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OfflineBrAiN
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Are we going to war with Iran?
    #7762006 - 12/15/07 02:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

OK AGAIN.. Even though I keep asking this no one seems to stick to it.

This thread... ARE WE GOING TO WAR SOON WITH IRAN (Soon being < 10 years or so) and why do you think so. No debates over sources or anything.

PURE OPINION. YES OR NO and Why?

Me Personally.. I doubt it. I think we'll just be watching each other's backs for a while putting on a show.

Anyone else?


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7762149 - 12/15/07 03:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, you are. Beyond any shadow of a doubt.

Why?

Because all you Americans are going to allow it when it happens. The men behind the curtain have already decided to.

It's following the Iraq war protocol to the letter.

The Neo cons who troll this forum will even seek to justify ruining a country which poses no threat to you.


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Edited by Minstrel (12/15/07 03:15 PM)


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Minstrel]
    #7762227 - 12/15/07 03:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

No.

Because once we do, there will cease to be a "we," because we'll need to have a draft to be able to attack them. I don't know about you, but once I get a draft notice all bets are off.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7762245 - 12/15/07 03:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I think the Bush administration would like to, but they lost all their credibility on Iraq, and just don't have the political capital(nor the human resources) to do so. It may be a distinct possibility if Rudy gets elected(which he won't).


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7762274 - 12/15/07 03:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Not happening.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7762493 - 12/15/07 04:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

no, neocon war mongers wont get elected as president in the next 10 years.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


Edited by SlashOZ (12/15/07 04:55 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7762517 - 12/15/07 05:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

A full-scale war? No. While their conventional military would easily be destroyed, the US does not have the means to fight against 15 million Baseej soldiers.

We might bomb them to keep our Sunni allies happy, though.


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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7763157 - 12/15/07 08:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yes. 100%.

If you think no... wow...


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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Ginseng1]
    #7763627 - 12/15/07 09:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ginseng1 said:
Yes. 100%.

If you think no... wow...




What sort of reasoning are you basing this on? If you're so sure, please enlighten us with your limitless wisdom.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7764566 - 12/16/07 01:46 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I doubt we'll see an escalation of hostilities with Iran.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7764672 - 12/16/07 02:56 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> I doubt we'll see an escalation of hostilities with Iran.

The easiest way out of Iraq is through Iran. Should help increase oil prices for another few years as well.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7764687 - 12/16/07 09:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
I doubt we'll see an escalation of hostilities with Iran. [/quote

Are you forgetting about the bet we made a year or so back already?


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Redstorm]
    #7766940 - 12/16/07 07:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I am almost 100% sure that there will not be a United States war with Iran.

I would bet money on it.

It doesn't make sense anymore. It would be enormously unpopular, making the Iraq War look like a Great Patriotic Crusade. GWB is out of office in a year and a few days, and things aren't looking up for the Republicans. He is not going to start a protracted war against an enemy much stronger than the one in Iraq. If you think hunting down Baathist's in the big sand deserts of Iraq was bad, how are you going to enjoy the mountains of Iran?

Now, if Israel bombs Iran one of these days, thats another story. This looks more and more probable as the days go on.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Redstorm]
    #7766989 - 12/16/07 07:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

Ginseng1 said:
Yes. 100%.

If you think no... wow...




What sort of reasoning are you basing this on? If you're so sure, please enlighten us with your limitless wisdom.




What sort of reasoning? Well, you look at a countries shameless history for one. Then you look at its goals. You look at what the country has done to the world, its propaganda, and the manipulations done to its very people. Finally you then consider the "men behind the curtain". Its all part of the plan. Whether its a big war, a small one, a coup, or a manipulation, its all part of the big fuckin plan that has been planned all along. There is no escape.

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/


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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Ginseng1]
    #7767004 - 12/16/07 07:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

So do you believe we will go to war with Iran before the Bush presidency is over?

Quote:

Finally you then consider the "men behind the curtain". Its all part of the plan. Whether its a big war, a small one, a coup, or a manipulation, its all part of the big fuckin plan that has been planned all along. There is no escape.




