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InvisibleEllisDSox
King Hella!

Registered: 01/22/07
Posts: 25,730
Re: Atheism and Shroom-taking [Re: Atheist]
    #7777350 - 12/19/07 11:38 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

you'r talkin to me about god when my name says i do not believe in god

iv read countless threads where people say DMT or shrooms or LSD is spiritual and so on....

uhhhhh they are fucking DRUGS and it is all in your BRAINS,
those spirits you see when you hit the DMT pipe or eat shrooms ARE ALL IN YOUR HEAD




You're a walking sack of crap, as am I, and all humans. The Earth is just a stupid sphere flying through a black, desolate hell hole with stupid giant lights shining in it. Love is a chemical imbalance in your brain. Happiness is just serotonin and dopamine. Wellbeing is just a result of your natural drives being fulfilled. Your brain is just a worthless piece of trash with electronic signals going through it.

You see what I'm doing here? I'm describing things from a very negative, cynical point of view. Does this change the significance of any of these things? No.

All experience is, to an incredibly large degree, internal. Your comments are just seeing things from a cynical point of view, and don't really mean much. It's just a matter of words. I don't mean this to sound harsh towards you- I'm sure you're a mighty swell guy, but what you just said is basically just sophistry. When two people make love, you could just say they are two animals screwing- nothing in the act or the meaning they find in it will have changed.

You are entirely right that these things are in your head, but then again, you don't experience an objective universe- all of what you experience is in your head- it's basically your mind's conception of an objective universe.

I personally agree with what you're saying, and think that spiritual states are realms of consciousness, and that deities are largely beings within the human mind. Does this make them any less significant? Do you disregard your limbs because they're a part of you?

If anything, these things are infinitely more important when you realise that spiritual occurances are constantly happening within your consciousness. A deity or entity has a significance to you if it's a part of you- if it was a totally external being going about its own business, why would you care at all? God, in my view, is simply a state of totally pure awareness. You reach this state by advancing through your own consciousness, not by begging an external being to show himself to you. You have to open your eyes to see the light.

Now, I don't want to seem like I'm pushing views on you here. If you have no spiritual beliefs at all, then I really think you probably shouldn't- I don't have too much faith in anything I haven't personally experienced, and neither should you.

However, your argument is really quite silly. The same could be said of anything. Meditation isn't spiritual it's just AIR going into your NOSE! Love isn't meaningful, it's just FEELINGS in your BRAIN! The experience is what's important, not how it's induced. There are these wonderful chemicals that can, even from a totally cynical and neurological point of view, open our minds (or brains, if you want to go there).

To disregard things simply because they are in your own head is really quite bizarre. Your love for others is in your head. Even Jesus spoke of the Kingdom of God being within yourself. Spiritual states of consciousness and what we can bring back from them into this world don't lose one tiny piece of their significance simply because they are not the result of an external entity. I always feel, very distinctly, during a trip, that aspects of my consciousness are being painted all over my external universe, and I can see what's happening inside me and outside me.

There is a type of mystical experience, which many people have reported, with or without psychedelics, in which a golden/white light made of pure positive energy totally permeates one's reality. Does the fact that this comes from inside us make it more or less significant? More, in my opinion.

It's strange how things have changed. Once upon a time a religious majority persecuted atheists mercilessly. I have met maybe one or two religious people who were intolerant of atheists in my life. I know dozens upon dozens of atheists who utterly loath people with any kind of spiritual belief. If you don't see things in a spiritual way, then that's totally your choice and I respect that 100%, but you're acting as if people are being stupid when they interpret internal experiences as somehow significant.


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Disclaimer: If you have any kind of heart condition, my posts are not for you. You could literally die from reading the first couple of words in any one of them. Scroll down the page, live your life and prosper, but don't read my posts because your heart will probably explode. I am not joking.


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OfflineChesterCopperpot
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Registered: 01/04/07
Posts: 30
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: Atheism and Shroom-taking [Re: MotorCityMadman]
    #7777368 - 12/19/07 11:46 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

When I first started using LSD and shrooms they made me a more spiritual person. But over time they lost that sort of "this is going to change the world!" energy and instead took me to deeper and deeper levels of self reflection. Today I am definatly an atheist and I would say that shrooms assisted me in coming to that mindset. I describe tripping as thinking and feeling absolutly HUMAN, almost TOO human. Remembering that I am a mortal being can be both revealing and terrifying. I do believe there are very powerful and misunderstood forces in this universe but I accept that I will never understand them.


