|
 Middleman
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
|
 Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes?  [Re: Silversoul]
#7713911 - 12/04/07 03:12 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
My point is that the lives of many avatars seem to echo the story of the Sun's passage through the Zodiac.
This doesn't mean they didn't exist, it simply means that there may be more to the Sun and stars than meets the eye.
Yes King Tut was real, but his official story isn't, imo.
|
 jonathanseagull
Cool!
Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 993
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
|
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Middleman]
#7714520 - 12/04/07 09:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
How is Taoism related to Astronomy?
--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
|
Middleman
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
|
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: jonathanseagull]
#7714543 - 12/04/07 09:51 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Certain features of Taoist alchemy and talismanic symbolism have also penetrated the Tai Chi forms. As part of their contemplation of nature the Taoists observed the heavens and were keen students of astronomy and astrology. Movements of the Tai Chi Form such as:
* Step Up to Seven Stars
* Embrace the Moon
* Biggest Star in the Great Dipper
* Encase the Moon in Three Rings
* The Smallest Star in the Big Dipper
* Meteor Runs After Moon
* Heavenly Steed Soars Across the Sky
Here's some more info:
Quote:
Cosmology: Daoism has made a tremendous contribution to the development of ancient astronomy and has deepened man's understanding and mastery of the outside world. Daoism holds that the universe is created from emptiness. For example, The Book of the Supreme Venerable Sovereign's Opening of the Heavens 1 says that the evolutionary process of the universe is made up of many phases, such as "great origin", "chaotic origin", "supreme beginning", "supreme start", "supreme simplicity", "chaos", "nine palaces", and "original sovereign" (see p. 618, Vol. 34, The Daoist Canon 2). Although such a theory is still within the religious intellectual system, it initiates man's understanding of the universe and gestates the sprout of science of the universe. Daoists came to know gradually that the universe has gone through an evolutionary process of growing from small to large. Ge Hong adopts the view that "Pangu created the world" mentioned in Three-Five Calendar 3 by Xu Zheng of The Three Kingdoms, holding that "before the formation of heaven, earth, the sun and the moon, the universe was in the shape of an egg; chaotic, black and yellow," and that the heaven and earth were not created until Perfect Man Pangu roamed in the universe and created the sun and the moon (see Records of Immortals of the Original Beginning and the Highest Perfection 4, p. 23, vol. 3, in The Daoist Canon). Daoist Theories of the universe developed continuously afterwards. Daoism explains the structure of the universe with the theory of integral heaven, holding that heaven is a ball-shaped shell wrapping the earth, which floats in the ball of heaven in the shape of a board, while the sun, the moon, and stars are attached to the ball of heaven, and that the buoyant force of the "tie of the vital breath" enables heaven and earth not to fall. The famous Daoist Hao Datong of the Complete Perfection Tradition 5 was an expert at calendrics and arithmetic, while Zhao Youqin conducted large-scale research in astronomical physics. The latter studied solar and lunar eclipses and did optical experiments. Some of his experiments and discoveries recorded in his New Book on the Changing Astronomical Phenomena 6 were revolutionary in the history of world astronomy.
Astrology: Daoism holds that constellations in heaven are the abodes of spirits. Also due to the Daoist belief in the theory of correspondence between heaven and man, ancient Daoists devoted a great deal of energy to observing the stars and drawing star charts. The 28 constellations in heaven that signify energy nodes and orientations have caught people's attention ever since the emergence of Daoism. Daoism holds that worship of the Big Dipper could eliminate disasters and get rid of diseases, prolong the life span and achieve longevity. Therefore, in The Daoist Canon, there are a number of Daoist scriptures about prayer to the Big Dipper or concerning the Dipper constellation, and numerous scriptures are illustrated with the star chart of the Big Dipper. Many of the ancient Chinese astronomers and astrologists were Daoists or persons influenced by Daoism, such as Li Chunfeng, Yuan Tiangang, and so on.
