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dr_gonz

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#7755506 - 12/13/07 07:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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dr_gonz

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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: dr_gonz]
#7755617 - 12/13/07 08:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said: For all our conceits about being the center of the universe, we live on a routine planet of a humdrum star, stuck away in an obscure corner, on an unexceptional galaxy which is one of about 100 billion galaxies. That is the fundamental fact of the universe we inhabit, and it is very good for us to understand that. -- Dr. Carl Sagan
For as mundane as he makes the Earth/galaxy sound here, I find it quite spectacular myself.....  All of the rest of the universe as I know it is pretty spectacular too, but seems to have far less impact on me than our little hole, here on Earth.... I am not centered anywhere other than here, that I know of.... 
>^;;^<
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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wyldeman007
Student



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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7755848 - 12/13/07 08:59 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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If life is common in the universe you're right.. We are just a worthless planet in the universe. That makes me happy tho because I'll have a career...
If life only exists on Earth or our solar system then in a way you're wrong, we are precious and I can't even quantify how amazing mankind is...
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: wyldeman007]
#7755895 - 12/13/07 09:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
wyldeman007 said: If life is common in the universe you're right.. We are just a worthless planet in the universe. That makes me happy tho because I'll have a career... . If life only exists on Earth or our solar system then in a way you're wrong, we are precious and I can't even quantify how amazing mankind is...
Why would it make a bit of difference how we perceive how precious our lives are based on whether or not there is other life "out there"....?  I don't understand your polar opposite answer....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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wyldeman007
Student



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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7756005 - 12/13/07 09:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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and I don't understand your one-sided thinking..
If life is unique and limited to us we're a precious fluke; a cosmic accident, endowed with the power to spread life throughout the universe, in a sense WE are god. Well in a sense at least, try to have an open mind.
I myself believe the universe is riddled with life and would quite frankly, be more amazed if we are alone. I'm not about to get all xfiles on you talking about E.T. and shit, but it's reasonable for me to think about microbes or at least viral proteins.
I was actually being sarcastic on saying 'a worthless planet' no matter what, I'll never look down on our wonderful Earth.
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: wyldeman007]
#7756273 - 12/13/07 10:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
wyldeman007 said: and I don't understand your one-sided thinking.. . If life is unique and limited to us we're a precious fluke; a cosmic accident, endowed with the power to spread life throughout the universe, in a sense WE are god. Well in a sense at least, try to have an open mind.
I have an open mind, I just don't understand how the fact that us knowing that there is or is not other life out there makes us any less or any more than what we currently are (besides within the created delusions of the mind).... Is this one sided thinking....?
With our current technology, we aren't going to be populating anything except our Earth anytime soon, much less the universe.... Not saying that this won't change in the future, but this fact could never change just as well.... Anything within our current dreamy grasping of possibilities in manned space travel, hell, just the solar system alone is a pretty HUGE sterile place.... Past the solar system, well, it's pretty f'n cold.... 

>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7757225 - 12/14/07 04:16 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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> With our current technology, we aren't going to be populating anything except our Earth anytime soon,
We have already begun to populate earth orbit and have plans for both the moon and mars. If by soon you mean twenty years, then yes, I agree with you. If by soon you mean two hundred years, then no, I don't agree with you; I suspect we will be on both the moon and mars by then.... assuming we don't kill ourselves off first.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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dr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
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. [Re: Seuss]
#7757295 - 12/14/07 05:45 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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TheCow
Stranger

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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: dr_gonz]
#7757300 - 12/14/07 05:49 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes I definitely agree. Im the kind of guy who wants an exorbitant amount of money to spent on NASA. I want to colonize those planets as soon as possible. I dont care at all if it fucks up our economy, if poor people stop getting welfare or Medicare. I just purely want to go there so that one day in my lifetime, I can go to those planets. Its about as selfish as it gets, but seeing as how this is my only life, I view it as a worthwhile decision. Sucks for other people though.
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: TheCow]
#7757631 - 12/14/07 09:28 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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This thread kind of reminded me of a refreshing movie:
Dance, Monkeys, Dance (4min)
[url=&q=dance+monkeys+dance&total=5519&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1431038195362274085&q=dance+monkeys+dance&total=5519&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1[/url]
*edit: noted length of film so you monkeys would actually watch it!!
Edited by SoY (12/14/07 09:37 AM)
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boxcarguy07
Uno