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This goes out to The Bearded Men of Space Station 11.


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Offlinesymbiotic
insighted
Male

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 105
Loc: ok,nm,co,ca,or
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Atheism and Shroom-taking [Re: ChesterCopperpot]
    #7777405 - 12/19/07 11:58 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

'Maybe if you weren't so scared of death, you'd be more ready to live.'-From a "dead" leaf.


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The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.


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Offlinesymbiotic
insighted
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Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 105
Loc: ok,nm,co,ca,or
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Atheism and Shroom-taking [Re: symbiotic]
    #7777608 - 12/19/07 01:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

If god is an invisible judging man in the clouds that is more powerful than any other being and can send you to hell, I don't believe in such a thing. Do I believe in a 'motivating force' behind all of life, yes.
'...the substance of your material world is basically electrical particles agitated at high speed within ‘space’, your science is unable to tell you ‘why’ such ‘energy particles’ take on the density and form of ‘matter’ except to speak of forces of fusion which happen to create the elements. Science cannot tell you what is the ‘Motivating Force’ which draws particles into the form of elements. Neither can science tell you from whence such energy particles originally came except to say that they were released during the time of the Big Bang which they believe gave the first impetus to creation. Why a sudden ‘Big Bang’ - of what? What was the Motivating Factor behind it?
Science speaks about electromagnetism but cannot say from whence come such energies which appear and disappear. Where do they go? Why do they come back? From the human perspective, there appears to be no intelligible activity within or behind its work. Science says that electromagnetism ‘just is’ - a simple fact of existence - yet it produces highly purposeful and intelligent work in the form of millions of billions of substances of which your universe is made. How does this happen? There is nothing that electromagnetism has brought into visible being which the human mind can deem to be lacking purpose or meaning. Science ignores this most basic and vital level of creation. Without an answer to this question, as to why everything which has been brought into visible manifestation by the activity of the twin energies of electromagnetism is invariably purposeful, successful and rational, - nothing of any value in the search for your origins will be discovered. Until science can probe and discover the ‘Reality’ of the ‘space’ in which electrical particles of ‘visible being’ are supported, science will forever remain behind locked doors of materialism. It will be barred to eternal Truth and universal wisdom and imprisoned within the bondage of reason alone - reason which is solely the product of the finite activity of brain cells. It is to the true nature of the SPACE I intend to introduce you too. To discover your true SOURCE of BEING, I ask you to take stock of the unimaginable and indescribable complexity and diversity of purposeful work plainly evident in penguins and pigs. Can the human mind replicate any of the most basic of activities within - say - the digestive system, which swiftly summons up the requisite enzymes and hormones necessary for digestion. How dare the finite mind, which is incapable of perceiving clearly the true creative process governed by instinctual knowledge, presume to state unequivocally, - defying contradicition, - that it understands the true origins of creation and the forces out of which creation took form?
What arrogance! These men can only think according to what their eyes tell them.
I view the present scientific ignorance with loving compassion, a degree of amusement, and a great all consuming passion to puncture their pride. For, until someone can penetrate their self- satisfaction and position of infallibility, a true mating of Eternal Verities and human scientific knowledge can never take place. But it must take place, otherwise human spiritual evolution will remain at a standstill. The scientific mind is too full of ‘finitely’ devised book lore, accepted formulas and equations, and the need for their fellows’ approval, to permit mystical penetration by Higher Intelligences.
On my behalf, I ask readers of these Letters, to form an association to challenge Science and ask ‘at what point in the evolution of the ‘material’ world’ is CONSCIOUSNESS first discernible? I repeat and mean what I say: Ask the scientist at what point in the evolution of the world is ‘consciousness’ first discernible. In the living cell? If in the living cell, ask whether it was discernible in the living molecules which combined to make a cell and encase itself in such an intelligently designed membrane, permitting the intake of selected food and excretion of toxic waste? How does it recognise toxic waste? And if it should be conceded that consciousness might be present in living molecules, should you not ask whether the chemical properties which became a living molecule might not themselves have possessed ‘consciousness’ which eventually impelled and propelled them into the life-giving combination to make a molecule? And having gone back thus far into the origins of existence, - the chemical properties - you must still question why ‘consciousness’ should only become a viable presence within the chemicals - why not within the elements in which individuality first took shape, and if in the elements why should it be denied that ‘consciousness’ propels the electrical particles to form the elements? Is it rational to deny such a possibility? And having reached such a possibility, should you not go further and ask from whence comes electromagnetism? What is the ‘reality’ of electricity more than streaks of fierce light now described by science as photons and electrons? And what is the ‘reality’ of magnetism more than two-fold energies of ‘bonding and rejection’ - energy impulses which have brought stability and order into chaos? Ask science: “From whence comes electromagnetism which is responsible for the most basic steps in the creation of an ordered and orderly universe of an umimaginable complexity and diversity?” There are many who have experienced a little ‘burst of insight’, have briefly felt a touch of ‘Divine Consciousness’ and then, hardly daring to continue to believe in such a transcendant moment of awareness, have begun to question, doubt and finally dispel the little inflow of ‘Divine Consciousness’. Beware you do not do this. Disbelief will set you back, enmesh you in the material plane of existence more than you will ever know. Whatever you are given and able to receive - hold fast to it and do not doubt. Doubt destroys steady progress because it creates its own ‘consciousness forms’ which will suppress and even eradicate the insight you had gained previously. Therefore, your choice of thoughts, - belief or disbelief, doubt or faith, construct or destroy your progress in your search for TRUTH. Any denial erases from your consciousness the progress which has been previously made. Furthermore, the higher you ascend in spiritual truth, the more powerful do your thoughts become. Indeed, I have made numerous efforts to describe the immensity of the Power out of which all things have come but as I have said, it is impossible for me to describe in human terms the Reality of the SOURCE of your BEING.
Those spiritually evolved souls who have been lightly infused with Divine Consciousness report the experience to be utterly beautiful and glorious and entirely unforgettable , - but still not fully describable in human terms. This mystical experience is possible when the frequencies of vibration of the mind are already raised and the entire consciousness is suffused with rays of Divine Consciousness. It is a condition that involves the ‘feelings’ more than the intellect and brain cells. I want to make it manifestly clear that: ‘Nothing ever comes from Nothing’. This is a well known saying amongst you, and a perfectly true one. However, there is an eternal, infinite, consistent FOUNDATION of BEINGNESS - and THIS I am going to reveal to you. You have not been ‘created’ - you have drawn your ‘being’ from IT. Obviously, you could not have come from something entirely foreign to your own consciousness. I am asking my recorder to choose some mundane understandable examples:
You could not squeeze an orange and make ginger beer from the juice.
You could not fill a balloon with air, pop it and find it was dripping jelly.

