined.


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8098915 - 03/03/08 06:21 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe Supernovasky is Hansen!


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8098955 - 03/03/08 06:29 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Also, I find it suspect that you call me out for saying THIS, which can perhaps, in the most liberal definition of the word, be called ad-hominem, but you do not call out these quotes




Because it isn't against forum rules to disrespect references or people that are not directly involved in the debate. Calling Zappa a horrid asshole would be wrong. Calling Zappa's wife insane for putting up with such a horrid asshole would also be wrong. Pointing out that Mr.Hansen is a schmuck on the level of Al Gore is a bit childish, but not wrong (against the forum rules). It is our attempt to keep debate from degrading into name calling while avoiding censorship as much as possible.

Back to the topic...

Edot:

> Maybe Supernovasky is Hansen!

It still wouldn't be wrong without disclosure, which has been requested and denied, thus Hansen is fair game, regardless.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Edited by Seuss (03/03/08 06:32 PM)


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8098996 - 03/03/08 06:36 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


IPCC is admittedly a political organization by it's definition and makeup. Hansen has himself become a political creature by dint of his roadshow whining that he is being "censored" and further illustrated by the very article you excerpted.

Since you had no problem with Hansen being the author of the piece you cited why did you not identify it as such? After repeated requests by me. His research has become unreliable because of it. He is not a disinterested scientist. He is an advocate who seemingly despises corporations for some reason. His objectivity is shot. Shot, gone, ruined.




So you admitted it. You have no facts to show that Hansen is less of a scientist than Gore is. Do you even know Hansen's credentials? Certainly more than myself or anyone else on this forum, and certainly more than Gore. Many of his scientific papers were correct, and he is one of the most referenced scientists in all climatology journals.

As far as the IPCC, being a political organization has no effect on it being equated to an eco-terrorist group. It is a political group that favors the inclusion of good climatology science in government policy. It is a political group because it unifies climatologists from all different countries. It is a SCIENTIFIC group because it has one of the most vigorous peer review processes of any scientific journal.

And no, I had no problem with Hansen being the author of the piece I cited. Who better to defend the man than himself? It was HIS direct answers to the claims that the change was "groudbreaking and shameful." You can go read his own answer, that I posted, rather than being fed news reports from secondary sources. Furthermore, you missed where I DID identify the author as Hansen.

Here is the post you asked me who wrote it: here

For the next 7 posts, I was writing long rebuttals to the science before I answered your trivial question on who the author was...

here is where I say who the author was

Apparently you missed this, because here was your post after I said who the author was:

here

Apparently you KEPT missing that I identified the author, because here is another post after that, 25 minutes after I revealed the author:

here

Your credibility is shot on this issue, man. I can't believe that you'd misrepresent what I said like that, just like you misrepresented the data to say that 1934 was the hottest year on record... for anyone that wants to follow THAT argument, see this post right here, where I called Zappa and Phred out on their peddling of misinformation.


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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (03/03/08 06:43 PM)


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! *DELETED* [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8099016 - 03/03/08 06:40 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by AnonymousRabbit


Edited by AnonymousRabbit (03/03/08 06:49 PM)


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8100081 - 03/03/08 11:30 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

This thread belongs in the hall of fame.


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8100113 - 03/03/08 11:41 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alright, man, what's your problem?

"hows about you talk about the argument"?

I would think after the last 6 pages, this would be the WEAKEST criticism of my posts. That I have not been arguing the science.

As far as me saying I've had to give a talk/presentation, I was merely responding to someone talking about giving scientific presentations and how if these guys tried to bring their data in a conference, they'd be laughed out of the room.

As far as disclosing what my position in life is or who I am, I prefer to keep that private on a DRUG FORUM.

And as far as the arrogance, I am sorry if I am coming across as arrogant. I am just a bit angered at false claims and deliberate misrepresentation of data.

Also, I find it suspect that you call me out for saying THIS, which can perhaps, in the most liberal definition of the word, be called ad-hominem, but you do not call out these quotes by those who have been arguing against global warming:




I wasn't responding to your posts where you put forth evidence, I was responding to the posts where you presume others don't have insight into "science" and couldn't hack it in "science".

And I gues syou could call your rhetoric as akin to an appeal to authority. You cite yourself as someone who deals with science, and presume others aren't- and none of this matters. When you claim that you better understand science and have to give reports, et cet. When you bring your own education and experiences to bear on the argument, it would seem that you should disclose what those are. But of course, it doesn't matter anyways.

You've thrown out a bunch of journals, then claimed they could be located via electronic databases, such as Ebsco's product, and presume that others don't have access or aren't using these resources...


And as for zappa, who cares? I was talking about you, not him. For what its worth, I've gotten used to zappa's rhetoric, and I don't think he believes it to be relevant to the conversation either, when he mentions "kool aid drinkers", et cet. But he's also been here longer and people are used to him, and he also can take the same criticism he dishes out.


But for what its worth, I enjoy your posts, and you shouldn't take my comments personally.


I just don't think its appropriate for you to presume others here don't understand logic/ scientific methods, and to buttress your arguments with your own life experiences without disclosing what those are. And I don't think its cool for you to presume I don't believe in anthropogenic global warming when I've not said that.

Personally, I'm agnositc. I believe the world is getting warmer. I'm not convinced its unusual or signifigantly dependant on human activity. I used to whole-heartedly believe in it, but now I'm not so sure. Perhpas if I did more research I'd have a different opinion, but so far I've not been presented with anything allowing me to conclude that humans are the cause with any certainty. Luckily I'm not called upon to make policy in this area.


(and I still don't think your references are available via the common databases)


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