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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Lots of ice cubes now [Re: Yossarian22]
    #8087233 - 02/29/08 05:55 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Yossarian22 said:
When did I say it wasn't the CO2? It's also caused by other greenhouse gases, too, but CO2 certainly plays a large part.




I didn't say you did, but CO2 obviously has no real effect beyond a certain point. I'll reference Phred's post which I recently quoted. In researching the claim that, in 1940-1970, the average mean temperature cooled as CO2 levels continued to increase, I found that, in addition to sulphate aerosols, due to volcanic activity, as well as industrial activity to some extent, surprise surprise, there was a lack of sunspots. The correlation between sunspots and the Sun's output is pretty clear, and, around this time, there was an absence of them, with subsequent decrease in solar energy reaching the earth. Thus, cooling. I also have speculation that the Sun plays an integral role in volcanic activity, thus consolidating its role in cooling, but clearly there is no substansial understanding, at least that I've found yet, illuminating what exactly is responsible for the pressures that bring a volcano to erupt (Popular Mechanics: As for volcanoes, the experts simply don't know. As far as geologists have been able to determine, increased activity like that experienced in the latter part of the 20th century is something that happens with no apparent rhyme or reason.). I hold this speculation due to the fact that the Sun is pretty much responsible for all of the Earth's phenomenon.

Quote:


What do you mean "underestimated"? The point is that it's pure craziness to think that modern science is unable to take into account such an elementary idea. The sun hypothesis has been studied and debunked.




It isn't accounting for the clear role the Sun has in climate change, especially since we should never forget that it is the heater for this planet, and the only reason there is a climate in the first place. :smirk:

Some sun hypotheses may have been debunked, but not what I'm proposing, based upon various sets of information, which I believe there is an opportunity later to elaborate upon. :wink:

Quote:


Quote:

My point is that the Sun is responsible for it all and any other factor plays no real role in climate change.




And my point is you're entirely wrong. Of course the sun's important, but there haven't been any changes that could explain the unprecedented rise in global temperatures. Here's one link debunking that hypothesis.




Its important to stress the context of my statement, which is made from a perspective that isn't so set within the course of years or decades, or any preconception of the global warming debate. Clearly other factors, such as our own emissions and the emissions of volcanoes, play an observable role in climate change. My point is that the Sun is the Alpha and the Omega of the climate, and its subsequent change. I'm stating that, ultimately, all that matters is the Sun regarding this, and I'm even prepared to place on the table that the course of human civilization itself has been played out due to the Sun's output, inevitably bringing humans to the point that they would begin emitting greenhouse gases, thus demonstrating the role the Sun has in climate change. :naughty:  I've been waiting to make a post about the Sun's role in human civilization anyways. :hehehe:

Do you want my analysis? Its seemed pretty conclusive that the Sun (namely, the reduction/absence of sunspots), coupled with volcanic activity, is pretty clearly responsible for global cooling. Why then, as the article you cited points to, did the temperature increase from 1980 to 2000, while the amount of sunspots decreased? Here's a graph that shows this:







It seems pretty conclusive that sunspot/volcanic activity data corresponds fairly well with the global temperature, up until the last section of the last century, and I believe that it also corresponds fairly well for the last four centuries and possibly beyond, including the Maunder Minimum, and this seems to be generally accepted.

Before I propose my answer to the 1980-2000 matter, let's look at another graph which came into play much earlier in this thread:







The number of sunspots has been decreasing, and it peaked in 1998. It is now on a downslope until 2010. Is it really any wonder why the average global mean temperature has started dropping since 1998? Ahh, but why didn't it drop as the sunspots started decreasing from 1980 to about 1998? Greenhouse gases. I'm not denying the role humans have played in this. What has happened is that they have insulated the Earth so that the temperature has no longer corresponded with the amount of sunspots, as it has historically. Of course, as the actual heat source for the Earth, the Sun, is not giving us as much energy, that temperature will eventually begin to drop in accordance with it - insulation doesn't hold heat in forever.

If anything, I think it remains to be seen that human beings are helped by this, as periods of cooling produce much more hardship for humanity than periods of warmth do.

Quote:


I presented no logical fallacy- and don't say "appeal to authority"(it's only a fallacy when it's an appeal to false authority).




This isn't true. Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. The ideas themselves are to support themselves. Authority might assist in developing some knowledge, but its always a fallacy because the ideas are not valid simply due to the credibility of the source.

Quote:


Science is a self-correcting process; certainly, it makes mistakes and it's not perfect, but every scientific idea that becomes a matter of consensus has been rigorously tested, debated, and exposed to criticism worldwide.




Indubiantly.

Quote:


There are hundreds of thousands of people who've studied climatology for decades and understand the science more intimately than any of us here could possibly hope to. While studies and technological advances have altered the details of our understanding of climate change, it hasn't altered the core theory; in fact, the library of climatological research has confirmed the existence of global warming many times over.




Great. I've never denied the fact that the temperature of this planet has, at times, gotten warmer, nor that humans have some role in that process.

Quote:


To say "nope, the scientific community is wrong" and to present such scant and superficial evidence is not just arrogant, but stupid. Do you really think none of those scientists asked themselves "maybe we should look at the sun"?




Nope, I don't think that any of these scientists have not asked themselves that. :shrug:

Quote:


The truth is, there is no controversy over anthropogenic climate change in the scientific community.




Great. I don't see how this contradicts anything I have to say on the matter.

Quote:


And you've bought it hook, line and sinker. Congratulations, you're spouting Exxon's disinformation. You've been used.




