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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Killing vs. Letting Die
    #7756726 - 12/13/07 11:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Are they morally equivalent? State your reasons for believing why or why not they are on a moral par.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7757466 - 12/14/07 08:19 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I don't believe in morality. :shrug:
And I can't comment more upon your examples because they are too generic.
Every little detail can turn a situation and what it means, upside down.
Instead of moral and immoral I prefer to use more/less necessary.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7757468 - 12/14/07 08:24 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I agree. Morals are just human made up nonsense. If our society said that it was moral to beat up old folks or strangle puppies we'd be out there doing it most likely.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7757472 - 12/14/07 08:27 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

If you fall through thin ice and I am on the shore, I am not going in after you. If there is a rope nearby, I will toss it to you (unless you dissed me on shroom ratings).


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7757475 - 12/14/07 08:28 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It is moral to torture gooks and towelheads.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7757482 - 12/14/07 08:33 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
It is moral to torture gooks and towelheads.



Only if we fly a "Mission Accomplished" banner.


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InvisibleTomandjerry58
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Silversoul]
    #7757491 - 12/14/07 08:39 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

its definatley the same thing....thats why if there is a god we are all going to hell for being capitalist.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Silversoul]
    #7757499 - 12/14/07 08:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

'Mission Accomplished' was not referring to anything other than the fact that Bush was proud of duping the American people into making shitloads of money for defense contractors, Halliburton and the oil companies and others of his cronies.

It was the greatest sleight-of-hand in American history.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die *DELETED* [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7757563 - 12/14/07 09:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by LunarEclipse

Reason for deletion: paul is dead



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (12/14/07 09:18 AM)


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Offlineigwna
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #7757599 - 12/14/07 09:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I am all for voluntary euthanasia any which way.
If someone is convinced they'd be better off ending it and are stable (not senile, crazy, etc) then it is THEIR right to die.

However, out of the two, I personally would want to be let die. The lethal injection seems a lot easier, more painless, etc but I want my death to be as natural as possible.. do ya dig?


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I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.



Edited by igwna (12/14/07 09:21 AM)


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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7757643 - 12/14/07 09:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
I don't believe in morality. :shrug:
And I can't comment more upon your examples because they are too generic.





How do you not believe in morality? I don't see how you can't have any sense of right and wrong.

Also, I intentionally didn't give any examples, that way you guys could come with your own to defend your views.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7757662 - 12/14/07 09:42 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I agree. Morals are just human made up nonsense. If our society said that it was moral to beat up old folks or strangle puppies we'd be out there doing it most likely.




We do like our hero athletes to strangle puppies. It's the warriors way.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7757668 - 12/14/07 09:44 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
I don't believe in morality. :shrug:
And I can't comment more upon your examples because they are too generic.





How do you not believe in morality? I don't see how you can't have any sense of right and wrong.

Also, I intentionally didn't give any examples, that way you guys could come with your own to defend your views.




There is a big difference between personal ethics and morality.;)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Icelander]
    #7757671 - 12/14/07 09:45 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Care to elaborate?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7757682 - 12/14/07 09:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Ethics are standards I hold myself to and are completely subjective to me. Morality is a set of cultural standards (set by the culture or whomever) that I am expected to live up to whether I agree with them or not.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Icelander]
    #7757705 - 12/14/07 09:56 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Ethics are standards I hold myself to and are completely subjective to me. Morality is a set of cultural standards (set by the culture or whomever) that I am expected to live up to whether I agree with them or not.




That sounds like moral relativism.

Morality can be either personal or social, yet the fact still remains that the morals are you basic idea of what you consider is right versus what is wrong regardless of whether society agrees with you.

Ethics, morals, what have you--we can play word games all day, but the concept of morality does not connote being a necessarily societal concept, as you have demonstrated by saying that your concept of right and wrong are completely subjective.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7757706 - 12/14/07 09:56 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I simply don't believe in morality.

Quote:

I don't see how you can't have any sense of right and wrong.




This is so much like saying "I don't see how you don't believe in god. You must believe in a higher power"
Any notion that I have of right and wrong is purely subjective, therefore vitiated. Not to mention that these perceptions have dramatically changed several times now, that I experience more and more difficulties in confiding them.
I hope this answers your question.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7757713 - 12/14/07 09:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Ethics, morals, what have you--we can play word games all day

What a silly thing to say. Look them up and then understand.

Every thing you say is a "word" game. So play by the rules we can agree on or go to the Mystery forum.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7757716 - 12/14/07 10:00 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
I simply don't believe in morality.

