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BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7781160 - 12/20/07 11:07 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's not if, or if not we eat meat or if eating meat is good or bad, it's about how we eventually rise and then kill and prepare the animal. In a larger sense, that is true for plants too. At least, that's as I see the 'problem'.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7781176 - 12/20/07 11:13 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: It's not if, or if not we eat meat or if eating meat is good or bad, it's about how we eventually rise and then kill and prepare the animal. In a larger sense, that is true for plants too. At least, that's as I see the 'problem'.
As do I.
Also that eating meat is a choice and not a necessity.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 13 hours
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7781201 - 12/20/07 11:17 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Here's a question: Why does suffering matter? You use it to battle against more naturalistic arguements, siting their obvious lack of logical grounds, yet suffering is such an intangible, and some would argue a necessary thing. (Buddhists: Life is Suffering) So then, what logical grounds can you make against animals being subjected to suffering?
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daytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7781307 - 12/20/07 11:51 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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So Im assuming that your assumed righteousness comes from the US government? Or God? Then let me ask, what are you doing on a psychedelic mushroom site?
Havent you figured out that what the government, what society, what religion says is right or wrong(it goes both ways by the way) is not necessarily truth?
And another thing, don't tell me you think the money you spend just disappears. What you spend your money on, you support indirectly.
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7781309 - 12/20/07 11:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I didn't watch the videos, but I have seen plenty of them from PETA in the past. Maybe its my love of meat, maybe not. I have always said that when I die I want it to be as painful as possible, because I want to experience it. How much more cruel would it be to sequester these animals to some field (or even the earth itself) only to have them spend their days chewing cud until they eventually die?
Thats what the animals get for allowing themselves to be enslaved. If they really cared and were aware of their suffering, they could easily revolt, there are far more of them than us.
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: daytripper23]
#7781318 - 12/20/07 11:53 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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What what?
This is nothing to do with vegetarianism, get a break dude.
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opensaysme
Be Here Now



Registered: 07/15/07
Posts: 1,649
Loc: NJ-NY area
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7781333 - 12/20/07 11:58 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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well then your argument should not be is it alright to eat other animals, it should be is it alright to support the inhumane slaughter of animals by eating the final product.
what about the kobe beef i love so much? those cattle get to drink beer and get massages daily.... not too bad in my book.
Edited by opensaysme (12/20/07 12:00 PM)
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daytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7781337 - 12/20/07 11:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Im not particularly against meat eating. If you didnt notice, I spent about 3 pages of this thread defending the stance actually. Take a look.
I am equally opposed to anyone who says "you have the right" to eat meat, as I am opposed to someone who says "you dont have the right to eat meat." I am arguing against the false sense of self-righteousness, on whichever side of this debate.
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opensaysme
Be Here Now



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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: daytripper23]
#7781341 - 12/20/07 12:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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cool, i hear that
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: daytripper23]
#7781351 - 12/20/07 12:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ah, ok, that makes sense now.
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opensaysme
Be Here Now



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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7781415 - 12/20/07 12:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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i love eating a fat porterhouse steak fresh from the butcher when im in the midst of a trip.
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JoseLibrado
return


