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Vyrk
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Registered: 12/12/07
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Question LC filters.
#7761077 - 12/15/07 07:43 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't wanna be bored asking this, but no one post talks about why use the filter in the LC.
Some post use micropore tapes, other use Tyvek filters, I can consider only in the case of the Filter disks that they allow to pull out all the CO2, but, In case of a hole with a micropore filter?... and in both cases they have success...
What should happen if I use not any kind of filter?... Should this be a problem?, and why?, Acidification of the media??...
Pleace, somebody say what he thinks or, if someone has tried without air filter, please post!.
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FooMan
Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: Vyrk]
#7761088 - 12/15/07 07:51 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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The filter is to allow gas exchange. LC's emit CO2 just like BRF/verm jars and that CO2 needs a place to go. The fancy filter discs are a little nicer than the tyvek or micropore tape because you can shake them by hand without wetting the filter and creating a vector for contamination. You can avoid using a filter altogether by injecting fresh air into your LC every couple of days. Check out the LC jars Mycopath sells for an idea of what I'm talking about.
-------------------- Quick WBS Prep
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DontPlay
Yeah Science!
Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 750
Loc: On Land most of the time....
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: Vyrk]
#7761090 - 12/15/07 07:52 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I guess im wondering if the only reason for the need of gas exchange is to battle contams like cobweb mold ? If you were using a airpump to pump air into a flask of water inside your grow chamber would that take care of it?
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MYSTIQUE
Say Hi to the elves for me.
Registered: 04/28/07
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: DontPlay]
#7761093 - 12/15/07 07:54 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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hahahahaha if you can keep a dry layer of verm in a lc ill give you a million bucks.
-------------------- Dont know what the fuck I just said? READ THIS http://www.shroomery.org/5122/The-Shroomery-Mushroom-Glossary I ain't a hippy but I'm covered in dirt Sippin lots of mushroom tea in a tye-dye shirt Chasin' the Grateful Dead, no shoes on my feet Beggin' in the parking lot for something to eat, DO NOT USE FIRE IN YOUR GLOVE BOX!!!!!!!
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DontPlay
Yeah Science!
Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 750
Loc: On Land most of the time....
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: MYSTIQUE]
#7761094 - 12/15/07 07:55 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think im confused about what LC stands for. I thought he was talkin about the filter disc's for the jars.
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MYSTIQUE
Say Hi to the elves for me.
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: DontPlay]
#7761103 - 12/15/07 08:00 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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liquid culture that stuff that looks like piss and sperm.
-------------------- Dont know what the fuck I just said? READ THIS http://www.shroomery.org/5122/The-Shroomery-Mushroom-Glossary I ain't a hippy but I'm covered in dirt Sippin lots of mushroom tea in a tye-dye shirt Chasin' the Grateful Dead, no shoes on my feet Beggin' in the parking lot for something to eat, DO NOT USE FIRE IN YOUR GLOVE BOX!!!!!!!
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Nibin
Getting there
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: DontPlay]
#7761105 - 12/15/07 08:00 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Liquid Culture.
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: Nibin]
#7761142 - 12/15/07 08:24 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Fungi consumes oxygen. If you fail to provide fresh air, the mycelium will not grow. If you provide dirty air, your culture will be contaminated. That's the reason for filters on all cultures, liquid or solid. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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FooMan
Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: DontPlay]
#7761144 - 12/15/07 08:25 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
DontPlay said: I guess im wondering if the only reason for the need of gas exchange is to battle contams like cobweb mold ? If you were using a airpump to pump air into a flask of water inside your grow chamber would that take care of it?
The mycelium needs air to grow. If the CO2 is allowed to build up in the LC jar, you will eventually suffocate it and stall growth. I'm not sure what you mean by an airpump in your grow chamber. The question was about a liquid culture, which doesn't need to be in a grow chamber.
-------------------- Quick WBS Prep
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Vyrk
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: FooMan]
#7764010 - 12/15/07 11:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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But, think this you guys, Why the C02 should go away from the LC?, just because you make a hole?... The C02 is heavier than Air...
