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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8091459 - 03/01/08 08:17 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Arrhenius? 1896? You just fail.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8091469 - 03/01/08 08:20 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


I'm saying that I'm not giving you an article, I am giving you peer-reviewed research reports. They are not "articles." They pass through a vigerous process of peer review. Each of those does exactly what you asked, it links CO2 to the heating of the earth.




I thought I made it clear I was using article to refer to the written word. I don't know why you think I can't refer to a journal-published submission as an "article"... calm the fuck down, where are you from, and how is the word article an uncommon word to refer to the afroementioned?

And no, zappa didn't ask for a link, he asked for a demonstration of causality.

And finally, this whole page is full of pissing and moaning.


People make statements that are unsupported, someone asks for proof, and then everyone comes out of the woodwork with their bullshit.


And I must say, in my experience, those who trumpet the virtues of "peer-review" are generally naive or ignorant. I here that shit on the news all the time, but funny... the people in the physical sciences never seem to talk about this in my experience... they're interested in the results. Newsflash: some jackasses editing a journal cannot ensure credible results or conclusions, and in fact haven't.



How about we look at the evidence, and not rely upon bullshit like the fact that some journal is well-regarded or is *gasp* peer-reviewed.


Stop the ad hominems and present the evidence.


And about that slew of journals, which you've now equivicated with respect to their relevance, I can't seem to find any of the one's I've looked for, and probably couldn't get that issue anyways due to the age.

and throwing 30 citations without an explanation of the points to be proven by each isn't really helpful anyways. I don't care to do the work to find it to have someone decide another supports their point


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8091473 - 03/01/08 08:22 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

No, it does not.

Willson, Richard C. (1997). "Total Solar Irradiance Trend During Solar Cycles 21 and 22." Science 277: 1963-65.

(Talks about Solar Irradiance, how it varies by little more than .04% between cycles, and about how CO2 is a better explanation).

National Research Council, Board on Global Change (1994). Solar Influences on Global Change. Washington, DC: National Academy Press

(The council determined that solar influences play little to no part).

I've cited The NOAA: ^ National Center for Atmospheric Research (2006-09-14). "Changes in Solar Brightness Too Weak to Explain Global Warming". Press release. Retrieved on 2007-07-13.

"“Our results imply that, over the past century, climate change due to human influences must far outweigh the effects of changes in the Sun's brightness,”


Plus, you can look at correlation from 1970-today. There is no fit.

We have not been taking good measurements of the constants before modern times anyway.


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8091482 - 03/01/08 08:28 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

He asked for the peer-reviwed journal articles, and I provided him with the proper ones.

Quote:

Arrhenius? 1896? You just fail.




So anything discovered before modern times is just false? Do you even know who Arrhenius was? Sure, there were flaws in some of his understandings, but he is arguibly the godfather of what would a century later become a verifiable theory. It's just like telling me I couldn't use Einstein or Darwin to prove relativity or evolution.


Quote:

some jackasses editing a journal cannot ensure credible results or conclusions, and in fact haven't.





And some jackass in his chair at a computer can? Sorry, but the process of peer review does not only include "Editing." It includes independent verification of facts, things that are NOT on your side.

Quote:

I can't seem to find any of the one's I've looked for, and probably couldn't get that issue anyways due to the age.




Then you are not using Academic Search Premier or any other journal search. You can find copies of the major journals at any academic library worth its weight in wood.

Quote:

You're the one making the claim of a causal link. It's up to the claimant to provide evidence of what he claims, not the other way around.

This is Debate 101.




This is not a debate. This is him asking if I could provide peer-reviewed research articles, which is what I did. If he REALLY wanted articles that describe articles, he should have asked. I am not in the business of news and online spin, though, I'm in the business of science. I can personally give a rats ass as to whether or not you "Believe" global warming. The evidence is there, it has been well documented, and the debate is only outside of the realm of those who actually understand and read the literature.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8091494 - 03/01/08 08:33 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

supernovasky said:
So you too believe that science is done by trading web-links and lawn-chair research. That's too bad. Honestly, I'm not going to debate you the way you want to debate. It's not done that way. There are documents, and I showed where to get them. They are accessible by any scientific institution, and by most universities. What you see on google and on the news? That is science that has been filtered for your consumption. Spun.

