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afoaf
CEO DBK?



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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: BrAiN]
#7768850 - 12/17/07 10:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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no. bilderberg has already called it off.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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zorbman
blarrr



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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: BrAiN]
#7768874 - 12/17/07 10:39 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I give about 60-40 odds of war with Iran sometime next year. The odds were higher before the Intelligence Estimate was revealed but since when did the Bush zoo crew let facts stand in their way of starting a war?
You have to read the neocon's game plan to understand that creative destruction is their method of enacting change in the Middle East.
From their POV they don't want to leave this to some other administration- they want to act while they are still in power. Their ideology has been thoroughly discredited by most normal people and there is no guarantee even a future Republican president would fulfill their wishes.
They don't need anyone's permission to attack Iran. The president has all the authority he needs to act. The way I see it playing out is Israel launching air strikes first as they did before in 1981 on Iraq's nuclear reactor at Osirak. (Consider that they did this even though the US was supporting Iraq at the time in their war against Iran).
Both the US and Israel could get what they want:
Israel's new government needs to establish themselves as tough guys since they are viewed as weak after their recent confrontation with Hezbollah. An Israeli attack would give them the reputation they seek while providing cover to the US which cannot attack first as a practical matter. Since Iran would undoubtedly respond with an attack against our ally, Israel, the US would then be "forced" to respond with an attack of its own.
Perfect.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
Edited by zorbman (12/17/07 10:46 AM)
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afoaf
CEO DBK?



Registered: 11/08/02
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: zorbman]
#7768912 - 12/17/07 10:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'll bet you $50 that we have not gone to war with Iran by this time next year...
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: afoaf]
#7768938 - 12/17/07 10:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah, I would take that bet in a second.
I mean, your side.
Not the opposite.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: zorbman]
#7768955 - 12/17/07 11:02 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zorbman said:
Israel's new government needs to establish themselves as tough guys since they are viewed as weak after their recent confrontation with Hezbollah. An Israeli attack would give them the reputation they seek while providing cover to the US which cannot attack first as a practical matter. Since Iran would undoubtedly respond with an attack against our ally, Israel, the US would then be "forced" to respond with an attack of its own.
Perfect.
Perfectly idiotic.
The United States, above all else, does NOT WANT Israel to attack ANY Muslim country.
While we support Israel with vast arms sales and international aid, we do not want to be on the same side as them in any shooting war. The United States is probably the only moderating force on Israeli power.
Do you know how bad they wanted to kick Saddam's ass in Gulf War I when he was raining scuds down on Tel-Aviv? They would have loved to take out those scud sites, and probably could have done it. But we made massive promises to stop that.
Washington realizes that as bad as our image is with the Arab populace, it would be exponentially worse if there were a shooting war between Israel and ANY Islamic state with the US as an active combatant.
This will NOT happen.
Either the US will attack Iran unilaterally, the Israeli's will attack Iran unilaterally, or there will be no attack.
The one option that is MOST illogical is the one that you proposed. It is against everyones best interests.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Yes, it would indeed be idotic but that has never stopped this administration before.
Israel and the US need not attack jointly at all. Their main goal is that it get done. The specifics are relatively unimportant.
I see it happening next spring mainly in the form of air strikes.
Also consider that most of Iran's oil fields are located in a narrow strip along the Iran-Iraq border. The administration could argue that Iran is launching attacks from there and seize those oil assets.
Could the US conquer and hold the whole country?
No.
But they could possibly seize and hold a strategically important region within that country. It would be a gamble but Bush is known for making bold, even reckless moves.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: zorbman]
#7769411 - 12/17/07 12:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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You really think the Republican's in Congress would let Bush launch a war 6 months before the general election?
You can say what you want about King George, or whatever. I hate the guy too. But the fact is that Congress did give authorization for the Iraq war.
GWB would HAVE to come to Congress to get permission for an Iran invasion. There is 100% no chance of him taking such an action without congressional approval.
Do you really believe they'd give it to him?
The strongest instinct that a congress-person has is that of self-preservation. The GOP'ers in Congress are already doing everything they can to distance themselves from G-Dub and his spectacularly failed foreign policy.
Nobody is going to join him in a Politically-Suicidal War on Iran. And this doesn't even take into account that the Democrats are a majority in both houses.
It is just not going to happen.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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2FiNiTe
ConsideratlyKilling Me