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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: SoY]
#7758339 - 12/14/07 01:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't know what Christians you've been talking to...
Why would it matter to God whether Earth is in the center of the Universe or not? Why does it matter how big or how small it is? Presupposing God is infinite, then not only is he infinitely big, but infinitely small too. The fact that we are but a speck of dust in the universe doesn't matter one bit.
Also, whoever said that the God was ape-like? If you're getting that from the verse in the Bible that says man was created in God's image, I never took that to mean that we look like God. I took it to mean that we are capable of the creative process, love, etc.
And perhaps some Christians believe that the earth was made only for Christians (which is ridiculous) but I think most of them would say the "kingdom of heaven" is only for Christians, which I don't believe either.
It really is our own fault for bringing all these negative stereotypes upon ourselves.
--------------------
Music doesn't stop at the ears when it begins at the heart.
"Sit in reverie and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind." -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
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vigilant_mind
unfazed



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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: dr_gonz]
#7758398 - 12/14/07 01:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Wow. That site is the lolz.
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DarkMoon21
Child In Time



Registered: 01/31/07
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: vigilant_mind]
#7758655 - 12/14/07 02:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Maybe your brainwashed by all the anti-christian phenomenon, Everybody hates and ridicules christianity as a whole, but it's only a select few that fucked it up, there are goofs in every religion, 'tis the folly of mortal man. It's just because Christianity is arguably the best known and most studied with the best recorded history that they are the easiest target. Quit trying to seem like your doing something revolutionary by insulting the religion, it's origins where as honest and modest as buddhism or Sikhism, they just went about it in a different way and some people got mislead in the process, but can we not say that the thousands of 'freedom fighters' dying for their various gods every day have not been mislead and decieved by their respective dieties/religious figureheads?
Just because someone doesn't thoroughly hate christianity and actually knows what is says in the bible and takes it for what it is, a book of metaphors, doesn't mean their brainwashed. Get off your highhorse and stop being such an ignorant fool.
Edited by DarkMoon21 (12/14/07 02:38 PM)
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dr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
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DarkMoon21
Child In Time



Registered: 01/31/07
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: dr_gonz]
#7758696 - 12/14/07 02:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Maturity at it's best
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-=-Never Sigh For Better World It's Already Composed Played And Told-=- Science gives a consistent how with an incomplete why. Faith gives an inconsistent how with a complete why.
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wyldeman007
Student



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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7758779 - 12/14/07 03:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm done using synonyms to repeat myself.. so either respect my opinion or don't.. now, on to other issues.
Switching gears, talking about Christians, I was one..
Now I like designating myself as agnostic, Christians are too damn brain washed! you're right.
Christianity over all is the worst, not because of it's popularity or narrow views, but its lack of tolerance. Someone whose religion is based on the bible will say you're going to hell if you don't believe in god. Everyone who isn't a part of this small population is going to hell apparently.
I don't really believe in eternal damnation so that fact doesn't bug me, but when a Christian says to me "you're going to hell", I interpret it as "FUCK YOU non Christian" which is extremely rude if you ask me.
That's why people "pick on" the Christians, they're the only religious organization who will openly bash communities.
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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DarkMoon21
Child In Time