That is nothing but baseless delusion. Also, Zeitgeist has been torn to shreds, but I wouldn't want you to have to look at anything which doesn't fit your narrow beliefs.


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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Redstorm]
    #7767049 - 12/16/07 07:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
So do you believe we will go to war with Iran before the Bush presidency is over?





No.

But they will eventually. Even if the U.S. isnt the catalyst in Irans inevitable invasion, another country will be. And they will all be operating under the same entity. The U.S. WILL be there. Who knows when? I'd take a wild stab and say within half a decade.


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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...


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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Redstorm]
    #7767056 - 12/16/07 07:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Also, Zeitgeist has been torn to shreds, but I wouldn't want you to have to look at anything which doesn't fit your narrow beliefs.




Torn to shreds by whom? Oh how I would love to look into that one..

Thats like saying the CIA has never commited such attrocities. They have. They always have. And theyre still doing it. Always.

What are the delusions really? The fact that the CIA was behind the coup in Chile? The attempted and failed coup in Venezuela? Is the delusion that alot of people have been murdered? Whos really delusional here?


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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...


Edited by Ginseng1 (12/16/07 07:54 PM)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Ginseng1]
    #7767228 - 12/16/07 08:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ginseng1 said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
So do you believe we will go to war with Iran before the Bush presidency is over?





No.

But they will eventually. Even if the U.S. isnt the catalyst in Irans inevitable invasion, another country will be. And they will all be operating under the same entity. The U.S. WILL be there. Who knows when? I'd take a wild stab and say within half a decade.




So w/in the next 5 years, someone is going to invade Iran, and it will be the US' fault?

No other country in the region can project force outside of its own borders, or countries that it shares a border with. So who is going to invade Iran?

Tajikistan?

Azerbaijan?

Come on. The only country other than the US that even has a slight beef with Iran is Israel. Israel distrusts enormously the new US NEI that says Iran is developing nuclear weapons, and have been known to strike at targets in other countries w/out a declaration of war. I would not be the least bit surprised if Israel bombed an Iranian facility or two.

But they are not going to invade Iran like the US did Iraq. They would need to transit Iraq to get through to Iran, and there is not one thing that the United States Government wants to avoid more than regional Arab-Israeli war.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Redstorm]
    #7767467 - 12/16/07 09:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i hoped you didnt remember that...


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Redstorm]
    #7767478 - 12/16/07 09:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

we still got till Bush is out of office, but i think im gonna lose, and you'll get your meddling 50$!


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7768850 - 12/17/07 10:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

no. bilderberg has already called it off.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7768874 - 12/17/07 10:39 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I give about 60-40 odds of war with Iran sometime next year. The odds were higher before the Intelligence Estimate was revealed but since when did the Bush zoo crew let facts stand in their way of starting a war?

You have to read the neocon's game plan to understand that creative destruction is their method of enacting change in the Middle East.

From their POV they don't want to leave this to some other administration- they want to act while they are still in power. Their ideology has been thoroughly discredited by most normal people and there is no guarantee even a future Republican president would fulfill their wishes.

They don't need anyone's permission to attack Iran. The president has all the authority he needs to act. The way I see it playing out is Israel launching air strikes first as they did before in 1981 on Iraq's nuclear reactor at Osirak. (Consider that they did this even though the US was supporting Iraq at the time in their war against Iran).

Both the US and Israel could get what they want:

Israel's new government needs to establish themselves as tough guys since they are viewed as weak after their recent confrontation with Hezbollah. An Israeli attack would give them the reputation they seek while providing cover to the US which cannot attack first as a practical matter. Since Iran would undoubtedly respond with an attack against our ally, Israel, the US would then be "forced" to respond with an attack of its own.

Perfect.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


Edited by zorbman (12/17/07 10:46 AM)


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: zorbman]
    #7768912 - 12/17/07 10:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'll bet you $50 that we have not gone to war with Iran by this time next year...


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: afoaf]
    #7768938 - 12/17/07 10:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, I would take that bet in a second.

I mean, your side.