Registered: 06/12/06
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: zorbman]
#7769415 - 12/17/07 12:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Visions from the future:
kill people.
start there. everything else is posturing.
i killed people in post-iran after we dropped the bomb on tehran. they told me i was protecting america.
this is a war. the government of the united states has declared and is fighting a war against the people of the united states and people all over the world.
i kill people. that’s what war is.
when i say government of the united states is at war with you this is not propaganda. i know because i was them. i was the guy who broke down your door at four AM and did things to you with pliers until we knew the names of your friends.
understand the situation. resistance to this government–in any way--is not an act of free speech or a way to make your voice heard or a chance to impress your friends with your principles. resistance is treason and they will kill you for it.
that will only change if they lose the war. losing a war happens when one side has suffered so much that they no longer have the will to fight. because of parepin and neurochips and fear–especially fear--we are currently losing that will to fight. we are losing the war.
suffering is the point. terror is the point. it is not enough to be willing to die for your country. you must be willing to kill for your country as well. that is what war means.
i kill people. so should you.
-------------------- "Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living." General Omar N. Bradley
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
#7769418 - 12/17/07 12:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Have anything rational or intelligent to add?
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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2FiNiTe
ConsideratlyKilling Me



Registered: 06/12/06
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Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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in the 20th century the war for civil liberties in america was fought against a democratically elected government under constant pressure from public opinion and a free media.
passive resistance worked in the last war.
this government is not elected. this government controls public opinion. there is no free media.
in this america, passive resistance is suicide.
In time you'll realize how intelligent and rational these idea's are.
-------------------- "Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living." General Omar N. Bradley
Edited by 2FiNiTe (12/17/07 12:38 PM)
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
#7769446 - 12/17/07 12:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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The Gov't is elected, whether you agree with the people who elected it or not.
The Government may control YOUR opinion, but the certainly do not control mine.
The media is free to publish anything it wants.
Every single thing you posted in this post is not true.
And your previous post is non-sense too.
Nobody is going to nuke Iran.
The Gov't is not pulling peoples fingernails out to elicit confessions or denunciations.
The United States has not declared war on anyone.
You are simply a fear-mongerer.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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2FiNiTe
ConsideratlyKilling Me



Registered: 06/12/06
Posts: 1,635
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Go study some rocks in Trashcanistan because you obviously have your eyes wide the fuck shut.
-------------------- "Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living." General Omar N. Bradley
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
#7769469 - 12/17/07 12:48 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm sorry, I don't believe everything I read on Prisonplanet.
By your own statements, they shouldn't be able to post anything that they have up there.
The huge and evil jack-booted thugs of the Gov't should have come and shut them down for all of their anti-government propoganda.
Yeah.
Right.
Have fun in your Idaho survivalist camp waiting for the Gov't to come steal your guns.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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2FiNiTe
ConsideratlyKilling Me