Read the actual journal articles. Or are you arguing that Tyndall, Arrhenius, and Kaplan did NOT make such a connection in their papers? If that is your argument, then you lose by default, easily proven by simply reading the papers :smile:




who the fuck are you, and why do you feel you have some superiority as an unimpeachable scientist?

who are you to tell anyone how science is done?

Christ, even if you do have some degree it doesn't matter, we're discussing logic here, not credentials.


Your posts overflow with some arrogant presumption that:
1) the others in this conversation don't understand logic
2) the others in this conversation don't understan "how science is done" whatever the fuck that means
3)  anyone who questions you refutes anthropogenic global warming


newsflash, I never said I had a position on the subject, yet you've lumped me in w/ the deniers and those who "don't understand science" (the horror!)

And since you seem to have stumbled upon the basics of the difference between corralation and causality I'm not so sure you're as well-versed as you claim on "how science is done"- which apparently is not with weblinks, for some reason

And FYI, I didn't ask for a weblink, but I did ask for one damn article, hopefully within the last ten or so years so I could look it up.  But since you seem to have backed away from your original presmise, I take it their's no need for this anymore?


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: johnm214]
    #8091536 - 03/01/08 08:48 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


Then you are not using Academic Search Premier or any other journal search. You can find copies of the major journals at any academic library worth its weight in wood.




yes I am, and I don't really care to search through a shitload of databases, which is why I asked for recent results.

for example, if your refering to the ebsco products, nature is only available from 6/05/1997, and isn't available at all in my independant journal database (with thousands of journals)

So why don't you share what specifically you are using to find these articles and perhaps I can bring everyone up to speed since you seem unwilling to, but apparently not unable since you claim they are available through Ebsco, when I don't think most, if any, are.

It'll be a curious test to see if you actually looked before you spoke.

You have read these haven't you?

Quote:


And some jackass in his chair at a computer can? Sorry, but the process of peer review does not only include "Editing." It includes independent verification of facts, things that are NOT on your side.




1. What facts aren't on my side? I haven't made or refuted any factual assertions. Again, you seem to miscontrue scrutiny for unsupported statements as an attack on your position in general, which I've not disagreed with.

2. What facts are independantly verified? What are you talking about? Unless the actual experimental data is replicated, which it almost never is, their isn't any meaningful review of the results.


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8091553 - 03/01/08 08:52 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Well, where's the article? I'm still waiting. You copying a bibliography somebody else compiled about stuff you probably haven't read from 50 year old speculation (Plass and Calender, I've heard of both of them) with what seems to you to be germane titles aint up to it.




God, you can do this on your own. Here is ONE of them.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v347/n6289/pdf/347139a0.pdf

Here's a quote:

Quote:

Data from cores drilled in polar ice sheets show a remarkable correlation between past glacial–interglacial temperature changes and the inferred atmospheric concentration of gases such as carbon dioxide and methane




You'll still have to pay for the full article though.


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8091570 - 03/01/08 08:56 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

And since you seem to have stumbled upon the basics of the difference between corralation and causality I'm not so sure you're as well-versed as you claim on "how science is done"- which apparently is not with weblinks, for some reason




You will never prove causality, but you can evidence it beyond a resonable doubt. I find your doubts unreasonable. Tyndall and Arrhenius (and then later verrified by Plass and others) showed how CO2 absorbes large swaths of the radiation spectrum. Modern day research shows how this CO2, which has been proven to have this absorbtion capacity, correlates with temperature change.