Quote:

I don't see how you can't have any sense of right and wrong.




This is so much like saying "I don't see how you don't believe in god. You must believe in a higher power"
Any notion that I have of right and wrong is purely subjective, therefore vitiated. Not to mention that these perceptions have dramatically changed several times now, that I experience more and more difficulties in confiding them.
I hope this answers your question.




Whether something is moral or not is not a matter of having evidence, so the example you gave was not the most parallel. Yes, some moral views can be better defended than others, yet the concept of what is right versus wrong is a personal opinion (even if that opinion is in step with the societal consensus).

So, what you're saying is that you have no concept of right versus wrong?


Edited by vigilant_mind (12/14/07 10:07 AM)


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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Icelander]
    #7757728 - 12/14/07 10:05 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Ethics, morals, what have you--we can play word games all day

What a silly thing to say. Look them up and then understand.

Every thing you say is a "word" game. So play by the rules we can agree on or go to the Mystery forum.:lol:




What I'm getting at is that everyone has a basic concept of right versus wrong, at least on some level.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7757735 - 12/14/07 10:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

self evident IMO

To the origional post, they are equivalent in my subjective view.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Icelander]
    #7757750 - 12/14/07 10:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Here's my own opinion on the matter:

Killing versus letting die are equally wrong.

A famous philosopher by the name of James Rachels has the same view as I do, and he defended the view by presenting an example which illustrates the parallelism between killing and letting die.

The example is as follows:

James Rachels' Case of the Greedy Person and his Young Cousin

         In the first, Smith stands to gain a large inheritance if anything should happen to his six-year-old cousin.  One evening while the child is taking his bath, Smith sneaks into the bathroom and drowns the child, and then arranges things so that it will look like an accident.
         In the second, Jones also stands to gain if anything should happen to his six-year-old cousin.  Like Smith, Jones sneaks in planning to drown the child in his bath.  However, just as he enters the bathroom, Jones sees the child slip and hit his head, and fall face down in the water.  Jones is delighted; he stands by, ready to push the child's head back under if it is necessary, but it is not necessary.  With only a little thrashing about, the child drowns all by himself, 'accidentally' as Jones watches and does nothing.
         Now Smith killed the child, whereas Jones 'merely' let the child die.  That is the only difference between them.  Did either man behave better, from a moral point of view?  If the difference between killing and letting die were in itself a morally significant matter, one should say that Jones's behavior was less reprehensible than Smith's.  But does one really want to say that?  I think  not." 


Edited by vigilant_mind (12/14/07 10:28 AM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Icelander]
    #7757751 - 12/14/07 10:15 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)



vs.




I dunno.  Seems kind of different to me. :shrug:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Silversoul]
    #7757760 - 12/14/07 10:18 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Not in the big picture. Both those folk will die no matter what you do.

The rest is up to what you decide are the actions you would like to take in relation to any situation.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7757770 - 12/14/07 10:24 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Since everyone has dodged my initial question thus far...




I gave you an answer Mr. Over Generalization.


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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7757778 - 12/14/07 10:26 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

My bad.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7757780 - 12/14/07 10:27 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

If you are an American (or member of another coalition forces nation) and did not actively do your utmost to stop the war, then you are guilty of murder.

Is this your stand?


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7757789 - 12/14/07 10:30 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

That would not qualify as murder, that would be letting die.

But no, because proximity and relation must be taken into account.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7757791 - 12/14/07 10:30 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

In the outdoor adventure / thriller movie, "The Edge", The Hopkins character saves the Baldwin character's life and later Baldwin attempts to kill his benefactor and while doing so falls into a bear trap and is severely wounded. Hopkins saves his life once more.

If it had been me, I would have let the fucker bleed out and felt good about it.


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (12/14/07 10:47 AM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7757799 - 12/14/07 10:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
No, because proximity and relation must be taken into account.



So then it is your position that it is more moral to save someone you know personally than to save a total stranger? That sounds more like attachment than morality.


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Silversoul]
    #7757806 - 12/14/07 10:35 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It's just more satisfying.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Silversoul]
    #7757808 - 12/14/07 10:36 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Actually, you're right. Relation is more of an attachment issue rather than a moral one. I stand corrected.


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7757812 - 12/14/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

An interesting article on morality:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/

Icelander's POV is actually referred to as moral skepticism, not moral relativism. You are proposing a normative view of morality, and both Icelander and MushroomTrip propose a descriptive view of morality.