Calendar: Based on the observation and research of the laws of heaven, earth, and the universe, Daoism establishes "calendar of 24 energy nodes" which bears important influence on subsequent Chinese calendars (For details, see p. 438, vol. 28, The Daoist Canon). In The Daoist Canon, there is also a Daoist calendar named "calendar of 28 constellations", a "solar calendar" which is different from that of the government. It prescribes that one year has 12 months and each month has 30 days, and divided a year in half, the first half starting with the Kui constellation and the second with the Jiao constellation. This calendar has major influence on the "calendar of 12 vital breaths" formulated by Shen Kuo.
Timers: The characteristics of Daoist cultivation methods determine that Daoists need exact timing when cultivating inner and outer alchemy. As a result, many Daoists delve into timing techniques so that they make much valuable contribution in this field. One of the early Daoist devotees' major suggestions accepted during the reign of Emperor Aidi of the Han dynasty is that the 100 degree-gradation, which is the gradation standard of the timing instrument "louke", is changed into 120 degree-graduation (see "Biography of Li Xun" in History of the Han). The Daoist Li Lan of the Northern Wei dynasty invented "chenglou" (steelyard timer). After being improved in the Song dynasty, it had been used by the government till the Northern Song dynasty. Tao Hongjing, a famous Daoist of the Southern Dynasties, once designed "natural louke". His reason was, "flowing water can be made into natural louke. Then the twelve hours circulate, and people do not have to wait and watch." (p. 735, vol. 22, The Daoist Canon.) Daoists of the Complete Perfection Tradition even invented some handy timing instruments that are "ingenious, delicate, and simple"(see p.137, vol. 32. The Daoist Canon).
|
adrian7812
Stranger
Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
|
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: ZShroom]
#7747805 - 12/12/07 12:54 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Even if there are mistakes in it. I still find it really interesting. Even if the whole thing was a lie, I would find it interesting.
--------------------
Nothing I say is true. It is entirely fictional. In fact, my life is entirely fictional. I do not exist.
Edited by adrian7812 (12/12/07 12:55 AM)
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Middleman]
#7747811 - 12/12/07 12:59 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Middleman said:
Yes King Tut was real, but his official story isn't, imo.
What official story? You mean how he was the son of Akhenaten who died(might have been murder) at a young age? I think that's a matter of historical and archaeological record.
--------------------
|
Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
|
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
#7748746 - 12/12/07 11:03 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Malevolent ETs are BEHIND ALLL OF THIS!!!!!!!!!!!
--------------------
Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
|
wyldeman007
Student
Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 309
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Last seen: 11 months, 13 days
|
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7775590 - 12/18/07 09:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Amazing!! No one has yet "poked holes"! All anyone here manages to do is correct the inaccuracies of a theologically based theory. The facts don't all have to add up to be primarily conclusive in parts 1 through 3. Zeitgeist remains substantial and is impervious to religious arguments. Being accurate or not is beside the point Zeitgeist relays to us, if your going to discredit this film look elsewhere than the religious aspect. You might be poking holes in Peter Joseph's understanding of religion but definitely not the film itself.
--------------------
"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: wyldeman007]
#7775644 - 12/18/07 09:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
wyldeman007 said:
Amazing!! No one has yet "poked holes"!
Amazing!! You missed my rather long, detailed post!
Quote:
All anyone here manages to do is correct the inaccuracies of a theologically based theory.
And what exactly is your idea of "poking holes"?
Quote:
The facts don't all have to add up to be primarily conclusive in parts 1 through 3.
Huh? How exactly is something conclusive if the facts don't add up?
Quote:
Zeitgeist remains substantial and is impervious to religious arguments.
Please explain.
Quote:
Being accurate or not is beside the point Zeitgeist relays to us
How does this make any sense? It is supposed to be a documentary, no? How exactly is the accuracy of the facts presented in a documentary beside the point?
Quote:
if your going to discredit this film look elsewhere than the religious aspect.
I only had time and patience to address the religious aspect. The 9/11 conspiracy theory has been debated to death ad nauseam in the Political forum, and the federal reserve is not my area of expertise. I addressed the religious aspect because it was the most relevant to this forum, and is the context in which this film is most frequently cited. It was also the easiest for me to discredit, as it doesn't involve a government conspiracy, and includes historical claims which are easily refuted with a quick search on wikipedia.
