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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: zorbman]
    #7769738 - 12/17/07 01:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

Do you honestly see any parallels between those two?

That military action was to stop genocide, not invade another country.




I am not aware of the WPA specifying in which manner the military should be used. Just that it can be used within a certain time frame. A bombing campaign of Iran can certainly be completed well within that time frame.

Quote:

The Bush Gov't has been emasculated by the War in Iraq.




They certainly have been badly damaged politically but don't kid yourself- they DO have the power to get it done. They don't give a damn what people think when it comes to warfare- that is one of the defining traits of this administration for pete's sake!

The Bush admin will go down in history for its arrogance and incompetence. This mission has their name written all over it.




But it would not be suicide JUST for Bush. It would be the entire Republican party committing Hara-Kiri right before our eyes. G-Dub is accountable to his own party.

Like I've said previously, this is nobodies best interests.

Not George, Not Israel, Not Iraq, Not Congress, Not Anyone.

Nobody wants this to happen, except maybe Israel.

And they are fucking whack-jobs anyway.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7769877 - 12/17/07 02:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

2FiNiTe writes:

Quote:

The point I'm getting at is that b/c of the administration that standard is getting lower and lower. Slowly but surly they have deprived us of our most basic rights as Americans.




That is a crock of shit.

I'll give you the same challenge I've given everyone else in the last six years or so who spews this nonsense --

Name for the audience some action you as a US citizen could legally take on December 31, 2000 (while Clinton was still prez) that you can't legally take today. If you can't name one, don't feel like a failure, because no one else in this forum has ever been able to either.

And no, rhyming off a long list of vague crap like "Patriot Act, dude" doesn't cut it. I want a specific example of some action you had a right to do before Bush became prez that you no longer have the right to do.

This ridiculous over-exaggeration to the point where you talk not of restrictions, or loss of freedom, but instead spew total crap like "most basic rights" would be hilarious if it weren't so sad. Not only have your "most basic rights" not been deprived, neither have your "least basic rights", or any rights at all, for that matter.

If you want people to take you seriously, you've got to give at least a glancing acknowledgment of reality every now and then.


And by the way, the forum rules require you to provide a link to quotes you cut and paste. That fictional story you posted was from http://bethehammer.net/





Phred


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Offline2FiNiTe
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Phred]
    #7769907 - 12/17/07 02:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

To take rights isn't the point man. Your completely missing it! Taking rights serves no purpose for a government except ruling out reelection. Its the ability to have the power to take rights when someone doesn't fall in line.

I directly haven't lost any rights, neither have the majority. The point is, if they see fit, they can take any and all rights they want away from you. Regardless of proof or a court. If they see fit, they could kidnap any of us, take us to a foreign country and torture us legally. Do you think a ANYONE should have the power to do this with no just means?


--------------------
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley


Edited by 2FiNiTe (12/17/07 02:26 PM)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7769927 - 12/17/07 02:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Now you're back to craziness.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offline2FiNiTe
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7769940 - 12/17/07 02:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Now you're back to craziness.




Maybe so...This is my opinion and I have every right to it. We're obviously divided in thought and neither side is going to convert the other so whats the point. I've said what I think and if you wish I'll continue defending my beliefs.



In short all I'm trying to say here is that in recent times, our gov't has rarely had more power over its subjects than now. I'm not saying its never been worse b/c we all know there have been much worse times in American History. But its bad, if you don't think so your the crazy one. Regardless of the difference in why we think its bad, we can agree that this time in history won't be regarded as America's "golden age".


As for the original question, I'm sure you guys can guess. I'm pretty darn sure we'll be in Iran before the close of the decade.


--------------------
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley


Edited by 2FiNiTe (12/17/07 02:46 PM)


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InvisibleSoY
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7769989 - 12/17/07 02:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

2Finite said:
I directly haven't lost any rights, neither have the majority. The point is, if they see fit, they can take any and all rights they want away from you. Regardless of proof or a court. If they see fit, they could kidnap any of us, take us to a foreign country and torture us legally. Do you think a ANYONE should have the power to do this with no just means?




I have to agree here. The grand majority of us haven't lost any rights, and will not, but the fact of the matter is that if the government wants someone gone, they label them a terrorist. Period. If you are "suspected" of terrorism, you end up in a secret CIA prison with no trial and no rights. I do not think this has been that much of a problem yet, but one cannot be so trusting and assume that no one will ever abuse this power in a tyrannical manner.


