Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7757735 - 12/14/07 10:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

self evident IMO

To the origional post, they are equivalent in my subjective view.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinevigilant_mind
unfazed
Male User Gallery


Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 1,717
Loc: boco
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Icelander]
    #7757750 - 12/14/07 10:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Here's my own opinion on the matter:

Killing versus letting die are equally wrong.

A famous philosopher by the name of James Rachels has the same view as I do, and he defended the view by presenting an example which illustrates the parallelism between killing and letting die.

The example is as follows:

James Rachels' Case of the Greedy Person and his Young Cousin

         In the first, Smith stands to gain a large inheritance if anything should happen to his six-year-old cousin.  One evening while the child is taking his bath, Smith sneaks into the bathroom and drowns the child, and then arranges things so that it will look like an accident.
         In the second, Jones also stands to gain if anything should happen to his six-year-old cousin.  Like Smith, Jones sneaks in planning to drown the child in his bath.  However, just as he enters the bathroom, Jones sees the child slip and hit his head, and fall face down in the water.  Jones is delighted; he stands by, ready to push the child's head back under if it is necessary, but it is not necessary.  With only a little thrashing about, the child drowns all by himself, 'accidentally' as Jones watches and does nothing.
         Now Smith killed the child, whereas Jones 'merely' let the child die.  That is the only difference between them.  Did either man behave better, from a moral point of view?  If the difference between killing and letting die were in itself a morally significant matter, one should say that Jones's behavior was less reprehensible than Smith's.  But does one really want to say that?  I think  not." 


Edited by vigilant_mind (12/14/07 10:28 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Icelander]
    #7757751 - 12/14/07 10:15 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)



vs.




I dunno.  Seems kind of different to me. :shrug:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Silversoul]
    #7757760 - 12/14/07 10:18 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Not in the big picture. Both those folk will die no matter what you do.

The rest is up to what you decide are the actions you would like to take in relation to any situation.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7757770 - 12/14/07 10:24 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Since everyone has dodged my initial question thus far...




I gave you an answer Mr. Over Generalization.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinevigilant_mind
unfazed
Male User Gallery


Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 1,717
Loc: boco
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7757778 - 12/14/07 10:26 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

My bad.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7757780 - 12/14/07 10:27 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

If you are an American (or member of another coalition forces nation) and did not actively do your utmost to stop the war, then you are guilty of murder.

Is this your stand?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinevigilant_mind
unfazed
Male User Gallery


Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 1,717
Loc: boco
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7757789 - 12/14/07 10:30 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

That would not qualify as murder, that would be letting die.

But no, because proximity and relation must be taken into account.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7757791 - 12/14/07 10:30 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

In the outdoor adventure / thriller movie, "The Edge", The Hopkins character saves the Baldwin character's life and later Baldwin attempts to kill his benefactor and while doing so falls into a bear trap and is severely wounded. Hopkins saves his life once more.

If it had been me, I would have let the fucker bleed out and felt good about it.


--------------------


Edited by OrgoneConclusion (12/14/07 10:47 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7757799 - 12/14/07 10:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
No, because proximity and relation must be taken into account.



So then it is your position that it is more moral to save someone you know personally than to save a total stranger? That sounds more like attachment than morality.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Silversoul]
    #7757806 - 12/14/07 10:35 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It's just more satisfying.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinevigilant_mind
unfazed
Male User Gallery


Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 1,717
Loc: boco
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Silversoul]
    #7757808 - 12/14/07 10:36 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Actually, you're right. Relation is more of an attachment issue rather than a moral one. I stand corrected.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7757812 - 12/14/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

An interesting article on morality:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/

Icelander's POV is actually referred to as moral skepticism, not moral relativism. You are proposing a normative view of morality, and both Icelander and MushroomTrip propose a descriptive view of morality.

Killing someone or letting them die are both ethically questionable, meaning that that these actions fall within the realm of ethics. (Moral philosophy). My method of questioning would be specific to both the individuals AND the circumstances involved, and I would not necessarily arrive at the same conclusions as anyone else.

Personally, I would prefer to never kill anyone OR let anyone die, but would do so if the individuals and circumstances involved led me to believe it was necessary. For example, I would let someone die if I knew that, to them, their life was no longer worth living. I would kill someone if they were going to harm me or my children. I would also kill someone if they wanted to die & could not manage to end their own life.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Veritas]
    #7757844 - 12/14/07 10:47 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I want to go swimming with you.:heart:

Is that off topic?:confused:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Icelander]
    #7757866 - 12/14/07 10:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I want to go swimming with you.:heart:

Is that off topic?:confused:




I would think that you would recognize V by now. That is NOT her image in the avatar - doh! :nono:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7757873 - 12/14/07 10:53 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

But isn't that you seeming to suck off that guy in yours?:confused:

Am I still off topic?:crazy:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: Icelander]
    #7757885 - 12/14/07 10:56 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

She is 'sucking off' (it is called 'drinking') a Coke. :rolleyes:

Do you project sexuality onto everything?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7757905 - 12/14/07 11:02 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Only into you sweetness.:whacker:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7757990 - 12/14/07 11:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

So, what you're saying is that you have no concept of right versus wrong?




Of course I have. This is basic stuff, it's instinctual, we need it for survival.
This is exactly why those concepts have NOTHING to do with morality. It's just a way of sorting things out in a manner that suits my best interests. With other words, no matter how "good" one action of mine might seem, helping others and anything similar to that, it is good to keep in mind that the first and the most determinant reason for doing it was to serve MY best interest.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Killing vs. Letting Die [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7758010 - 12/14/07 11:38 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You're so selfish MT.


(but in a good way:lol:)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* what do you believe will happen when you die?
( 1 2 3 all )
louco 4,973 48 09/14/06 03:53 PM
by Gomp
* Murder, killing, death penalty, religion, ect. Vulture 1,383 10 06/04/03 01:22 AM
by thestringphish
* I can feel it dying
( 1 2 all )
whiterasta 3,386 20 03/12/08 10:41 AM
by Moonshoe
* Would you kill a child to save humanity?
( 1 2 3 all )
Anonymous 3,534 41 04/17/03 02:12 PM
by DrubuShrume
* Is killing wrong?
( 1 2 all )
cleaner 2,239 30 04/20/03 03:03 PM
by mr freedom
* death and dying Sir Tokes-A-Lot 2,372 14 05/18/17 11:13 AM
by birdeatingspider
* Ever died in a dream? Revelation 1,517 18 07/29/02 08:49 AM
by TeKHeAD009
* just let it go cHeMiCaLbLuE 872 8 04/27/02 06:58 PM
by Floydian

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
3,304 topic views. 0 members, 14 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.027 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 15 queries.