Your universe is CAUSE & EFFECT made visible. This is an undeviating principle of existence. If there are instances of deviations such as paranormal experiences or instantaneous healings, the average person exclaims in astonishment and science refuses to believe that such a thing is possible. As my explanation deepens, you will eventually understand how such deviations take place - logically and effectually. In other words, these deviations occur according to natural spiritual laws and always serve a necessary purpose. Nowhere is there any mindlessness in creation - even in the ant or gnat.

Here it goes.

ALL (spiritual, unseen/seen/imagined) is CONSCIOUSNESS/AWARENESS.
The primary comprehensive nature of CONSCIOUSNESS is AWARENESS.
It is not possible to have consciousness without possessing awareness.
All that you see, all that you touch, hear, feel, know is CONSCIOUSNESS/AWARENESS made visible. There is nothing in the universe that is not CONSCIOUSNESS made visible. CONSCIOUSNESS/AWARENESS is infinite and eternal. There are TWO DIMENSIONS of CONSCIOUSNESS both beyond and within your own earthly plane of existence - the plane of heavy ‘matter’, ‘solid form’. The ULTIMATE UNIVERSAL DIMENSION of CONSCIOUSNESS/AWARENESS can never be fully or truly known by an individualised spirit.
IT IS INACCESSIBLE.
IT IS IN EQUILIBRIUM.
IT is the ONLY SOURCE of all POWER, WISDOM, LOVE, INTELLIGENCE.
The UNIVERSAL DIMENSION of CONSCIOUSNESS/AWARENESS in equilibrium is a state of SILENCE & STILLNESS out of which come sound, colour, individualised form, and all visible creativity within the visible universe.

Out of ULTIMATE UNIVERSAL DIMENSION of CONSCIOUSNESS/AWARENESS in equilibrium has come all of creation - all the various unseen dimensions of existence descending in order of spirituality from the very portals of the UNIVERSAL DIMENSION down to the most ponderous vibrational frquencies of inanimate earthly substances and beyond into unspeakable horrors of consciousness perversions and anti-Truth.