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7770054 - 12/17/07 03:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

2FiNiTe writes:

Quote:

To take rights isn't the point man. Your completely missing it!




Ah. So when you wrote -- "Slowly but surly they have deprived us of our most basic rights as Americans," you didn't mean that they had deprived us of any rights. How foolish of me to have read what you actually wrote rather than what was in your mind.



Phred


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Offline2FiNiTe
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Phred]
    #7770075 - 12/17/07 03:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Get off your horse man! It would appear talking down to people gets you off. I'm not gonna argue with you about what I said. But instead of addressing what I actually said, your simply pointing out my contradicting grammar.

Which means nothing to anyone here. Your just being more of a dick now and your not even talking about anything. The whole "Crock of Shit" thing you said I didn't even blink at b/c you made a pretty valid point, but now its obvious you just wanna be a dick.


--------------------
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley


Edited by 2FiNiTe (12/17/07 03:18 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7770140 - 12/17/07 03:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I'm not gonna argue with you about what I said. But instead of addressing what I actually said, your simply pointing out my contradicting grammar.




Actually, I did address what you actually said, not what you thought you said or meant to say or. You made an unsupported and incorrect assertion. You got called on it. Now you're acting all whiney and butthurt and stuff.

And no, there was nothing contradictory about your grammar. It was quite clear, and pretty hard to misinterpret. When someone says

"Slowly but surly they have deprived us of our most basic rights as Americans"

it's not as if the readers need a graduate degree in semantics or rhetoric to decipher it.

The rest of your stuff is just as much bullshit as that first sentence I pointed out, too. Now you're claiming that

Quote:

...if they see fit, they can take any and all rights they want away from you."




Bullshit. Which piece of legislation passed by the US Congress and signed into law by Bush takes away any right you had prior to Jan of 2001? I want specifics.

Quote:

Regardless of proof or a court.




More bullshit. Which piece of legislation passed by the US Congress and signed into law by Bush takes away your right to be brought before a US court? I want specifics.

Quote:

If they see fit, they could kidnap any of us, take us to a foreign country and torture us legally.




Still more bullshit. Which piece of legislation passed by the US Congress and signed into law by Bush authorizes the US government to seize American citizens, take them to another country, and torture them? I want specifics.

Those are some mighty serious (not to mention patently absurd) allegations to be making without a shred of evidence to back them up -- just your say so. Or did you get your grammar wrong on these ones too?



Phred


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Offline2FiNiTe
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Phred]
    #7770147 - 12/17/07 03:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup: Stroke that ego buddy.

Actually I give up, your set in your ideas.  I'm not going to rattle them anymore.  Be the better man and just let it go, your not convincing me of anything nor am I you. 



If I see shit and smell shit, I don't need to step in it to know theres shit there.  We've all read the Patriot Act, War Powers Act, Extraordinary Rendition, Presidential Powers Act, and so on and so fourth.  You obviously see these as necessary sacrifices for freedom or something to that end, whereas I see them as something completely different.

I'm going to let it end there, because I'm sure I sound as crazy to you as you do to me.

You should be a lawyer by the way. 


--------------------
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley


Edited by 2FiNiTe (12/17/07 03:56 PM)


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Phred]
    #7770571 - 12/17/07 05:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
2FiNiTe writes:

Quote:

The point I'm getting at is that b/c of the administration that standard is getting lower and lower. Slowly but surly they have deprived us of our most basic rights as Americans.




That is a crock of shit.

I'll give you the same challenge I've given everyone else in the last six years or so who spews this nonsense --

Name for the audience some action you as a US citizen could legally take on December 31, 2000 (while Clinton was still prez) that you can't legally take today. If you can't name one, don't feel like a failure, because no one else in this forum has ever been able to either.

And no, rhyming off a long list of vague crap like "Patriot Act, dude" doesn't cut it. I want a specific example of some action you had a right to do before Bush became prez that you no longer have the right to do.

This ridiculous over-exaggeration to the point where you talk not of restrictions, or loss of freedom, but instead spew total crap like "most basic rights" would be hilarious if it weren't so sad. Not only have your "most basic rights" not been deprived, neither have your "least basic rights", or any rights at all, for that matter.