The only thing that will pull out C02 should be the osmotic pressure. But then again, you have the filter resistance, the gravity and also the fact that the jars are in a environment which already has a concentration of C02 (incubation chamber)...
Also, the mycelium is not a air breathing machine, I know it consumes O2 but it also grow in low O2 environments.
And now, taking away the fact that the CO2 should go away from the jar just only because he is a good person with happy feeling, what you recommend me to do?
I'm thinking in maybe introduce the Oxygen by another way, like minerals (KNO3) similar with explosives.
And this take me to another little question, Why should distilled H20 give O2 to the Mycelium?
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Vyrk
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: Vyrk]
#7764086 - 12/15/07 11:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have been reading something about the fungi anatomy, and you know there are two kinds of hyphae inside of the mycelium, the vegetative hyphae and the mature hyphae...
The mature hyphae has the skill of producing sexual organs and the vegetative hyphae has the skill of taking out nutrients from other organisms or substrates. Here is were come the important thing, the vegetative hyphae doesn't need 02 to make energy, it has the evolution learned skill (sorry fundamentalists) of taking out the energy of all kind of sugars ans biological structures.
Not like us or like plants which need to oxidate some sugar to take this energy...
Otherwise, the mature hyphae need O2 for other things, not for energy. I think to know where is the surface, same as light.
And so... trying to end this...
The micro-production of C02 should bring the concentration of C02 in the LC-MEDIA at the maximum, and this should stop any kind of 02-dependent activity in the LC-MEDIA...
So?, someone can justify me the use of filters in the LC cultures?
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Nibin
Getting there
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: Vyrk]
#7764266 - 12/16/07 12:28 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Basic biochemistry. Mycelium
1 molecule of glucose decomposed anaerobically (without O2) = 2 ATP
1 molecule of glucose decomposed aerobically (with O2) = 36/38 ATP
That is 18/19 times more energy per molecule of glucose in the LC
Even though gas exchange is low through filters in LC's is low, there will still be some diffusion going on, plus, if the LC is done as recommended and stirred often, that stirring will create air currents which will also get rid of some of the stale air inside the jar.
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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Vyrk
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: Nibin]
#7764416 - 12/16/07 01:06 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Nibin, you are wrong, the CO2 wont go away from the water just shaking it... It`s like the sugar or tea, its posses his own water solubility (145kg/m^3). This remind me something...
And those oxidation of glucose, is for the Cycle of Kreps, as I said, for us, not for the fungus.
KC and the Fungusband.
Ah, everybody get on the bath, let's grow Yes, fight the contams give your myc a chance Shake shake! shake your LC! Shake shake! shake your LC!
Oh, you can, you can do it, very well Your honey can stand the myc, I can tell
Oh, shake, shake, shake - shake, shake, shake Shake your LC, shake your LC Oh, shake, shake, shake - shake, shake, shake Shake your LC, shake your LC, wow wow, yeah!
Edited by Vyrk (12/16/07 01:18 AM)
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FooMan
Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: Vyrk]
#7765144 - 12/16/07 11:43 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vyrk said: What should happen if I use not any kind of filter?... Should this be a problem?, and why?, Acidification of the media??...
Pleace, somebody say what he thinks or, if someone has tried without air filter, please post!.
Back to your original question. I've tried it without a filter and it worked fine, but the colonization was slower. Why post the question when you seem to have a well thought out and researched answer already?
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Nibin
Getting there
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: FooMan]
#7765196 - 12/16/07 11:52 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Above discussion between Vryrk and I about necessity of air exchange in and LC etc has moved to MSN.
If we reach some kind of conclusion I imagine we'll post something.
We didn't want to monopolize the thread with a load of no your wrong because this and no you are wrong because of that, as he is mostly interested in hearing from people who grow their LC's without using filters.
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Vyrk
Stranger
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: Nibin]
#7767069 - 12/16/07 07:50 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah, Nibin is right, we are thinking together on this... And we can add to this talk that: The mycelium grows slowly when he has no Oxygen, so, the only good motive to use filters is to have a faster mycelium now, if you can't get any reliable filter its better not to use it.
And FooMan, that is the reason why this is called "forum"... I wanna talk, and understand things.