This ULTIMATE UNIVERSAL DIMENSION of CONSCIOUSNESS/AWARENESS is not only in space IT IS ALL SPACE - IT is undetectibly everywhere. For those who think in terms of atoms - you can say IT is the SPACE in the atom - therefore, IT is ‘in silence and equilibrium’ within the ‘space’ of all elements and ‘matter’. The NATURE of UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS is:
INTENT inactive and in equilibrium
Therefore, Universal Consciousness is an infinite, eternal, limitless, boundless, state of
POWERFUL INTENT - pristine, pure, beautiful.
This INTENT is to
EXPRESS Its NATURE.

UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS NATURE:
INTENT is the ALLNESS of WILL & PURPOSE
always locked in ‘embrace’
The Universal Will is: to move out and create.
The Universal Purpose is: to give individual form to creation and experience it.
Within the ULTIMATE UNIVERSAL DIMENSION OF CONSCIOUSNESS/AWARENESS INTENT UNIVERSAL WILL is in a state of mutual restraint - with UNIVERSAL PURPOSE
both in perfect equilibrium
within SILENCE & STILLNESS
UNIVERSAL WILL is UNIVERSAL INTELLIGENCE
UNIVERSAL PURPOSE is UNIVERSAL LOVE universally in equilibrium - in mutual restraint.
out of WHICH all things visible and invisible and human impulses have taken form.
If you could receive the fullness of UNIVERSAL REALITY into yourself, you would be
disintegrated by IT’s explosive power and dissolved into formless consciousness/awareness.
IT as far transcends the individual humanhood as the heat and light of your sun is
billions times more powerful than the light of your fireflies flickering in darkness.

Now, to you who are so aware of the equality of genders, I speak of:
‘FATHER-MOTHER-CONSCIOUSNESS’ in equilibrium
within UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS/AWARENESS where
‘Father Consciousness - is - Universal Intelligence’
‘Mother Consciousness - is - Universal Love the TOOL of ‘Father Consciousness’ creative energy - electricity is in a state of mutual restraint - equilibrium with the TOOLS of ‘ Mother Consciousness’ creative energy - magnetism
Because ‘FATHER-MOTHER’ tools: electro-magnetism is in equilibrium within
UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS IT will never be detected within SPACE by scientists no matter how they may probe space.
The IMPULSE : ‘Father Consciousness WILL’ is INTELLIGENT ACTIVITY
in equilibrium with
The IMPULSE: ‘Mother Consciousness’ PURPOSE’ is NURTURING for SURVIVAL

‘FATHER-MOTHER CONSCIOUSNESS’ is a powerful impersonal FORCE - yet IT is personal for you even before you seek to make contact with IT. As you evolve spiritually, you will feel IT - for IT is the REALITY of BEING IT is everywhere and within everything .

FATHER CONSCIOUSNESS is the INTELLIGENT LOVE Which gives intelligent energy and momentum to the world of complex forms - expressed physically as electricity.
MOTHER PURPOSE is the LOVING INTELLIGENCE Which gives purpose and the impulse for survival to the individualised complex forms - expressed as magnetism - bonding & repulsion.
These are the UNIVERSAL PRIMAL IMPULSES of ALL BEING of UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS
your SOURCE OF BEING - INTELLIGENCE-LOVE This is the STATE OF BEING before creation. CONSCIOUSNESS/AWARENESS within a STATE OF EQUILIBRIUM.

Namaste.


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The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.


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OfflineMeatyVitamin
The Majority
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Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 185
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Re: Atheism and Shroom-taking [Re: MindGorilla]
    #7777737 - 12/19/07 01:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MindGorilla said:
What is spirituality to you meaty? I myself don't believe in god, but am a very spiritual person. I can feel connected with mother earth and the people around me, because I don't need a God to feel that way.






You make a good point here, i always associated spirituality directly with the belief in a God or supernatural forces. But (after reading many of your posts) I think spirituality can apply to all systems of belief be it theist, atheist, or agnostic. I never really thought spirituality could apply to inner reflection and individual development, but I think that might be what I'm looking for.


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I like to keep my work life and my home life seperate. My job doesn't know I have a wife, and my wife doesn't know I have a job.


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OfflineMeatyVitamin
The Majority
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Registered: 10/28/07
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Re: Atheism and Shroom-taking [Re: ChesterCopperpot]
    #7777772 - 12/19/07 01:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'm getting some mixed reviews on this board, most people think that the drugs are linked to spirituality. But it seems like some people are driven away from atheism by the drug, while others see it as a tool of further self-reflection and eventually an affirmation of their atheism.