Not the opposite.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: zorbman]
    #7768955 - 12/17/07 11:02 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:

Israel's new government needs to establish themselves as tough guys since they are viewed as weak after their recent confrontation with Hezbollah. An Israeli attack would give them the reputation they seek while providing cover to the US which cannot attack first as a practical matter. Since Iran would undoubtedly respond with an attack against our ally, Israel, the US would then be "forced" to respond with an attack of its own.

Perfect.




Perfectly idiotic.

The United States, above all else, does NOT WANT Israel to attack ANY Muslim country.

While we support Israel with vast arms sales and international aid, we do not want to be on the same side as them in any shooting war. The United States is probably the only moderating force on Israeli power.

Do you know how bad they wanted to kick Saddam's ass in Gulf War I when he was raining scuds down on Tel-Aviv? They would have loved to take out those scud sites, and probably could have done it. But we made massive promises to stop that.

Washington realizes that as bad as our image is with the Arab populace, it would be exponentially worse if there were a shooting war between Israel and ANY Islamic state with the US as an active combatant.

This will NOT happen.

Either the US will attack Iran unilaterally, the Israeli's will attack Iran unilaterally, or there will be no attack.

The one option that is MOST illogical is the one that you proposed. It is against everyones best interests.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7769390 - 12/17/07 12:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, it would indeed be idotic but that has never stopped this administration before.

Israel and the US need not attack jointly at all. Their main goal is that it get done. The specifics are relatively unimportant.

I see it happening next spring mainly in the form of air strikes.

Also consider that most of Iran's oil fields are located in a narrow strip along the Iran-Iraq border. The administration could argue that Iran is launching attacks from there and seize those oil assets.

Could the US conquer and hold the whole country?

No.

But they could possibly seize and hold a strategically important region within that country. It would be a gamble but Bush is known for making bold, even reckless moves.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: zorbman]
    #7769411 - 12/17/07 12:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You really think the Republican's in Congress would let Bush launch a war 6 months before the general election?

You can say what you want about King George, or whatever. I hate the guy too. But the fact is that Congress did give authorization for the Iraq war.

GWB would HAVE to come to Congress to get permission for an Iran invasion. There is 100% no chance of him taking such an action without congressional approval.

Do you really believe they'd give it to him?

The strongest instinct that a congress-person has is that of self-preservation. The GOP'ers in Congress are already doing everything they can to distance themselves from G-Dub and his spectacularly failed foreign policy.

Nobody is going to join him in a Politically-Suicidal War on Iran. And this doesn't even take into account that the Democrats are a majority in both houses.

It is just not going to happen.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offline2FiNiTe
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: zorbman]
    #7769415 - 12/17/07 12:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Visions from the future:

kill people.



start there. everything else is posturing.

i killed people in post-iran after we dropped the bomb on tehran. they told me i was protecting america.

this is a war. the government of the united states has declared and is fighting a war against the people
of the united states and people all over the world.

i kill people. that’s what war is.

when i say government of the united states is at war with you this is not propaganda. i know because i
was them. i was the guy who broke down your door at four AM and did things to you with pliers
until we knew the names of your friends.

understand the situation. resistance to this government–in any way--is not an act of free speech or a
way to make your voice heard or a chance to impress your friends with your principles. resistance is
treason and they will kill you for it.

that will only change if they lose the war. losing a war happens when one side has suffered so much
that they no longer have the will to fight. because of parepin and neurochips and fear–especially
fear--we are currently losing that will to fight. we are losing the war.

suffering is the point. terror is the point. it is not enough to be willing to die for your country. you must
be willing to kill for your country as well. that is what war means.


i kill people. so should you.


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"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7769418 - 12/17/07 12:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Have anything rational or intelligent to add?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offline2FiNiTe
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7769422 - 12/17/07 12:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

in the 20th century the war for civil liberties in america was fought against a democratically elected
government under constant pressure from public opinion and a free media.

passive resistance worked in the last war.

this government is not elected. this government controls public opinion. there is no free media.

in this america, passive resistance is suicide.


