|
JoseLibrado
return


Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 569
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
|
Do you think it is good to eat other animals?
#7768526 - 12/17/07 08:24 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
hello fellows.
Alot of people know that animals are treated quite badly when they are being slaughtered for eating. And some do not.
If you do not eat Organic Free-run meats. You will want to take a look at this video from you tube showing the methods that they use to grow the animals for meat. To grow things that feel pain like me and you.
If you do not eat organic chiken, pigs and beef, you are putting your health at a serious disadvantage, in these videos you will be given reasons why, but also shows the way the meat you eat, is raised.
I also acknowledge that good and bad, only exist in the persons mind to choose. I have not come here and tried to scare anyone, i am not here to scream you are evil if you eat meat.
I DO WANT TO KNOW WHAT MAKES YOU DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT YOU WILL KEEP EATING INORGANIC MEAT, AFTER WATCHING THE VIDEOS.
I came here to show you to know that you have been kept in the dark, about what has been happening...they simply have and cannot show people how they do this to the animals because they would loose millions in profits.
Observe that you play the most important part in the process, because without people like me(just today i stopped and you to buy the meat from the people who own these factorie farms, there would be no profits and no reason to do this.
I know some people do not care about the animals, in the way they would care about a human and if you dont, be true and watch the videos, see how you feel after watching them and prove it. I know many who have said they dont care, but after watching one of them, they realized that they did care, they just didnt know specifically what they didnt care for.
All videos are no longer than 2-3 mins. If at all, and there is a prime example of an organic farm for the final video.
Pigs Warehouse Farms
Organic Farm Animals.
[/image]
This video is a short clip showing how some of the pigs that you eat after, are killed. &feature=related
This is the conditions they spend 3-5 years alive.
&feature=related
Chicken Warehouse Farms. &feature=related
Cow Warehouse Farms
&feature=related
The dairy cows are exactly the same!
There is hope!!!!!

Those happy pictures of animals, are from real farms who are loosing popularity and money to stay practicing these types of practices!
Organic Animal farming!
I wish you all peace. Thank you for letting me share!
-------------------- The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution. And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change. Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems. Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....
Edited by JoseLibrado (12/17/07 08:27 AM)
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7768548 - 12/17/07 08:35 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
All meat is organic. 
Is the lion nice to the zebra or does the zebra bray and flail as it is eaten alive?
This food chain with all of its blood, pain, and gore is the way that the all-loving, all-merciful God designed it.
--------------------
|
JoseLibrado
return


Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 569
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7768564 - 12/17/07 08:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Alrite, kool.
You can compare yourself to a lion. I dont. Which is why i posted it here.
Lions probally cannot sympathize very well and they probally cannot connect their type of sentient existence to the zebra, as well as we do.
This is common, many people try and justify the way they act by looking at nature.
Though it always strikes me inconsistent, if you can consider that we have the capacity to view and analyze our nature.
Maybe our nature has evovled, and not we are of the nature, to create our own nature.
-------------------- The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution. And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change. Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems. Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....
|
Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate



Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 3 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7768613 - 12/17/07 09:12 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Good thread man. I don't have the heart to watch those videos right now ('I don't have to the heart to...' is a funny expression), but I am a vegetarian. I went back-and-forth for about two years, and am now firmly set. It's not a choice that I think is morally superior per se, but it's about building a compassionate personal ethic one step at a time. I still use too much water, too much electricity, too many products which I don't need (generating waste), but I see vegetarianism as a step in the right direction (for me), and also I feel it has substantially helped my health.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Lion]
#7768634 - 12/17/07 09:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I have tried before to be vegetarian, but I never seem to get very far with it. When I do buy meat, I try to go for fish and free-range chicken. I've recently started buying organic milk, mainly because I've heard of how bovine growth hormone often causes pus to get into the milk. Maybe someday I'll kick the meat habit for good, but in the meantime, I try to compensate as much as I can.
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7768686 - 12/17/07 09:43 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
JoseLibrado said: hello fellows.
Alot of people know that animals are treated quite badly when they are being slaughtered for eating. And some do not.
If you do not eat Organic Free-run meats. You will want to take a look at this video from you tube showing the methods that they use to grow the animals for meat. To grow things that feel pain like me and you.
If you do not eat organic chiken, pigs and beef, you are putting your health at a serious disadvantage, in these videos you will be given reasons why, but also shows the way the meat you eat, is raised.
I also acknowledge that good and bad, only exist in the persons mind to choose. I have not come here and tried to scare anyone, i am not here to scream you are evil if you eat meat.
I DO WANT TO KNOW WHAT MAKES YOU DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT YOU WILL KEEP EATING INORGANIC MEAT, AFTER WATCHING THE VIDEOS.
I came here to show you to know that you have been kept in the dark, about what has been happening...they simply have and cannot show people how they do this to the animals because they would loose millions in profits.
Observe that you play the most important part in the process, because without people like me(just today i stopped and you to buy the meat from the people who own these factorie farms, there would be no profits and no reason to do this.
I know some people do not care about the animals, in the way they would care about a human and if you dont, be true and watch the videos, see how you feel after watching them and prove it. I know many who have said they dont care, but after watching one of them, they realized that they did care, they just didnt know specifically what they didnt care for.
All videos are no longer than 2-3 mins. If at all, and there is a prime example of an organic farm for the final video.
Pigs Warehouse Farms
Organic Farm Animals.
[/image]
This video is a short clip showing how some of the pigs that you eat after, are killed. &feature=related
This is the conditions they spend 3-5 years alive.
&feature=related
Chicken Warehouse Farms. &feature=related
Cow Warehouse Farms
&feature=related
The dairy cows are exactly the same!
There is hope!!!!!

Those happy pictures of animals, are from real farms who are loosing popularity and money to stay practicing these types of practices!
Organic Animal farming!
I wish you all peace. Thank you for letting me share!
I already know all this as I have done extensive research into it. I appreciate your posting this volatile subject. Fucking with peoples food is fucking with their sacred beliefs about life, religion and survival.
I ate organic and free range food for some years before I gave up meat and dairy completely as a personal experiment on health issues and a commitment to a detox program that is almost at the end of it's first year.
Don't forget that dairy animals are often treated worse then food animals and they have to endure it for much longer. I myself have visited a dairy farm and saw it all for myself. Becoming the person I would like myself to be I just won't do this shit anymore unless it was truly a survival issue.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
JoseLibrado
return


Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 569
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7768715 - 12/17/07 09:53 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Icelander, i never intended to fuck with anyone, although i did, if fuck meant, show them what it takes to put meat on their plate.
I do acknowledge that the advent of experiencing who we are, is a wonderful experience.
It is easy to pull the plug on experiencing who you are not, but this out right denies the mutual arisal of who you are not, with the advent of who you are.
I find it hard to keep this duality, in prespective, as it is easy for me to go back to the 'good vs. evil' or who i am not, prespective lol.
Love
-------------------- The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution. And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change. Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems. Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7768964 - 12/17/07 11:04 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
i never intended to fuck with anyone,
I never thought you did. That's the Icelander's job.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7769101 - 12/17/07 11:33 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:All meat is organic. 
Until we were poisoned to become sick and ill by steroids, stress hormones, antibiotics, plastic and whatever unknown shit from 'hyper-cultivation'. And the way 'they' treat the animals is a picture what is to come to human industrial 'slaves' as well. I try to look for natural 'grown' food - as natural as possible. The rising prices, and/or the raising effort to get this, represents its rising value.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7769787 - 12/17/07 01:56 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Sorry people, but there is no inorganic meat.
or·gan·ic Pronunciation[awr-gan-ik]
–adjective
1. noting or pertaining to a class of chemical compounds that formerly comprised only those existing in or derived from plants or animals, but that now includes all other compounds of carbon.
2. characteristic of, pertaining to, or derived from living organisms
--------------------
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7769823 - 12/17/07 02:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
You forgot the third definition:
3. Food that is certified as having met the production standards of the National Organic Program(NOP).
Sorry to pop your semantic bubble.
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7770152 - 12/17/07 03:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Sorry people, but there is no inorganic meat.
or·gan·ic Pronunciation[awr-gan-ik]
–adjective
1. noting or pertaining to a class of chemical compounds that formerly comprised only those existing in or derived from plants or animals, but that now includes all other compounds of carbon.
2. characteristic of, pertaining to, or derived from living organisms
We're talking about feeding the animals with organically grown food. I'm surprised you don't realize that.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/17/07 03:41 PM)
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Silversoul]
#7770184 - 12/17/07 03:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Silversoul: +1 points.
--------------------
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7770198 - 12/17/07 03:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I am surprised that you are surprised. A true warrior is never caught off guard.
Er, I mean I am not at all surprised - yeah, that's what I meant...
--------------------
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7770287 - 12/17/07 04:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I take responsibility for my actions. In doing so I weigh the moral issues against my own needs and I usually win out. I prefer free range meat, but in the area I live this is limited, so I utilize protein sources from more "commercial" sources as well. Vegan lifestyles can be a healthy alternative, but animal protein is important to the health goals that I have set and I will continue to utilize them.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7770671 - 12/17/07 05:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
animal protein is important to the health goals that I have set
Now there's a debate I think I could win.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7770742 - 12/17/07 06:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I do not think that you could. Without consuming meat or dairy there is no good way to reach 2 grams of protein for kilogram of body weight while staying under 2400 calories a day with all of the required nutrients. With soy it is possible, but soy (particularly fermented soy) is not all that healthy in large quantities. You could argue with your stack of books, but my stack is just as high. In the end it would get nowhere.
Note: I said that animal protein is important to MY health goals. Your health goals are not mine.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (12/17/07 06:13 PM)
|
lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7771056 - 12/17/07 07:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
i dunno man that sound like bullshit to me 
many of my relatives are vegetarian and seem healthy to me
my aunt and uncle and their 3 kids are all bahai vegans and are very healthy
i planted trees with two of my vegan cousins for a season and they seemed to do better than me despite no animal protein... that is back breaking physical labor
you can be fine without animal protein and stay under 2400 calories
my mom is a vegetarian and when she was pregnant with me there were no soy products, i was born perfectly healthy
i myself do eat meat (fish and wild meat) but i see it as a luxury i can enjoy that is not necessary
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7771083 - 12/17/07 07:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
You are assuming that it is necessary AND beneficial to consume so much protein each day. The research simply does not support this assertion. Americans eat wayyyy too much protein, almost all from animal sources, and it is not benefiting their health whatsoever.
It's OK if you still want to eat meat, but don't defend it as a choice that is supporting your health. Plant-based protein is very low in calories, high in fiber, and present in quantities that are more in balance with our actual macronutrient requirements. Excessive protein consumption is damaging to the kidneys, and animal protein is very high in calories compared to plant protein.
Vegetarians are healthier, longer-lived & better-balanced hormonally. All the so-called benefits of animal protein can be derived from plant proteins, but without the saturated fat and uric acid.
Edited by Veritas (12/17/07 07:30 PM)
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
Notice I did say that one could stay healthy with a vegan lifestyle. I never disputed that. I also referenced MY health goals which extend beyond just maintaining a healthy diet.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Veritas]
#7771156 - 12/17/07 07:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
From www.bodybuilding.com
Very often I am asked if eating the amount of protein required of a bodybuilding diet will lead to kidney damage. This FAQ will answer this question and hopefully put all of your fears to rest.
A. Fact is that there are no studies that have ever shown a high protein diet causing kidney damage in persons with normal kidney function. Only people who already have a pre-existing kidney condition need to be concerned with keeping their protein in check.
In a study(1) that was performed this year designed to study the effects of a high protein diet in young men, the blood markers for kidney function of 77 men who participated in an average of 6 hours of weight training per week (average age of 26), and ate a diet consisting of 19% protein were analyzed. Their protein intake came out to be about 0.76 grams of protein per pound bodyweight, which is very close to the 1 gram per pound minimum that is typically recommended for bodybuilders.
Primary blood tests for kidney function were ran in which blood urea nitrogen, uric acid and creatinine levels were monitored. The measurements showed that all of these items were within normal parameters in all participating men. Therefore, one can conclude that a high protein diet does not apply stress on healthy kidneys.
It must be mentioned that kidney function naturally declines with age due to the gradual loss of nephrons which are the kidney's filtering units. This loss can be caused by ailments like heart disease since in this case the blood flow to the kidneys is reduced. Also untreated high blood pressure can lead to kidney damage as well as long term use of prescription and non prescription pain relievers such as aspirin.
--------------------
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7771171 - 12/17/07 07:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Bodybuilders are notorious for ignoring valid health research results & advocating excessive protein intake. 
This forum is not really the place for a debate about protein, however, and I've already extensively addressed this issue in the P&M forum.
|
Boots
Disenchanted


Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7771196 - 12/17/07 07:48 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I eat animals because it's tasty, necessary, and convenient. I really don't care how they die.
|
JoseLibrado
return


Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 569
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Veritas]
#7771203 - 12/17/07 07:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Huehue - Just Eat hemp protein, you will be much better off. Hemp is the most ancient crop we have ever planted. The oldest human relic from a civilization 10000 BC china, is a shoes made out of hemp.
Hemp protien and hemp hearts(the protein part of the seed) contain essential fatty acids and 100% digestible proteins. I suggest looking into it...as for me, i think because of my blood type or something in me, that screams meat, i need to eat chicken about once a month. Fish would be fine too. Always organic too for reasons of the way they raise conventional chickens.
What is more is the negative vibes coming from the meat that lives such a life is unbalancing and makes me aggresive.
peace amigos
-------------------- The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution. And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change. Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems. Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....
|
lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7771214 - 12/17/07 07:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
ok cool
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Veritas]
#7771253 - 12/17/07 08:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Bodybuilders are notorious for ignoring valid health research results & advocating excessive protein intake.
Your personal opinion of muscleheads is irrelevant. The website merely linked to a university study presented at a sports & fitness symposium with full controls and tests done by PhDs, not gym rats.
If you wish to counter to a study that shows protein as damaging to a healthy kidney, that would be a much better response.
--------------------
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Veritas]
#7771299 - 12/17/07 08:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
My recent experience has shown me that to build the amount of muscle that I am after (and that I have built in the last 3 months) that protein levels slightly above the norm are a definite help. In addition to running 5 miles daily, I also spend about 60 minutes a day with resistance training, and my greatest gains in strength and muscle mass are in direct correlation to my intake of lean proteins. One can maintain a fair amount of muscle with as little as 30 grams a day, but to gain over 25 pounds of muscle (not fat) would be very difficult to do (if not impossible) with a vegan diet. Plant proteins are not complete proteins, and much food combining is needed to make these proteins usable for building muscle. Too much protein can be damaging to the kidney's, but that would require in excess of 400 grams of protein daily to accomplish. If one consults reference literature based on objective science the burden of proof leans heavily in my direction. There is no evidence that being vegan leads to better health. It more seems that people who follow a balanced diet with a wide variety of whole foods and maintain a healthy body weight are the healthiest be they vegan or not. It is fine if you want to be vegan...I think that it is great, but your facts are skewed somewhat. A diet is a means to an end and there is NO cookie cutter diet. As for me, I am enjoying excellent health, and while I do not know what "hormonally balanced" means I am more happy and clear minded than I have ever been.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Veritas]
#7771319 - 12/17/07 08:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
This forum is not really the place for a debate about protein, however, and I've already extensively addressed this issue in the P&M forum.
So while you can express your views here you shoot down the attempts of others to express theirs...how open minded.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7771366 - 12/17/07 08:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
All of my reading and recent experience has shown me that the quickest route to lean body mass and strength is by using the methods pioneered by bodybuilders. There is no doubt that these methods work. Bodybuilders spend more time achieving this than anyone, so their methods should not be ignored. I myself have lost 150 pounds by these methods and I have become intensely active, while maintaining skyrocketing energy levels, and I think my experience is worth considering.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7771517 - 12/17/07 08:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
what do you mean by that? you lost weight by changing your diet to include more protein?
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7771610 - 12/17/07 09:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
Quote:
This forum is not really the place for a debate about protein, however, and I've already extensively addressed this issue in the P&M forum.
So while you can express your views here you shoot down the attempts of others to express theirs...how open minded.
No, I responded to your post, even though it was not really on-topic for this forum. I am not going to re-post the extensive research I have already linked to on at least 3 other threads in the appropriate forum for this discussion.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6779751#6779751 http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6977640#6977640 http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7148099#7148099
As I said, it is fine for you to decide that you WANT to eat meat, but it is not a fact that animal protein is necessary to build muscle or maintain health.
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7771655 - 12/17/07 09:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
You did not link to your study, so I cannot evaluate the validity of the sample size, selection or study methodology. If you are interested in contrasting studies, please see the links I posted to threads in the forum which actually deals with these topics.
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Veritas]
#7771753 - 12/17/07 09:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
The articles you posted links to just affirm that a vegetarian or vegan diet can be a healthy choice. I never said that it wasn't. I said that you cannot gain a large amount of muscle on a vegan diet easily. For someone who is not very physically active a vegan diet can suffice, but to engage in the activities that I am pursuing strength and endurance are a must. For strength and endurance muscle is required. I have seen no legit studies that deny my conclusions about protein....quite the opposite.
Quote:
it is not a fact that animal protein is necessary to build muscle or maintain health.
Just saying this does not make it true. I would argue that you personally have no relevant experience that demonstrates that your diet choice builds muscle as you are effectively an indoor, inactive person.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
More lean protein, more vegetables, more fruit, no junk, exercise, and calorie restriction. It is a total package.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7771914 - 12/17/07 10:03 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Well, you are certainly free to ignore the evidence I've already linked to. As to your personal assertions: which of us uses a car for daily personal transportation?
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Veritas]
#7771973 - 12/17/07 10:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
All the animals in the world suffering doesn't make any difference because we are a speck of dust and all of us could die tomorrow and nothing would matter.
|
AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7772090 - 12/17/07 10:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
It's good, although it is not an ideal energy source.
Here's some food for thought:
The biggest animals - elephants, hippopotamuses, giraffes, horses, gorillas, and rhinoceroses - all eat predominately green vegetables. Where do they get the protein necessary to grow so big? They get it from the greens they eat.
All protein on the planet is formed from the effect of sunlight on green plants. A cow doesn't eat another cow to get the protein necessary to build its muscles (which we call steak). The protein comes from the grass the cow eats.
Most people mistakenly think they need to include animal products in their diets to ensure adequate protein intake.
But the reality is that it is easy to get more than enough protein eating a plant-based, whole-foods, vegetarian diet. Plus, it is much easier to digest and thus puts a lot less strain on the body.
--------------------
Edited by AlteredAgain (12/17/07 10:59 PM)
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Veritas]
#7772126 - 12/17/07 11:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Veritas said: Well, you are certainly free to ignore the evidence I've already linked to. As to your personal assertions: which of us uses a car for daily personal transportation?
Which of us uses a demolecularizer / remolecularizer for daily transport?
--------------------
|
daytripper23
?


Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: daytripper23]
#7772426 - 12/18/07 12:30 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Woot! done with classes. Now I can waste my braincells at the shroomery.
Might it occur to you diet elitists, that health is more than getting your daily vitamins and minerals? I know that it is a biological concern, but theres a whole lot about diet we dont know about.
Im vegetarian, but this sounds like some major imposition going around here. I can understand if your crusade is for ethical reasons, which isnt my territory at all, but it doesnt seem like this is the main concern here...
Edited by daytripper23 (12/18/07 12:41 AM)
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Veritas]
#7772793 - 12/18/07 03:56 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
My assertions are very true. I did read the articles, but only the abstracts were actually there. The links to the other part of your evidence required I subscribe to something. In any case I have yet to see any evidence that a healthy vegan diet is any better than a healthy diet that includes a wide variety of foods including meat. I have also read about this subject extensively, and the current accepted science tells me that protein IS needed to build muscle, and that without a good complete protein source it will not happen. When one seeks to lose weight one MUST create muscle to acquire long term weight loss. Weight loss can occur with a vegan diet, but without rebuilding the muscle lost in the process the fat will return because muscle burns fat. My experience which is based on choosing the quickest and most practical route to my goal has taught me that my stance is practical and workable.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (12/18/07 04:28 AM)
|
EllisDSox
King Hella!

Registered: 01/22/07
Posts: 25,730
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7772826 - 12/18/07 04:39 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
All meat is organic.
Is the lion nice to the zebra or does the zebra bray and flail as it is eaten alive?
This food chain with all of its blood, pain, and gore is the way that the all-loving, all-merciful God designed it.
I take it you are 100% self-sufficient and hunt for all your food, without the use of tools. You brave lion of a man.
-------------------- Disclaimer: If you have any kind of heart condition, my posts are not for you. You could literally die from reading the first couple of words in any one of them. Scroll down the page, live your life and prosper, but don't read my posts because your heart will probably explode. I am not joking.
|
druglord
Stranger
Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 90
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7772990 - 12/18/07 07:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
One thing about vegetable protein sources is that they are all high in soluble fiber so if you rely completely on those, your body will feel like a fish tank with gas bubbles rising inside it all day long, causing cramps and making you fart excessively until your ass is sore.
I'm 6'5 and I have to get at least 150g of protein/day to avoid looking anorexic, but unfortunately the vegetarian route is infeasible because of what the soluble fiber does. That being said, I highly recommend quinoa as a source of complete protein (yep, complete!) You can cook it and use it like rice, but it is a seed and therefore will give you gas.
|
Groomies
Ghost



Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 1,119
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7773021 - 12/18/07 08:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
EAT THEM ALL!!!!!! if i could feed you animal lovers to the cows i would. then i'll eat the cow.
|
AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Groomies]
#7773042 - 12/18/07 08:29 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
man-made cattle feed
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7773131 - 12/18/07 09:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: I do not think that you could. Without consuming meat or dairy there is no good way to reach 2 grams of protein for kilogram of body weight while staying under 2400 calories a day with all of the required nutrients. With soy it is possible, but soy (particularly fermented soy) is not all that healthy in large quantities. You could argue with your stack of books, but my stack is just as high. In the end it would get nowhere.
Note: I said that animal protein is important to MY health goals. Your health goals are not mine.
Spirulina for one example is 60% protein and nutrient dense. Things like hemp, other algae, quinoa, millet etc. can round this out. You just need to get outside of the cultural box and learn about the possibilities. You could do this easily if you wanted. There are awesome bodybuilders and athletes who are vegan or vegetarian.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Groomies]
#7773133 - 12/18/07 09:22 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Groomies said: EAT THEM ALL!!!!!! if i could feed you animal lovers to the cows i would. then i'll eat the cow.
Spoken like a true patriot. I bet you let Jesus tell you how to live too.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7773161 - 12/18/07 09:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I said that you cannot gain a large amount of muscle on a vegan diet easily. For someone who is not very physically active a vegan diet can suffice, but to engage in the activities that I am pursuing strength and endurance are a must.
Yeah this vegetarian looks very inactive.http://vegetarianbodybuilder.ipbhost.com/uploads/post-74-1141605327.jpg
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
EllisDSox
King Hella!

Registered: 01/22/07
Posts: 25,730
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7773251 - 12/18/07 10:03 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
See what happens to pansy vegetarian? That one there turned into a woman.
I'm actually a vegetarian, and it's easy to get enough protein without having negative effects. The Shaolin monks are vegetarian, and they could kick the crap out of any meat eating body builder.
-------------------- Disclaimer: If you have any kind of heart condition, my posts are not for you. You could literally die from reading the first couple of words in any one of them. Scroll down the page, live your life and prosper, but don't read my posts because your heart will probably explode. I am not joking.
|
lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7773337 - 12/18/07 10:43 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
maybe (and this is a big maybe) but MAYBE
if you were in some kind of "bodybuilding program" and the point was to gain muscle mass as fast as possible, maybe then you would need additional protein supplements beyond unrefined vegetarian foods
maybe
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
|
|
Groomies
Ghost



Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 1,119
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7773497 - 12/18/07 11:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
jesus? HA! if i could feed him and all his BS to the cows i would. then i'll eat the cow. MUHAHAHA
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Groomies]
#7773555 - 12/18/07 12:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Does anyone disagree that moral vegetarianism is masturbation?
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7773557 - 12/18/07 12:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said: Does anyone disagree that moral vegetarianism is masturbation?
How so?
--------------------
|
Clean
the lense


Registered: 05/11/03
Posts: 2,374
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7773579 - 12/18/07 12:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
there's three types of people in this world:
Those who enjoy eating dead animal flesh and do so regularly Those who don't enjoy eating dead animal flesh and never do so and those who are undecided / don't care

and no, we can't all "just get along". not yet anyway.
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Silversoul]
#7773594 - 12/18/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Because animals, and people for that matter, have lived and died on this earth for so long that it doesn't matter what they do at all. This earth could explode for no reason and the only thing that would the universe would lose would be a speck of dust in its vast creation.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7773631 - 12/18/07 12:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said: Because animals, and people for that matter, have lived and died on this earth for so long that it doesn't matter what they do at all. This earth could explode for no reason and the only thing that would the universe would lose would be a speck of dust in its vast creation.
What does this have to do with masturbation?
--------------------
|
Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!



Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7773651 - 12/18/07 12:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I like to eat cows, pigs, and assorted avians. No one will stop me. I know how much they suffer before they die, but I'm hungry...
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
Edited by Tchan909 (12/18/07 12:35 PM)
|
lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Silversoul]
#7773653 - 12/18/07 12:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
xFrockx said: Because animals, and people for that matter, have lived and died on this earth for so long that it doesn't matter what they do at all. This earth could explode for no reason and the only thing that would the universe would lose would be a speck of dust in its vast creation.
What does this have to do with masturbation?
he means that the earth could explode at any moment like a giant penis
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7773656 - 12/18/07 12:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I sat the fence about eating meat for many years. The deciding factors for me were:
1. Inhumane treatment of animals, which I object to both because it goes against my values to abuse and torture other sentient beings, and because of the toxic chemicals released into the meat (which will later end up in the body of whomever consumes the meat).
2. The incredible amount of evidence showing both the negative health impact of eating meat and dairy, and the increased lifespan and health span enjoyed by vegetarians and vegans. Too many of my relatives have destroyed their health and impaired their ability to enjoy their life by eating poorly and being sedentary. I want to be youthful and healthy now AND in the future, and the evidence indicates that a vegan diet and an active lifestyle is the best way to achieve this.
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
|
Close.
I was alluding to the fact that like masurbation, moral vegetarianism is an activity that it may feel good, but really you're just screwing yourself...
|
daytripper23
?


Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7773865 - 12/18/07 01:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
yea i get what your saying. I think this can kind of go with all morals really. Reminds me of some previous threads on this board.
I take it that moral masterbation is the majority of human morals. Id say this is most of the moral vegetarians out there. Im probably still in this boat myself for the most part. Its this attitude that moral obligation has been lifted. "I am not contributing to any kind of pain for any other beings, and in this I am perfect. Now I can finally relax"
Bullshit. If you put moral obligation on yourself, you cant really lift it.
But also I think there are morals based on true compassion. Not this attitude of assumed ethical perfection, for some external cause, but something you just do because you can relate to others.
The concept of morality seems impossible to actually resolve, But you can also be nice to others just because you care about them. You don't take any attitude about it, you just do it because it makes sense.
Maybe it makes you feel good, but this can be a consequence of your compassion. You don't necessarily do it for yourself even though it makes you feel good. This concept is true selflessness as I understand it.
Like this, I think aesthetics and ethics can be bridged. Jesus, Buddha, and all the rest, were artists before they were saints.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: EllisDSox]
#7774444 - 12/18/07 04:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The Shaolin monks are vegetarian, and they could kick the crap out of any meat eating body builder.
Not about diet, but I saw a fifth level black belt pick a fight in the gym with a power lifter. The power lifter fucked him up good.
Moral: don't mess with someone who can dead lift 750 pounds no matter how skilled your techniques.
--------------------
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7774755 - 12/18/07 05:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
The only complete vegetable protein is soy. Spirulina is a healthy food, that I have read about recently, but it lacks the appropriate amounts of lysine to enable the body to use it as a protein source. Once again the best sources of lysine are animal. In combination with a varied diet it is a healthy supplement. There ARE vegetarian bodybuilders who are quite successful. They utilize eggs and dairy to great effect. True vegan bodybuilders are very rare as their only option is soy which is not healthy if used as a primary protein source alone.
Now I ask you? If a omnivorous diet is as healthy as a vegan one (or more so)...and it is, then why should I consider a pure vegan diet? I have no moral compunction with eating animals. I don't worry about such a karmic debt. Unless....your really selling politics instead of health, and I think you are.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
igwna
The Cap'n


Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 8,016
Loc: New England, USA
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7775264 - 12/18/07 07:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
i think it is good to eat other animals. that was what instincts told us and that is what other animals do. that is the way it is meant to be.
nature prevails.
-------------------- I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
|
kody260z
Stranger

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 72
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: igwna]
#7775394 - 12/18/07 08:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
But in this day and age, it is absolutely unnecessary; in fact, as many people have already mentioned, study after study shows that the average vegetarian is much healthier than the average meat eater. Does this go to show that all meat eaters are unhealthy and all vegetarians are healthy? Of course not. But all in all, in general, the pattern is the less meat you eat, the healthier you are and the longer you live.
But for those of you who either disagree with this, or who happen to not care about their health, AND don't care about the fact that an animal had to suffer and die because it tastes good, what about the environment? Eating meat from factory farms is an ecological NIGHTMARE (see http://tinyurl.com/jl53v for proof). If we don't care about our health or about animals, don't we at least care about the planet?
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: kody260z]
#7775433 - 12/18/07 08:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
The average vegetarian is healthier than the average meat eater because by becoming vegetarian you are making a conscious decision about your diet. The average meat eater never even does that, and thus will probably live a less healthy lifestyle. It means nothing.
As for ecology, well fuck, where are we going to plant all these damn things? Gotta make room somewhere.
Edited by xFrockx (12/18/07 08:33 PM)
|
igwna
The Cap'n


Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 8,016
Loc: New England, USA
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: kody260z]
#7775443 - 12/18/07 08:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
i understand that. i wish it was different. but i am reluctant to say i probably won't change and give up eating meat over it. 
does this make me a bad person?
-------------------- I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
|
kody260z
Stranger

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 72
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7775444 - 12/18/07 08:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
True, but how do you conclude that that means nothing? If I decide to start eating 100 Snicker's bars a day, isn't that also a conscious decision about my diet? The fact that being vegetarian is healthier on average than a meat eater is because just that - eating a vegetarian diet is generally a healthier dietary decision than eating a meat-filled diet.
|
kody260z
Stranger

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 72
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: kody260z]
#7775461 - 12/18/07 08:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
no it doesn't make you a bad person. But I think each of us has the power to make a difference, even if it is just reducing our consumption of meat, rather than eliminating it.
And as for "As for ecology, well fuck, where are we going to plant all these damn things? Gotta make room somewhere.", while intuitively it seems like if the world were vegetarian, we would need more plants, this is actually incorrect. It takes up to 13 pounds of grain to create just one pound of meat - it is a VERY inefficient conversion of calories. The more meat consumption decreases, the less animals are consumed, AND the less plants are consumed. It is a win-win situation.
|
kody260z
Stranger

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 72
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: kody260z]
#7775469 - 12/18/07 08:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
"Raising animals for food is grossly inefficient, because while animals eat large quantities of grain, they only produce small amounts of meat, dairy products, or eggs in return. This is why more than 70 percent of the grain and cereals that we grow in this country are fed to farmed animals. It takes up to 16 pounds of grain to produce just one pound of meat, and even fish on fish farms must be fed 5 pounds of wild-caught fish to produce one pound of farmed fish flesh.17,18 All animals require many times more calories, in the form of grain, soybeans, oats, and corn, than they can possibly return in the form of animal flesh for meat-eaters to consume.
The world's cattle alone consume a quantity of food equal to the caloric needs of 8.7 billion people—more than the entire human population on Earth.19 About 20 percent of the world's population, or 1.4 billion people, could be fed with the grain and soybeans fed to U.S. cattle alone."
|
panmndgyold
Stranger
Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 12
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: daytripper23]
#7775472 - 12/18/07 08:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
dog eat dog man eat dog god tea nma
tea enemas?
Edited by panmndgyold (12/18/07 08:47 PM)
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: kody260z]
#7775511 - 12/18/07 08:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I would say eating 100 snickers bars a day would be an unconscious health decision... but thats just me.
The fact of the matter is, meat eating is the "default" diet for people. Those who become vegetarians are doinf so for any number of reasons, one of which may be the supposed health benefits. Those who eat meat do so because thats what they were raised on, so if they continue it, they are doing so based only on previous experience, not a health or moral decision. So, many of those who eat meat and never change will become obese people simply because of the fact that they don't eat right. Would these people be healthier as vegans? Possibly, but they could be every bit as healthy staying on their omnivorous diet and eating healthy. It may not be great to eat a lot of red meat and the like, but fish and seafood, especially raw, have undeniable health benefits that could sustain a person and keep them in good health if it were a part of their diet.
|
kody260z
Stranger

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 72
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7775554 - 12/18/07 09:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Of course, I'm not denying the fact that it is quite possible to eat meat and still be healthy. I'm just pointing out the fact that all in all, statistics show that the less meat one consumes, the more likely they are to be healthy. Furthermore, there is a whole slew of other problems from the meat industry (animal suffering, environment, even human starvation) that all can be combated with simple dietary modifications. That's all.
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7775634 - 12/18/07 09:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: The only complete vegetable protein is soy.
Incorrect. Other complete protein sources for vegans are quinoa, hemp seeds, spirulina, just to name a few.
Quote:
Spirulina is a healthy food, that I have read about recently, but it lacks the appropriate amounts of lysine to enable the body to use it as a protein source. Once again the best sources of lysine are animal.
Incorrect. Here's more info. about Spirulina.
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/spirulina-000327.htm
Quote:
True vegan bodybuilders are very rare as their only option is soy which is not healthy if used as a primary protein source alone.
No, again, this is incorrect. You assume that an individual must consume a single source of essential amino acids in order to obtain protein. If you eat foods containing the amino acids, though none of them may be individually "complete," your body obtains the necessary macronutrient building blocks.
Quote:
why should I consider a pure vegan diet?
The only reason to consider a pure vegan diet is if you want to maximize your chances of living a long, healthy life.
|
igwna
The Cap'n


Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 8,016
Loc: New England, USA
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: panmndgyold]
#7775971 - 12/18/07 11:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
panmndgyold said: dog eat dog man eat dog god tea nma
tea enemas?
i don't get it
-------------------- I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 7 hours
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7776564 - 12/19/07 06:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I have felt guilt from eating animals my whole life. And decimated animal species. I am an animal lover, and I have always had pets. I have three parrots now. Everybody knows that can't be easy. Yet, being a cook, I cook and serve and eat animals. Personally though I cook vegetarian food half of the time for my family.
My thought was that I would always love to own a cow retirement community and let them live out their days happily. Karmicallly speaking I think that would be a good way to pay off the negative.
-------------------- ...or something
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7776848 - 12/19/07 09:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
The Shaolin monks are vegetarian, and they could kick the crap out of any meat eating body builder.
Not about diet, but I saw a fifth level black belt pick a fight in the gym with a power lifter. The power lifter fucked him up good.
Moral: don't mess with someone who can dead lift 750 pounds no matter how skilled your techniques.
That's a stupid moral. Just because someone got a fifth level degree from Acme martial arts doesn't mean they can fight. Lifting 750 lbs. wouldn't mean much either if you couldn't already fight.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7776886 - 12/19/07 09:24 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: The only complete vegetable protein is soy. Spirulina is a healthy food, that I have read about recently, but it lacks the appropriate amounts of lysine to enable the body to use it as a protein source. Once again the best sources of lysine are animal. In combination with a varied diet it is a healthy supplement. There ARE vegetarian bodybuilders who are quite successful. They utilize eggs and dairy to great effect. True vegan bodybuilders are very rare as their only option is soy which is not healthy if used as a primary protein source alone.
Now I ask you? If a omnivorous diet is as healthy as a vegan one (or more so)...and it is, then why should I consider a pure vegan diet? I have no moral compunction with eating animals. I don't worry about such a karmic debt. Unless....your really selling politics instead of health, and I think you are.
I think you are incorrect about soy. Did you check out quinoa and millet. And of course one doesn't eat only one type of food in a day. You would have some difficulties over time if you only ate chicken.
Since our ancestors seemed to have eaten a mostly vegetarian diet at one time I think one can thrive on it. As far as Vegan diets go and although I am eating vegan these days, I'm not so sure of that only because we don't have access to enough vegetable variety's that are not commercial hybrid vegetables. I'm doing the vegan thing as a cleansing and healing diet and I don't think I will stay on it for more than one to three years.
Politics is a big thing for me. I resent torture farming and I am loathe to support it. I also wonder if the stress that those animals undergo does not leave chemical traces in the muscle that by ingesting might do me harm not to mention the hormones and other nasties. For me it just ain't right.
All I am saying is that you don't need to eat meat to grow big muscles and be a high energy athlete. So if you eat meat it's because you enjoy it and accept the suffering of those animals for your pleasure. I don't care what you choose.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: igwna]
#7776888 - 12/19/07 09:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
that is the way it is meant to be.
Good sheepie.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: panmndgyold]
#7776895 - 12/19/07 09:28 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
panmndgyold said: dog eat dog man eat dog god tea nma
tea enemas?
You're already banned.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7777062 - 12/19/07 10:19 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Lifting 750 lbs. wouldn't mean much either if you couldn't already fight.
Perhaps not, but powerlifters have core strength like no other athletes.
When I was pretty buffed (i.e. - last month), I messed around with a friend who was fairly sedentary but 6' 9". Holy fuck! He tossed me around like a rag doll. Sometimes raw strength and size can overcome technique.
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7777249 - 12/19/07 11:12 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Strength and technique are both important.
A good technician would just kick out a knee.
But if all you are is bulk then maybe I will put my money on the fast runner.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/19/07 11:13 AM)
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7777301 - 12/19/07 11:26 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
A really strong person could just go for a heart punch and kill the little ninja. There's been pro-wrestlers killed like that before.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7777378 - 12/19/07 11:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
You have to land that punch and that isn't easy to do on someone who is fast moving. I know this from experience.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
JoseLibrado
return


Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 569
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7777381 - 12/19/07 11:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I open the board to the possibility of this question as being a lead off to anyone who eats factory farmed meat or any meat of any kind.
Would you be able to look into that animals eyes, even the one of the ones in the pictures playing with each other and feel them squirm for life like you would, right before you smash them repeatedly in the head or slit their throat? Would you be able to put pigs and cows face first into scolding water, 400 degrees water and watch them squirm to death screaming for you to stop?the pigs in the first video, which is common in factory farms, have this happen to them.
I know i wouldnt want that pain if i was the pig, especially one of those cute little fuzzy pigs.
oh actually soy is one of the worst plant protiens. You can only digest about 67% of the proteins in the nut. (tofu is about 90%). Hemp seeds are the best, buy hemp hearts. YOu can digest just about 100% of the protein.
I eat organic chicken about or wild fish about one every two weeks and even that because of the last question i think i may cut it out. It is hard being accustomed to eating meat and being disconnected from the processes that make it possible.
Man my friend kept telling me on a chat..."hey man, im not gonna stop eating it, just because someone tells me its bad" He said this like 3 times and 3 times i said "I am not implying it is bad all i ask is that you look at the things you are responsible for occuring and make up your mind if this is who you are,in relation to the pigs." Well he couldnt watch them, because he thought no matter what he wouldnt.
I think it just has to do with proving himself as independent thinker to me and showing me that he influences himself, by telling me that he;'s not gonna stop because of anything i tell him.
This in itself is a though process created for him, by society, in so far as he assumes that there are GOods and bads. His good and bad, dichotomy, however, doesnt include the specifics of what society has taught him, but most definiatly the framework for his understanding of what good and bad are. He see's good now as following your own influence and he is trying to prove to himself he is a good person, by denying that anything someone shows him, has an effect on him.
He has just simply created an extension on the foundation that plagues the human mind, self-rightous conviction.
Though, what i think is at the core of this belief and ultimatly what makes him be scared of change, is believing that good and bad, do not arise mutually, in unity.
If he was within the belief that good and bad, are equally important and arise in unison with each other, sharing one foundational ground in experience, he would have no troubles watching the videos, because he would lack a feeling of threatened by "bad", that in this belief, does not come with good.
He is afraid of being wrong, because he cannot live with being wrong, in so far as he cannot see that to be wrong, one must be right too. Why? If you know yourself to be wrong, you must be right about being wrong. If he knew this he would have no difficulty living up to the possibility of being wrong, that what i was proposing to him to do, definatly had.
A tool that allows us to create this experience with knowing it is the tool of denial.
He like all of us can become like this and if we know what we are, we can see what we can be, which is this.
Here in what we are not, exists the capacity for us to experience who we are, the capacity for the sentence, this is who i am.
What troubles me is being in a habit of denying the importance of who i am not, as critical to the experience of who i am. I utlimatly become, when i do this, self rightous and bitter.
I am making an announcement, for everyone to hear.
I accept myself and the not myself equally. hahaha. Here comes the he who denies to come and play. From one world to the next, ahhh, refreshing.
PEace Peace
-------------------- The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution. And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change. Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems. Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....
|
igwna
The Cap'n


Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 8,016
Loc: New England, USA
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7777531 - 12/19/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: that is the way it is meant to be.
Good sheepie.
if it makes me a sheep to believe that nature got it right the first time.. who is my shepherd?
-------------------- I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: igwna]
#7777535 - 12/19/07 12:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Our early ancestors were vegetarian. So is much of the rest of "nature".
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
igwna
The Cap'n


Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 8,016
Loc: New England, USA
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7777571 - 12/19/07 12:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
then why is our teeth design made for eating meat?
i'm led to believe that a lot of early man also ate meat.

can i see your sources that say all our ancestors ate only plants?
-------------------- I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
Edited by igwna (12/19/07 12:52 PM)
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7777623 - 12/19/07 01:07 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Which early ancestors? How far back are we talking here? Australopithecus? Well, there was one branch known as Australopithecus Robustus which ate mainly roots and tubers, but most evolutionary biologists consider them to have been an evolutionary dead end, and think that instead, Australopithecus Afarensis, which ate meat, was our direct ancestor. Now, going from there:
Homo Habilus -- ate meat Homo Erectus -- cooked meat (FIRE..GOOD!!!) Neanderthals -- diet was over 80% meat Homo Sapiens -- eventually raised their own livestock to eat
Now, if you intended to backwards in evolutionary time to before the first hominids, then we have apes. Our closest evolutionary relatives are the bonobo, which eats mainly fruit but also sometimes eats small vertebrates, and the common chimpanzee, which is omnivorous. Now, I'll grant that the Bonobo may be slightly closer to us genetically, but I don't think scientists have yet discovered the common ancestor we share with them, and can't really be certain what it ate. And of course, if we're going to go that far in determining our earliest ancestor, why not go all the way? Why not go back to the earliest mammals who were likely small insectivores? Or how about the first ambhibian to crawl out of the water? I guess we can all just go back to the first single-celled organism which ate simple carbon compounds. So that's it: No eating anything that's actually living. Just eat simple carbon compounds like our earliest ancestors.
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Silversoul]
#7777814 - 12/19/07 02:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
How far back are we talking here?
I was referring to our tree dwelling ancestors who ate a basically veggie diet. Personally as I have said I have nothing against meat eating. Go out and hunt something down if you want. I would prefer however if I don't get my meat from the torture camp no matter how inexpensive. My other point was you can be an great athlete and be a vegetarian.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7778013 - 12/19/07 02:56 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Our early ancestors were vegetarian
Bullshit. That is why so many spear points and arrow heads have been found from neolithic times. Our ancient ancestors(homosapiens)were omnivore hunter/gatherers. I guess lions, tigers, and bears also had vegan ancestors?
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7778182 - 12/19/07 03:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
part of the reason homo erectus used fire was to cook meat
|
JoseLibrado
return


Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 569
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
|
|
Using how the past collective human action was, to assume something to be correct, implies that you have no freedom to choose what the truth is. Because you measure how a thing should be done, by looking at what our ascestors figured it should be done.
An open question would be: Do you think then, under the logic that our anscestors ate meat, so we should eat meat, then if our anscestors murdered in the name of what they called GOD, we should do it too?
This belief that our teeth are somehow made for meat eating, and that our anscestors ate meat, seems like a final attempt to justify that it is ok to eat meat. And this is fine, i accept that you are making the best decision, likewise, but do you see that justifying something, by means of looking into the past, is denying your own capacity to make a decision, as a creator of reality?
-------------------- The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution. And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change. Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems. Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7778271 - 12/19/07 04:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
JoseLibrado said: Using how the past collective human action was, to assume something to be correct, implies that you have no freedom to choose what the truth is. Because you measure how a thing should be done, by looking at what our ascestors figured it should be done.
An open question would be: Do you think then, under the logic that our anscestors ate meat, so we should eat meat, then if our anscestors murdered in the name of what they called GOD, we should do it too?
This belief that our teeth are somehow made for meat eating, and that our anscestors ate meat, seems like a final attempt to justify that it is ok to eat meat. And this is fine, i accept that you are making the best decision, likewise, but do you see that justifying something, by means of looking into the past, is denying your own capacity to make a decision, as a creator of reality?
Awesome
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7778288 - 12/19/07 04:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I certainly don't claim that because our ancestors ate meat that we should as well. I just prefer to correct vegetarians who claim the contrary.
--------------------
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7778317 - 12/19/07 04:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Bullshit. That is why so many spear points and arrow heads have been found from neolithic times.
Prehistoric plants were much meaner and required a sharp point or blunt force trauma to subdue them.
--------------------
|
igwna
The Cap'n


Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 8,016
Loc: New England, USA
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7778340 - 12/19/07 04:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
JoseLibrado said: Using how the past collective human action was, to assume something to be correct, implies that you have no freedom to choose what the truth is. Because you measure how a thing should be done, by looking at what our ascestors figured it should be done.
An open question would be: Do you think then, under the logic that our anscestors ate meat, so we should eat meat, then if our anscestors murdered in the name of what they called GOD, we should do it too?
This belief that our teeth are somehow made for meat eating, and that our anscestors ate meat, seems like a final attempt to justify that it is ok to eat meat. And this is fine, i accept that you are making the best decision, likewise, but do you see that justifying something, by means of looking into the past, is denying your own capacity to make a decision, as a creator of reality?
Well put. However, I don't think you feel where I'm coming from here.
I wasn't trying to justify my meat eating becuase my ancestors ate meat. Hell, I don't need to justify it at all.
I see nothing wrong with eating meat. I eat meat to survive (I also prefer it in taste). I eat vegetables to survive as well. My ancestors, yes ate meat.
I said that it was "the way it was meant to be" and was called a 'sheepie.' Maybe that was a close-minded statement. However, I don't see the problem in surviving through meat eating. I should not be labeled a murderer just because I am an omnivore.
I do object to how cruelly our food is treated. However, this thread isn't about that, is it? I thought it was about (what seems to be a moral view on) whether or not to eat other animals.
-------------------- I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
|
igwna
The Cap'n


Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 8,016
Loc: New England, USA
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7778346 - 12/19/07 04:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Bullshit. That is why so many spear points and arrow heads have been found from neolithic times.
Prehistoric plants were much meaner and required a sharp point or blunt force trauma to subdue them.
-------------------- I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: igwna]
#7778362 - 12/19/07 04:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
However, I don't see the problem in surviving through meat eating. I should not be labeled a murderer just because I am an omnivore.
There's a HUGE difference between the fact the you personally don't consider that eating meat is a bad thing and stating that we are SUPPOSED to eat meat. In the first case you admit that eating meat belongs to personal choice and that others are free to make their own choice, whatever that might be. In the second case you make THIS logical fallacy.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
daytripper23
?


Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7778373 - 12/19/07 04:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
JoseLibrado said: This belief that our teeth are somehow made for meat eating, and that our anscestors ate meat, seems like a final attempt to justify that it is ok to eat meat. And this is fine, i accept that you are making the best decision, likewise, but do you see that justifying something, by means of looking into the past, is denying your own capacity to make a decision, as a creator of reality?
I don't think any meat eaters said they believed they were justified. Nobody mentioned justice, but now that you bring it up, are you implying that you are justifed in abstaining from meat? It seems to me you are. And not only you, I suspect many others are hinting at this as well.
I think its great that you, or anyone is compassionate. But this is all it is, it cant be put on a scale, or objectified. Seems to me that justice is an imposition on the situation.
If you want to say that meat eating is an injustice to the world, you have to offer a way of living that is justified; that is, completely and objectively ethical.
But on the other hand you want to say that abstaining from meat is compassionate, and we should all try to be this way, I would agree. If those videos at the beginning were attempts to shock people, Im down with that too. Make people aware of what they are supporting, but don't impose it like it should be law. Thats what I think.
|
symbiotic
insighted


Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 105
Loc: ok,nm,co,ca,or
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Veritas]
#7778402 - 12/19/07 04:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
All i can say is i hope everyone can practice what they preach.
-------------------- The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.
|
daytripper23
?


Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7778408 - 12/19/07 04:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
However, I don't see the problem in surviving through meat eating. I should not be labeled a murderer just because I am an omnivore.
There's a HUGE difference between the fact the you personally don't consider that eating meat is a bad thing and stating that we are SUPPOSED to eat meat. In the first case you admit that eating meat belongs to personal choice and that others are free to make their own choice, whatever that might be. In the second case you make THIS logical fallacy.
I think this is a misinterpretation of what he said
What he seems to be saying here, is do not impose your ideas of right and wrong upon my way of living. He isnt necessarily implying that he is good, only that he does not want to be labled as bad.
beyond good and evil...Natural
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7778412 - 12/19/07 04:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Would you prefer he make an illogical fallacy?
--------------------
|
igwna
The Cap'n


Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 8,016
Loc: New England, USA
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7778413 - 12/19/07 04:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
However, I don't see the problem in surviving through meat eating. I should not be labeled a murderer just because I am an omnivore.
There's a HUGE difference between the fact the you personally don't consider that eating meat is a bad thing and stating that we are SUPPOSED to eat meat. In the first case you admit that eating meat belongs to personal choice and that others are free to make their own choice, whatever that might be. In the second case you make THIS logical fallacy.
i never said the only right way to survive was to eat meat. thats just my choice.
its just my choice to follow the way thats always been, i like it more and feel that being thankful (and using to the best of its potential) to an animal for what has provided you does justify its death.
thats my way.
-------------------- I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
|
igwna
The Cap'n


Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 8,016
Loc: New England, USA
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: daytripper23]
#7778419 - 12/19/07 04:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
daytripper23 said:
Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
However, I don't see the problem in surviving through meat eating. I should not be labeled a murderer just because I am an omnivore.
There's a HUGE difference between the fact the you personally don't consider that eating meat is a bad thing and stating that we are SUPPOSED to eat meat. In the first case you admit that eating meat belongs to personal choice and that others are free to make their own choice, whatever that might be. In the second case you make THIS logical fallacy.
I think this is a misinterpretation of what he said
What he seems to be saying here, is do not impose your ideas of right and wrong upon my way of living. He isnt necessarily implying that he is good, only that he does not want to be labled as bad.
beyond good and evil...Natural
this sounds about right.. thank you daytripper for helping me to find the words i have misplaced.
-------------------- I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7778427 - 12/19/07 04:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Would you prefer he make an illogical fallacy?
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: daytripper23]
#7778437 - 12/19/07 04:59 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
daytripper23 said:
I think this is a misinterpretation of what he said
What he seems to be saying here, is do not impose your ideas of right and wrong upon my way of living. He isnt necessarily implying that he is good, only that he does not want to be labled as bad.
beyond good and evil...Natural
Yeah, did you get to follow that link? Incidentally it is called "Appeal to nature" Let's copy and paste a little shall we?
Quote:
Appeal to nature is a commonly seen logical fallacy consisting of a claim that something is good or right because it is natural, or that something is bad or wrong because it is unnatural. In this type of fallacy nature is often implied as an ideal or desired state of being, a state of how things were, should be, or are: in this sense an appeal to nature may resemble an appeal to tradition.
Hmmm
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
daytripper23
?


Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7778442 - 12/19/07 05:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
And what I am saying, is he didnt say that he was good or right.
|
daytripper23
?


Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7778450 - 12/19/07 05:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
And since you bring it up, are you implying that you are good or justified?
Im a vegetarian, but I dont take these attitudes.
|
igwna
The Cap'n


Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 8,016
Loc: New England, USA
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7778453 - 12/19/07 05:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
i don't think i like this anymore. i'm getting ganged up on because i like to eat meat 
i already said i don't agree with the amount of pain they are made to withstand and we should be thankful to the animals for the nourishment they supply. (feeling i really do... feel!)
so you know my standing, theres no hidden meaning behind it saying "THE OLD WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY" or "YOU SHOULDN'T NOT EAT MEAT."
I just don't see why it should be considered evil. Animals do it and so did we on instinct. i don't/wouldn't express anger towards an animal as i ate/killed it.
i apologizing for liking meat..
-------------------- I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: daytripper23]
#7778463 - 12/19/07 05:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
He said that this is how it's meant to be. Now, if I'm not mistaking, "meant" (in that given context) implies a certain degree of appreciation which has good-bad right-wrong scale.  i.e.: "Humans are meant to live in peace" = the right way to live is in peace.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
igwna
The Cap'n


Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 8,016
Loc: New England, USA
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7778471 - 12/19/07 05:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
though i never objected to people being vegetarians.
poor choice of words. sorry.
-------------------- I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: igwna]
#7778484 - 12/19/07 05:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
skcorrelyt said: i don't think i like this anymore. i'm getting ganged up on because i like to eat meat 
i already said i don't agree with the amount of pain they are made to withstand and we should be thankful to the animals for the nourishment they supply. (feeling i really do... feel!)
so you know my standing, theres no hidden meaning behind it saying "THE OLD WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY" or "YOU SHOULDN'T NOT EAT MEAT."
I just don't see why it should be considered evil. Animals do it and so did we on instinct. i don't/wouldn't express anger towards an animal as i ate/killed it.
i apologizing for liking meat..
I don't know what you mean by getting ganged?  I am not picking up on you, I am just pointing out towards a mistake that you made in expressing yourself. Which could be interpreted in the way that I showed earlier.
To both you and daytripper: I think it's important to point out these errors and set them straight if we want to have a precise and clear discussion. After all, this is one of the purposes of philosophy.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
daytripper23
?


Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7778488 - 12/19/07 05:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I see it as we are meant to live naturally, vs. unnaturally.
You dont necessarily have to see it as right vs wrong, or good vs. evil. Actually this is where many of the worlds problems arise.
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: daytripper23]
#7778515 - 12/19/07 05:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
And I never stated that right-wrong is more righteous than natural-unnatural (even though I must admit that I don't really agree with this kind of labeling either). I merely emphasized that what he did was a fallacy and that perhaps it's better if we avoided these kinds of confusions on the future. In a place where we use only words as means of expressing ourselves, it's imperative to try to become as accurate as possible in maneuvering those.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
daytripper23
?


Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7778544 - 12/19/07 05:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Appeal to nature is a commonly seen logical fallacy consisting of a claim that something is good or right because it is natural, or that something is bad or wrong because it is unnatural.
And yet again, Ill mention that nobody claimed they were good or right in this instance. What is considered natural precedes these kinds of notions..
Edited by daytripper23 (12/19/07 05:31 PM)
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: daytripper23]
#7778554 - 12/19/07 05:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
And I already said:
Quote:
He said that this is how it's meant to be. Now, if I'm not mistaking, "meant" (in that given context) implies a certain degree of appreciation which has good-bad right-wrong scale.  i.e.: "Humans are meant to live in peace" = the right way to live is in peace.
And then I also said:
Quote:
I think it's important to point out these errors and set them straight if we want to have a precise and clear discussion. After all, this is one of the purposes of philosophy.
So, all that being said, where do you wanna take this?
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
daytripper23
?


Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7778586 - 12/19/07 05:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Now, if I'm not mistaking, "meant" (in that given context) implies a certain degree of appreciation which has good-bad right-wrong scale. 
Your mistaken. This is not necessarily the case. And if you look up a few posts, I said that my understanding of what we are meant to do on earth, is to live naturally.
I already posted this too...
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: daytripper23]
#7778614 - 12/19/07 05:48 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Hmmm ok, one more shot: It is natural to make errors in expressing oneself, but I don't see anything wrong with correcting those errors by pointing towards them.  This is exactly what happened in this case. Now, can we get over it?
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
daytripper23
?


Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7778627 - 12/19/07 05:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
So where is this supposed error in expression?
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: daytripper23]
#7778666 - 12/19/07 05:59 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I've already pointed that out, I feel that it isn't necessary to do this again. I suggest that you re-read the last two or three pages of the thread and you will find the answer to your question. I have no interest in prolonging this particular discussion any further as it doesn't have a point anymore. Now, if you excuse me
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
JoseLibrado
return


Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 569
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7778690 - 12/19/07 06:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Skyycorr. i understand what you are saying and dattripper too.
To skycorr.
I notice that you think that saying thank you for the animals for their sacrifice feels good and i cannot say it is not.
But do you honestly think that they have sacrificed anything?
And would you accept someones thank you who is responsible, in a collective sense, for having your head into water that is beyond 300 degrees?
Especially knowing that eating you, was not nessecary to the point where it was either eat or die.
Day tripper, someone did mention that they thought it was ok to eat animals, because of the shape of their teeth. This is something natural and it was used to justify it was ok to eat meat.
I didnt mean justify in the worldly sense, but rather in the delibaritve sense. Whereas, when you are choosing between two or more things, you follow base values, such as not wanting to bring pain to others, and balance out other variables such as having teeth that seem to reflect that eat meating is natural, making it ok to bring pain to another animal.
-------------------- The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution. And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change. Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems. Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....
|
Funkatron9000
Astronaut



Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 535
Loc: Sector Zed: Region 6: Sol...
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7778796 - 12/19/07 06:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
LOL, OK I'm sorry but I just stumbled on this post..... and i have to say. COMMON guys and girls, I mean... If you don't want to eat meat then thats fine. but it's not a question of it being right or wrong.
lol, If we don't.... then all the other predators out there will get all the good food 
Really A better question would be "Are humans actually omnivores?"
And the fact IS that tooth structure has a lot to do with what you have evolved to eat. In this case (in regards to humans) we have evolved to eat a VERY wide variety of things... yes, including meat but also A LOT of other stuff. we have it good, you want a salad? well you have teeth for that. you want steak? thats great, you have teeth for that too.
Anyway I just wanted to drop a line in this thread because it just seemed funny.
-------------------- You cannot yet touch my daughters awesome boobage
You must fight to the death in the Breastriary of Nippopolis.
I thought Gene Wilder was cool BEFORE he was dead.
|
daytripper23
?


Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7778836 - 12/19/07 06:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
If someone said it was ok to eat meat, I would agree.
If someone said you have a right to eat meat, or conversely, you dont have a right to eat meat, it would be a different thing.
Ok is permissive right? it could apply to god, or justice, as in it is ok deemed by these systems. Or it could apply to which precedes this, nature.
Nature has its own set of consequences, that we must act in accordance to. "OK" in this sense, would be in permission of the forces of nature which compel us to act a certain way. Nature is necessarily something we are subject to, unlike unreliable concepts of justice and god.
Basically Im talking about real consequences. Real things like cancer, and toxic build up, which the vegetarians in this thread have made a pretty decent case for. These are real consequences which compel us to act a certain way. Basically the only thing OK necessarily applies to, is our relationship with nature. Our over all well being.
But the omnivores, on the other hand are arguably ok as well. Say what these vegetarians say is true, and we get an extra 10 years to our lives or something if we don't eat meat. whether this is proven or not, meat is not so detrimental to ones health that it makes us something i would consider not ok, in this sense.
Edited by daytripper23 (12/19/07 06:50 PM)
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Funkatron9000]
#7778894 - 12/19/07 06:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Really A better question would be "Are humans actually omnivores?"
Good. 
Hmmm, well I guess that we ARE. We are because of the overwhelming number of people which... are omnivores.  Now, you can't really fight with reality.  Your question is a good one, but I don't really think that it's totally righteous. Or to be more exact, a yes or no answer would not be entirely satisfying, because it would imply a pre-set design. And then one would ask well but who's the designer  If it is to be any designer, then it is ourselves. We design ourselves according to our needs and preferences (which might as well change, and which life has proved as changing). So we really are omnivores in the measure that we choose to be. A good evidence of the fact that our teeth adapt to our needs and not the other way around is the fact that our dental structure shows signs of changing. Our jaws are getting smaller because we don't do as much chewing as we did in the past so in more and more cases the wisdom tooth practically has not much room to grow anymore.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7779605 - 12/19/07 09:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Considering that our nearest relatives are the great apes and not only are they omnivores, but also sometimes cannibals, I think we're in the clear diet wise. If you want to stay natural, eat raw meats. More nutrition, and supposedly much better for digestion.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7779686 - 12/19/07 09:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Now, you can't really fight with reality.
Unless you are a fundamentalist.
--------------------
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7779704 - 12/19/07 09:48 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Ohhh they don't fight reality either, they just ignore it
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7779724 - 12/19/07 09:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Death to the infidel!
--------------------
|
opensaysme
Be Here Now



Registered: 07/15/07
Posts: 1,649
Loc: NJ-NY area
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7779731 - 12/19/07 10:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
yes i think it's good to eat other animals
i particularly enjoy beef, from cattle that have been killed in a slaughterhouse.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: igwna]
#7779751 - 12/19/07 10:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
i don't agree with the amount of pain they are made to withstand
I dunno about this. My ex used to eat me all the time and it didn't hurt a bit.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: opensaysme]
#7779758 - 12/19/07 10:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
There is nothing wrong with Soylent Pink.
--------------------
|
JoseLibrado
return


Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 569
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7780730 - 12/20/07 08:22 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Frock AND Shrooming: Have you even watched the videos? Do you see the amount of pain and suffering caused on these animals?
Do you know that you are responsible for this, 100% and without you this process would look more like the last video.
You come here with your views, but you do not even read the posts or go through the main posts.
I was not saying meat is bad to eat, im not touchy, i just cant put a pigs head in scolding 400 degrees water, just so i can get cheap meat. YOu Either can, which i sincerily doubt or you didnt watch the videos. I just dont see how you wouldnt be able to see putting a thing that feels pain just like us, through that and not call it cruel.
On top of that it is unnessecary, organic farms do not treat the animals any where near as horrible as the slaughter houses. Its much healthier as well.
No one is up tight, loose, everyone does what they think is best.
And NO you do not NEED to eat meat to survive. In actuality, eating meat WILL cut your life short, especially eating meat that is grown in those farms.
I guesse that i just dont see how we differ in feeling pain, the animals and us. Scolind hot water, broken legs and feet all feel horrible no matter your genetic make up.
I sincerly doubt you would do that to an animal so OFTEN, to eat meat, when you only really have to eat it about once every two weeks.
Since ive been a vegetarian, i havent gotten sick either, i just eat some beautiful organic chicken or wild fish every two weeks and i a feel great.
I suggest you ask yourself if you would be able to do what you did to the pigs in the first video and realize that the other animals are treated no differently, asking if you could take them from their mothers, isolate them in a cage where they cannot move or interact with other mammals, then put them face first in scolding hot water, watching them squirm then slicing them up and eating it....
I
-------------------- The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution. And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change. Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems. Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7780737 - 12/20/07 08:26 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Each animal has exactly one death and death is rarely without suffering.
--------------------
|
JoseLibrado
return


Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 569
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7780795 - 12/20/07 08:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Every animal has one death, true. YOu do to.
Would you rather die with people who you have loved all your life, around you in comfortable setting, or with your face in scolding hot water?
-------------------- The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution. And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change. Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems. Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7780884 - 12/20/07 09:18 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
Quote:
Our early ancestors were vegetarian
Bullshit. That is why so many spear points and arrow heads have been found from neolithic times. Our ancient ancestors(homosapiens)were omnivore hunter/gatherers. I guess lions, tigers, and bears also had vegan ancestors?
So monkeys in the trees used arrowheads. (I stated these were our early ancestors I was referring to or have you become a creationist) This is one of your best statements ever. Old age is getting to you early.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7780890 - 12/20/07 09:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
JoseLibrado said: Using how the past collective human action was, to assume something to be correct, implies that you have no freedom to choose what the truth is. Because you measure how a thing should be done, by looking at what our ascestors figured it should be done.
An open question would be: Do you think then, under the logic that our anscestors ate meat, so we should eat meat, then if our anscestors murdered in the name of what they called GOD, we should do it too?
This belief that our teeth are somehow made for meat eating, and that our anscestors ate meat, seems like a final attempt to justify that it is ok to eat meat. And this is fine, i accept that you are making the best decision, likewise, but do you see that justifying something, by means of looking into the past, is denying your own capacity to make a decision, as a creator of reality?
Good points.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7780917 - 12/20/07 09:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Each animal has exactly one death and death is rarely without suffering.
So your logical and reasonable position is that veal experiences the same about of suffering by being put in a pen were they cannot turn around or walk or have interaction with their own kind or have a change of scenery and do something active for their whole life and they must shit where they stand and they they are yanked off to the killing floor is pretty much the same as the momentary experience of being brought down in the wild by a predator.
Sure I can see that.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7781072 - 12/20/07 10:39 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Each animal has exactly one death and death is rarely without suffering.
So your logical and reasonable position is that veal experiences the same about of suffering by being put in a pen were they cannot turn around or walk or have interaction with their own kind or have a change of scenery and do something active for their whole life and they must shit where they stand and they they are yanked off to the killing floor is pretty much the same as the momentary experience of being brought down in the wild by a predator.
Sure I can see that.
Huh? My statement was complete and standalone. The rest was stuff you just made up. I expect better from you.
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7781087 - 12/20/07 10:45 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I expect better from you.
Gee mommy, I don't from you.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7781160 - 12/20/07 11:07 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
It's not if, or if not we eat meat or if eating meat is good or bad, it's about how we eventually rise and then kill and prepare the animal. In a larger sense, that is true for plants too. At least, that's as I see the 'problem'.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7781176 - 12/20/07 11:13 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: It's not if, or if not we eat meat or if eating meat is good or bad, it's about how we eventually rise and then kill and prepare the animal. In a larger sense, that is true for plants too. At least, that's as I see the 'problem'.
As do I.
Also that eating meat is a choice and not a necessity.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7781201 - 12/20/07 11:17 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Here's a question: Why does suffering matter? You use it to battle against more naturalistic arguements, siting their obvious lack of logical grounds, yet suffering is such an intangible, and some would argue a necessary thing. (Buddhists: Life is Suffering) So then, what logical grounds can you make against animals being subjected to suffering?
|
daytripper23
?


Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7781307 - 12/20/07 11:51 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
So Im assuming that your assumed righteousness comes from the US government? Or God? Then let me ask, what are you doing on a psychedelic mushroom site?
Havent you figured out that what the government, what society, what religion says is right or wrong(it goes both ways by the way) is not necessarily truth?
And another thing, don't tell me you think the money you spend just disappears. What you spend your money on, you support indirectly.
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7781309 - 12/20/07 11:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I didn't watch the videos, but I have seen plenty of them from PETA in the past. Maybe its my love of meat, maybe not. I have always said that when I die I want it to be as painful as possible, because I want to experience it. How much more cruel would it be to sequester these animals to some field (or even the earth itself) only to have them spend their days chewing cud until they eventually die?
Thats what the animals get for allowing themselves to be enslaved. If they really cared and were aware of their suffering, they could easily revolt, there are far more of them than us.
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: daytripper23]
#7781318 - 12/20/07 11:53 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
What what?
This is nothing to do with vegetarianism, get a break dude.
|
opensaysme
Be Here Now



Registered: 07/15/07
Posts: 1,649
Loc: NJ-NY area
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7781333 - 12/20/07 11:58 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
well then your argument should not be is it alright to eat other animals, it should be is it alright to support the inhumane slaughter of animals by eating the final product.
what about the kobe beef i love so much? those cattle get to drink beer and get massages daily.... not too bad in my book.
Edited by opensaysme (12/20/07 12:00 PM)
|
daytripper23
?


Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7781337 - 12/20/07 11:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Im not particularly against meat eating. If you didnt notice, I spent about 3 pages of this thread defending the stance actually. Take a look.
I am equally opposed to anyone who says "you have the right" to eat meat, as I am opposed to someone who says "you dont have the right to eat meat." I am arguing against the false sense of self-righteousness, on whichever side of this debate.
|
opensaysme
Be Here Now



Registered: 07/15/07
Posts: 1,649
Loc: NJ-NY area
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: daytripper23]
#7781341 - 12/20/07 12:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
cool, i hear that
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: daytripper23]
#7781351 - 12/20/07 12:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Ah, ok, that makes sense now.
|
opensaysme
Be Here Now



Registered: 07/15/07
Posts: 1,649
Loc: NJ-NY area
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7781415 - 12/20/07 12:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
i love eating a fat porterhouse steak fresh from the butcher when im in the midst of a trip.
|
JoseLibrado
return


Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 569
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7781450 - 12/20/07 12:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
"Here's a question: Why does suffering matter?"
Fun question.
In relation to others and suffering, just like in reltation to myself, i consider myself to be a person who does not feel good when i cause another to suffer. It is no different than the way i view myself in relation to my surroundings and the things i do and dont do.
You must be different in some way and i would like to hear what you have to say...because this above statement of belief, tells me that if someone you know and are close to, had broken leg and were standing in front of yourself with the capability to help them, you would just leave them there and tell them that pain is nessecary for pleasure, only?
To this i cannot relate to, i do not consider myself of this truth, but i cannot say it is wrong or right, rather that we differ in prespectives and if it is true, i would like to hear why.
"Thats what the animals get for allowing themselves to be enslaved. If they really cared and were aware of their suffering, they could easily revolt, there are far more of them than us. "
They didnt choose to be enslaved, we simply saw we had the power to enslave them, and cause them to reproduce, the cows you eat have no knowledge of anything else other than the place they are in.
I do have this knowledge of what other types of experiences, they can have and i believe myself to be a person who would offer this to them. (look at organic farming.)
Shroomin. "Whatever people do is their thing and it has NOTHING at all to do with me eating meat"
Without people to buy meat from them, these companies would stop treating animals this way and switch over to Organic, methods. (see the last video, if you do not want to watch the others). If you watched the videos and read the threads posts, you would have been up to date on this. You may wish to do that more often, because remarks like these usually reduce peoples motivation to have a discussion with you. And im sure you dont care, but if you prefer to discuss things with us all here, i think this makes sense to do.
Peace
-------------------- The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution. And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change. Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems. Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7781551 - 12/20/07 12:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I am not one that takes pleasure in suffering, but rather one who realizes the impossibility of not suffering.
Every day you wake up, presumably in some industrialized country. You get out of bed. Think of the ramifications of that. You had a bed to get out of. Think of how many living, breathing, suffering human beings cannot say that. Also, consider the nature of your bed, where are the sheets made? The mattress? The frame? The carpet beneath it? How many were made by "sufferers"? How many of the articles of clothing you wear every day come from Vietnam, Cambodia, or China, made by the hands of children, who if they are lucky have a lifespan of about 15, not much more than the average cow. These people do not have the luxury of standing quietly in a box.
Now, you get out of bed, hopefully ashamed of yourself because of all this suffering, and get in the shower. The water that hits your body is another luxury. You pour gallons on yourself, while other people around the world die of thirst or are forced to drink toxic water just to survive. The heat that the water has is also a luxury. Odds are you either have Oil or Natural Gas heat. Nations in Africa and the Middle east are ruled by tyrants who, with the help of fossil fuel revenue, rule over the huddled masses, erecting with gleaming pillars of their wealth while children beg in the streets to feed their families a meager meal of bread and water. So often these children are stolen and sold into slavery, sexual or otherwise.
I don't even want to get into what happens when you get into an automobile and eat your meals of the day, think of the hundreds of thousands of people who suffer at your expense? Hell, you even have the luxury of using a computer. Think of how much you care about that. Would you stop indirectly supporting all that because of the immeasurable suffering it causes?
If you want to be a vegan, fine, do it, by all means. However, don't tell me that I don't understand the suffering I cause by eating meat, because when it really boils down to it, suffering happens, and it doesn't matter whether your eating beef or driving a car, you are contributing to it. End the self righteous bullshit, and be vegan for the same reason you do everything else, because it makes you feel good.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7781589 - 12/20/07 01:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said: Here's a question: Why does suffering matter? You use it to battle against more naturalistic arguements, siting their obvious lack of logical grounds, yet suffering is such an intangible, and some would argue a necessary thing. (Buddhists: Life is Suffering) So then, what logical grounds can you make against animals being subjected to suffering?
OK then if I subject you to a life of suffering in prison or torture camp then I'm sure you will say "hey this suffering is necessary and I see no need for it to end"
Talk about lack of empathy. And understanding. While suffering is part of existence I see no need for purposely causing it. Unless you are you of course.
However I do agree with your other points. We do cause suffering. Some of it is necessary and much of it is not. I have made a point of limiting my involvement in a lot of it. Of course I'm still guilty of some. So what do I do? Well I try to change because I don't like needless suffering and I do the best I am able. I tackle the easier things first. Not eating meat is easy and its a source of tremendous suffering IMO. If we just go along then nothing changes. Is this stance hypocritical? Yes, somewhat, you can always find something I am remiss in.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/20/07 01:09 PM)
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7781591 - 12/20/07 01:03 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Did you read my above post? If you really care about suffering you probably have some explaining to do.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7781617 - 12/20/07 01:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Did you read the whole post?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/20/07 01:10 PM)
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7781660 - 12/20/07 01:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Oops, apparently not, must have caught it pre-edit.
I can agree that not eating meat may absolve one from causing some measure of suffering, I just see it as a drop in the bucket honestly. You must remember also that farming is a source of income for many people, and without making money from it they too would suffer. Not all land can be planted on, some places must take advantage of raising livestock in order to make a living from the land (See: Central Austrailia and Africa)
If there is any issue to eating meat, I think it lies mainly in the method of production. I do eat organics a good portion of the time, but I don't really do it for a moral reason, organic food normally tastes somewhat better. I am a strong believer in the free market, if people demand organics instead of cheap agribusiness methods, so be it, but I don't see that battle as having anything to do at all with the actual act of eating meat (Or any lack of empathy or understanding on my part, that much was just unwarranted and unnecessary)
Edited by xFrockx (12/20/07 01:24 PM)
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7781692 - 12/20/07 01:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Farmers can choose how to grow and treat their animals. I came from farm stock in Michigan. My Grandpa was a farmer, county agent and seed salesman. A more closed minded guy would be hard to find. He really knew very little about what made soil healthy. He was a fool in the service of the pesticide and fertilizer guys. He never thought for himself yet was considered a smart guy by all the other farmers.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7781735 - 12/20/07 01:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
They can choose, yes, just as the customers will choose to buy or not. The sad fact is, most people in this country rely on cheap meat for protein. This means that farmers must bring the prices down on their produce, so as a result, they need to use methods that use bulk and work efficiently. Its not really their fault people want things so cheaply, nor is it really the people's fault that they don't have the money for more expensive organic food.
I'm not arguing so much that eating meat is "good" but rather, eating meat is a choice, and one which has absolutely no moral grounds one way or the other. To say that it does would imply that one could somehow measure the suffering "matrix" and decide what suffering means more, the animals, or the farmers and customers? We can never do that, so we simply cannot argue our eating decisions on any moral ground, hence my sentiment, "do it because it makes you feel good."
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7781736 - 12/20/07 01:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said: Here's a question: Why does suffering matter? You use it to battle against more naturalistic arguements, siting their obvious lack of logical grounds, yet suffering is such an intangible, and some would argue a necessary thing. (Buddhists: Life is Suffering) So then, what logical grounds can you make against animals being subjected to suffering?
Because all li(/o)f(/v)e strives for non-suffering aka happiness.
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7781746 - 12/20/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
If striving for non suffering was a characteristic of life, then that would imply that life could never overcome suffering, because its characteristic would require it to struggle against it. Nice logic.
Edited by xFrockx (12/20/07 01:42 PM)
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7781883 - 12/20/07 02:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Hmm, no, I don't mean it in a simply circular way. Life is to extend its life into existence. That is done most easily and efficiently in a non-suffering way. If then, just eat happy cows
|
JoseLibrado
return


Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 569
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7781917 - 12/20/07 02:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Frock. I said. To this i cannot relate to, i do not consider myself of this truth, but i cannot say it is wrong or right, rather that we differ in prespectives and if it is true, i would like to hear why."
Then you say "End the self righteous bullshit, and be vegan for the same reason you do everything else, because it makes you feel good. "
Like icelander, i do what is within my ability to stop any nessecary suffering and have not once said that suffering is unnessecary, but rather i think now, it is just a tool to motivate doing something haha.
i think you have to stop being self-rightous towards people who you think are being self-rightous because i see your anger in words like bull shit and it may be causing you to misread what i am saying.
note the above example.
I ask you to watch the first video and answere the following question: Would you do that to the pigs, for food, or would you do something that is more like organic farming methods?
I ask this because you said you do not get pleasure from causing pain, so i assume that you would prefer, when possible, to give pleasure instead of pain.
PEace and love
YOu are not reading it correctly or misunderstood what i mean by saying i cannot say that it is wrong or right.
-------------------- The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution. And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change. Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems. Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7782017 - 12/20/07 03:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I think you may be mistaken in believing I am self righteous in my denouncement of others perceived righteousness. I do not champion killing animals, in fact, this is far from true. I suppose I could be self righteous in my endorsement of personal choice free of moral constraints, perhaps, but I don't think thats necessarily a bad thing.
As for the "bullshit" I will not censor myself, but you must realize that I do not mean such language to constitute an ad-hominem attack. I was using "bullshit" to refer to the sum of the beliefs that constitute one who is morally vegan. I like how you can "see my anger" though, thats really cute. (Did you see it there too?)
"i do what is within my ability to stop any nessecary suffering "
How can you know that what you are doing to "stop" suffering will not cause more suffering to some other entity? There is no way to tell, unless you develop some sort of morality-o-meter and omniscience.
"I ask you to watch the first video and answer the following question: Would you do that to the pigs, for food, or would you do something that is more like organic farming methods?"
I have slow internet while not at college, so I will not watch the video. Trust me though, I've seen them before, cows being hung by their legs and put on a conveyor across a factory where they are killed and carved, the whole bit. You must trust that I do know the ramifications of such methods.
To answer your question, honestly, I cannot give one answer. Around where I live people are generally fairly poor. If they want to eat meat, they need to get it cheaply. So, if I were to farm around here, I'd expect that I'd need to produce cheap beef to sell it locally. It always sounds nice to think that everyone can afford organically grown things, but this just isn't the case, and here there are very few organic markets (I think the closest one is in Pittsburgh, and thats the smallest city with one around here) As a matter of necessity I would raise livestock in the most efficient way I could. Now, this doesn't necessarily mean box feeding and the ilk, but if I could not support myself or my family without such methods, then I would have very little problem with it.
"I ask this because you said you do not get pleasure from causing pain, so i assume that you would prefer, when possible, to give pleasure instead of pain."
This issue is not that clear cut. I wish it was, but it simply is not. What suffering you take from the animals may ultimately cause something or someone else suffering somewhere down the line. You cannot measure suffering, so there is no way to speak of which is the lesser evil.
To sum this all up(in general, not just in reply to you), do I think its good to eat other animals? No. Do I think its bad to eat other animals? No. It is neither, and to say anything otherwise would imply that you truly know the full consequences of either. You will not and cannot. While you are certainly free to use your own sense of morality in deciding your diet, I certianly don't owe you any respect for doing so, its your intangible decision. Likewise, you don't owe me any respect for my diet choices either.It is a choice, nothing more, and one which is completely up to the eater to make, and there is no outside spin that could ever logically be used to sway them.
Edited by xFrockx (12/20/07 03:13 PM)
|
JoseLibrado
return


Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 569
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7782093 - 12/20/07 03:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
"How can you know that what you are doing to "stop" suffering will not cause more suffering to some other entity?"
Are you referring to a universal scale of measure. If so, i didnt draw any mention towards it.
the first video shows pigs lined up on a conveyor belt, where they are being put head first into what seems to be water that is beyond 300 degrees, until they die.
HOLY FRUCK!!! HAHAHA. "You cannot measure suffering, so there is no way to speak of which is the lesser evil."
Ok. I know, never did.
Im not sure what you mean " like how you can "see my anger" though, thats really cute. (Did you see it there too?)"
I was just noticing that you are acting in no different way than people who believe without certainty that they are right when they think another is wrong, without concern for the fact that other person believes what they believe, in the same way as you.
I was just mentioning that for the sake of talking to people about being self-rightous, saying "bullshit" to them, as a reference to their belief, will cause them to go off, ending any attempt to free their mind from an ideaological enslavement.
I think organic is even better economically: Farms would be given back to manual labour sector.Consider how much mechanized tools are used in industrial as opposed to traditional farming methods. Although i do know that organic agriculture tends to be traditional farming, with a family tending to the farm,there are those which are not.
I support the traditional.
Industrial farms also cause plenty of disease because of the chemical usage in the animals; whats more is that industrial farming, is creating for 'super bacterias' that are becoming ever more dangerous, as we speak, due to the over use of antibiotics. I remember being in environmental studies 260, watching this lady from agriculture canada show us that meat eaters waste on average 10 times the resources that vegetarians do.
I openly try to endorse meat eating, because i think the outcomes of these practices cause enough suffering to warrant effort, to whatever extend i deem nessecary. I am NOT saying i am GOOD or BAD to do this.
"How can you know that what you are doing to "stop" suffering will not cause more suffering to some other entity?"
I guesse your question is implying the truth that because i dont know exactly how much suffering it causes, i shouldt do anything.
I do know I am right about the amount of suffering, as much as this ability to see, allows me to be.
-------------------- The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution. And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change. Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems. Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7782609 - 12/20/07 06:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
So monkeys in the trees used arrowheads
No, but many are omnivores like humans, and monkeys eat meat.
Quote:
chimpanzees have been recorded to eat more than 35 types of vertebrate animals (Uehara 1997), the most important vertebrate prey species in their diet is the red colobus monkey. At Gombe, red colobus account for more than 80% of the prey items eaten.
http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~stanford/chimphunt.html
There is hope for your argument yet Ice, because surely the single celled organisms we descended from ate algae or plankton...lol.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7782613 - 12/20/07 06:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Even some of the smaller primates eat insects, which is not exactly a vegan diet. I can't think of any primate which exclusively vegan or vegetarian.
--------------------
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Silversoul]
#7782635 - 12/20/07 06:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Even termites and ants should be guaranteed rights if we are handing them out to the animal kingdom. To propose that veganism is moral due to the fact that it is some sort of standard in nature is logically flawed as nature evolved each organism to eat what guaranteed survival for it until it reproduced. More and more I feel that vegan is a political party instead of a preference, and I care little for politics or morals. I am worried about the most efficient and practical means to meet a goal.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
daytripper23
?


Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7784103 - 12/21/07 12:04 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Practicality...
Yea lets face it vegetarianism/vegan-ism is a line, and the world is wiggly. Like any line, it can only be lived as an ideal, because where we draw this line (vegetarians, vegans, omnivores, and carnivores) is in the end based on an issue of personal practicality.
Most of us have an ideal that we will not kill/hurt other humans, but if someone comes at you with a knife, are you gonna follow through with this policy? Even in human ethics, its not as simple as right vs wrong.
I think it would help us on many levels to collectively get this idea of the sacred and absolute right to life out of our head. It is turned into the ultimate trump card that in the end distorts reality.
An attack on vegetarianism because it cannot draw a realistically definitive line is not an attack on vegetarianism, but lines themselves. So of course this does not justify any kind of alternative.
But there is nothing more wrong with personally trying to be a vegetarian, because humans are sentimental, and so will not, and cannot realistically live strictly in terms of such a line. But it doesnt translate objectively, because living in terms of an ideal is not purely logical; in other words, this doesnt translate as an agenda.
Just to warn you all the rest of this post is political, but I think it further demonstrates the same point.
"Isms" seem to arise out of a poor understanding of relativity. terror(ism): We believe that the Government is looking after every single one of our sacred and absolute lives, in no way compromising our safety, whhich would be simply abominable. But it turns out, even in law and government, where our rights are explicit, the "sacred" human life is actually a matter of practicality:
Take a look at this Automobile Deaths in USA by year Around 42,000 in the USA alone are killed in motor vehicle related accidents.
Now imagine if instead of having the current speed limits, they were nationally lowered everywhere, to 30 miles per hour. Imagine how many lives this would save! But this isn't done, ultimately because an issue of human practicality. It would take twice as long to get places...
Then take a look at this International Terrorism Statistics - Johnston Archive In the entire world in between the years 1968 and 2005, if you add up the deaths, there still aren't as many deaths than automobile deaths in USA, in one year, 2005.
But in this case the government decides to put its foot down. It starts the war on terrorism, and pisses all over the the bill of rights, in an effort that can't be proved as working at all.
What would be easier, our war on terrorism, or lowering the speed limit to 30 miles per hour? And which would actually save more lives?
The best part is, that this war on terrorism, which arises out of our attachment to a definitive "right" to life, is basically translated into a clear attack on the bill of rights.
The problem is, we have lost sight of practicality, in our hopes to live definitively, protected and caged by our lines.
Note: Ive looked everywhere for a government issued terrorism statistic, but could not find a source at the USA.gov I wish I could find a more reliable source to quote for deaths by terrorism. This is the one thing we civilians should see, in regards to the war on terror, but I cant find an official source anywhere. Maybe someone could find a better source?
Edited by daytripper23 (12/21/07 12:29 AM)
|
symbiotic
insighted


Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 105
Loc: ok,nm,co,ca,or
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: daytripper23]
#7784295 - 12/21/07 01:53 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
As far as efficiency, veganism is by far more efficient. The ratio of the amount of food that goes into an animal vs. the amount of food the animal produces is stupid doo doo dumb. Animals eat about 80% of U$ grain production, and 85% of U$ agriculture land is used to produce animal food. If animals ate grass and shit like they should...what could we do with all that extra food? I dunno, maybe someone could shout out an answer?
Note: Ive looked everywhere for a government issued terrorism statistic, but could not find a source at the USA.gov I wish I could find a more reliable source to quote for deaths by terrorism. This is the one thing we civilians should see, in regards to the war on terror, but I cant find an official source anywhere. Maybe someone could find a better source?
That made me laugh a little.
"Tell me president tell me if you will. How many people does a smart bomb kill? How many of 'em do you think we got? The general says we never miss a shot. And we never ever ever keep a body count. We killin' so efficiently we can't keep count. In the Afghan hills, the rebels still fightin'. Opium fields keep on providin' the best heroin that money can buy and nobody knows where Osama been hidin'. The press conferences keep on lyin' like we don't know."
"The war for oil is a war for the beast, the war on terror is a war on peace." Spearhead track light up ya lighta album yellfire
-------------------- The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.
|
symbiotic
insighted


Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 105
Loc: ok,nm,co,ca,or
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: symbiotic]
#7784306 - 12/21/07 01:58 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Almost forgot, but didn't...According to Lyman, in ‘Mad Cowboy’, “... an acre of fertile land can produce forty thousand pounds of potatoes, thirty thousand pounds of carrots, fifty thousand pounds of tomatoes, or two hundred fifty pounds of beef ... “. Land used to produce food for animals could otherwise remain wild, in the form of for example natural forests, which with its wide diversity of species would help contribute to a more sustainable environment.
-------------------- The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: symbiotic]
#7784559 - 12/21/07 05:08 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
As far as efficiency, veganism is by far more efficient.
My whole point was not about ultimate efficiency of the human race, which I cannot determine. I am talking about the most efficient means for ME to meet a goal. I do think that there are many health aspects of the vegan diet that are extremely good. One problem that I have had in the past (not now) and which people in our culture now seem to suffer from is that they tend to eat too little raw and whole foods due to the influx of processed foods...both vegetable and meat based. I think raw and cooked vegetables and fruits are of crucial importance to the diet...even more so than meat. I do not deny that vegans as a group tend to be healthier, but this is in great part due to the fact that more vegans are conscious in their eating habits than the majority of people are. I do feel that anyone who is conscious and informed in their diet choices can be healthy regardless of whether they eat meat or not. As for me, I live in an area where free range and organic food is at a premium price due to scarcity. During a recent trip to Oregon I noted that organic foods tend to be cheaper than where I live due to their popularity. So, free range meats are not really even an option. I also am rebuilding my body after years of catastrophic weight problems. I have recently lost a lot of weight and I am now using weight training to rebuild lost muscle tissue to maximize my metabolism. I must have an easily accessible and affordable protein source. To try to replace this with vegan sources would be more expensive and time consuming (due to planning). I also have serious doubts as to if I could get 150 to 200 grams of protein a day from a plant source in a pleasant and healthy manner. Even if I could does the effort and expense justify the result when eating meat is not a moral issue to me? Lean unprocessed meats are the most efficient means for me personally to absorb protein, though it must be said that the vast bulk of my diet is still mostly fruit, nut, and vegetable. This is what I mean by efficient. Now, when people want to take a jihadist view of meat eaters and equate veganism with ultimate truth or compassion they are merely deceiving themselves.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (12/21/07 08:43 AM)
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7784927 - 12/21/07 09:28 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
How can you know that what you are doing to "stop" suffering will not cause more suffering to some other entity? There is no way to tell, unless you develop some sort of morality-o-meter and omniscience.
Every human makes judgments,so you can't cop out that way. None of us know the ultimate results of our actions but we try to live up to our personal code of ethics. You do this also. You do your best and make a judgment/guess about what life means every time you make a decision. You can't avoid it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7784953 - 12/21/07 09:40 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: Even termites and ants should be guaranteed rights if we are handing them out to the animal kingdom. To propose that veganism is moral due to the fact that it is some sort of standard in nature is logically flawed as nature evolved each organism to eat what guaranteed survival for it until it reproduced. More and more I feel that vegan is a political party instead of a preference, and I care little for politics or morals. I am worried about the most efficient and practical means to meet a goal.
Well if the torture of animals helps you meet your self centered goals then good for you but IMO it says something important about your love life.
Vegetarian eating may not be for everyone but compassion aught to be IMO. If you feel that anything can be done to animals in the name of your rights and goal then what makes you different then someone who feels it's alright for humans to suffer so they can reach their goals? Like Nazi Germany for example.
Also knowing your economic situation I find it hard to believe you can't afford anything you choose as important in the area of food.
I say make your own choice about what is important but at least be clear about it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/21/07 09:42 AM)
|
kody260z
Stranger

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 72
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7785201 - 12/21/07 11:16 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I think it comes down to whether or not one personally believes that they'd like to reduce suffering. If so, it follows that they should do everything they *feasibly can* to prevent suffering, regardless of its form.
When you think about it, reducing or eliminating one's support for factory farms takes a relatively small amount of work compared to the positive outcome it provides. That's why I think the feasibility to outcome ratio of vegetarianism is quite high, and thus it is a great way one can make a significant difference in their personal strides to make the world a better, more peaceful place...for everyone.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: kody260z]
#7785224 - 12/21/07 11:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
And, one does not have to forgo eating meat to forgo the support of torture farming of animals.
"a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -Gandi
I agree with this as one way to judge our state of civilization.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/21/07 11:22 AM)
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7785234 - 12/21/07 11:22 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: And, one does not have to forgo eating meat to forgo the support of torture farming of animals.
Free range chicken FTW!
--------------------
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: kody260z]
#7785240 - 12/21/07 11:24 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
It seems to me that a great many "unsolvable" problems stem from the tendency to value efficiency and convenience over "touchy-feely" pursuits such as reducing suffering, showing compassion and utilizing resources in a sustainable manner.
Do we really believe that access to a cheap Big Mac is worth the destruction of the rain forests for grazing land and the torture of millions of cows? If we evaluated our lifestyle decisions on this basis, would we all be making the same choices? I hope not.
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7785485 - 12/21/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Well if the torture of animals helps you meet your self centered goals then good for you but IMO it says something important about your love life.
Reality flows out from the center. The center is the individual. Being self centered is the only way we can be. To pretend that one is centered elsewhere is self importance through false humility.
Quote:
I say make your own choice about what is important but at least be clear about it.
In what way am I not clear? I have made my choices and admitted them here. I have zero compunctions about consuming meat. My goals are THE most important thing to me. Can I not be more clear? I would prefer free range meat if it were available here, but it is mostly NOT available unless I drive 70 miles to get it. That choice would merely be a health choice, not a moral one. If you want to equate meat consumers with Nazis well go ahead. I will be such a Nazi. In any case I don't feel that you truly support your own talk. I know that you wear leather shoes, use mousetraps, and I would hazard to guess that you would not allow insects to nest in or around your home. How many articles of clothing do you have made from animal products? Do you happen to use wool? How many of the plant foods that you eat were farmed on land that was once environment for wild animals that were eliminated along with that environment? It seems to me the only "ethical" way to consume plants (by the standard you present here) would be to use only plant products gathered directly from nature. The increase of agricultural farmland is destroying the rainforest in South America. This contributes to global warming and the destruction of more environment leading to the extinction of more species. It is easy to ignore these factors in order to be right. You once criticized me for black and white judgments...
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (12/21/07 12:55 PM)
|
SunshineSuperman
Mad Hatter



Registered: 01/16/07
Posts: 415
Loc: Shangri La
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7785512 - 12/21/07 12:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I have been a vegetarian since I went to a slaughter house when I was 14. It makes my stomach turn just thinking about it.
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: SunshineSuperman]
#7785520 - 12/21/07 12:56 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
That is completely your choice and right. I applaud you for exercising it. I am not concerned with vegans, but with intolerance and elitism...
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7785542 - 12/21/07 01:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
You once criticized me for black and white judgments...
Where have I been black and white? You seem a little defensive about a debate.
I asked you what the difference was between your position and the one the Nazi's held. I did not equate meat consumers with Nazi's as you state, instead I equated the use of torture farming to meet ones goals with the use of torture to meet Nazi goals. I have not said eating meat was wrong. I also admitted that I don't always walk my talk in this area. So what's your point besides being defensive?
Again my opinion in this debate is that I am not against meat eating but am against the torture of animals to provide my meat when there are more humane ways of doing it. That seems a very logical step towards being the person I would like to be. However I realize I am in an imperfect culture and I myself am imperfect and so will not always walk my talk. This issue is important to me. It doesn't have to be for you but we are in a debate here and one I did not start I might add.
And what I meant by being clear is that you own the fact that animals are being tortured in your behalf. Some of your reasoning was not clear IMO as you stated "facts" about nutrition that are in doubt.
I am not concerned with being right here but in having a debate. I'm not defensive about this and I fully admit the truth of my stance as subjective and self serving toward the kind of world I would like to live in. And I haven't bought leather shoes in so long I can't remember. The fact that I use wool does not mean these animals were tortured for that wool as most sheep are free ranged around here. And I agree that the plants I eat come from land that was once wild. But I don't really see your point. I'm talking about the willing and needless inhuman conditions that we raise animals in for food. Like chickens with their beaks chopped off left for life in a cage they cannot move in until they die. I just don't want to be part of that and that's where a limit is reached for me. It isn't for you, OK, but I was debating about your statement that eating factory farmed meat was necessary to your goals. I say it isn't and you do it because it's easier for you and traditional as in a program you have adopted.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
symbiotic
insighted


Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 105
Loc: ok,nm,co,ca,or
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7785552 - 12/21/07 01:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
We have to redesign the way we design things. lol If you want to eat meat you can stop supporting the monopoly companies like McDonalds Quiznos Subway etc. and go to the local butcher or bagel shop wherever to buy local farm raised meat and it will make a huge impact. And don't forget, you can hunt and fish for yourself! In my humble opinion this is by far the most respectable method of obtaining meat. There are also enzyme, amino-acid, and vitamin supplements if you don't get enough fruits and veggies.
-------------------- The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.
|
daytripper23
?


Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: symbiotic]
#7785881 - 12/21/07 02:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Conscious and deliberate hunting is a predator-prey relationship. I dont think one could argue that many ways meat is "grown" in this country, is still this. It is one of the many unnaturalities that arises from technology.
Edited by daytripper23 (12/21/07 03:20 PM)
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7786421 - 12/21/07 05:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Well if the torture of animals helps you meet your self centered goals
How about someone who humanely raises and eventually butchers their own food animals in order to stay "off the grid" of industrial animal harvesting?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Visionary Tools



Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7786563 - 12/21/07 06:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Is eating animals bad? No, it's nature.
Is suffering animals go through so we can eat them, being bred in substandard, factory conditions, being slaughtered in a factory surrounded by death on all sides, is that good? No.
I'm omnivorous, because in weighing up the pros of meat (it tastes really, really nice, and apart from nuts, I can't effectively substitute it, not in terms of texture) with the negative aspects, I'd rather be with, than without.
--------------------
|
lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Diploid]
#7786586 - 12/21/07 06:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
what most people don't realize is that over time factory farmed animals will evolve to the conditions they live under as long as we continue to factory farm for thousands or millions of years
eventually you will be left with an animal that is able to thrive under those conditions
it is really no different than any catastrophic environmental event, except that instead of a volcano or a decrease in solar energy it is decisions made by humans that cause "change" in the animal's environment
the main reason i object to factory farmed meat is that i don't think its in our best interests when plant foods are more efficient in producing food
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
|
Considering that factory farm animals are intentionally bred by the farmers, I don't think there's going to be a whole lot of natural selection going on. But who knows? Maybe someday they'll evolve to overtake their captors. Anyone read Animal Farm?
--------------------
|
JoseLibrado
return


Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 569
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
|
|
"the main reason i object to factory farmed meat is that i don't think its in our best interests when plant foods are more efficient in producing food"
Although i do agree with the first part of your post, that we all eventually adapt to our surrounding and the pain we are to undertake. I believe that what you said above may contradict the first statement. The answere can be brought back to our own best interest in regards to the end goal of interest, which is to reduce suffering. If you claim that animals will eventually thrive in any environment, then following an interest will generate no greater benefit, than a loss. because if i have understood you correctly, you said that eventually they will thrive in any environment, which means to me that they are not missing out on being outdoors playing with other animals, because they have never experienced it, and you cannot experience missing out on something you dont experience.
It is in this that i fail to see what causes you to have any concern for our interests, if it exists within the same light of the previous thought.
I think a good measure of what would be best for the animal, would be to observe its behaviour after it is released from being constantly inside of a factory farm...will it return?
I sincerily doubt it would return to a cubicle with no fresh air and no contact with others and so i see that it is best for me, as expressing what reality seems to be, to not eat industrialized meats.
-------------------- The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution. And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change. Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems. Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....
|
lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Silversoul]
#7786623 - 12/21/07 06:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
i don't see the words "natural selection" anywhere in my post
i said the animals would evolve according to the conditions they live under, and that that is analogous to what happens naturally
|
lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7786699 - 12/21/07 06:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
the difference is the animals we farm have no choice
we have a choice
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
|
i don't see the words "natural selection" anywhere in my post
In order for animals to "evolve to the conditions they live under", natural selection must take place.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Diploid]
#7786809 - 12/21/07 07:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
lets say you own a kennel with 100 newborn pups
every day you monitor the number of times each dog barks or whines
at the end of each year (before the dogs can breed) you remove the 50 dogs that barked the most and breed the 50 that barked the least for a new batch of 100 newborn pups
over time you will develop a quiet breed of dog
the dogs "evolved to the conditions they live under" but it is not natural selection in my opinion
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
|
at the end of each year (before the dogs can breed) you remove the 50 dogs that barked the most
This costs money and doesn't drive the evolution of the herd toward greater productivity and lower costs, which is what farmers are after.
I think the point SS was making is that a farmer is not going to do this. A farmer is going to breed for greater yield and lower cost, not greater animal happiness.
In order for the animals to evolve to naturally better fit into the farming paradigm, NATURAL selection (read: the farmer doesn't interfere) must take place.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Diploid]
#7786999 - 12/21/07 08:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
i still disagree with the point
i mean look at pigs
if you are right and all farmers want is greater production, eventually the pig will lose nearly all its intelligence because intelligence is no longer necessary in a system where food appears regardless of how smart you are and the passing of genes is done only through artificial insemination
at some point the pig will have just enough brain power to eat, sleep and shit (plus automatic processes)
the same can be said about suffering because it is no longer a factor in who passes on their genes... anything that is not a factor in passing down genes eventually disappears
at the same time i am sure that these animals would evolve many new adaptations such as the ability to breathe air with large amounts of ammonia in it and resistance to disease
what you would be left with is a mindless blob of flesh attached to a feeding tube
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
|
eventually the pig will lose nearly all its intelligence because intelligence is no longer necessary in a system where food appears regardless of how smart you are
This is true, but only subtle changes occur in a human lifetime. For gross changes like you're describing to occur takes hundred of thousands of years... or more.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Diploid]
#7787035 - 12/21/07 08:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
at least that, maybe even millions of years
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
Quote:
what you would be left with is a mindless blob of flesh attached to a feeding tube
It might make a pretty good sandwich...
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl] 1
#7787621 - 12/21/07 11:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Mmmmmmm! Spam - the King of mystery meats.
--------------------
|
Psychoslut
The Mother Fucking Bear-o-dactyl

Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 20,917
Loc: all up in ya
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7787640 - 12/21/07 11:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
i dont worry about it much. 90% of the meat i eat is 100% organic and very free range. the animals that i eat pretty much have the greatest life they could possibly have all the way up untill i stick an arrow in it or toss some shot.
--------------------
[quote]KristiMidocean said: Good now thats clear.WHO FUCKING CARES. If I am fat u all keep pointing it out like its suppose to be a secret.LIke u really have nothing better to do then make fat jokes. If o know its like I do I know yall can come up with NEW AND BETTER SHIT . This shit is old and boring . I left in the first place cause this shit got boring not because of the fat jokes . Fat jokes dont bother me but seriously its old[/quote]
|
daytripper23
?


Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Psychoslut]
#7787940 - 12/22/07 02:39 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
eventually the pig will lose nearly all its intelligence because intelligence is no longer necessary in a system where food appears regardless of how smart you are
Im no biologist or scientist, but this question is really interesting to me.
Do animals actually get dumber, slower, less muscular, based purely on enviromental response?
Is there such thing as de-evolution? Less pronounced (x), or does adaptation, evolution necessarily move foward.
Maybe it would be hard to support or prove this either way though... Hope this isnt off topic.
Sure recession is proven to exist, but is it not always in favor, or relative to some other kind of trait?
Is pure de evolution possible?
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: daytripper23]
#7789658 - 12/22/07 04:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
This de-evolution scenario is unlikely to play out. Genetic traits are not 100% responsive to environment. The way natural selection works is that new organisms inherit genetic material from both parents. If the offspring survives to procreate, and especially if the procreation is at a greater rate or with greater viability than OTHER organisms, then the genetic traits possessed by the offspring have a chance at being expressed in the next generation.
Selected traits are not deliberately responsive to the environment, they are just lucky. The only way that a pig would lose intelligence with every passing generation is if lack of intelligence somehow fostered survival or successful procreation, or if intelligence led to an early death or failure to procreate. (I could make a joke here about rednecks, but I'll take the high road. )
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Veritas]
#7789752 - 12/22/07 04:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I could make a joke here about rednecks, but I'll take the high road.
Sorry, toots. You already took the low road and slandered about 10% of the American population.
--------------------
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7789768 - 12/22/07 04:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
They'll never know unless someone reads it to them.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Veritas]
#7789793 - 12/22/07 05:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|

Note upside-down book:
--------------------
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7789802 - 12/22/07 05:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
You'd think he'd notice that the PICTURES were upside-down.
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7789865 - 12/22/07 05:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Causing any self-conscious being to suffer is unethical, but I don't worry about the suffering of non-conscious beings and feel free to eat them.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#7789876 - 12/22/07 05:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
And your metric for consciousness is...?
--------------------
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7789885 - 12/22/07 05:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
He won't eat anything with a brain?
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7789937 - 12/22/07 05:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: And your metric for consciousness is...?
There is a slew of psychological tests... none are definitive and nobody seems to agree on what consciousness is, but hell, its a start.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Veritas]
#7789939 - 12/22/07 05:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Like a blonde?
--------------------
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#7789943 - 12/22/07 05:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
How many ganglia constitute a brain?
--------------------
|
lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Veritas]
#7790453 - 12/22/07 08:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The way natural selection works is that new organisms inherit genetic material from both parents. If the offspring survives to procreate, and especially if the procreation is at a greater rate or with greater viability than OTHER organisms, then the genetic traits possessed by the offspring have a chance at being expressed in the next generation. Selected traits are not deliberately responsive to the environment, they are just lucky.
i don't understand what you mean there
Quote:
The only way that a pig would lose intelligence with every passing generation is if lack of intelligence somehow fostered survival or successful procreation, or if intelligence led to an early death or failure to procreate.
there are two reasons i think factory farmed pigs will become braindead over time
1. random mutations will eventually break the genes responsible for controlling pig intelligence 2. having a large brain is a disadvantage because brain tissue consumes a lot of calories, which means the pig eats more
in the wild pigs need their relatively large brain to survive
that level of intelligence is not necessary in a factory farm. all a pig needs to survive in the factory is control over automatic breathing and blood pumping, as well as eating, shitting and sleeping
food comes from the same place everyday, there is no shortage of it
the farmer controls which pigs breed through artificial insemination
because intelligence is no longer a factor limiting who passes on their genes, those areas in the pigs genetic code will gradually mutate randomly without consequence. eventually these mutations will render those genes unusable
here are some examples of this process with other animals:
cave dwelling animals (animals that spend thier entire life in lightless caves) that lack eyes, or have small remnants of eyes that in the past were fully functional
the human eye, which still has the remnant of a nictitating membrane. this membrane was part of the eye of a distant ancestor but no longer works (it's the small pink ball under your eyelid nearest to your nose)
the first few generations of farmed bison were able to give birth without any help from their human controllers, unlike cattle, which need help from humans to give birth. later generations of bison are now having more trouble giving birth by themselves because of the help given to them by humans in previoun generations
2. having a large brain is a disadvantage because brain tissue consumes a lot of calories, which means the pig eats more
highly intelligent pigs require more food than those just smart enough survive in the farm, because brain tissue uses more energy than most other organ tissue. it would be a benefit to the farmer if the pig had a smaller brain, since a smaller brain means less food and expense raising the pig
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
Maybe the pigs could be raised in caves using infrared cameras to monitor them. They might then evolve into sightless creatures incapable of running away. Having the legs removed at birth might be another fine solution to that problem. I see the ultimate evolution of that species as pigs raised in huge jars of liquid nutrient that would encourage and greatly accelerate the growth of muscle tissue to abnormal and unatural lengths. These "pigs" would be devoid of eyes, legs, and brains for the most part. They would maintain a medulla for the operation of fundamental tasks such as breathing and heart beat. A colostomy bag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colostomy) would be used to remove waste such as fecal matter and urine.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7790618 - 12/22/07 09:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
that's a really good idea
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
Tumor development would probably run rampant under such conditions, but there is no reason it could not be processed in with the meat. We meat eaters always try to come up with healthy solutions to todays problems...
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (12/22/07 11:30 PM)
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Diploid]
#7791706 - 12/23/07 07:38 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: Well if the torture of animals helps you meet your self centered goals
How about someone who humanely raises and eventually butchers their own food animals in order to stay "off the grid" of industrial animal harvesting?
Have I ever stated anywhere that I object to meat eating on principle? (for others)
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
life is good
Sun and sky and trees



Registered: 07/03/18
Posts: 1,205
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#25612595 - 11/13/18 05:29 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
nah,
what about you?
--------------------
I didn't draw this. "Hope your day is as wonderful, loving, and kind as you are."
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: life is good]
#25614504 - 11/14/18 01:57 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
if the meat is as old as this thread it will kill you
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: laughingdog]
#25617169 - 11/15/18 06:52 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
laughingdog said: if the meat is as old as this thread it will kill you
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
|