Were those who gave up on atheism (or were swayed to the path of agnosticism) actual atheists in the first place or, as someone had previously mentioned, just people who turned their back on a God they in fact believe in?


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I like to keep my work life and my home life seperate. My job doesn't know I have a wife, and my wife doesn't know I have a job.


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OfflineBrainForest
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Registered: 03/29/07
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Re: Atheism and Shroom-taking [Re: MeatyVitamin]
    #7778394 - 12/19/07 04:48 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Religion and spirituality seem to have taken some kind of monopoly on mystical experience. I, myself, often refer to experiences as "spiritual" despite the fact that I am an atheist, for lack of better vocabulary. I don't believe in God, I don't believe in spirits, I don't believe in the soul, I don't believe in free will, I don't believe in anything dualistic or spiritual like that.

Indeed, the psychedelic experience is a "chemical imbalance". So what?

Happiness is a chemical imbalance. Sadness is a chemical imbalance. Love is a chemical imbalance. Awe is a chemical imbalance. The perception of beauty is a chemical imbalance. All aspects of consciousness are chemical or electrical in nature.

Does this make them any less special, any less important, any less real? Of course not. The subjective perception of feeling at one with the universe, of feeling love for all things is a direct experience. You cannot be in the middle of such an experience and dismiss it's existence simply because it isn't the product of a God, or spirits, or magic unicorns that sprinkle love powder on your brain. It doesn't need to be.

The fact that such experiences are possible within the real physical world is just an indicator of how incredible reality actually is. In fact, I would say the psychedelic experience is a more exact, real look at reality than "normal" consciousness. It may not be a practical state of consciousness, but it allows us to see the possibilities that we normally shut out. The regular conscious experience our brain normally creates for us is really the filtering of perception down to tiny little windows that focus on one practical subject at a time, with all the rest of perception tossed aside into either the unconscious or the oblivion of nonexperience.

It is the disparity between this tiny window and the actual totality of perception that creates what we see as "ourselves", as a single unit that is separate from the rest of the universe. The window becomes "I", and we grow to forget that there can be anything else but this window. It's why humans seem normally so fundamentally alone...we know nothing else. When we love someone, it feels so special to us because we feel close enough to see through someone else's window. It's a small addition, but it's powerful nonetheless. And when we take a psychedelic, it starts to break down the wall around the window. It may take out a small piece, it may break a large hole. And sometimes, the whole wall comes crashing down, and we experience ego death.

Suddenly, the world shines down so brightly. There's just so much, so much to experience. Everything shines. Everything is in your mind at once; there's nothing to keep it out. It just flows in, and you're lying in the ocean of bliss, and all is one. You feel you and the universe are the same, because they are the same. You remember what it was like before the wall was built. All your perceptions go directly to experience and all there is to do is bask in it.

We come out of this thinking, "Oh my God. That was so much. There was so much...this can't possibly be a part of reality. Reality is so small and dull in comparison, there's no way what I saw was a part of that." What we don't realize is that reality seems so small and dull not because it really is, but because our brains try to keep it that way by filtering it out. They refine it down it tiny insignificant problems to focus on one at a time, because it's useful to survival. The psychedelic experience is incredibly valuable to us, but is almost never worthwhile to our genes, our DNA, so evolution just cuts it out to keep us focused on the silly matters of everyday life.

And so because of that, it seems like the psychedelic experience is not part of reality. People often do one of two things: They dismiss it as just a meaningless hallucination or chemical imbalance and think "Well that was fun...I guess I must have been really fucked up or something." Or they think "That must have come from something outside of dull physical reality...It must have been a message from a God or some kind of spiritual or supernatural force." It definitely feels like the kind of thing people describe when they talk about religious experiences or spirituality, and it may very well be the same kind of state of the brain. But that does not mean you saw God. It means you saw reality in all it's infinite possibility. That doesn't make it less special, it makes it more so.

Psychedelics are keys to unlocking the mind's perception of the infinite beauty of reality. And that is why an atheist would want to take shrooms.



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InvisibleBirdsIView
Mr. Helms
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Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 736
Re: Atheism and Shroom-taking [Re: MeatyVitamin]
    #7778716 - 12/19/07 06:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MeatyVitamin said:
I was wondering if there are any other atheists on these boards who do shrooms. Many people talk about spiritual experiences or other instances seemingly supernatural as reasons to take shrooms, as a method of expanding your mind in these ways. But I can't think of any reason to do shrooms other than they are a fun thing to do. Having said that, I truly want to believe that there is something to be learned or experienced through the use of hallucinogens.