Registered: 01/31/07
Posts: 929
Loc: Vancouver, BC
Last seen: 6 months, 2 days
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: wyldeman007]
#7758827 - 12/14/07 03:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
wyldeman007 said: I'm done using synonyms to repeat myself.. so either respect my opinion or don't.. now, on to other issues.
Switching gears, talking about Christians, I was one..
Now I like designating myself as agnostic, Christians are too damn brain washed! you're right.
Christianity over all is the worst, not because of it's popularity or narrow views, but its lack of tolerance. Someone whose religion is based on the bible will say you're going to hell if you don't believe in god. Everyone who isn't a part of this small population is going to hell apparently.
I don't really believe in eternal damnation so that fact doesn't bug me, but when a Christian says to me "you're going to hell", I interpret it as "FUCK YOU non Christian" which is extremely rude if you ask me.
That's why people "pick on" the Christians, they're the only religious organization who will openly bash communities.
I'm sorry, but I've never met a christian that tells me I'm going to hell if I don't believe in god.
In fact, a few years back, I used to be very VERY anti-religious in an offensive, immature, and downright insulting way. I would walk up to a local church with some friends drunk out of my face and insult them, argue with them, and generally just be a dick. The worst I ever got where some really poor arguments and (on a few occasions) offers of cookies and juice. All of the christians I've met are very tolerant and kind, loving people. As I said earlier, it's the select few that are put in the spotlight that are ruining it for everyone else. The vast majority of christians are good natured people. After those incidents I thought..."hey, all this anti-christian propaganda is a load of shit, their beliefs may be wack, but who am I do judge? Their nice people, and I can't fault them for that."
There are certain sects of christianity that are very misled and very vocal about their ignorant and ridiculous beliefs, but they are the minority, whether you want to admit it or not.
Besides, actively hating such a large group of people is a tremendous waste of energy that we would all be much better off putting towards better things.
--------------------
-=-Never Sigh For Better World It's Already Composed Played And Told-=- Science gives a consistent how with an incomplete why. Faith gives an inconsistent how with a complete why.
Edited by DarkMoon21 (12/14/07 03:22 PM)
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



Registered: 09/09/07
Posts: 639
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: wyldeman007]
#7758831 - 12/14/07 03:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I can understand your frustration about the Christian religion..Basing your opinion about a religion based on how it works for others can do both things for you it can give you an idea of who you are going to become if you join or it can also give you and idea of what you should not become. Any religion works for you through your interpretation and your adherence to its principles. So if you believe in the reality of Christianity you would never tell anyone that they are going to hell.. After all there is not one scripture that I can think of that Jesus said to another man that they would be going to hell. On the contrary he told many that they would be going to heaven including the thief who died beside him. And also in my opinion the existence of our vast universe is further evidence to me of a divine orchestrator.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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dr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
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DarkMoon21
Child In Time



Registered: 01/31/07
Posts: 929
Loc: Vancouver, BC
Last seen: 6 months, 2 days
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: dr_gonz]
#7759043 - 12/14/07 04:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said:
...............
I love how your only arguement comes from either one sentence remarks that in no way actually prove or disprove your point, or they come directly from outside sources who follow the same stereotypes and assumptions as you do. You should really form some opinions based on your own experience, and maybe use that to back yourself up, otherwise you kind of, sort of look like you've got your head up your ass.
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-=-Never Sigh For Better World It's Already Composed Played And Told-=- Science gives a consistent how with an incomplete why. Faith gives an inconsistent how with a complete why.
Edited by DarkMoon21 (12/14/07 04:22 PM)
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dr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
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vigilant_mind
unfazed



Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 1,717
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: dr_gonz]
#7759069 - 12/14/07 04:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I can relate.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
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Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: Seuss]
#7759131 - 12/14/07 04:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > With our current technology, we aren't going to be populating anything except our Earth anytime soon,
We have already begun to populate earth orbit and have plans for both the moon and mars. If by soon you mean twenty years, then yes, I agree with you. If by soon you mean two hundred years, then no, I don't agree with you; I suspect we will be on both the moon and mars by then.... assuming we don't kill ourselves off first.
We are populating Earth's orbit with life....? Like generations of humans....? I do know about the planned moon mines planned for 2018-2020, but is that really "populating" when people would only have a reasonably short stay there....? Mars, that is a long shot.... And I still question whether we will be there for a short exploration visit verses "populating" the planet....
But this is all based on the current technology paradigm too.... Someone could figure out a new way of space travel tomorrow, and ways to overcome all of our humanly shortcomings with the deadliness of space.... But, all of this could also never come to fruition's as well.... 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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DarkMoon21
Child In Time



