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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7781746 - 12/20/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

If striving for non suffering was a characteristic of life, then that would imply that life could never overcome suffering, because its characteristic would require it to struggle against it. Nice logic.


Edited by xFrockx (12/20/07 01:42 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
    #7781883 - 12/20/07 02:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Hmm, no, I don't mean it in a simply circular way. Life is to extend its life into existence.
That is done most easily and efficiently in a non-suffering way.
If then, just eat happy cows :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineJoseLibrado
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
    #7781917 - 12/20/07 02:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Frock.
I said.
To this i cannot relate to, i do not consider myself of this truth, but i cannot say it is wrong or right, rather that we differ in prespectives and if it is true, i would like to hear why."

Then you say
"End the self righteous bullshit, and be vegan for the same reason you do everything else, because it makes you feel good. "

Like icelander, i do what is within my ability to stop any nessecary suffering and have not once said that suffering is unnessecary, but rather i think now, it is just a tool to motivate doing something haha.

i think you have to stop being self-rightous towards people who you think are being self-rightous because i see your anger in words like bull shit and it may be causing you to misread what i am saying.

note the above example.

I ask you to watch the first video and answere the following question: Would you do that to the pigs, for food, or would you do something that is more like organic farming methods?

I ask this because you said you do not get pleasure from causing pain, so i assume that you would prefer, when possible, to give pleasure instead of pain.

PEace and love


YOu are not reading it correctly or misunderstood what i mean by saying i cannot say that it is wrong or right.


--------------------
The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution.

And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change.

Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems.

Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
    #7782017 - 12/20/07 03:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I think you may be mistaken in believing I am self righteous in my denouncement of others perceived righteousness. I do not champion killing animals, in fact, this is far from true. I suppose I could be self righteous in my endorsement of personal choice free of moral constraints, perhaps, but I don't think thats necessarily a bad thing.

As for the "bullshit" I will not censor myself, but you must realize that I do not mean such language to constitute an ad-hominem attack. I was using "bullshit" to refer to the sum of the beliefs that constitute one who is morally vegan. I like how you can "see my anger" though, thats really cute. (Did you see it there too?)

"i do what is within my ability to stop any nessecary suffering "

How can you know that what you are doing to "stop" suffering will not cause more suffering to some other entity? There is no way to tell, unless you develop some sort of morality-o-meter and omniscience.

"I ask you to watch the first video and answer the following question: Would you do that to the pigs, for food, or would you do something that is more like organic farming methods?"

I have slow internet while not at college, so I will not watch the video. Trust me though, I've seen them before, cows being hung by their legs and put on a conveyor across a factory where they are killed and carved, the whole bit. You must trust that I do know the ramifications of such methods.

To answer your question, honestly, I cannot give one answer. Around where I live people are generally fairly poor. If they want to eat meat, they need to get it cheaply. So, if I were to farm around here, I'd expect that I'd need to produce cheap beef to sell it locally. It always sounds nice to think that everyone can afford organically grown things, but this just isn't the case, and here there are very few organic markets (I think the closest one is in Pittsburgh, and thats the smallest city with one around here) As a matter of necessity I would raise livestock in the most efficient way I could. Now, this doesn't necessarily mean box feeding and the ilk, but if I could not support myself or my family without such methods, then I would have very little problem with it.

"I ask this because you said you do not get pleasure from causing pain, so i assume that you would prefer, when possible, to give pleasure instead of pain."

This issue is not that clear cut. I wish it was, but it simply is not. What suffering you take from the animals may ultimately cause something or someone else suffering somewhere down the line. You cannot measure suffering, so there is no way to speak of which is the lesser evil.

To sum this all up(in general, not just in reply to you), do I think its good to eat other animals? No. Do I think its bad to eat other animals? No. It is neither, and to say anything otherwise would imply that you truly know the full consequences of either. You will not and cannot. While you are certainly free to use your own sense of morality in deciding your diet, I certianly don't owe you any respect for doing so, its your intangible decision. Likewise, you don't owe me any respect for my diet choices either.It is a choice, nothing more, and one which is completely up to the eater to make, and there is no outside spin that could ever logically be used to sway them.


Edited by xFrockx (12/20/07 03:13 PM)


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OfflineJoseLibrado
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
    #7782093 - 12/20/07 03:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"How can you know that what you are doing to "stop" suffering will not cause more suffering to some other entity?"

Are you referring to a universal scale of measure. If so, i didnt draw any mention towards it.

the first video shows pigs lined up on a conveyor belt, where they are being put head first into what seems to be water that is beyond 300 degrees, until they die.