What I'm trying to get at is why would an atheist do shrooms knowing full-well (if only in in their own mind) that the result will be nothing more than a chemical imbalance temporarily altering the way we perceive the world. Furthermore would a trip even have any lasting relevance to an atheist?

I ask these things because I find myself inexplicably attracted to the effects of shrooms; an attraction that goes beyond "its fun to trip" but I can't quite place it. Almost a spiritual aura to it, but in my mind there is no room for religion or spirituality.




I give shrooms a lot of the credit for why I don't consider myself an atheist today. I can't exactly remember when I started to feel that there's more to life than what it seems but I'm almost positive it came partly as a result of my experience on shrooms. The major thing it allowed me to get past was my ego, and feeling that somehow I was smarter or better than religious people because I looked at things literally. I was raised atheist and pretty much taught to laugh at the ridiculous ideas of religion. I began to realize that just because everything has an explanation doesn't mean that there's nothing else out there. There is a science for everything. If there's an afterlife or other dimensions, there's a scientific way to explain it. Basically, science does not disprove religion, it just shows how God or whomever makes things happen.

Don't be surprised if shrooms do make room in your mind for some form of spirituality.


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Offlinesymbiotic
insighted
Male

Registered: 12/18/07
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Re: Atheism and Shroom-taking [Re: BirdsIView]
    #7778749 - 12/19/07 06:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Your thoughts manifest everything in your life, if you don't think spiritual things exist that's not necesarrily true but it is true that you won't experience them...seek and you shall find. Namaste


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The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Atheism and Shroom-taking [Re: EllisDSox]
    #7779156 - 12/19/07 07:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EllisDSox said:
You're a walking sack of crap, as am I, and all humans. The Earth is just a stupid sphere flying through a black, desolate hell hole with stupid giant lights shining in it. Love is a chemical imbalance in your brain. Happiness is just serotonin and dopamine. Wellbeing is just a result of your natural drives being fulfilled. Your brain is just a worthless piece of trash with electronic signals going through it.

You see what I'm doing here? I'm describing things from a very negative, cynical point of view. Does this change the significance of any of these things? No.

All experience is, to an incredibly large degree, internal. Your comments are just seeing things from a cynical point of view, and don't really mean much. It's just a matter of words. I don't mean this to sound harsh towards you- I'm sure you're a mighty swell guy, but what you just said is basically just sophistry. When two people make love, you could just say they are two animals screwing- nothing in the act or the meaning they find in it will have changed.

You are entirely right that these things are in your head, but then again, you don't experience an objective universe- all of what you experience is in your head- it's basically your mind's conception of an objective universe.

I personally agree with what you're saying, and think that spiritual states are realms of consciousness, and that deities are largely beings within the human mind. Does this make them any less significant? Do you disregard your limbs because they're a part of you?

If anything, these things are infinitely more important when you realise that spiritual occurances are constantly happening within your consciousness. A deity or entity has a significance to you if it's a part of you- if it was a totally external being going about its own business, why would you care at all? God, in my view, is simply a state of totally pure awareness. You reach this state by advancing through your own consciousness, not by begging an external being to show himself to you. You have to open your eyes to see the light.

Now, I don't want to seem like I'm pushing views on you here. If you have no spiritual beliefs at all, then I really think you probably shouldn't- I don't have too much faith in anything I haven't personally experienced, and neither should you.

However, your argument is really quite silly. The same could be said of anything. Meditation isn't spiritual it's just AIR going into your NOSE! Love isn't meaningful, it's just FEELINGS in your BRAIN! The experience is what's important, not how it's induced. There are these wonderful chemicals that can, even from a totally cynical and neurological point of view, open our minds (or brains, if you want to go there).

To disregard things simply because they are in your own head is really quite bizarre. Your love for others is in your head. Even Jesus spoke of the Kingdom of God being within yourself. Spiritual states of consciousness and what we can bring back from them into this world don't lose one tiny piece of their significance simply because they are not the result of an external entity. I always feel, very distinctly, during a trip, that aspects of my consciousness are being painted all over my external universe, and I can see what's happening inside me and outside me.

There is a type of mystical experience, which many people have reported, with or without psychedelics, in which a golden/white light made of pure positive energy totally permeates one's reality. Does the fact that this comes from inside us make it more or less significant? More, in my opinion.