Registered: 01/31/07
Posts: 929
Loc: Vancouver, BC
Last seen: 6 months, 2 days
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: dr_gonz]
#7759150 - 12/14/07 04:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said: I grew up in a HARDCORE christian household for the first 18 years of my life. I know more about the bible and most religions than most people. I had it FORCED down my throat and I also experienced firsthand how bible thumpers act behind closed doors.
Bible thumpers aren't your everyday christians though. I'm sorry for whatever "horrible past" you had, but your family and whatever circle they associate themselves with just isn't justification to classify the millions of christians around the world as holier than thou heaven-obsessed maniacs. That's still only dealing with one part of the religion. If anything that takes away from your arguement as you've had long term bad experiences in one relatively isolated case.
Don't let your relative's ignorance taint your opinion.
Yes, my parents are christians too, but they aren't hardcore about it, neither are any (with exceptions of course) of the others that I've associated with in the past.
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-=-Never Sigh For Better World It's Already Composed Played And Told-=- Science gives a consistent how with an incomplete why. Faith gives an inconsistent how with a complete why.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
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Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: wyldeman007]
#7759151 - 12/14/07 04:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
wyldeman007 said: I'm done using synonyms to repeat myself.. so either respect my opinion or don't.. now, on to other issues.
Explained very well, I totally understand where you are coming from now....  Respect an idea/opinion that doesn't make sense to me for reasons stated, and you fail to clarify....?
I must be too close minded....!
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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boxcarguy07
Uno



Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 3,942
Loc: SC
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: DarkMoon21]
#7759164 - 12/14/07 04:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Right. Christianity preaches love and tolerance for all. Just because people misinterpret or do not follow these teachings doesn't make Christianity a bad thing.
In fact, a lot young people who are Christians are starting to disassociate themselves with the term "Christian" and are adopting the term "Christ follower" for just these reasons. People can't seem to separate the beliefs of the few that have messed things up for Christianity from what it really is.
--------------------
Music doesn't stop at the ears when it begins at the heart.
"Sit in reverie and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind." -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
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wyldeman007
Student



Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 309
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Last seen: 8 months, 28 days
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: DarkMoon21]
#7759213 - 12/14/07 05:03 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Maybe I should have been more specific, because my father is Lutheran and I don't think he believes I'm going to hell. What I should have referred to was Catholicism, the most abundant form of Christianity.
I'm truly sorry to offend, but I'm filled with utter hatred towards people who act superior or super human. This is reaching outside the topic of religion so I'll stick to the point...If I decide to have kids then I'm not going to force or even insinuate my beliefs unto them. As a science child myself, I would be infuriated to have religion influence their education. If some scumbag with religious agendas thrust intelligent design down my kids throat, I would seriously consider homeschooling... lol
(Oh yeah, for sum 1... clarify something for me; explain to me why the point eludes you by miles and miles. I really sympathize with your pessimistic views but your antics are very amature. If I could clarify more I would probably say you suck at what you do. You know who you are and this is our last mutual interaction.)
--------------------
"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
Edited by wyldeman007 (07/15/08 08:02 PM)
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
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Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: wyldeman007]
#7759295 - 12/14/07 05:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
wyldeman007 said: (Oh yeah, for sum 1... clarify something for me; explain to me why the point eludes you by miles and miles. I really sympathize with your pessimistic views but your antics are very armature. If I could clarify more I would probably say you suck at what you do. You know who you are and this is our last mutual interaction.)
You would say that "sum 1" sucks at what they do.....?  Actually, THIS will be our last mutual interaction.... 
You can go on wondering if you are "Precious" or if you are "Worthless" for when the jury gets back on whether there is life out there.... But since you have a bias towards there being life out there, thus making us "worthless" (in your words), good luck with that non-pessimism thing.... 
I believe life is precious, period.... (Including "sum 1 else".... ) It doesn't matter (to me) if there is other life out there or not, it has no bearing on life here, nor it's value....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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wyldeman007
Student