In time you'll realize how intelligent and rational these idea's are.


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"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley


Edited by 2FiNiTe (12/17/07 12:38 PM)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7769446 - 12/17/07 12:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The Gov't is elected, whether you agree with the people who elected it or not.

The Government may control YOUR opinion, but the certainly do not control mine.

The media is free to publish anything it wants.

Every single thing you posted in this post is not true.

And your previous post is non-sense too.

Nobody is going to nuke Iran.

The Gov't is not pulling peoples fingernails out to elicit confessions or denunciations.

The United States has not declared war on anyone.

You are simply a fear-mongerer.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7769458 - 12/17/07 12:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Go study some rocks in Trashcanistan because you obviously have your eyes wide the fuck shut.


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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7769469 - 12/17/07 12:48 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'm sorry, I don't believe everything I read on Prisonplanet.

By your own statements, they shouldn't be able to post anything that they have up there.

The huge and evil jack-booted thugs of the Gov't should have come and shut them down for all of their anti-government propoganda.

Yeah.

Right.

Have fun in your Idaho survivalist camp waiting for the Gov't to come steal your guns.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7769500 - 12/17/07 12:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Enhanced Interrogation
Al Jazeera bombing memo
Rendition
Unlawful Combatant
Spying on the United Nations
NSA warrantless surveillance controversy
Free Speech Zones

I got 4 pages of this stuff...do you want me to go on? Not that I think I could possibly pull the wool off your eyes, but hey maybe someone else will learn something.


--------------------
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley


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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7769511 - 12/17/07 12:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GWB would HAVE to come to Congress to get permission for an Iran invasion.




From what I understand, the president has the power to get it done on his own:

"The War Powers Act allows the President to use military forces for 60 days, without a formal declaration of war by Congress. It also grants an additional 30 days upon a formal request by the President, regardless of Congress's agreement with the request."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Powers_Resolution

Does the president usually go by the War Powers Act?

Yes.

In regards to the WPA, most presidents reserve the right to do what they want even though they usually play along. We know that Dick Cheney is notorious for reserving every power he can get for the executive. He doesn't give a damn what Congress says and never did. He views the other branches of government as vassals.

And there is precedent.

President Clinton did NOT follow the War Powers Act with his use of U.S. troops in the 78-day NATO air campaign against Serbia during the Kosovo War.

Do you think we can bomb the hell out of our Iran target list in under 78 days?

I do.


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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7769552 - 12/17/07 01:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

2FiNiTe said:
I got 4 pages of this stuff...do you want me to go on? Not that I think I could possibly pull the wool off your eyes, but hey maybe someone else will learn something.




Listen.

I'm not a right-wing nutjob, okay?

But I'm not a left-wing nutjob either.

I am against many of things that you mention. Waterboarding is ridiculous, and is torture. I don't care what the AG or Bush & Co. say.

Rendition is real, does happen, and is absolutely deplorable. It should be stopped immediately.

The NSA domestic spying program is reprehensible, and again should be stopped immediately.

Yes, this whole administration has been an absolute disaster and I will welcome the end of it with open arms.

But you are trying to make an irrational point with rational arguments. I think even you would admit that none of the stuff you orginally claimed is going on actually is.

Do you really believe that the American government is pulling the fingernails out of Americans who they seized from their house in the middle of the night?

You really believe this is happening?

THEN WHY CLAIM IT IS?

If you think America is so fucking horrible, go somewhere else and tell me how you like it. Yes, the government is flawed. DUH. People are imperfect. There is no government on the face of Earth that does not make bad decisions.

But to think that is 100% bad is idiotic.

I've already said this in one other post today, but the United States has managed to provide the highest standard of living the largest number of people of any government in HISTORY. By almost any definition, the government that we have here is the best in the world.

You think you are censored and oppressed. Try preaching in Russia that the government is censoring you. Ask Anna Politkovskaya how that worked out for her.

Yes, the Government does some terrible things.

But to think its all rotten and that the end is nigh is silly.

Like I said, I'm not a right-wing nutjob.

But I'm not a left-wing nutjob either.

