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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: SunshineSuperman]
    #7785520 - 12/21/07 12:56 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

That is completely your choice and right. I applaud you for exercising it. I am not concerned with vegans, but with intolerance and elitism...


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7785542 - 12/21/07 01:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You once criticized me for black and white judgments...

Where have I been black and white? You seem a little defensive about a debate.

I asked you what the difference was between your position and the one the Nazi's held. I did not equate meat consumers with Nazi's as you state, instead I equated the use of torture farming to meet ones goals with the use of torture to meet Nazi goals. I have not said eating meat was wrong. I also admitted that I don't always walk my talk in this area. So what's your point besides being defensive?

Again my opinion in this debate is that I am not against meat eating but am against the torture of animals to provide my meat when there are more humane ways of doing it. That seems a very logical step towards being the person I would like to be. However I realize I am in an imperfect culture and I myself am imperfect and so will not always walk my talk. This issue is important to me. It doesn't have to be for you but we are in a debate here and one I did not start I might add.

And what I meant by being clear is that you own the fact that animals are being tortured in your behalf. Some of your reasoning was not clear IMO as you stated "facts" about nutrition that are in doubt.

I am not concerned with being right here but in having a debate. I'm not defensive about this and I fully admit the truth of my stance as subjective and self serving toward the kind of world I would like to live in. And I haven't bought leather shoes in so long I can't remember. The fact that I use wool does not mean these animals were tortured for that wool as most sheep are free ranged around here. And I agree that the plants I eat come from land that was once wild. But I don't really see your point. I'm talking about the willing and needless inhuman conditions that we raise animals in for food. Like chickens with their beaks chopped off left for life in a cage they cannot move in until they die. I just don't want to be part of that and that's where a limit is reached for me. It isn't for you, OK, but I was debating about your statement that eating factory farmed meat was necessary to your goals. I say it isn't and you do it because it's easier for you and traditional as in a program you have adopted.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinesymbiotic
insighted
Male

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 105
Loc: ok,nm,co,ca,or
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7785552 - 12/21/07 01:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

We have to redesign the way we design things. lol If you want to eat meat you can stop supporting the monopoly companies like McDonalds Quiznos Subway etc. and go to the local butcher or bagel shop wherever to buy local farm raised meat and it will make a huge impact. And don't forget, you can hunt and fish for yourself! In my humble opinion this is by far the most respectable method of obtaining meat. There are also enzyme, amino-acid, and vitamin supplements if you don't get enough fruits and veggies.


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The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.


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Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: symbiotic]
    #7785881 - 12/21/07 02:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Conscious and deliberate hunting is a predator-prey relationship. I dont think one could argue that many ways meat is "grown" in this country, is still this. It is one of the many unnaturalities that arises from technology.


Edited by daytripper23 (12/21/07 03:20 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Icelander]
    #7786421 - 12/21/07 05:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Well if the torture of animals helps you meet your self centered goals

How about someone who humanely raises and eventually butchers their own food animals in order to stay "off the grid" of industrial animal harvesting?


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineVisionary Tools
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7786563 - 12/21/07 06:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Is eating animals bad? No, it's nature.

Is suffering animals go through so we can eat them, being bred in substandard, factory conditions, being slaughtered in a factory surrounded by death on all sides, is that good? No.

I'm omnivorous, because in weighing up the pros of meat (it tastes really, really nice, and apart from nuts, I can't effectively substitute it, not in terms of texture) with the negative aspects, I'd rather be with, than without.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Diploid]
    #7786586 - 12/21/07 06:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

what most people don't realize is that over time factory farmed animals will evolve to the conditions they live under as long as we continue to factory farm for thousands or millions of years

eventually you will be left with an animal that is able to thrive under those conditions

it is really no different than any catastrophic environmental event, except that instead of a volcano or a decrease in solar energy it is decisions made by humans that cause "change" in the animal's environment

the main reason i object to factory farmed meat is that i don't think its in our best interests when plant foods are more efficient in producing food


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7786594 - 12/21/07 06:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Considering that factory farm animals are intentionally bred by the farmers, I don't think there's going to be a whole lot of natural selection going on. But who knows? Maybe someday they'll evolve to overtake their captors. Anyone read Animal Farm?