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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: boxcarguy07]
#7759334 - 12/14/07 05:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Everyone believes that they have the "correct" religion, and that they may invest emotion/resolve in their belief system justly. In a few words they do have the correct beliefs; every last one of them. The only real truth anyone holds in regards to religion is that we are all agnostics. We all have opposing/supplementing beliefs that will through action of paradox, never be quantified while we're alive. Logically you may debunk a religious aspect but you can never truly 100% disprove it. Say what you want but you're undeniably an agnostic whether you like it or not.
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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dr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
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wyldeman007
Student



Registered: 06/03/06
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Last seen: 8 months, 28 days
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: dr_gonz]
#7759374 - 12/14/07 05:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said: fuck your god
I never said that I was monotheist, you must remember if in fact I'm polytheist the phrase ought to be "fuck your gods" (plural)
lol just kidding man
The secret in life is not to take anyone too seriously... even if you're looking in the mirror.
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
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Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: dr_gonz]
#7759448 - 12/14/07 06:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said: fuck your god
Are you aware that this forum is not OTD, and that it is intended for actual discussion of spiritual and philosophical concepts?
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dr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
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dr_gonz

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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: dr_gonz]
#7759468 - 12/14/07 06:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said: SO, back on topic people. PROVE TO ME THAT GOD IS REAL!
Just look at your avatar.
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wyldeman007
Student



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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: wyldeman007]
#7759477 - 12/14/07 06:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
wyldeman007 said: Everyone believes that they have the "correct" religion, and that they may invest emotion/resolve in their belief system justly. In a few words they do have the correct beliefs; every last one of them. The only real truth anyone holds in regards to religion is that we are all agnostics. We all have opposing/supplementing beliefs that will through action of paradox, never be quantified while we're alive. Logically you may debunk a religious aspect but you can never truly 100% disprove it. Say what you want but you're undeniably an agnostic whether you like it or not.
No one can prove if God exists.
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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dr_gonz

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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: dr_gonz]
#7759519 - 12/14/07 06:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said: immaculate conception, FTW? prove that theory please.
Immaculate conception? Even if I believe in it, it's hard to prove who someone's father is without a DNA test. Find me some of Jesus's DNA and I'll see what I can do.
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dr_gonz

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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: dr_gonz]
#7759545 - 12/14/07 06:26 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Not that there's any record of Jesus himself claiming to be born of a virgin.
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wyldeman007
Student



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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: Silversoul]
#7759548 - 12/14/07 06:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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If you think that it's hard to prove who fathered a child without DNA, then tell me how hard do you think it is to get a DNA sample from the "divine creator".
Even so, all u need to do is retrieve a sample of Jesus' DNA, then a sample of Mary's then you compare the genetic markers which will coincidentally be robbed by archangel Micheal to preserve the Christian faith. So don't even try because god won't let you know. He won't he won't!
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: Silversoul]
#7759562 - 12/14/07 06:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Incidentally, "immaculate conception" doesn't refer to the virgin birth of Jesus, but rather to Mary being born without sin.
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dr_gonz