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8091576 - 03/01/08 08:58 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Remember, by the way, science is not about proof, its about evidence. There exists a principle, the uncertainty principle, that when extrapolated, can mean that we can never prove anything. There is always an element of uncertainty in even the most proven theories. However, the evidence points to AGW caused by CO2.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8091597 - 03/01/08 09:04 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

supernovasky said:
Quote:

And since you seem to have stumbled upon the basics of the difference between corralation and causality I'm not so sure you're as well-versed as you claim on "how science is done"- which apparently is not with weblinks, for some reason




You will never prove causality, but you can evidence it beyond a resonable doubt. I find your doubts unreasonable. Tyndall and Arrhenius (and then later verrified by Plass and others) showed how CO2 absorbes large swaths of the radiation spectrum. Modern day research shows how this CO2, which has been proven to have this absorbtion capacity, correlates with temperature change.




and I don't think anyone debates that.

but is this relevant to the warming of the earth, and if so, is it caused by human activity?


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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8091629 - 03/01/08 09:11 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

tired yet?


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: johnm214]
    #8091653 - 03/01/08 09:20 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Although human activity represents a fraction of the total CO2 in the atmosphere, an increase of only a few tens of PPM, according to physicists and climatologists that wrote in those journals (such as Plass) that is unsinked will induce higher absorbtion of IR frequencies. The problem is that human activity represents an unsinked "Addition" to the balance of sinked CO2 vs generated CO2.

Revelle, Roger, and Hans E. Suess (1957). "Carbon Dioxide Exchange between Atmosphere and Ocean and the Question of an Increase of Atmospheric CO2 During the Past Decades." Tellus 9: 18-27.

Here is a REALLY good essay on the topic: http://www.aip.org/history/climate/Revelle.htm

But if you want to skip out on reading it, as it is lengthy, here was the conclusion:

"Another two years passed before Bert Bolin and Erik Eriksson explained the sea water buffering mechanism in clear terms and emphasized what it meant. Unlike Revelle, they figured industrial production would indeed climb exponentially, and they calculated that atmospheric CO2 would probably rise 25% by the end of the century. Now the small community of geophysicists began to grasp that they could not rely upon the oceans to absorb all the emissions of fossil fuels."


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8091662 - 03/01/08 09:24 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Anyhow, remember, this isn't a debate. The debate's already been had in the scientific community. The sources I'm showing you? They are the results.

The environment is seriously being damaged, and it is the new pseudo-intellectual movement that tries to ignore the merits of peer review in favor of out-of-context charts and graphs that encourages such an irresponsible stewardship for the earth we live in.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8091832 - 03/01/08 10:15 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

it is the new pseudo-intellectual movement that tries to ignore the merits of peer review in favor of out-of-context charts and graphs that encourages such an irresponsible stewardship for the earth we live in.




We have the Bush administration to thank for that. They have completely politicized virtually every area of government including traditionally off-limits areas such as FEMA, intelligence gathering and science-related policy to ensure that the party line always prevails at the expense of competence.

They start with the result they want,  then retro-engineer the facts to fit the desired policy.

The republican's corporate paymasters in big business want this issue to be debated and appear in doubt as long as possible so that the game can go on longer. Money will hire the fringe scientists who are willing to say that Climate Change is not real. Just as a wealthy defendant can hire an articulate expert witness to testify in his defense even though the concensus of those experts is against him.

Understand that you cannot convince these people through reason. They are not operating on that level. They are operating in survival mode. They see this issue as a threat to their green paper rectangles or "survival tickets". Try talking a monkey into being reasonable when he is convinced you are taking away his last coconut.

It won't work.

It never does.

Birthing a new scientific paradigm requires getting past the old guard which is totally entrenched and invested in another world view. It almost always takes longer than one generation.

The dinosaurs must die off in order for progress to unfold.