Which is what you sound like.

Your arguments are no more valid than the ones being used in Republi-Fascist forums all over the world to denounce Democrats, Immigrants, and anyone who isn't white.

Blind extremism is moronic, no matter which side of the spectrum you're on


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: zorbman]
    #7769585 - 12/17/07 01:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
President Clinton did NOT follow the War Powers Act with his use of U.S. troops in the 78-day NATO air campaign against Serbia during the Kosovo War.





Do you honestly see any parallels between those two?

That military action was to stop genocide, not invade another country.

You can say GWB is crazy if you want, but the Congress has authorized every single thing he's done as President. He has come to them to ask them permission to invade Afghanistan, invade Iraq, and get money for both endeavors.

I honestly don't believe he's going to buck the trend and start invading places without asking anyone.

The Bush Gov't has been emasculated by the War in Iraq.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7769608 - 12/17/07 01:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

First of all my first two posts are from a story, that gives a grim view of the future. Its completely fictional and in no way am I portraying them as truth. Its defiantly a possibility for the future, and that was the point I was trying to make.

I am defiantly not disputing we as Americans have one of the highest standards of living, because we absolutely do! The point I'm getting at is that b/c of the administration that standard is getting lower and lower. Slowly but surly they have deprived us of our most basic rights as Americans.

I have no problem with America, I've been all over the world and would rather live here than most places I've lived. But on the other hand, if we allow certain administrations to deprive us of our basic rights by means of terror, what then can't be taken?

I am an American and I love America, but admin. like the one in office today is turning this great country into something no country should ever be. A world police force.


--------------------
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley


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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7769647 - 12/17/07 01:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Do you honestly see any parallels between those two?

That military action was to stop genocide, not invade another country.




I am not aware of the WPA specifying in which manner the military should be used. Just that it can be used within a certain time frame. A bombing campaign of Iran can certainly be completed well within that time frame.

Quote:

The Bush Gov't has been emasculated by the War in Iraq.




They certainly have been badly damaged politically but don't kid yourself- they DO have the power to get it done. They don't give a damn what people think when it comes to warfare- that is one of the defining traits of this administration for pete's sake!

The Bush admin will go down in history for its arrogance and incompetence. This mission has their name written all over it.


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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7769725 - 12/17/07 01:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

2FiNiTe said:

I am defiantly not disputing we as Americans have one of the highest standards of living, because we absolutely do!  The point I'm getting at is that b/c of the administration that standard is getting lower and lower.  Slowly but surly they have deprived us of our most basic rights as Americans. 

I have no problem with America, I've been all over the world and would rather live here than most places I've lived.  But on the other hand, if we allow certain administrations to deprive us of our basic rights by means of terror, what then can't be taken? 

I am an American and I love America, but admin. like the one in office today is turning this great country into something no country should ever be.  A world police force.




See?

We are mostly in agreement!  Thats why discussion is k3y.

:laugh:

Quote:

The point I'm getting at is that b/c of the administration that standard is getting lower and lower.  Slowly but surly they have deprived us of our most basic rights as Americans. 




But I disagree with this.  The American standard of living is not falling.

200 years ago Americans were all poor agrarian famers.

100 years ago there was mass unemployment and Americans were actually starving to death.

50 years ago many people literally could not afford a higher education.

I see nothing but progress, both in our past and in our future.

I wholeheartedly believe that America is the greatest country on Earth.  One bad administration, no matter how incompetent, will not change that.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: zorbman]
    #7769738 - 12/17/07 01:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

Do you honestly see any parallels between those two?

That military action was to stop genocide, not invade another country.




I am not aware of the WPA specifying in which manner the military should be used. Just that it can be used within a certain time frame. A bombing campaign of Iran can certainly be completed well within that time frame.

Quote:

The Bush Gov't has been emasculated by the War in Iraq.




They certainly have been badly damaged politically but don't kid yourself- they DO have the power to get it done. They don't give a damn what people think when it comes to warfare- that is one of the defining traits of this administration for pete's sake!

The Bush admin will go down in history for its arrogance and incompetence. This mission has their name written all over it.