Registered: 04/21/07
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7781450 - 12/20/07 12:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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"Here's a question: Why does suffering matter?"
Fun question.
In relation to others and suffering, just like in reltation to myself, i consider myself to be a person who does not feel good when i cause another to suffer. It is no different than the way i view myself in relation to my surroundings and the things i do and dont do.
You must be different in some way and i would like to hear what you have to say...because this above statement of belief, tells me that if someone you know and are close to, had broken leg and were standing in front of yourself with the capability to help them, you would just leave them there and tell them that pain is nessecary for pleasure, only?
To this i cannot relate to, i do not consider myself of this truth, but i cannot say it is wrong or right, rather that we differ in prespectives and if it is true, i would like to hear why.
"Thats what the animals get for allowing themselves to be enslaved. If they really cared and were aware of their suffering, they could easily revolt, there are far more of them than us. "
They didnt choose to be enslaved, we simply saw we had the power to enslave them, and cause them to reproduce, the cows you eat have no knowledge of anything else other than the place they are in.
I do have this knowledge of what other types of experiences, they can have and i believe myself to be a person who would offer this to them. (look at organic farming.)
Shroomin. "Whatever people do is their thing and it has NOTHING at all to do with me eating meat"
Without people to buy meat from them, these companies would stop treating animals this way and switch over to Organic, methods. (see the last video, if you do not want to watch the others). If you watched the videos and read the threads posts, you would have been up to date on this. You may wish to do that more often, because remarks like these usually reduce peoples motivation to have a discussion with you. And im sure you dont care, but if you prefer to discuss things with us all here, i think this makes sense to do.
Peace
-------------------- The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution. And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change. Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems. Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7781551 - 12/20/07 12:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I am not one that takes pleasure in suffering, but rather one who realizes the impossibility of not suffering.
Every day you wake up, presumably in some industrialized country. You get out of bed. Think of the ramifications of that. You had a bed to get out of. Think of how many living, breathing, suffering human beings cannot say that. Also, consider the nature of your bed, where are the sheets made? The mattress? The frame? The carpet beneath it? How many were made by "sufferers"? How many of the articles of clothing you wear every day come from Vietnam, Cambodia, or China, made by the hands of children, who if they are lucky have a lifespan of about 15, not much more than the average cow. These people do not have the luxury of standing quietly in a box.
Now, you get out of bed, hopefully ashamed of yourself because of all this suffering, and get in the shower. The water that hits your body is another luxury. You pour gallons on yourself, while other people around the world die of thirst or are forced to drink toxic water just to survive. The heat that the water has is also a luxury. Odds are you either have Oil or Natural Gas heat. Nations in Africa and the Middle east are ruled by tyrants who, with the help of fossil fuel revenue, rule over the huddled masses, erecting with gleaming pillars of their wealth while children beg in the streets to feed their families a meager meal of bread and water. So often these children are stolen and sold into slavery, sexual or otherwise.
I don't even want to get into what happens when you get into an automobile and eat your meals of the day, think of the hundreds of thousands of people who suffer at your expense? Hell, you even have the luxury of using a computer. Think of how much you care about that. Would you stop indirectly supporting all that because of the immeasurable suffering it causes?
If you want to be a vegan, fine, do it, by all means. However, don't tell me that I don't understand the suffering I cause by eating meat, because when it really boils down to it, suffering happens, and it doesn't matter whether your eating beef or driving a car, you are contributing to it. End the self righteous bullshit, and be vegan for the same reason you do everything else, because it makes you feel good.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7781589 - 12/20/07 01:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: Here's a question: Why does suffering matter? You use it to battle against more naturalistic arguements, siting their obvious lack of logical grounds, yet suffering is such an intangible, and some would argue a necessary thing. (Buddhists: Life is Suffering) So then, what logical grounds can you make against animals being subjected to suffering?
OK then if I subject you to a life of suffering in prison or torture camp then I'm sure you will say "hey this suffering is necessary and I see no need for it to end"
Talk about lack of empathy. And understanding. While suffering is part of existence I see no need for purposely causing it. Unless you are you of course.
However I do agree with your other points. We do cause suffering. Some of it is necessary and much of it is not. I have made a point of limiting my involvement in a lot of it. Of course I'm still guilty of some. So what do I do? Well I try to change because I don't like needless suffering and I do the best I am able. I tackle the easier things first. Not eating meat is easy and its a source of tremendous suffering IMO. If we just go along then nothing changes. Is this stance hypocritical? Yes, somewhat, you can always find something I am remiss in.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/20/07 01:09 PM)
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 13 hours
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7781591 - 12/20/07 01:03 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Did you read my above post? If you really care about suffering you probably have some explaining to do.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7781617 - 12/20/07 01:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Did you read the whole post?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/20/07 01:10 PM)
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7781660 - 12/20/07 01:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Oops, apparently not, must have caught it pre-edit.
I can agree that not eating meat may absolve one from causing some measure of suffering, I just see it as a drop in the bucket honestly. You must remember also that farming is a source of income for many people, and without making money from it they too would suffer. Not all land can be planted on, some places must take advantage of raising livestock in order to make a living from the land (See: Central Austrailia and Africa)
If there is any issue to eating meat, I think it lies mainly in the method of production. I do eat organics a good portion of the time, but I don't really do it for a moral reason, organic food normally tastes somewhat better. I am a strong believer in the free market, if people demand organics instead of cheap agribusiness methods, so be it, but I don't see that battle as having anything to do at all with the actual act of eating meat (Or any lack of empathy or understanding on my part, that much was just unwarranted and unnecessary)
Edited by xFrockx (12/20/07 01:24 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7781692 - 12/20/07 01:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Farmers can choose how to grow and treat their animals. I came from farm stock in Michigan. My Grandpa was a farmer, county agent and seed salesman. A more closed minded guy would be hard to find. He really knew very little about what made soil healthy. He was a fool in the service of the pesticide and fertilizer guys. He never thought for himself yet was considered a smart guy by all the other farmers.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 13 hours
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
#7781735 - 12/20/07 01:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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They can choose, yes, just as the customers will choose to buy or not. The sad fact is, most people in this country rely on cheap meat for protein. This means that farmers must bring the prices down on their produce, so as a result, they need to use methods that use bulk and work efficiently. Its not really their fault people want things so cheaply, nor is it really the people's fault that they don't have the money for more expensive organic food.
I'm not arguing so much that eating meat is "good" but rather, eating meat is a choice, and one which has absolutely no moral grounds one way or the other. To say that it does would imply that one could somehow measure the suffering "matrix" and decide what suffering means more, the animals, or the farmers and customers? We can never do that, so we simply cannot argue our eating decisions on any moral ground, hence my sentiment, "do it because it makes you feel good."
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
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Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: xFrockx]
#7781736 - 12/20/07 01:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: Here's a question: Why does suffering matter? You use it to battle against more naturalistic arguements, siting their obvious lack of logical grounds, yet suffering is such an intangible, and some would argue a necessary thing. (Buddhists: Life is Suffering) So then, what logical grounds can you make against animals being subjected to suffering?
Because all li(/o)f(/v)e strives for non-suffering aka happiness.
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