HOLY FRUCK!!! HAHAHA. "You cannot measure suffering, so there is no way to speak of which is the lesser evil."

Ok. I know, never did.

Im not sure what you mean " like how you can "see my anger" though, thats really cute. (Did you see it there too?)"

I was just noticing that you are acting in no different way than people who believe without certainty that they are right when they think another is wrong, without concern for the fact that other person believes what they believe, in the same way as you.

I was just mentioning that for the sake of talking to people about being self-rightous, saying "bullshit" to them, as a reference to their belief, will cause them to go off, ending any attempt to free their mind from an ideaological enslavement.

I think organic is even better economically: Farms would be given back to manual labour sector.Consider how much mechanized tools are used in industrial as opposed to traditional farming methods. Although i do know that organic agriculture tends to be traditional farming, with a family tending to the farm,there are those which are not.

I support the traditional.

Industrial farms also cause plenty of disease because of the chemical usage in the animals; whats more is that industrial farming, is creating for 'super bacterias' that are becoming ever more dangerous, as we speak, due to the over use of antibiotics. I remember being in environmental studies 260, watching this lady from agriculture canada show us that meat eaters waste on average 10 times the resources that vegetarians do.

I openly try to endorse meat eating, because i think the outcomes of these practices cause enough suffering to warrant effort, to whatever extend i deem nessecary. I am NOT saying i am GOOD or BAD to do this.


"How can you know that what you are doing to "stop" suffering will not cause more suffering to some other entity?"


I guesse your question is implying the truth that because i dont know exactly how much suffering it causes, i shouldt do anything.

I do know I am right about the amount of suffering, as much as this ability to see, allows me to be. :heart:


--------------------
The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution.

And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change.

Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems.

Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
    #7782609 - 12/20/07 06:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

So monkeys in the trees used arrowheads




No, but many are omnivores like humans, and monkeys eat meat.

Quote:

chimpanzees have been recorded to eat more than 35 types of vertebrate animals (Uehara 1997), the most important vertebrate prey species in their diet is the red colobus monkey. At Gombe, red colobus account for more than 80% of the prey items eaten.




http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~stanford/chimphunt.html

There is hope for your argument yet Ice, because surely the single celled organisms we descended from ate algae or plankton...lol.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7782613 - 12/20/07 06:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Even some of the smaller primates eat insects, which is not exactly a vegan diet. I can't think of any primate which exclusively vegan or vegetarian.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7782635 - 12/20/07 06:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Even termites and ants should be guaranteed rights if we are handing them out to the animal kingdom. To propose that veganism is moral due to the fact that it is some sort of standard in nature is logically flawed as nature evolved each organism to eat what guaranteed survival for it until it reproduced. More and more I feel that vegan is a political party instead of a preference, and I care little for politics or morals. I am worried about the most efficient and practical means to meet a goal.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7784103 - 12/21/07 12:04 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Practicality...

Yea lets face it vegetarianism/vegan-ism is a line, and the world is wiggly. Like any line, it can only be lived as an ideal, because where we draw this line (vegetarians, vegans, omnivores, and carnivores) is in the end based on an issue of personal practicality.

Most of us have an ideal that we will not kill/hurt other humans, but if someone comes at you with a knife, are you gonna follow through with this policy? Even in human ethics, its not as simple as right vs wrong.

I think it would help us on many levels to collectively get this idea of the sacred and absolute right to life out of our head. It is turned into the ultimate trump card that in the end distorts reality.

An attack on vegetarianism because it cannot draw a realistically definitive line is not an attack on vegetarianism, but lines themselves. So of course this does not justify any kind of alternative.

But there is nothing more wrong with personally trying to be a vegetarian, because humans are sentimental, and so will not, and cannot realistically live strictly in terms of such a line. But it doesnt translate objectively, because living in terms of an ideal is not purely logical; in other words, this doesnt translate as an agenda.

Just to warn you all the rest of this post is political, but I think it further demonstrates the same point.

"Isms" seem to arise out of a poor understanding of relativity. terror(ism): We believe that the Government is looking after every single one of our sacred and absolute lives, in no way compromising our safety, whhich would be simply abominable. But it turns out, even in law and government, where our rights are explicit, the "sacred" human life is actually a matter of practicality:

Take a look at this Automobile Deaths in USA by year
Around 42,000 in the USA alone are killed in motor vehicle related accidents.

Now imagine if instead of having the current speed limits, they were nationally lowered everywhere, to 30 miles per hour. Imagine how many lives this would save! But this isn't done, ultimately because an issue of human practicality. It would take twice as long to get places...