Killing someone or letting them die are both ethically questionable, meaning that that these actions fall within the realm of ethics. (Moral philosophy). My method of questioning would be specific to both the individuals AND the circumstances involved, and I would not necessarily arrive at the same conclusions as anyone else.

Personally, I would prefer to never kill anyone OR let anyone die, but would do so if the individuals and circumstances involved led me to believe it was necessary. For example, I would let someone die if I knew that, to them, their life was no longer worth living. I would kill someone if they were going to harm me or my children. I would also kill someone if they wanted to die & could not manage to end their own life.


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Veritas]
    #7757844 - 12/14/07 10:47 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I want to go swimming with you.:heart:

Is that off topic?:confused:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Icelander]
    #7757866 - 12/14/07 10:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I want to go swimming with you.:heart:

Is that off topic?:confused:




I would think that you would recognize V by now. That is NOT her image in the avatar - doh! :nono:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7757873 - 12/14/07 10:53 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

But isn't that you seeming to suck off that guy in yours?:confused:

Am I still off topic?:crazy:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Icelander]
    #7757885 - 12/14/07 10:56 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

She is 'sucking off' (it is called 'drinking') a Coke. :rolleyes:

Do you project sexuality onto everything?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7757905 - 12/14/07 11:02 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Only into you sweetness.:whacker:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7757990 - 12/14/07 11:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

So, what you're saying is that you have no concept of right versus wrong?




Of course I have. This is basic stuff, it's instinctual, we need it for survival.
This is exactly why those concepts have NOTHING to do with morality. It's just a way of sorting things out in a manner that suits my best interests. With other words, no matter how "good" one action of mine might seem, helping others and anything similar to that, it is good to keep in mind that the first and the most determinant reason for doing it was to serve MY best interest.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7758010 - 12/14/07 11:38 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You're so selfish MT.


(but in a good way:lol:)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7758024 - 12/14/07 11:40 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

So, what you're saying is that you have no concept of right versus wrong?




Of course I have. This is basic stuff, it's instinctual, we need it for survival.
This is exactly why those concepts have NOTHING to do with morality. It's just a way of sorting things out in a manner that suits my best interests. With other words, no matter how "good" one action of mine might seem, helping others and anything similar to that, it is good to keep in mind that the first and the most determinant reason for doing it was to serve MY best interest.




So you're saying morality is an ascribed or acquired concept, yet your own personal concept of right versus wrong (whatever it may be that you call it) is instinctual and thus innate?


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7758047 - 12/14/07 11:47 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I think it's some of both. Everything that exerts pressure on our lives influences our beliefs.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/14/07 11:49 AM)


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Icelander]
    #7758059 - 12/14/07 11:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Of course, yet I think we need to make a clear distinction here as to what morality is and what it isn't. I see now how ambiguous of a term morality can be.


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7758078 - 12/14/07 11:53 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

What do you think this distinction is? Being ambiguous it will mean differing things for different belief systems.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7758092 - 12/14/07 11:55 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

So you're saying morality is an ascribed or acquired concept




No, since what I said right from the start is that I don't believe in morality. At all.
However, when I said that my concepts of good and bad have nothing to do with morality I was taking to account it's definition. I did that for various reasons. Let's take a look at it's definition first, shall we?

Quote:

mo·ral·i·ty      /məˈrælɪti, mɔ-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[muh-ral-i-tee, maw-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ties for 4–6.
1. conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
2. moral quality or character.
3. virtue in sexual matters; chastity.
4. a doctrine or system of morals.




My perceptions have nothing to do with what others consider morality because my perceptions regarding good and bad are not in conformity with the standards of right or good conduct.
For example, if my standards were to be pondered by an individual who subscribes to the commonly accepted moral rules, they would consider mine to be far from moral or ethical.
By saying that my concepts about good and bad are selfishly motivated, I was trying to express how everybody's else's concepts are selfishly motivated as well.
Case in which, so long morality. :bye:


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And searched this human race
Here is true peace
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Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Icelander]
    #7758099 - 12/14/07 11:56 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I think morality is the concept of what one thinks is right versus what is wrong--guidelines for behavior, if you will. I see now how important is to define terms such as this at the outset.


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7758108 - 12/14/07 11:58 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

they would consider mine to be far from moral

No wonder FWG no longer has time for us.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7758111 - 12/14/07 11:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

So you're saying morality is an ascribed or acquired concept




No, since what I said right from the start is that I don't believe in morality. At all.





You don't have to believe in something in order to be able to define it and discuss it. I was attempting to see what you feel is the distinction between morality and your own concept of right and wrong.