It's strange how things have changed. Once upon a time a religious majority persecuted atheists mercilessly. I have met maybe one or two religious people who were intolerant of atheists in my life. I know dozens upon dozens of atheists who utterly loath people with any kind of spiritual belief. If you don't see things in a spiritual way, then that's totally your choice and I respect that 100%, but you're acting as if people are being stupid when they interpret internal experiences as somehow significant.




Hell yeah! This is it exactly.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineGrylls
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Re: Atheism and Shroom-taking [Re: MeatyVitamin]
    #7779276 - 12/19/07 08:07 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

May I say, that Atheism is also on the same level as religion because they too are making a 'leap of faith.' They claim there can be no God but the science they use to support that claim hardly explains it. The burden of proof is just as much on them as it is for religion claiming there is an afterlife.

I won't get into what aspects of the science does not clarify because I'm not willing to type out an essay at the moment.

I believe the best position to take is a skeptical agnostic. Not a pseudo-skeptic, who denies, but a true skeptic who is open to new experiences and data that supports or opposes a theory.

I was an atheist, and an agnostic too. I have moved into a more spiritual realm that can be described as a mix between Buddhism, Deism and Panentheism. I did not come to my position through the use of any psychedelic, but rather through meditation and other consciousness expanding practices.

I totally agree that psychedelics do give the user temporary access to a reality not available to the mind that is in the 'survival mode.' What I mean by survival mode is complete sobriety, alertness, a strong ego and no physical or mental fatigue--being grounded in the normal waking state consciousness.

While that reality is completely subjective, the experiences does have some intrinsic characteristics that have been mentioned by every traveler. Some of them being: feeling at peace, at one with oneself, bliss, empathy, interconnectedness with the universe. Also at the other end of the spectrum where the archetype of hell may have been created: pain, suffering, damnation, anxiety, fear and trepidation.

I think regardless of the person's set, he/she will always learn something new about themselves or their environment.

I invite curious Atheists to take entheogens, and let them interpret their own concepts...


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Alone in the clouds all blue.  Lying on an eiderdown.  You can't see me, but I can you.


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Offlineorigami.octopus
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Re: Atheism and Shroom-taking [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #7779446 - 12/19/07 08:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
Quote:

guruu said:
  If/when I meet entities while tripping i don't come away thinking it was god, I come away thinking it was part of myself (albeit a very abstract part of my subconscious).  I don't think it was 'just a hallucination,' to me any experience i have while tripping is very real and worthwhile.





I think you are on to something, but I would go a step further and ask what is REALLY the difference? Are our minds and the world around us seperate things? I mean if everything is in your mind when you talk to your freinds are they any more real than mushroom entities? 





Excellent!! glad to see you leading people in that direction. "Are our minds and the world around us separate things?"

Its all just energy isnt it? think about it some non-belivers...  :greenshroom:  = )


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I like to look at mushrooms the way most people like to look at flowers.

this is an amazing game
http://www.kongregate.com/games/customlogic/sprout


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OfflineVeter
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Re: Atheism and Shroom-taking [Re: origami.octopus]
    #7779737 - 12/19/07 10:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

It's strange how things have changed. Once upon a time a religious majority persecuted atheists mercilessly. I have met maybe one or two religious people who were intolerant of atheists in my life. I know dozens upon dozens of atheists who utterly loath people with any kind of spiritual belief. If you don't see things in a spiritual way, then that's totally your choice and I respect that 100%, but you're acting as if people are being stupid when they interpret internal experiences as somehow significant.




I have had the opposite experience and nearly all religious people I meet find atheists appalling. These people are everywhere, and for a little bit of proof, just look at how Mike Huckabee has become the front runner of the GOP.

For the last part of your statement: What I find stupid is not religiosity, but the way that many don't understand their own beliefs, just blindly following what they've been told since birth. I am fine with a Christian who has gone through a struggle to finally choose Christianity or any other religion, but I am not ok with a religious person who believes in one aspect of science while completely embracing other aspects. These are the same people that want creationism taught in science classes.
It is hard not to think someone is stupid when they choose religion over reason 'just cause' and then use those 'beliefs' against you.


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Let the Demons have their place, if so, it's angels you'll create.


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OfflineMustardMan
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Re: Atheism and Shroom-taking [Re: Veter]
    #7779771 - 12/19/07 10:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

anyone believe in Pantheism?