Then take a look at this
International Terrorism Statistics - Johnston Archive
In the entire world in between the years 1968 and 2005, if you add up the deaths, there still aren't as many deaths than automobile deaths in USA, in one year, 2005.


But in this case the government decides to put its foot down. It starts the war on terrorism, and pisses all over the the bill of rights, in an effort that can't be proved as working at all.

What would be easier, our war on terrorism, or lowering the speed limit to 30 miles per hour? And which would actually save more lives?

The best part is, that this war on terrorism, which arises out of our attachment to a definitive "right" to life, is basically translated into a clear attack on the bill of rights.

The problem is, we have lost sight of practicality, in our hopes to live definitively, protected and caged by our lines.

Note: Ive looked everywhere for a government issued terrorism statistic, but could not find a source at the USA.gov I wish I could find a more reliable source to quote for deaths by terrorism. This is the one thing we civilians should see, in regards to the war on terror, but I cant find an official source anywhere. Maybe someone could find a better source? :shrug:


Edited by daytripper23 (12/21/07 12:29 AM)


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Offlinesymbiotic
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: daytripper23]
    #7784295 - 12/21/07 01:53 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

As far as efficiency, veganism is by far more efficient. The ratio of the amount of food that goes into an animal vs. the amount of food the animal produces is stupid doo doo dumb. Animals eat about 80% of U$ grain production, and 85% of U$ agriculture land is used to produce animal food. If animals ate grass and shit like they should...what could we do with all that extra food? I dunno, maybe someone could shout out an answer?

Note: Ive looked everywhere for a government issued terrorism statistic, but could not find a source at the USA.gov I wish I could find a more reliable source to quote for deaths by terrorism. This is the one thing we civilians should see, in regards to the war on terror, but I cant find an official source anywhere. Maybe someone could find a better source?

That made me laugh a little.

"Tell me president tell me if you will. How many people does a smart bomb kill? How many of 'em do you think we got? The general says we never miss a shot. And we never ever ever keep a body count. We killin' so efficiently we can't keep count. In the Afghan hills, the rebels still fightin'. Opium fields keep on providin' the best heroin that money can buy and nobody knows where Osama been hidin'. The press conferences keep on lyin' like we don't know."

"The war for oil is a war for the beast, the war on terror is a war on peace."
Spearhead track light up ya lighta album yellfire


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The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.


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Offlinesymbiotic
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: symbiotic]
    #7784306 - 12/21/07 01:58 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Almost forgot, but didn't...According to Lyman, in ‘Mad Cowboy’, “... an acre of fertile land can produce forty thousand pounds of potatoes, thirty thousand pounds of carrots, fifty thousand pounds of tomatoes, or two hundred fifty pounds of beef ... “. Land used to produce food for animals could otherwise remain wild, in the form of for example natural forests, which with its wide diversity of species would help contribute to a more sustainable environment.


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The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: symbiotic]
    #7784559 - 12/21/07 05:08 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

As far as efficiency, veganism is by far more efficient.




My whole point was not about ultimate efficiency of the human race, which I cannot determine. I am talking about the most efficient means for ME to meet a goal. I do think that there are many health aspects of the vegan diet that are extremely good. One problem that I have had in the past (not now) and which people in our culture now seem to suffer from is that they tend to eat too little raw and whole foods due to the influx of processed foods...both vegetable and meat based. I think raw and cooked vegetables and fruits are of crucial importance to the diet...even more so than meat. I do not deny that vegans as a group tend to be healthier, but this is in great part due to the fact that more vegans are conscious in their eating habits than the majority of people are. I do feel that anyone who is conscious and informed in their diet choices can be healthy regardless of whether they eat meat or not. As for me, I live in an area where free range and organic food is at a premium price due to scarcity. During a recent trip to Oregon I noted that organic foods tend to be cheaper than where I live due to their popularity. So, free range meats are not really even an option. I also am rebuilding my body after years of catastrophic weight problems. I have recently lost a lot of weight and I am now using weight training to rebuild lost muscle tissue to maximize my metabolism. I must have an easily accessible and affordable protein source. To try to replace this with vegan sources would be more expensive and time consuming (due to planning). I also have serious doubts as to if I could get 150 to 200 grams of protein a day from a plant source in a pleasant and healthy manner. Even if I could does the effort and expense justify the result when eating meat is not a moral issue to me? Lean unprocessed meats are the most efficient means for me personally to absorb protein, though it must be said that the vast bulk of my diet is still mostly fruit, nut, and vegetable. This is what I mean by efficient. Now, when people want to take a jihadist view of meat eaters and equate veganism with ultimate truth or compassion they are merely deceiving themselves.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (12/21/07 08:43 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
    #7784927 - 12/21/07 09:28 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

How can you know that what you are doing to "stop" suffering will not cause more suffering to some other entity? There is no way to tell, unless you develop some sort of morality-o-meter and omniscience.

