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OfflineNephlyte
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Whats truly wrong with the "war on terror"
    #7757693 - 12/14/07 09:53 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The real problem is showcased in a recent trial of "home grown terrorists." A year and a half ago, these guys were arrested for terrorism related charges. A jury (thank god for those) acquitted them in 9 days. I wish this story was getting more publicity. Here's my favorite passage.

"The entire situation was concocted by the government. The warehouse was paid for by the FBI, and the defendants moved their operations there at the suggestion of an undercover informant who was also paid by the FBI. The swearing-in ceremony was led by the informant — who at another point also suggested a plan to bomb FBI offices in Miami. "The case was written, produced and directed by the FBI," defense attorney Albert Levin said in his closing arguments."

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1694430,00.html

If you were watching the movie version of the terrorism trial that ended Thursday in Miami, FL, you might walk out around the time the seven suspects take an oath to al-Qaeda in a warehouse. The scene would feel so contrived, such a low-budget mockumentary of itself, that you might not be able to stomach another second.

The fact that this videotaped scene was in reality the centerpiece of the government's case against seven defendants accused of conspiring to wage war against America is a testament to the strange challenges of trying to preemptively prosecute the war on terrorism.

On Thursday, after nine days of deliberation, a jury acquitted one of the defendants, Lyglenson Lemorin, and gave up on the remaining six. The judge declared mistrials in those cases, and a new trial is scheduled for next year. It was a major loss for the government. In 2006, after the arrests, then-U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales heralded the arrests and warned that, if "left unchecked, these homegrown terrorists may prove to be as dangerous as groups like al-Qaeda."

The defendants in the Liberty City case (named after the poor Miami neighborhood where they lived), were members of the Moorish Science Temple, a sect that blends Islam, Christianity and Judaism and does not recognize the legitimacy of the U.S. government. (Moorish Science Temple leaders have since disavowed any links to the men.) On March 16, 2006, the men were recorded by the FBI vowing to be Islamic soldiers and to act at the direction of al-Qaeda, according to a motion filed by the government, which played the tape twice during the trial.

The evidence also included 12,000 recorded conversations — including one in which the leader of the ragtag group, Narseal Batiste, spoke of waging a "ground war" — surveillance photos some defendants took of federal buildings in Miami, wish lists of weapons and a request for $50,000 given to an FBI informant purporting to represent al-Qaeda.

We don't know yet know why the jury decided not to convict anyone in this case. "It was a very difficult case with a lot of evidence," jury foreman Jeffrey Agron, a school principal, told the Miami Herald. "People see evidence in different ways. There were different takes that people had." It's possible that jurors were struggling with the very thing that makes the Liberty City case so typical of the Justice Department's war on terrorism: it feels phony.

The entire situation was concocted by the government. The warehouse was paid for by the FBI, and the defendants moved their operations there at the suggestion of an undercover informant who was also paid by the FBI. The swearing-in ceremony was led by the informant — who at another point also suggested a plan to bomb FBI offices in Miami. "The case was written, produced and directed by the FBI," defense attorney Albert Levin said in his closing arguments.

Since 9/11, the FBI has begun using legions of Muslim or Arabic informants in hopes of rooting out radicals before they strike. The main informant in this case was a Middle Eastern man named Elie Assad. He had worked for the FBI for years before he approached Batiste, posing as an al-Qaeda operative named "Brother Mohammad." He earned about $80,000 for his services.

Defendant Batiste, a father of four who ran a struggling construction business, claimed he was conning the informant, just as the informant was conning him. He says he was desperate for money, so he went along with the informant in hopes of tricking him into giving him $50,000.

It would be better, of course, if undercover informants were trained FBI agents, instead of sometimes unsavory characters with perverse incentives. "With informants motivated by money, it's simple," says Dennis Fitzgerald, an expert on informants and a former police officer in Liberty City. "No case means no money — or at least less money."

But at this point, the FBI and police departments have nowhere near enough people who could convincingly work undercover in terrorism cases. "The number of undercover agents is minuscule; the number of confidential sources is much larger," says Art Cummings, deputy assistant director of counter terrorism at the FBI.

But the heavy reliance on informants has led to cases that sometimes appear to exist in the land of make believe. At one point during the Liberty City investigation, Batiste suggested to the informant that they could blow up the Sears Tower so that it would fall into Lake Michigan and create a tsunami. "Where did you get this idea?" Batiste's attorney later asked him on the stand. His answer was believable: "Just from watching the movies."

"Are we interested in finding terrorists or creating them?" says Joshua Dratel, who has defended a number of suspects in other terrorism cases. "Even in cases where people are found guilty, I'm not sure that [this strategy] is necessarily finding people who are a genuine danger. What it's really doing is finding people who — with enough inducement and encouragement — may do something. But whether they would ever do anything on their own, we'll never know."