We will march (or maybe swim :lol: ) over their dead bodies to Progress.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: zorbman]
    #8091942 - 03/01/08 10:44 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I love everyone


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8091999 - 03/01/08 10:57 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)



Edited by falcon (03/01/08 11:33 PM)


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: falcon]
    #8092518 - 03/02/08 01:34 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

By the way, Falcon, I'm sorry earlier about not reading your source and possibly being rude in saying no. I've just wasted a lot of time before, 2 hours, reading a report that was not peer reviewed, only to find that they have outright false information, or a chart being read nowhere near how it's supposed to be read and out of context.


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OfflineViveka
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8092591 - 03/02/08 02:48 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Go to a fucking library man. Any big library should have it. Fuck, do an academic search premier for it.

Or are you not in college? Do you even have a degree?




Napoleon:
What d'you do with that thing?
What do you do with that thing that you have?
Wait a minute
Wait a minute
Wait a minute
What do you do
With that thing?
I wanna know

Napoleon: Wait a minute
FZ: Now the next step of this operation
Napoleon: Wait a minute!
FZ: The evil corrupter of youth is going to take him from Step One, which is a mere high-school diploma stuffed with a gym sock, to Step Two, which is a college-degree stuffed with absolutely nothing at all. Smoke that and it'll really get you out there!

Napoleon:
I still don't feel as good as I felt this mornin' . . . yeah yeah . . .

FZ: You'll grow out of it . . .

Jeff:
DUMMY UP!

Napoleon:
I heard it again, somebody said . . .

Jeff: You see this?

Napoleon:
What d'you mean? College!

FZ: College!

Jeff:
That's college-rhythm

Napoleon:
You mean if I smoke that
It's the same as if . . .
As if I was at college?
Roll it over up!
Roll it over up!
Roll it over up!
Gimme a . . .

FZ: No no, the college-degree is stuffed with absolutely nothing at all, you get . . . you get nothing with your college-degree . . .

Napoleon:
Oh . . .
But that's what I want

FZ: . . . I forgot, I'm sorry

Napoleon:
Well,
You get nothin',
But that's what I want

FZ: A true Zen saying: Nothing is what I want . . . The results of a higher education!


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: johnm214]
    #8092596 - 03/02/08 02:54 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> I love everyone

Yep, know how ya feel. I got to that point long ago on this debate. It is pointless to argue science against politics, as politics will always win; thus, global warming is real and Al Gore has a Nobel Prize.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8092703 - 03/02/08 04:53 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Question for everyone here, since there are opposing viewpoints on this:

Has the global temperature been decreasing, as a trend, since 2000, or has it been increasing?

Simple question. I'm not asking for any kind of filibuster about where science actually occurs or what consensus exists or anything like that. Its a simple question that there should be a clear answer to that can be expressed in one's own words. This might not be a truly substantiated debate on a scientific topic, but no one was ever pretending it was, except for the people who have went to great length to commit logical fallacies of appeal to authority in absence of any actual discussion of ideas.

I positively despise people who cannot actually just discuss the topic at hand, such as the discussion is, and waste so much time and energy proposing the nature of others and propagating useless preconceptions. The first few pages of this thread were very intriguing and fun to read for someone who is never going to study climate change professionally, and has to make best use of it all being filtered. This is done by considering all points of view, and it would be much more beneficial for my understanding, as someone who will never purchase a peer-reviewed journal entry on this subject (red panda biology is a different story :wink:), and I'd appreciate it if those who are more blessed with such an understanding would stop being so condescending and propagating bullshit because they feel superior and actually approach the debate, of ideas, at the level at which it exists.

Now, can anyone express, in their own words, possibly supplemented with graphs or hard data (I am not interested in being sent off into a sea of links), what the global mean temperature has been doing since 1998/2000 until now?

If one feels that discussion like this with people who aren't fully vested in the scientific standards that come with any true debate on the matter is pointless or it doesn't matter because scientific consensus has already been established and ye Shroomerities have no place in trying to discuss this in their forum, then shut the fuck up and fuck off. These are the terms of debate as I am proposing. Don't reply to me if you do not accept those terms.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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