Every human makes judgments,so you can't cop out that way. None of us know the ultimate results of our actions but we try to live up to our personal code of ethics. You do this also. You do your best and make a judgment/guess about what life means every time you make a decision. You can't avoid it.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7784953 - 12/21/07 09:40 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Even termites and ants should be guaranteed rights if we are handing them out to the animal kingdom. To propose that veganism is moral due to the fact that it is some sort of standard in nature is logically flawed as nature evolved each organism to eat what guaranteed survival for it until it reproduced. More and more I feel that vegan is a political party instead of a preference, and I care little for politics or morals. I am worried about the most efficient and practical means to meet a goal.




Well if the torture of animals helps you meet your self centered goals then good for you but IMO it says something important about your love life.


Vegetarian eating may not be for everyone but compassion aught to be IMO. If you feel that anything can be done to animals in the name of your rights and goal then what makes you different then someone who feels it's alright for humans to suffer so they can reach their goals? Like Nazi Germany for example.

Also knowing your economic situation I find it hard to believe you can't afford anything you choose as important in the area of food.

I say make your own choice about what is important but at least be clear about it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/21/07 09:42 AM)


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Offlinekody260z
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
    #7785201 - 12/21/07 11:16 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I think it comes down to whether or not one personally believes that they'd like to reduce suffering. If so, it follows that they should do everything they *feasibly can* to prevent suffering, regardless of its form.

When you think about it, reducing or eliminating one's support for factory farms takes a relatively small amount of work compared to the positive outcome it provides. That's why I think the feasibility to outcome ratio of vegetarianism is quite high, and thus it is a great way one can make a significant difference in their personal strides to make the world a better, more peaceful place...for everyone.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: kody260z]
    #7785224 - 12/21/07 11:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

And, one does not have to forgo eating meat to forgo the support of torture farming of animals.

"a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -Gandi

I agree with this as one way to judge our state of civilization.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/21/07 11:22 AM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
    #7785234 - 12/21/07 11:22 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
And, one does not have to forgo eating meat to forgo the support of torture farming of animals.



Free range chicken FTW! :thumbup:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: kody260z]
    #7785240 - 12/21/07 11:24 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It seems to me that a great many "unsolvable" problems stem from the tendency to value efficiency and convenience over "touchy-feely" pursuits such as reducing suffering, showing compassion and utilizing resources in a sustainable manner.

Do we really believe that access to a cheap Big Mac is worth the destruction of the rain forests for grazing land and the torture of millions of cows?  If we evaluated our lifestyle decisions on this basis, would we all be making the same choices?  I hope not.  :sad:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
    #7785485 - 12/21/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Well if the torture of animals helps you meet your self centered goals then good for you but IMO it says something important about your love life.




Reality flows out from the center. The center is the individual. Being self centered is the only way we can be. To pretend that one is centered elsewhere is self importance through false humility.


Quote:

I say make your own choice about what is important but at least be clear about it.




In what way am I not clear? I have made my choices and admitted them here. I have zero compunctions about consuming meat. My goals are THE most important thing to me. Can I not be more clear? I would prefer free range meat if it were available here, but it is mostly NOT available unless I drive 70 miles to get it. That choice would merely be a health choice, not a moral one. If you want to equate meat consumers with Nazis well go ahead. I will be such a Nazi. In any case I don't feel that you truly support your own talk. I know that you wear leather shoes, use mousetraps, and I would hazard to guess that you would not allow insects to nest in or around your home. How many articles of clothing do you have made from animal products? Do you happen to use wool? How many of the plant foods that you eat were farmed on land that was once environment for wild animals that were eliminated along with that environment? It seems to me the only "ethical" way to consume plants (by the standard you present here) would be to use only plant products gathered directly from nature. The increase of agricultural farmland is destroying the rainforest in South America. This contributes to global warming and the destruction of more environment leading to the extinction of more species. It is easy to ignore these factors in order to be right. You once criticized me for black and white judgments...


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (12/21/07 12:55 PM)


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OfflineSunshineSuperman
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7785512 - 12/21/07 12:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I have been a vegetarian since I went to a slaughter house when I was 14. It makes my stomach turn just thinking about it.


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