It'd be better if you were being facetious, because I see no way in which I'm being used by anyone in forming my own opinions on the matter. I don't know how many people share my views on the matter, but most of my viewpoint is based on the solid, underestimated role that the Sun has in every aspect of this planet. Humans emitting greenhouse gases might play some role but not in the context in which I was referring to earlier, which is the sense that the Sun is responsible for all warming and cooling, since it is the source of energy, life, and all that jazz.... :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Lots of ice cubes now *DELETED* [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8087365 - 02/29/08 06:37 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by AnonymousRabbit


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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (02/29/08 06:39 PM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Lots of ice cubes now [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8087411 - 02/29/08 06:52 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I think I just demonstrated a reasonable explanation for the 1980-1998 matter, in response to the very article that you just posted. The greenhouse gases, much more prevalent now than any, well, ever, as far as our recorded history goes, acted as a buffer to bring the increase in temperature to not correspond with the decrease in solar output. The fact that the global temperature is now in a clear decreasing trend as the amount of sunspots has peaked (in 1998) and is now decreasing until 2010 should speak for this, concluding that the great increase in greenhouse gases in the last few decades insulates the heat and has reached its limit in doing so and begins to decrease as the sun has less output.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Lots of ice cubes now *DELETED* [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8087416 - 02/29/08 06:54 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by AnonymousRabbit


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Lots of ice cubes now *DELETED* [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8087477 - 02/29/08 07:11 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by AnonymousRabbit


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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (02/29/08 07:16 PM)


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Offlinebodynotdead
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Re: Lots of ice cubes now [Re: boomer q]
    #8087615 - 02/29/08 07:43 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

boomer q said:
incidentally, how is your name luvdemshrooms, and you deny global warming? haven't you learned anything about how to be one with nature from shrooms? you should take a large dose and go watch a glacier fall into the sea




Watching a glacier fall into the sea on shrooms would be beautiful.

how ever the thought of global warming
(stronger hurricanes)
(impending doom)
(tens of billions of people dead)
On shrooms = fear, like looking in to the eyes of the devil.
That is what global warming is all about fear.
NO one should take a large dose and have these thoughts. it would = suicide


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"absolute power corrupts absolutely".
Lord Acton,


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Offlinebodynotdead
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Re: Lots of ice cubes now [Re: bodynotdead]
    #8087644 - 02/29/08 07:48 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Earth suffered the Little Ice Age that lasted about five centuries and ended in 1850. Crops failed through killer frosts and drought. Famine, plague and war were widespread. Harbours froze, so did rivers, and trade ceased.

It's way too early to claim the same is about to happen again, but then it's way too early for the hysteria of the global warmers, too.


--------------------
"absolute power corrupts absolutely".
Lord Acton,


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #8088191 - 02/29/08 10:30 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Check out the five links in the Blog entry for February 28th, they are PDF's, http://icecap.us/index.php/go/joes-blog


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! *DELETED* [Re: falcon]
    #8088224 - 02/29/08 10:40 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by AnonymousRabbit


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8089347 - 03/01/08 11:03 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Fair enough, BTW, the last two PDF's, though tangentially related, I don't think are relevant to the discussion.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: falcon]
    #8089408 - 03/01/08 11:23 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Will one of you please provide me with a peer reviewed scientific report that establishes a causal link leading from CO2 increases to increased global temperature? Thank you in advance.


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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8090413 - 03/01/08 04:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Well you know as well as everyone that you really can't prove things like that from retrospective analysis


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! *DELETED* [Re: johnm214]
    #8090635 - 03/01/08 04:58 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by AnonymousRabbit


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8090639 - 03/01/08 04:58 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

By the way, EACH of those studies I mentioned were revolutionary in their time, and each has a large importance on the research and discoveries in climatology we have made to this day.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8090710 - 03/01/08 05:18 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

no one's gonna read all that crap


find one citation that shows a causual link and offer it as proof.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: johnm214]
    #8090892 - 03/01/08 06:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

lol you are starring at 30 citations right in the face and you have the audacity to ask him to give you another citation to prove what all those citations prove.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
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"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: SlashOZ]
    #8090966 - 03/01/08 06:14 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

no, I said I'm not going to read what might be around 300 pages of text, if I could even get journal articles form the 19th century

I'm saying zappa asked for an article that showed causality, and he was responded to w/ a slew of articles that probably don't. Find one and indicate it so that its contents can be analyzed.

And who are you to say that those 30 citations prove anything? I'd be shocked if you read any of them, and from their titles it seems obvious that no "proof," as you say, lies within their results.

Yes, I have the audacity to request the question be answered directly. And it seems you have the audacity to blindly accept what someone else claims lies within some jounal you've probably never read.

Get back to me when you've read that list and can defend their results. Until then, don't approach me with your presumptions.


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! *DELETED* [Re: johnm214]
    #8091270 - 03/01/08 07:27 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by AnonymousRabbit


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8091286 - 03/01/08 07:31 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I picked one at random.
Plass, G.N. (1956). "Carbon Dioxide and the Climate." American Scientist 44: 302-16.
Not only was it not a link it didn't produce the article itself in a google search. Further, it is from some 1956 article that I doubt says what you say it does. Did you yourself read it or are you just pulling a bunch of articles out of some other alarmist's ass?

I'll try to see a few others.


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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Re: Global warming is killing us all! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8091296 - 03/01/08 07:36 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

LOL! So now you are calling me out and saying it doesnt exist? What bullshit.

You really do not read the basic climatology literature, huh. Its like trying to learn about atomic theory by reading, say, intelligent design articles. It doesnt work that way! Plass' "Carbon Dioxide and the Climate." is a VERY well established journal report that links CO2 and increasing temperatures. It was one of the first to show how the physics behind CO2 absorbtion connected to a warming trend observed by world weather stations.

Go to a fucking library man. Any big library should have it. Fuck, do an academic search premier for it.

Or are you not in college? Do you even have a degree?


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