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OfflineJoseLibrado
return


Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 569
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7786622 - 12/21/07 06:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"the main reason i object to factory farmed meat is that i don't think its in our best interests when plant foods are more efficient in producing food"

Although i do agree with the first part of your post, that we all eventually adapt to our surrounding and the pain we are to undertake. I believe that what you said above may contradict the first statement. The answere can be brought back to our own best interest in regards to the end goal of interest, which is to reduce suffering.
If you claim that animals will eventually thrive in any environment, then following an interest will generate no greater benefit, than a loss. because if i have understood you correctly, you said that eventually they will thrive in any environment, which means to me that they are not missing out on being outdoors playing with other animals, because they have never experienced it, and you cannot experience missing out on something you dont experience.

It is in this that i fail to see what causes you to have any concern for our interests, if it exists within the same light of the previous thought.

I think a good measure of what would be best for the animal, would be to observe its behaviour after it is released from being constantly inside of a factory farm...will it return?

I sincerily doubt it would return to a cubicle with no fresh air and no contact with others and so i see that it is best for me, as expressing what reality seems to be, to not eat industrialized meats.


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The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution.

And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change.

Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems.

Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7786623 - 12/21/07 06:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i don't see the words "natural selection" anywhere in my post

i said the animals would evolve according to the conditions they live under, and that that is analogous to what happens naturally


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
    #7786699 - 12/21/07 06:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

the difference is the animals we farm have no choice

we have a choice


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7786742 - 12/21/07 07:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i don't see the words "natural selection" anywhere in my post

In order for animals to "evolve to the conditions they live under", natural selection must take place.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Diploid]
    #7786809 - 12/21/07 07:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

lets say you own a kennel with 100 newborn pups

every day you monitor the number of times each dog barks or whines

at the end of each year (before the dogs can breed) you remove the 50 dogs that barked the most and breed the 50 that barked the least for a new batch of 100 newborn pups

over time you will develop a quiet breed of dog

the dogs "evolved to the conditions they live under" but it is not natural selection in my opinion


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7786934 - 12/21/07 07:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

at the end of each year (before the dogs can breed) you remove the 50 dogs that barked the most

This costs money and doesn't drive the evolution of the herd toward greater productivity and lower costs, which is what farmers are after.

I think the point SS was making is that a farmer is not going to do this. A farmer is going to breed for greater yield and lower cost, not greater animal happiness.

In order for the animals to evolve to naturally better fit into the farming paradigm, NATURAL selection (read: the farmer doesn't interfere) must take place.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Diploid]
    #7786999 - 12/21/07 08:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i still disagree with the point

i mean look at pigs

if you are right and all farmers want is greater production, eventually the pig will lose nearly all its intelligence because intelligence is no longer necessary in a system where food appears regardless of how smart you are and the passing of genes is done only through artificial insemination

at some point the pig will have just enough brain power to eat, sleep and shit (plus automatic processes)

the same can be said about suffering because it is no longer a factor in who passes on their genes... anything that is not a factor in passing down genes eventually disappears

at the same time i am sure that these animals would evolve many new adaptations such as the ability to breathe air with large amounts of ammonia in it and resistance to disease

what you would be left with is a mindless blob of flesh attached to a feeding tube


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7787025 - 12/21/07 08:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

eventually the pig will lose nearly all its intelligence because intelligence is no longer necessary in a system where food appears regardless of how smart you are

This is true, but only subtle changes occur in a human lifetime. For gross changes like you're describing to occur takes hundred of thousands of years... or more.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Diploid]
    #7787035 - 12/21/07 08:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

at least that, maybe even millions of years


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7787469 - 12/21/07 10:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

what you would be left with is a mindless blob of flesh attached to a feeding tube




It might make a pretty good sandwich...


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: Huehuecoyotl] * 1
    #7787621 - 12/21/07 11:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Mmmmmmm! Spam - the King of mystery meats. :yesnod:


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InvisiblePsychoslut
The Mother Fucking Bear-o-dactyl
 User Gallery
Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 20,917
Loc: all up in ya
Re: Do you think it is good to eat other animals? [Re: JoseLibrado]
    #7787640 - 12/21/07 11:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i dont worry about it much. 90% of the meat i eat is 100% organic and very free range. the animals that i eat pretty much have the greatest life they could possibly have all the way up untill i stick an arrow in it or toss some shot. :smirk:


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[quote]KristiMidocean said:
Good now thats clear.WHO FUCKING CARES. If I am fat u all keep pointing it out like its suppose to be a secret.LIke u really have nothing better to do then make fat jokes. If o know its like I do I know yall can come up with NEW AND BETTER SHIT . This shit is old and boring . I left in the first place cause this shit got boring not because of the fat jokes . Fat jokes dont bother me but seriously its old[/quote]


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