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Wild Psilocybe Ovoideocystidiata

Cultivated Cubensis


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Offlineandresq45
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Re: Atheism and Shroom-taking [Re: MustardMan]
    #7780102 - 12/20/07 12:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'm new here and I gotta say "shroomers" are surprisingly friendly and intelligent, these threads aren't polluted with flame wars. Anyway, I'm Atheist also and yes I know the experiences are all in your head just like twilight is. This doesn't mean it's not special though, your car is still your "baby" even though it's just molded steal and plastic. As for God, he's in the same slot as the lock ness monster...no evidence for it's existance and only mountains of evidence against it. I don't understand why scientists are treated as misguided or arrogant. Science has answered so many questions that were once thought to be unanswerable. Isn't it funny that science has NEVER found something that was supernatural to be true? Many here may dissagree but archology has already disproved all religeons. Evolution is an undeniable fact, there may be things that are still not understood (1st cell) but enough is known to call it case closed. The big bang is hard for many people to beleive cuz of it's complex physics but come on we even have a picture of the frickin' thing in the microwave background radiation. In my personal experience I find shrooms are fun. They make me laugh, they make see weird shapes n' creatures, and they make me understand my "fellow carbon". I think many people use the word spiritual when it's not needed, spiritual implies a ghost or invisible aura. Instead I feel extreme CONNECTION and EMPATHY for all life from worms, birds, trees, algea, dogs, ants, and people.


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OfflineNess1
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Re: Atheism and Shroom-taking [Re: andresq45]
    #7780161 - 12/20/07 01:04 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Well, science may in fact be able to explain everything. In fact, I have no doubt that eventually, science can, in fact, explain everything. I believe that the universe (or multiverse) does indeed operate within a specific set of rules. That doesn't mean, though, that there are not forces beyond our own comprehension and, perhaps, something after this life. We simply can not know. Just because the popular religions are wrong doesn't necessarily mean that when we die, we vanish. I really don't know and don't have an opinion either way, but I think it's silly to think that just because popular religion is wrong, that we can understand everything in the universe. The entire set of rules that run the omniverse are too complicated for the human brain to understand in its entirety so anything is possible.


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I know what they'll find, it's in their mind, it's what they want to see. Spare me from the light, here comes the night and here I'll stay, waiting for darkness.


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Offlineandresq45
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Re: Atheism and Shroom-taking [Re: Ness1]
    #7780272 - 12/20/07 02:03 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yes technically there could be unimaginable possibilities...but nature so far seems to follow a pattern from simple to complex, from quarks to life. So far there is no reason to postulate a creator (centient or not) for the universe that would have to be even more complexe than the multiverse it engineered. I think humans naturally overthink and hope in exess. Always trying to imagine more regardless of lack of evidence...this is where people pull spirits, souls, afterlife, creator, deities....ect


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OfflineNess1
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Re: Atheism and Shroom-taking [Re: andresq45]
    #7780280 - 12/20/07 02:11 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, there is no evidence. Now. There's just an absolutely RIDICULOUS amount of stuff that we don't know. That's my point. There's so much we don't know, there's no telling how things really are.


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I know what they'll find, it's in their mind, it's what they want to see. Spare me from the light, here comes the night and here I'll stay, waiting for darkness.


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OfflineMeatyVitamin
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Re: Atheism and Shroom-taking [Re: Ness1]
    #7780304 - 12/20/07 02:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe "what we know" just pollutes the raw essence of pure human thought. When I take shrooms my senses seem to mean a whole lot less to me, and I tend to do a whole lot more introspection. Think think at the end of the day it isn't what the universe is that is going to define anything, its going to be "what does the universe and its infinity mean to us" and if doing mushrooms can help you understand yourself better and therefore the system applied to every piece of information you take in, all the better.


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I like to keep my work life and my home life seperate. My job doesn't know I have a wife, and my wife doesn't know I have a job.


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Offlinewildchild68
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Re: Atheism and Shroom-taking [Re: Atheist]
    #7780318 - 12/20/07 02:45 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Atheist said:
you'r talkin to me about god when my name says i do not believe in god :confused:

iv read countless threads where people say DMT or shrooms or LSD is spiritual and so on....

uhhhhh they are fucking DRUGS and it is all in your BRAINS,
those spirits you see when you hit the DMT pipe or eat shrooms ARE ALL IN YOUR HEAD




Yup, it is all in our brains. Surely being in our brains make it as valid as anything else we experience in our lifetime?

Considering, you know, we use our brain for everything in life, including our beliefs and ideas.



--------------------


Edited by wildchild68 (12/20/07 02:46 AM)


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