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7758116 - 12/14/07 12:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
I think morality is the concept of what one thinks is right versus what is wrong--guidelines for behavior, if you will. I see now how important is to define terms such as this at the outset.




I agree with your definition. I'm having some trouble understanding where you are trying to go with this.:confused:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/14/07 12:00 PM)


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Icelander]
    #7758123 - 12/14/07 12:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
they would consider mine to be far from moral

No wonder FWG no longer has time for us.:lol:




Well it's all because of his sexy butt and his teasing ways :yesnod:


--------------------
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
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Here my heart knows calm
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Bathed in your sighs

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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7758126 - 12/14/07 12:03 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
You don't have to believe in something in order to be able to define it and discuss it. I was attempting to see what you feel is the distinction between morality and your own concept of right and wrong.




And I just talked about that :strokebeard:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Icelander]
    #7758130 - 12/14/07 12:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I was just answering your question about what I think morality is.

Now, to continue with the original topic.

I posted this earlier, but for everyone's convenience, I'll post it once more. Here is a defense of the view that killing and letting die are morally on par via example proposed by philosopher James Rachels.

James Rachels' Case of the Greedy Person and his Young Cousin

In the first [case], Smith stands to gain a large inheritance if anything should happen to his six-year-old cousin. One evening while the child is taking his bath, Smith sneaks into the bathroom and drowns the child, and then arranges things so that it will look like an accident.
In the second [case], Jones also stands to gain if anything should happen to his six-year-old cousin. Like Smith, Jones sneaks in planning to drown the child in his bath. However, just as he enters the bathroom, Jones sees the child slip and hit his head, and fall face down in the water. Jones is delighted; he stands by, ready to push the child's head back under if it is necessary, but it is not necessary. With only a little thrashing about, the child drowns all by himself, 'accidentally' as Jones watches and does nothing.
Now Smith killed the child, whereas Jones 'merely' let the child die. That is the only difference between them. Did either man behave better, from a moral point of view? If the difference between killing and letting die were in itself a morally significant matter, one should say that Jones's behavior was less reprehensible than Smith's. But does one really want to say that? I think not."


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7758143 - 12/14/07 12:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Morality is not an ambiguous term. What is ambiguous is whether a particular set of rules concerning what is right and wrong is universally applicable. That belief concerning morality is normative, while the belief that morality is subjectively determined is descriptive.

I agree with MushroomTrip that the tendency to believe in certain rules concerning what is right or wrong is instinctive. The specific rules, however, are highly subjective and imposed by humans.


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7758159 - 12/14/07 12:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Did either man behave better, from a moral point of view?

I think not to any great degree. I still don't see the point of all this?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Icelander]
    #7758188 - 12/14/07 12:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Ultimately, this relates to the original question of whether one thinks killing and letting die are on a moral par. I offered James Rachels's example to defend the stance that killing and letting die are equally wrong.


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7758204 - 12/14/07 12:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
I was just answering your question about what I think morality is.

Now, to continue with the original topic.

I posted this earlier, but for everyone's convenience, I'll post it once more. Here is a defense of the view that killing and letting die are morally on par via example proposed by philosopher James Rachels.

James Rachels' Case of the Greedy Person and his Young Cousin

In the first [case], Smith stands to gain a large inheritance if anything should happen to his six-year-old cousin. One evening while the child is taking his bath, Smith sneaks into the bathroom and drowns the child, and then arranges things so that it will look like an accident.
In the second [case], Jones also stands to gain if anything should happen to his six-year-old cousin. Like Smith, Jones sneaks in planning to drown the child in his bath. However, just as he enters the bathroom, Jones sees the child slip and hit his head, and fall face down in the water. Jones is delighted; he stands by, ready to push the child's head back under if it is necessary, but it is not necessary. With only a little thrashing about, the child drowns all by himself, 'accidentally' as Jones watches and does nothing.
Now Smith killed the child, whereas Jones 'merely' let the child die. That is the only difference between them. Did either man behave better, from a moral point of view? If the difference between killing and letting die were in itself a morally significant matter, one should say that Jones's behavior was less reprehensible than Smith's. But does one really want to say that? I think not."





i guess every person would have a different opinion on this just like anything else.

but in my opinion no.. there is no difference between the two just like there is no difference in profiting off people with medical problems.

or no difference in sending american troops to baghdad so you can profit off the oil. why else would we be out there.

but you see we live in a money...capitalist....every man for himself society and it will not change because we live like kings and i nor anyone else will change that because of the feeling of security that it supplies us with


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7758209 - 12/14/07 12:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

And why wrong?
See, this is what I have trouble in understanding.
Why is it wrong? According to whom?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Icelander]
    #7758210 - 12/14/07 12:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The difference between Jones and Smith as it occurs to me is that Smith is causally necessary for the child to drown. Both men have the same intentions and both achieve their desired outcome. So does it make a moral difference in this case if one is not taking action toward the child dying?