If you want people to take you seriously, you've got to give at least a glancing acknowledgment of reality every now and then.


And by the way, the forum rules require you to provide a link to quotes you cut and paste. That fictional story you posted was from http://bethehammer.net/





Phred




Was the NSA data mining all phone and internet transmissions with the help of
AT&T and other carriers under Clinton?


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7770689 - 12/17/07 05:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with silversoul

These guys aren't that stupid, right? RIGHT?!


--------------------
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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7770781 - 12/17/07 06:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

2FiNiTe said:
:thumbup: Stroke that ego buddy.

Actually I give up, your set in your ideas.  I'm not going to rattle them anymore.  Be the better man and just let it go, your not convincing me of anything nor am I you. 



If I see shit and smell shit, I don't need to step in it to know theres shit there.  We've all read the Patriot Act, War Powers Act, Extraordinary Rendition, Presidential Powers Act, and so on and so fourth.  You obviously see these as necessary sacrifices for freedom or something to that end, whereas I see them as something completely different.

I'm going to let it end there, because I'm sure I sound as crazy to you as you do to me.

You should be a lawyer by the way. 




And you're not set in YOUR ways? What a crock of shit.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #7770843 - 12/17/07 06:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Well, with the NIE report theirs no point in any saber rattling on any side. Iran was bluffing us the entire time and now they are securing nuclear fuel shipments from Russia.

Saudis,Israel and other gulf states are quite dissapointed that we are going to end our gradual escalation on Iran, they think Iran will continue starting shit in Lebanon and other gulf states.

Im not saying Israel couldnt possibly attack Iran but I certainly dont foresee a war with the US as of yet.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: afoaf]
    #7772915 - 12/18/07 06:29 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

afoaf writes:

Quote:

Was the NSA data mining all phone and internet transmissions with the help of
AT&T and other carriers under Clinton?




Unknown. But let's presume they weren't. What's your point?



Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7772931 - 12/18/07 06:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

2FiNiTe writes:

Quote:

Actually I give up, your set in your ideas. I'm not going to rattle them anymore. Be the better man and just let it go, your not convincing me of anything nor am I you.




So you are unable to support your claims? Didn't think so.

As I said before, don't feel bad about your inability to support them. No one else posting in this forum in the last six years has been able to support them either, so you are certainly not alone in your failure.

Quote:

We've all read the Patriot Act, War Powers Act, Extraordinary Rendition, Presidential Powers Act, and so on and so fourth.




No, we haven't all read them. At best, some of the posters here have read of them. Not the same thing at all. It's one thing to arrive at an opinion of a piece of legislation after having read the legislation, and quite another thing to arrive at an opinion after having read what someone else claims the legislation says (see the recent idiocy here over what Bill 1995 actually says vs what the moonbats claim it says as just one example).

I myself have read most of the Patriot Act (I will admit there are several chunks of it I skimmed rather than read word by word) but I'd be willing to bet a very large sum of money indeed that I'm the only regular poster here who has done so.

None of the legislation you have mentioned provides a mechanism for the US government to "take any and all rights they want away from you". None of the legislation you have mentioned provides a mechanism for the US government to takes away your right to be brought before a US court. None of the legislation you have mentioned provides a mechanism for the US government to "kidnap any of us, take us to a foreign country and torture us legally."

Have you read any of the legislation you mentioned? No, you haven't, despite your claim that "We've all read the Patriot Act..."

Oh, wait. I forgot for a moment how you operate. Let me just review things here for a second. Okay --

When you wrote, 'We've all read the Patriot Act, the War Powers Act, etc." you didn't really mean to say we've all read them. Or even that you and I have read them. Or even that you have read them. You were just indulging in "contradictory grammar". If you had really read them, you'd know already that none of them provide mechanisms for doing any of the stuff you claim the government can do.

Quote:

You should be a lawyer by the way.




Why? Because I ask people to substantiate their wild ass claims? If that's the only criterion, then pretty much every regular poster to this forum should be a lawyer.





Phred


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: Phred]
    #7772940 - 12/18/07 07:08 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> We've all read the Patriot Act

Yeah right... have you seen how thick the patriot act is? Very few people have the stamina to read 342 pages of "legal speak", including the people that voted for the thing.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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