But it would not be suicide JUST for Bush. It would be the entire Republican party committing Hara-Kiri right before our eyes. G-Dub is accountable to his own party.

Like I've said previously, this is nobodies best interests.

Not George, Not Israel, Not Iraq, Not Congress, Not Anyone.

Nobody wants this to happen, except maybe Israel.

And they are fucking whack-jobs anyway.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7769877 - 12/17/07 02:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

2FiNiTe writes:

Quote:

The point I'm getting at is that b/c of the administration that standard is getting lower and lower. Slowly but surly they have deprived us of our most basic rights as Americans.




That is a crock of shit.

I'll give you the same challenge I've given everyone else in the last six years or so who spews this nonsense --

Name for the audience some action you as a US citizen could legally take on December 31, 2000 (while Clinton was still prez) that you can't legally take today. If you can't name one, don't feel like a failure, because no one else in this forum has ever been able to either.

And no, rhyming off a long list of vague crap like "Patriot Act, dude" doesn't cut it. I want a specific example of some action you had a right to do before Bush became prez that you no longer have the right to do.

This ridiculous over-exaggeration to the point where you talk not of restrictions, or loss of freedom, but instead spew total crap like "most basic rights" would be hilarious if it weren't so sad. Not only have your "most basic rights" not been deprived, neither have your "least basic rights", or any rights at all, for that matter.

If you want people to take you seriously, you've got to give at least a glancing acknowledgment of reality every now and then.


And by the way, the forum rules require you to provide a link to quotes you cut and paste. That fictional story you posted was from http://bethehammer.net/





Phred


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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Phred]
    #7769907 - 12/17/07 02:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

To take rights isn't the point man. Your completely missing it! Taking rights serves no purpose for a government except ruling out reelection. Its the ability to have the power to take rights when someone doesn't fall in line.

I directly haven't lost any rights, neither have the majority. The point is, if they see fit, they can take any and all rights they want away from you. Regardless of proof or a court. If they see fit, they could kidnap any of us, take us to a foreign country and torture us legally. Do you think a ANYONE should have the power to do this with no just means?


--------------------
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley


Edited by 2FiNiTe (12/17/07 02:26 PM)


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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7769927 - 12/17/07 02:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Now you're back to craziness.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7769940 - 12/17/07 02:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Now you're back to craziness.




Maybe so...This is my opinion and I have every right to it. We're obviously divided in thought and neither side is going to convert the other so whats the point. I've said what I think and if you wish I'll continue defending my beliefs.



In short all I'm trying to say here is that in recent times, our gov't has rarely had more power over its subjects than now. I'm not saying its never been worse b/c we all know there have been much worse times in American History. But its bad, if you don't think so your the crazy one. Regardless of the difference in why we think its bad, we can agree that this time in history won't be regarded as America's "golden age".


As for the original question, I'm sure you guys can guess. I'm pretty darn sure we'll be in Iran before the close of the decade.


--------------------
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley


Edited by 2FiNiTe (12/17/07 02:46 PM)


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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7769989 - 12/17/07 02:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

2Finite said:
I directly haven't lost any rights, neither have the majority. The point is, if they see fit, they can take any and all rights they want away from you. Regardless of proof or a court. If they see fit, they could kidnap any of us, take us to a foreign country and torture us legally. Do you think a ANYONE should have the power to do this with no just means?




I have to agree here. The grand majority of us haven't lost any rights, and will not, but the fact of the matter is that if the government wants someone gone, they label them a terrorist. Period. If you are "suspected" of terrorism, you end up in a secret CIA prison with no trial and no rights. I do not think this has been that much of a problem yet, but one cannot be so trusting and assume that no one will ever abuse this power in a tyrannical manner.


--------------------

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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7770054 - 12/17/07 03:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

2FiNiTe writes:

Quote:

To take rights isn't the point man. Your completely missing it!




Ah. So when you wrote -- "Slowly but surly they have deprived us of our most basic rights as Americans," you didn't mean that they had deprived us of any rights. How foolish of me to have read what you actually wrote rather than what was in your mind.