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7758213 - 12/14/07 12:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

That questions answer would depend on the circumstances as Veritas has pointed out.

All things being equal though, all things would be equal.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7758234 - 12/14/07 12:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
And why wrong?
See, this is what I have trouble in understanding.
Why is it wrong? According to whom?




The only question I'm asking in this thread is whether one views killing as being equivalent to letting die, and why. The question of why one views these actions (or lack thereof) in and of themselves as wrong opens up a pandora's box of philosophical questions, thus I think I'm going to stick to the original topic.


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7758251 - 12/14/07 12:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The original topic has too many variables to contemplate. Maybe you should make it specific to the story you quoted.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7758276 - 12/14/07 12:48 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
And why wrong?
See, this is what I have trouble in understanding.
Why is it wrong? According to whom?




uhh the ten commandments ...every goverments laws in the entire world probably around 5 billion people. and maybe the person ur killing. need i say more


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7758283 - 12/14/07 12:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The only question I'm asking in this thread is whether one views killing as being equivalent to letting die




They are almost identical.
However, it is not exactly the same thing.
Smith commits the murder and Jones doesn't... even though he doesn't move a finger to help the child who is obviously dying.
The difference is that you can never know for sure if Jones would have actually had the courage or determination to drown the child.
We are known to be complex beings and each time frame can be crucial for what decisions we make. Even though it is highly possible that Jones would have went along with his plan, it is not entirely certain so the difference (even small) is still there.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7758290 - 12/14/07 12:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

preschooler said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
And why wrong?
See, this is what I have trouble in understanding.
Why is it wrong? According to whom?




uhh the ten commandments ...every goverments laws in the entire world probably around 5 billion people. and maybe the person ur killing. need i say more




Yeah you need to say more since you lack of any logic.
Enunciating a few words is NOT debating.
Try again :tongue:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
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Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7758321 - 12/14/07 01:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i think i held a pretty good argument there. Your question was to whom it was considered wrong and i gave you an answer of five billion people who want to live and don't want to be murdered what else to want to hear.:rolleyes:


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7758341 - 12/14/07 01:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Thank you, I am well aware of the laws and moral conduits on our planet. That was some contribution. :smirk:
Now re-read the thread and see the CONTEXT in which I was asking that question.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
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Bathed in your sighs

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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7758390 - 12/14/07 01:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

please enlighten me.... because i may be lost


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7758406 - 12/14/07 01:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Look I don't feel like derailing this thread and it's not in my duty to explain kids stuff to you.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7758463 - 12/14/07 01:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

you know you keep making smart ass comments but ur actually not explaing anything.... anybody else care to comment about it. i mean am i just completely stupid here or what?


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7758538 - 12/14/07 01:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I was asking vigilant_mind for a clarification because he said that killing is bad.
Besides according to whom, which was a redundant question, I was asking WHY, why is it necessarily bad.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7758612 - 12/14/07 02:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

so why was my answer wrong?


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7758657 - 12/14/07 02:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Good, Evil.
correct, incorrect.
Whats the difference?


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7758708 - 12/14/07 02:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

preschooler said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
And why wrong?
See, this is what I have trouble in understanding.
Why is it wrong? According to whom?




uhh the ten commandments ...every goverments laws in the entire world probably around 5 billion people. and maybe the person ur killing. need i say more




None of these human-imposed rules make particular actions wrong. "Wrong" itself is an invented concept. Certain acts are undesirable, and thus we choose to call them WRONG. This choice does not, however, create a basic nature of wrongness in any action. Actions are neutral, however desirable or undesirable they may be from a subjective POV.


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Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7789183 - 12/22/07 02:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Killing vs. Letting Die -- Are they morally equivalent? State your reasons for believing why or why not they are on a moral par.




Not equivalent. How can you even ask the question?

Take your example of the kid drowning in the tub. In the killing case, the kid would not be dead if the adult had not been around to kill him. The adult's actions directly caused the kid to die. In other words, the adult intervened in the kid's life in such a way as to end it.

In the letting die case, the kid would be dead if the adult had not happened by at the right moment to save him. The adult's actions (standing by and watching) had nothing to do with the kid's death. The adult didn't intervene in the kid's life at all.



Phred


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