Registered: 06/12/06
Posts: 1,635
Loc: New England
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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Enhanced Interrogation Al Jazeera bombing memo Rendition Unlawful Combatant Spying on the United Nations NSA warrantless surveillance controversy Free Speech Zones
I got 4 pages of this stuff...do you want me to go on? Not that I think I could possibly pull the wool off your eyes, but hey maybe someone else will learn something.
-------------------- "Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living." General Omar N. Bradley
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Quote:
GWB would HAVE to come to Congress to get permission for an Iran invasion.
From what I understand, the president has the power to get it done on his own:
"The War Powers Act allows the President to use military forces for 60 days, without a formal declaration of war by Congress. It also grants an additional 30 days upon a formal request by the President, regardless of Congress's agreement with the request."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Powers_Resolution
Does the president usually go by the War Powers Act?
Yes.
In regards to the WPA, most presidents reserve the right to do what they want even though they usually play along. We know that Dick Cheney is notorious for reserving every power he can get for the executive. He doesn't give a damn what Congress says and never did. He views the other branches of government as vassals.
And there is precedent.
President Clinton did NOT follow the War Powers Act with his use of U.S. troops in the 78-day NATO air campaign against Serbia during the Kosovo War.
Do you think we can bomb the hell out of our Iran target list in under 78 days?
I do.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
#7769552 - 12/17/07 01:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
2FiNiTe said: I got 4 pages of this stuff...do you want me to go on? Not that I think I could possibly pull the wool off your eyes, but hey maybe someone else will learn something.
Listen.
I'm not a right-wing nutjob, okay?
But I'm not a left-wing nutjob either.
I am against many of things that you mention. Waterboarding is ridiculous, and is torture. I don't care what the AG or Bush & Co. say.
Rendition is real, does happen, and is absolutely deplorable. It should be stopped immediately.
The NSA domestic spying program is reprehensible, and again should be stopped immediately.
Yes, this whole administration has been an absolute disaster and I will welcome the end of it with open arms.
But you are trying to make an irrational point with rational arguments. I think even you would admit that none of the stuff you orginally claimed is going on actually is.
Do you really believe that the American government is pulling the fingernails out of Americans who they seized from their house in the middle of the night?
You really believe this is happening?
THEN WHY CLAIM IT IS?
If you think America is so fucking horrible, go somewhere else and tell me how you like it. Yes, the government is flawed. DUH. People are imperfect. There is no government on the face of Earth that does not make bad decisions.
But to think that is 100% bad is idiotic.
I've already said this in one other post today, but the United States has managed to provide the highest standard of living the largest number of people of any government in HISTORY. By almost any definition, the government that we have here is the best in the world.
You think you are censored and oppressed. Try preaching in Russia that the government is censoring you. Ask Anna Politkovskaya how that worked out for her.
Yes, the Government does some terrible things.
But to think its all rotten and that the end is nigh is silly.
Like I said, I'm not a right-wing nutjob.
But I'm not a left-wing nutjob either.
Which is what you sound like.
Your arguments are no more valid than the ones being used in Republi-Fascist forums all over the world to denounce Democrats, Immigrants, and anyone who isn't white.
Blind extremism is moronic, no matter which side of the spectrum you're on
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: zorbman]
#7769585 - 12/17/07 01:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zorbman said: President Clinton did NOT follow the War Powers Act with his use of U.S. troops in the 78-day NATO air campaign against Serbia during the Kosovo War.
Do you honestly see any parallels between those two?
That military action was to stop genocide, not invade another country.
You can say GWB is crazy if you want, but the Congress has authorized every single thing he's done as President. He has come to them to ask them permission to invade Afghanistan, invade Iraq, and get money for both endeavors.
I honestly don't believe he's going to buck the trend and start invading places without asking anyone.
The Bush Gov't has been emasculated by the War in Iraq.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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2FiNiTe
ConsideratlyKilling Me



Registered: 06/12/06
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Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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First of all my first two posts are from a story, that gives a grim view of the future. Its completely fictional and in no way am I portraying them as truth. Its defiantly a possibility for the future, and that was the point I was trying to make.
I am defiantly not disputing we as Americans have one of the highest standards of living, because we absolutely do! The point I'm getting at is that b/c of the administration that standard is getting lower and lower. Slowly but surly they have deprived us of our most basic rights as Americans.
I have no problem with America, I've been all over the world and would rather live here than most places I've lived. But on the other hand, if we allow certain administrations to deprive us of our basic rights by means of terror, what then can't be taken?
I am an American and I love America, but admin. like the one in office today is turning this great country into something no country should ever be. A world police force.
-------------------- "Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living." General Omar N. Bradley
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Quote:
Do you honestly see any parallels between those two?
That military action was to stop genocide, not invade another country.
I am not aware of the WPA specifying in which manner the military should be used. Just that it can be used within a certain time frame. A bombing campaign of Iran can certainly be completed well within that time frame.
Quote:
The Bush Gov't has been emasculated by the War in Iraq.
They certainly have been badly damaged politically but don't kid yourself- they DO have the power to get it done. They don't give a damn what people think when it comes to warfare- that is one of the defining traits of this administration for pete's sake!
The Bush admin will go down in history for its arrogance and incompetence. This mission has their name written all over it.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: Are we going to war with Iran? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
#7769725 - 12/17/07 01:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
2FiNiTe said:
I am defiantly not disputing we as Americans have one of the highest standards of living, because we absolutely do! The point I'm getting at is that b/c of the administration that standard is getting lower and lower. Slowly but surly they have deprived us of our most basic rights as Americans.
I have no problem with America, I've been all over the world and would rather live here than most places I've lived. But on the other hand, if we allow certain administrations to deprive us of our basic rights by means of terror, what then can't be taken?
I am an American and I love America, but admin. like the one in office today is turning this great country into something no country should ever be. A world police force.
See?
We are mostly in agreement! Thats why discussion is k3y.

Quote:
The point I'm getting at is that b/c of the administration that standard is getting lower and lower. Slowly but surly they have deprived us of our most basic rights as Americans.
But I disagree with this. The American standard of living is not falling.
200 years ago Americans were all poor agrarian famers.
100 years ago there was mass unemployment and Americans were actually starving to death.
50 years ago many people literally could not afford a higher education.
I see nothing but progress, both in our past and in our future.
I wholeheartedly believe that America is the greatest country on Earth. One bad administration, no matter how incompetent, will not change that.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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