Phred


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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Phred]
    #7770075 - 12/17/07 03:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Get off your horse man! It would appear talking down to people gets you off. I'm not gonna argue with you about what I said. But instead of addressing what I actually said, your simply pointing out my contradicting grammar.

Which means nothing to anyone here. Your just being more of a dick now and your not even talking about anything. The whole "Crock of Shit" thing you said I didn't even blink at b/c you made a pretty valid point, but now its obvious you just wanna be a dick.


--------------------
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley


Edited by 2FiNiTe (12/17/07 03:18 PM)


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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7770140 - 12/17/07 03:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I'm not gonna argue with you about what I said. But instead of addressing what I actually said, your simply pointing out my contradicting grammar.




Actually, I did address what you actually said, not what you thought you said or meant to say or. You made an unsupported and incorrect assertion. You got called on it. Now you're acting all whiney and butthurt and stuff.

And no, there was nothing contradictory about your grammar. It was quite clear, and pretty hard to misinterpret. When someone says

"Slowly but surly they have deprived us of our most basic rights as Americans"

it's not as if the readers need a graduate degree in semantics or rhetoric to decipher it.

The rest of your stuff is just as much bullshit as that first sentence I pointed out, too. Now you're claiming that

Quote:

...if they see fit, they can take any and all rights they want away from you."




Bullshit. Which piece of legislation passed by the US Congress and signed into law by Bush takes away any right you had prior to Jan of 2001? I want specifics.

Quote:

Regardless of proof or a court.




More bullshit. Which piece of legislation passed by the US Congress and signed into law by Bush takes away your right to be brought before a US court? I want specifics.

Quote:

If they see fit, they could kidnap any of us, take us to a foreign country and torture us legally.




Still more bullshit. Which piece of legislation passed by the US Congress and signed into law by Bush authorizes the US government to seize American citizens, take them to another country, and torture them? I want specifics.

Those are some mighty serious (not to mention patently absurd) allegations to be making without a shred of evidence to back them up -- just your say so. Or did you get your grammar wrong on these ones too?



Phred


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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Phred]
    #7770147 - 12/17/07 03:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup: Stroke that ego buddy.

Actually I give up, your set in your ideas.  I'm not going to rattle them anymore.  Be the better man and just let it go, your not convincing me of anything nor am I you. 



If I see shit and smell shit, I don't need to step in it to know theres shit there.  We've all read the Patriot Act, War Powers Act, Extraordinary Rendition, Presidential Powers Act, and so on and so fourth.  You obviously see these as necessary sacrifices for freedom or something to that end, whereas I see them as something completely different.

I'm going to let it end there, because I'm sure I sound as crazy to you as you do to me.

You should be a lawyer by the way. 


--------------------
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley


Edited by 2FiNiTe (12/17/07 03:56 PM)


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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Phred]
    #7770571 - 12/17/07 05:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
2FiNiTe writes:

Quote:

The point I'm getting at is that b/c of the administration that standard is getting lower and lower. Slowly but surly they have deprived us of our most basic rights as Americans.




That is a crock of shit.

I'll give you the same challenge I've given everyone else in the last six years or so who spews this nonsense --

Name for the audience some action you as a US citizen could legally take on December 31, 2000 (while Clinton was still prez) that you can't legally take today. If you can't name one, don't feel like a failure, because no one else in this forum has ever been able to either.

And no, rhyming off a long list of vague crap like "Patriot Act, dude" doesn't cut it. I want a specific example of some action you had a right to do before Bush became prez that you no longer have the right to do.

This ridiculous over-exaggeration to the point where you talk not of restrictions, or loss of freedom, but instead spew total crap like "most basic rights" would be hilarious if it weren't so sad. Not only have your "most basic rights" not been deprived, neither have your "least basic rights", or any rights at all, for that matter.

If you want people to take you seriously, you've got to give at least a glancing acknowledgment of reality every now and then.