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veda_sticks
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: Vyrk]
#7767206 - 12/16/07 08:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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lost
-------------------- PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666 Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek
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FooMan
Registered: 02/02/05
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: Vyrk]
#7768512 - 12/17/07 08:17 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vyrk said: And FooMan, that is the reason why this is called "forum"... I wanna talk, and understand things.
NO SHIT! My problem isn't the content of your post, just the presentation.
Quote:
Vyrk said: What should happen if I use not any kind of filter?... Should this be a problem?, and why?, Acidification of the media??...
Why not just come out and say that you don't think you need a filter for LC's in the title of your post and explain your reasoning behind it? Instead, you present the question like you're ignorant about the subject and wait for others to answer you. Then you come back with a prepared answer of your own to contradict the answers you knew you were going to get in the first place.
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Vyrk
Stranger
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: FooMan]
#7768558 - 12/17/07 08:40 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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No Fooman, you are wrong, I don't have in first place a prepared answer... and what I was specting to get is a "Yes, I do it without filter and I have no troubles".
Please Fooman, don't take this personal.
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Roadkill
Retired Shroomery Mod
Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 22,674
Loc: Montana
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: Vyrk]
#7768605 - 12/17/07 09:08 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have grown out LC's with and without a filter...
the filtered jars have always grown mycelium much better.
I have used many different filters over the years...
and this one actually worked out the best...
and you can make it using a metal lid...also.
the mycelium was as thick as snot!~
tc
-------------------- Laterz, Road Who the hell you callin crazy? You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch! Brainiac said: PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.
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Green420Thang
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: Nibin]
#7768651 - 12/17/07 09:27 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nibin said:as he is mostly interested in hearing from people who grow their LC's without using filters.
ok time for my input in that case. I decided to try to make an LC with a lid set up of two RTV ports. One for injections, one for a syringe filter (plug out of syringe, polyfil in syringe). The plan was to bubble the LC every now and then to keep some gas exchange going in the jar while no contams could get into the jar because of the sealed lids. Needless to say, at first the growth would show at a normal rate, then come to a standstill. From that point if I would bubble, growth would continue for a very short amount of time before stalling again. Life, work and the rest of the world made it a little tricky to keep up with bubbling or even pulling fresh air into the jar and even though there was a culture in the jar, it would not grow larger especially compared to LCs of the past with no sealed lids.
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MYSTIQUE
Say Hi to the elves for me.
Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 1,764
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Ya I did 5 vacs with lc and after like 2 days no more growth.
-------------------- Dont know what the fuck I just said? READ THIS http://www.shroomery.org/5122/The-Shroomery-Mushroom-Glossary I ain't a hippy but I'm covered in dirt Sippin lots of mushroom tea in a tye-dye shirt Chasin' the Grateful Dead, no shoes on my feet Beggin' in the parking lot for something to eat, DO NOT USE FIRE IN YOUR GLOVE BOX!!!!!!!
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FooMan
Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: Vyrk]
#7769970 - 12/17/07 02:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm not taking anything personal. I think this is a great topic and I love some good debate. If it was personal, I'd start telling "your mama" jokes If it wasn't your intent to throw a "bait" question out there just for the sake of making the responders look stupid, my apologies.
Anyway, back on topic, my take on this is that if you don't care much about speed and are just looking to stretch your spore syringe or make a clone, then not using a filter would be fine. However, most people who use LC's are doing so in order to speed colonization times after inoculation. If they want speed in the overall process, then not using a filter would be counterproductive.
I'm glad you brought this subject up. A noob reading most LC-related threads here would think that a filter is a "must have" when it really isn't.
-------------------- Quick WBS Prep
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Vyrk
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: Roadkill]
#7776600 - 12/19/07 07:03 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well, to be ending this, I inoculate three jars with vacutainers seals, two with "hippie" filters and the other, without it.
Use 3ml from a not too dense spore syringe on each of them...
So, I will post in the next 4 days pictures of theses cultures.
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Green420Thang
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Re: Question LC filters. [Re: Vyrk]
#7776870 - 12/19/07 09:21 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Awesome. It will be good to examine these set ups side by side. Make sure to take more pics after the 4 days tho.
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