Quote:
You might be poking holes in Peter Joseph's understanding of religion but definitely not the film itself.
I was poking holes in the first third of the film. I don't care as much about the other two parts because they've been addressed elsewhere.
--------------------
|
wyldeman007
Student
Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 309
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Last seen: 11 months, 13 days
|
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
#7775818 - 12/18/07 10:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
My points are as follows;
1. I read all 2 pages trust me..
2. Poking holes in the whole is what I mean.
3. What I mean by conclusive in this case, is you don't need Zeitgeist to prove that religion is irrelevant (people will believe in what ever religion they want) Zeitgeist isn't dependent on that fact...
4. I think 3 answers 4, but for your amusement: suggesting that religion has any argumentative power over Zeitgeist has no standing as ammunition. Zeitgeist deals with facts not opinions.
5. Accuracy of religious stories doesn't change the fact that there is no god. Of course a documentary needs to be accurate, only with the facts, religious interpretations are opinions and cannot be proven right or wrong.
6. Well said, but I think it's inappropriate to discuss this film in any religious way, its just an oxymoron if you ask me.
7. Fair enough, and very well analyzed; props.
--------------------
"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: wyldeman007]
#7775857 - 12/18/07 10:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Poking holes in the whole is what I mean.
You don't really get the concept of "poking holes," do you?
Quote:
What I mean by conclusive in this case, is you don't need Zeitgeist to prove that religion is irrelevant (people will believe in what ever religion they want) Zeitgeist isn't dependent on that fact...
*sigh* You're not even making grammatical sense, let alone logical sense. Look, it's very simple: Zeitgeist, in the first part of the film, sets out to prove the hypothesis that all religion is reducible to astrotheology. I debunk their points one-by-one, and then offer a conclusion on why this theory does not make sense.
Quote:
suggesting that religion has any argumentative power over Zeitgeist has no standing as ammunition.
Where have I presented religion as having having argumentative power over Zeitgeist? I am using FACTS to argue against Zeitgeist, as well as explaining why the few facts that they get right don't really prove their point.
Quote:
Zeitgeist deals with facts not opinions.
Facts which I debunked as misinformation(I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they weren't just lying).
Quote:
Accuracy of religious stories doesn't change the fact that there is no god.
That is not a fact. It is speculation, and it is not even the point that Zeitgeist tries to make.
Quote:
Of course a documentary needs to be accurate, only with the facts, religious interpretations are opinions and cannot be proven right or wrong.
Their "facts" are inaccurate. I was "poking holes" by pointing out those inaccuracies as well as the flaw in their central argument.
--------------------
|
wyldeman007
Student
Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 309
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Last seen: 11 months, 13 days
|
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? *DELETED* [Re: Silversoul]
#7775917 - 12/18/07 11:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Post deleted by wyldeman007Reason for deletion: Better one added
--------------------
"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
|
wyldeman007
Student
Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 309
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Last seen: 11 months, 13 days
|
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: wyldeman007]
#7775935 - 12/18/07 11:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Is religion dangerous? Has religion been the bane of mankind in the past and has religion been used as terror tactics over communities?
I believe this to be the point of parts 1 2 3 of Zeitgeist, not the origins and histories of religion.
Sorry if I wasn't clear.
--------------------
"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: wyldeman007]
#7775992 - 12/18/07 11:28 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
By poking holes in the individual points they make, I show how the case they build is weak. But it let me break it down for you a little more simply. I'm not denying that the sun and planets didn't play a role in religion. The Sun is in fact rather common in religious symbolism. But if it was the sun they were worshiping, then why not leave it at that? Why create all these gods out of the sun and the stars? I'll tell you why: Because it's not the sun that they're worshiping. It's something much deeper which the sun merely represents to them. When dealing with divine concepts which transcend rational thought, concepts can only be expressed through archetypes, symbolism, and mythology. The sun itself is not the object of worship but a visible symbol of that which is revered. The pantheon of gods described a multitude of different archetypes which all dwelt within the human consciousness. So did the archetypes associated with the sun and planets. The source of religion is the collective unconscious, not the objects it assigns significance to.