And by the way, the forum rules require you to provide a link to quotes you cut and paste. That fictional story you posted was from http://bethehammer.net/





Phred




Was the NSA data mining all phone and internet transmissions with the help of
AT&T and other carriers under Clinton?


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7770689 - 12/17/07 05:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with silversoul

These guys aren't that stupid, right? RIGHT?!


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7770781 - 12/17/07 06:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

2FiNiTe said:
:thumbup: Stroke that ego buddy.

Actually I give up, your set in your ideas.  I'm not going to rattle them anymore.  Be the better man and just let it go, your not convincing me of anything nor am I you. 



If I see shit and smell shit, I don't need to step in it to know theres shit there.  We've all read the Patriot Act, War Powers Act, Extraordinary Rendition, Presidential Powers Act, and so on and so fourth.  You obviously see these as necessary sacrifices for freedom or something to that end, whereas I see them as something completely different.

I'm going to let it end there, because I'm sure I sound as crazy to you as you do to me.

You should be a lawyer by the way. 




And you're not set in YOUR ways? What a crock of shit.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
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Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN Flag
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #7770843 - 12/17/07 06:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Well, with the NIE report theirs no point in any saber rattling on any side. Iran was bluffing us the entire time and now they are securing nuclear fuel shipments from Russia.

Saudis,Israel and other gulf states are quite dissapointed that we are going to end our gradual escalation on Iran, they think Iran will continue starting shit in Lebanon and other gulf states.

Im not saying Israel couldnt possibly attack Iran but I certainly dont foresee a war with the US as of yet.


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: afoaf]
    #7772915 - 12/18/07 06:29 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

afoaf writes:

Quote:

Was the NSA data mining all phone and internet transmissions with the help of
AT&T and other carriers under Clinton?




Unknown. But let's presume they weren't. What's your point?



Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7772931 - 12/18/07 06:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

2FiNiTe writes:

Quote:

Actually I give up, your set in your ideas. I'm not going to rattle them anymore. Be the better man and just let it go, your not convincing me of anything nor am I you.




So you are unable to support your claims? Didn't think so.

As I said before, don't feel bad about your inability to support them. No one else posting in this forum in the last six years has been able to support them either, so you are certainly not alone in your failure.

Quote:

We've all read the Patriot Act, War Powers Act, Extraordinary Rendition, Presidential Powers Act, and so on and so fourth.




No, we haven't all read them. At best, some of the posters here have read of them. Not the same thing at all. It's one thing to arrive at an opinion of a piece of legislation after having read the legislation, and quite another thing to arrive at an opinion after having read what someone else claims the legislation says (see the recent idiocy here over what Bill 1995 actually says vs what the moonbats claim it says as just one example).

I myself have read most of the Patriot Act (I will admit there are several chunks of it I skimmed rather than read word by word) but I'd be willing to bet a very large sum of money indeed that I'm the only regular poster here who has done so.

None of the legislation you have mentioned provides a mechanism for the US government to "take any and all rights they want away from you". None of the legislation you have mentioned provides a mechanism for the US government to takes away your right to be brought before a US court. None of the legislation you have mentioned provides a mechanism for the US government to "kidnap any of us, take us to a foreign country and torture us legally."

Have you read any of the legislation you mentioned? No, you haven't, despite your claim that "We've all read the Patriot Act..."

Oh, wait. I forgot for a moment how you operate. Let me just review things here for a second. Okay --

When you wrote, 'We've all read the Patriot Act, the War Powers Act, etc." you didn't really mean to say we've all read them. Or even that you and I have read them. Or even that you have read them. You were just indulging in "contradictory grammar". If you had really read them, you'd know already that none of them provide mechanisms for doing any of the stuff you claim the government can do.

Quote:

You should be a lawyer by the way.




Why? Because I ask people to substantiate their wild ass claims? If that's the only criterion, then pretty much every regular poster to this forum should be a lawyer.





Phred


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Phred]
    #7772940 - 12/18/07 07:08 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> We've all read the Patriot Act

Yeah right... have you seen how thick the patriot act is? Very few people have the stamina to read 342 pages of "legal speak", including the people that voted for the thing.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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