Still, the FBI is only doing what we have asked it to do. If we want to arrest people before they act simply because they have the potential to do something bad, then this is what we get. The FBI is shutting down groups of extremists before they can do any permanent damage.

So despite the B-movie cast of characters, the stakes in this case were actually pretty high. The fact that it ended in a mistrial — coming shortly after a jury acquitted or hung on all counts in the Holy Land Foundation case in Texas, which had been the government's showcase terrorism-financing prosecution — is striking. If the government can't win this kind of case, it may show that juries cannot get behind preemptive prosecutions — that, perhaps, they don't agree with prosecutor Jacqueline Arango, who said in her closing arguments, "The government need not wait until buildings come down or people get shot to prove people are terrorists."


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"To do right is to know what you want. Now when you are dissatisfied with yourself it's because you are after something you don't really want. What objects are you proposing to yourself? Are they the objects you really value? If they are not, you are cheating yourself. I don't meant that if you chose to pursue the objects you most value, you will attain them; of course not. Your experience will tell you that. But success in getting after much labor what you really don't care for is the bitterest and most ridiculous failure." -George Santayana


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Whats truly wrong with the "war on terror" [Re: Nephlyte]
    #7757888 - 12/14/07 10:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The more and more I learn about terrorism, the more it seems to me that terrorism is just an invention of criminal elements of the US government.

Troops in Iraq use this same baiting to catch 'insurgents'. They'll set empty mortar shells and junk in a field, and watch em. Anyone who gives a glance, they'll load up with .50 machine gun bullets.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Whats truly wrong with the "war on terror" [Re: Minstrel]
    #7758488 - 12/14/07 01:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Let me try to understand this:

The government, based on information and belief arrested some people. They put them on trial. The defendants had attorneys. The standard for guilt in the criminal trial they were in is "beyond a reasonable doubt". The jury heard the case and deliberated for 9 days and came up with 1 acquittal and a hung jury for each of 6 other defendants.



And you somehow think this is an example of police state gone wild?


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OfflineNephlyte
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Re: Whats truly wrong with the "war on terror" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7763248 - 12/15/07 08:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

And you somehow think this is an example of police state gone wild?




Its not an example of a police state gone wild. Its an example of the real problems with the make believe war on terror. Police have to go through extraordinary means to catch guys who really didn't do anything.

Money wasted, time wasted, and man power wasted to frame a bunch of innocent people.

The saving grace of this story is that there is a working check (most of the time) on these wastes of police power. The problem is that these guys' lives are still severely disrupted, no 'terrorists' were caught, and nobody cares.

And you have to wonder. These guys were lucky enough to get off. Are there other similar situations out there where the poor suckers, not terrorists, went to jail.


--------------------
"To do right is to know what you want. Now when you are dissatisfied with yourself it's because you are after something you don't really want. What objects are you proposing to yourself? Are they the objects you really value? If they are not, you are cheating yourself. I don't meant that if you chose to pursue the objects you most value, you will attain them; of course not. Your experience will tell you that. But success in getting after much labor what you really don't care for is the bitterest and most ridiculous failure." -George Santayana


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Whats truly wrong with the "war on terror" [Re: Nephlyte]
    #7764853 - 12/16/07 10:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Six of the seven didn't get off at all, the jury could not reach a unanimous decision after nine days. They will be retried.

Given the outcome, nine days of deliberation with a hung jury, it is ludicrous to describe this as a frivolous prosecution. Further, these guys pretty clearly had some predisposition to bad behavior. Use of undercover agents to bring this out, as in the Albany/pizza case, are allowed and have been for a long time.

Say you meet someone in a bar, become friendly, and he asks you to hook him up with someone who might have some contraband. You give him a number and an introduction and eventually a sale is made. YOU will be arrested for trafficking as well. This is not entrapment


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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: Whats truly wrong with the "war on terror" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7765593 - 12/16/07 01:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Haha! Wrong thread


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Edited by Gastronomicus (12/16/07 01:35 PM)


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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Whats truly wrong with the "war on terror" [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #7767097 - 12/16/07 07:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

War on terrorism = The perfect crime against humanity.


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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Whats truly wrong with the "war on terror" [Re: Ginseng1]
    #7769578 - 12/17/07 01:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/12/21 05:06 PM)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Whats truly wrong with the "war on terror" [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7769593 - 12/17/07 01:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, its silly to try and kill terrorists w/out anything being done to redress the very real grievances of the terrorists.