--------------------
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: wyldeman007]
#7776001 - 12/18/07 11:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
wyldeman007 said:
Is religion dangerous? Has religion been the bane of mankind in the past and has religion been used as terror tactics over communities?
I believe this to be the point of parts 1 2 3 of Zeitgeist, not the origins and histories of religion.
If this was their intention, there was no need for this flawed astrotheological case they make. If they wanted to show that religion was dangerous, they could have just recycled the arguments of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens(though I still have some issues with their ideas as well).
--------------------
|
wyldeman007
Student
Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 309
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Last seen: 11 months, 13 days
|
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
#7776022 - 12/18/07 11:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
So let's agree to disagree and allow both our opinions to prevail. While the precedence of your argument revolves closely around religion and clearly you put much thought into it as you type, I can agree with a few of your positions. I can gather you have little respect for me and view me as 'below' your intelligence. Not that your opinion matters to me, I would just like to point out you haven't in any way 'outsmarted me'. You'll always have something to say and you will say it in such a way as to rouse a response. Thank you for this healthy conversation, maybe you don't believe me, but we both put a few items out there at least.
--------------------
"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: wyldeman007]
#7776062 - 12/18/07 11:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I can gather you have little respect for me and view me as 'below' your intelligence.
What gives you that idea? I merely have trouble comprehending the points you are trying to make. If you made your points a bit clearer, we could have more open dialogue.
--------------------
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte 
Last seen: 3 months, 9 days
|
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
#7776595 - 12/19/07 06:56 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
All those movies are bullshit, especially where they pick any far distant hypothesis to use as the basis of their jeremiad. Religion and government are simply the haouse of cards which being vapid and lacking truth, are therefore leading us all to death in a handcart.
As for taoism and astrology, it is Chinese system and taoists use a double chart - white and black, one is for life, one is for death. As in, now you're here, later you'll be there. So 12 times 2 equals 24 signs in taoism astrology. It is mainly used for health diagnosis. They use it in small clans in Nepal. Or so the lama told me.
--------------------
...or something
|
lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger
Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
|
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: ZShroom]
#7776839 - 12/19/07 09:11 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ZShroom said:
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
I thought this movie was informatitive and easy to understand. I mean I know there are alot of people out there that still dont wanna believe in "conspiracy" theorys, but i mean after watching this you really dont have a choice. And also it is not like this movie is just a bunch of ideas and thoughts...no it is a movie with ideas with facts to back them up, so like i said....go ahead and try. I was half tempted to put this in the P&S forum but i know they would flip out and write a bunch of crazy things saying how the movie is not good. Whatever just watch and respond.... 
the movie is very misleading
for example, in the third part there is a quote by jfk about secret societies and the implication is that he is talking about international banking conspiricy
however if you read the whole speach it is obvious that he is talking about communism
the makers of zeitgeist pick and choose which info they will show you and how much of it to use so that it supports their theories
part 1 deals with what silversoul was talking about... there are many false statements and very poor sources (such as masseys books on heiroglyphs from the 1800s)
part 2 deals with 9/11 conspiracy... need i say more? i own a copy of pop mechanics book on the subject and i trust the editors of pop mechanics and understand their explanations
part 3 had some interesting info, but was full of misleading information such as that jfk quote i was talking about
so overall i think it is interesting but i don't trust anything it says
|
learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
|
even if it's not 100% true its pretty fucking interesting
--------------------
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: learningtofly]
#7788769 - 12/22/07 12:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
learningtofly said:
even if it's not 100% true its pretty fucking interesting
Sounds like a review of a Michael Moore film.
--------------------
|
|
Threaded
Previous
Index
Next
Buy Bali Kratom Powder 
All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck 
Kratom Capsules for Sale 
Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order
Edit 
Reply 
1 2 3 4 ... 12 13 all )
Shroomism
zorbman
Knifey Mcstab
Adamist
Moonshoe