Of course, terrorists are probably not choosing the best way to get their message out. That being mass and indiscriminate killing of innocent people.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Whats truly wrong with the "war on terror" [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7769625 - 12/17/07 01:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/12/21 05:06 PM)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Whats truly wrong with the "war on terror" [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7769701 - 12/17/07 01:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Ugh.

And this is where we disagree.

Do you really think the US Air Force is indiscriminately killing people?

You don't believe they try as hard as they can to minimize casualties?

The air force is trying to fight its enemies and NOT HARM ANYONE ELSE.

The "terrorists" are trying as hard as they can to kill someone else because they can't hurt the military.

The two are diametrically opposed.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Whats truly wrong with the "war on terror" [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7770626 - 12/17/07 05:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> Do you really think the US Air Force is indiscriminately killing people?

Yes.

> You don't believe they try as hard as they can to minimize casualties?

I don't think they try very hard at all. No matter how hard you try, when you drop explosives from the sky over a city, there will be problems.

> The air force is trying to fight its enemies and NOT HARM ANYONE ELSE.

Maybe they are just really bad at their job.

More likely they have been given a bum mission.

> The "terrorists" are trying as hard as they can to kill someone else because they can't hurt the military.

I haven't met anyone like that.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Whats truly wrong with the "war on terror" [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #7770633 - 12/17/07 05:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
> Do you really think the US Air Force is indiscriminately killing people?

Yes.





Way to be objective, bub.

If it wanted too, the US Air Force could raze Baghdad to the ground.

You think they want to kill as many civilians as possible, yet they drop single bombs on farmhouses out in the country? An Air Force that was able to kill hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Germans and Japanese 60 years ago.

And you think this is the best they can do?

That doesn't pass the logic test.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Whats truly wrong with the "war on terror" [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7770760 - 12/17/07 06:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> If it wanted too, the US Air Force could raze Baghdad to the ground.

I agree with you that they could do even more damage if they tried harder.

> You think they want to kill as many civilians as possible, yet they drop single bombs on farmhouses out in the country?

I didn't say they wanted to kill as many civilians as possible. I said they were indiscriminately killing people. Its the difference between a serial killer and a drunk driver, they are acting more like the latter.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Whats truly wrong with the "war on terror" [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #7770780 - 12/17/07 06:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

If they are trying not to kill civilians, then they are discriminating who they kill.

Therefore, they are not killing indiscriminately.

Obviously, less civilians would die if no bombing had ever taken place. This is a given. But you can't honestly believe that they aren't trying NOT to kill civilians.

You know what I mean?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Whats truly wrong with the "war on terror" [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7771912 - 12/17/07 10:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/12/21 05:10 PM)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Whats truly wrong with the "war on terror" [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7771996 - 12/17/07 10:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

And like I said, obviously people will be killed in war.

Obviously, less people would be killed if there was no war.

Less people would eat bacon if pigs could fly.

By your reasoning, if we are going to go to war we might as well nuke everyone, since there is no difference between indiscriminate killing and waging a relatively restrained campaign.

Right?

Hey, I would rather the US did not have to fight anyone either. I do not believe the War in Iraq serves any purpose whatsoever. I would want the troops out tomorrow if I didn't think it would lead to a total bloodbath.

But even I, a foaming-at-the-mouth Democrat can see the difference between dropping an atomic bomb on a country and doing what the Air Force is doing in Iraq.

Killing people is bad.

Killing no people would be ideal.

In a war, where deaths are unavoidable, doesn't it stand to reason that the less innocent people you kill the better?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Whats truly wrong with the "war on terror" [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7772066 - 12/17/07 10:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/12/21 05:12 PM)


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Whats truly wrong with the "war on terror" [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7772081 - 12/17/07 10:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/12/21 05:12 PM)


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Whats truly wrong with the "war on terror" [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7774637 - 12/18/07 05:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> By your reasoning, if we are going to go to war we might as well nuke everyone, since there is no difference between indiscriminate killing and waging a relatively restrained campaign.

Its your idea to nuke everyone, he was arguing that the war is a bad idea.

> Hey, I would rather the US did not have to fight anyone either.

The US doesn't have to fight anyone, they do it for fun and profit. (for the hell of it and to make money for the military contractors.)

> I do not believe the War in Iraq serves any purpose whatsoever.

The last several wars have served no purpose.

> I would want the troops out tomorrow if I didn't think it would lead to a total bloodbath.

Dropping more explosives from the sky is a stupid way to avoid a total bloodbath.

> Killing people is bad.
> Killing no people would be ideal.

Dropping no bombs would also be ideal.

> In a war, where deaths are unavoidable, doesn't it stand to reason that the less innocent people you kill the better?

All people killed in wars are innocent.

Insurgents are defending their country from invaders, which they have every right to do.


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