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fivepointer
newbie
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: dr_gonz]
#7759583 - 12/14/07 06:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Actually there is some evidence that our galaxy is at the center of the universe.
I found this on the web. I'm not an expert on astrophysics but it seems interesting:
Mainstream William Tifft in the 1970s discovered a 'quantization' or step length in the measured redshifts of galaxies - a delta z (red shift) of about 0.024% (72 km/s or 3.1 million light years) that has been confirmed time and time again including a 1997 study of 250 galaxies where they refer to these as 'galocentirc periodicities' because the effect only occurs if you use our galactic reference frame*. This effect is very disturbing for mainstream cosmologists because of course they do not expect us at the centre of the universe because (i) the Big Bang has no centre and (ii) why should we be there if there is one? The 1997 study was not able to put down the result to some statistical anomaly:
quote:'. . . the redshift distribution has been found to be strongly quantized in the galactic frame of reference.' WM Napier & BNG Guthrie J Astophys Astron 18, 455 (1997))
The only sensible interpretation of these results is that the Milky Way is at the centre of the universe (within 1.6 million ly actually as shown recently by Russel Humphreys*). The galaxies occur in spherical shells around us presumably generated by shock waves during the expansion (for us probably of Humphrey's white hole).
It is incredibly good support for Humphrey's model which simply because it has a centre (unlike the mainstream Big Bang) has vast gravitationally generated time dilation during the early expansion phase. The time dilation (that makes million of years go past while only days or years at the centre) is an inescapable feature of a bounded universe via Einstein's general relativity. If it has a centre then the long range gravitation can't cancel out to zero so we have time dilation.
Regardless of Humphrey's model or not there is incredibly clear evidence that our galaxy is at the centre of the universe and this data is not more well known only because this is the only sensible interpretation.
Based on the size of the known universe Humphreys clearly shows that we are within 1.6 million light years of the centre and that there is only a one in 10^13 chance of this occurring by accident. Maybe the universe was created for us.
* This is a summary of an article by Russell Humphries in the current issue of CEN TJ (V16, Issue 2,
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boxcarguy07
Uno



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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: fivepointer]
#7759958 - 12/14/07 08:07 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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"The universe it that which has no center yet is at the center of everything"
My ex-girlfriend said this while on shrooms
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Music doesn't stop at the ears when it begins at the heart.
"Sit in reverie and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind." -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
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Ozekat
Cosmic Observer



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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: boxcarguy07]
#7760293 - 12/14/07 09:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Arguing with people especially those under the influence of their "chosen" religions is just a waste of time. Bashing their religions is a waste of time.
What if god self manifested in front of us all in our mind's eye and we knew it was the real deal and he explained what we were. I still wouldn't be satisfied. You can never be totally satisfied being a human if you are constantly looking out, and never within.
God is the harmonious balances of your organs you are TOTALLY unaware of controlling, god is the swaying of the dew-coated weeds in the breeze.
Are we all honestly so scared to look within ourselves that we continually base more and more absurd religions on the stars we can as of yet make no sense of in some hope to alleviate the human uncertainty that is the most natural thing in the world?
STILL LOOKING OUT AND NOT WITHIN
Why are you people so fucking afraid anyway? You have been conditioned to be this way from before childhood, afraid of your own breath and feeling that which you are, god.
If you are under the impression that you are god and aware of it then you are full of human ego-impressions such as arrogance and conceit.
If you must have a pathetic label I suppose you could call me a Pantheist. Words are worthless when compared side by side to meaningful deep realizations of the eternity of energy and spirit.
I feel that I have not expressed myself as accurately as I would, so dismiss everything I just said. It matters not, nothing will get through to those who do not want to change their ways of life. But words are difficult when it comes to such topics as these, EXPERIENCE is vastly more life-altering and potentially improving.
Just be happy. And don't waste your time belittling others, if you are happy and spontaneously loving and empathetic of others, even the teeniest bit you can, then you are a self-realized existence of compassion and understanding. Nothing needs to be said.
Words frustrate me.
-------------------- Tension is who you think you should be. Relaxation is who you are. - Chinese Proverb
Beauty & Simplicity
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boxcarguy07
Uno



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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: Ozekat]
#7760373 - 12/14/07 09:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Are you saying that, for me, Christianity is not what I find inside of myself? That I can't possibly subscribe to this religion and be looking within at the same time?
If not, then I completely agree with everything you said, and I have a hunch that I know what you're trying to convey beyond the limits that language is imposing upon you.
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Music doesn't stop at the ears when it begins at the heart.
"Sit in reverie and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind." -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
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Sir_Jeans
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: boxcarguy07]
#7760893 - 12/15/07 03:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I am moved to express my opinion here because the more people who fight for truth and logic, the closer we come to entering a new age of evolution...
In my humble opinion I think that humanity is largely stuck in the 'religion age' just as our neanderthol ancestors were stuck in the stone age. I see belief in any personal God/s, divine creater etc (other than some frustratingly misleading metaphor for nature) as a bane to humanity - something that must be overcome if we are to evolve further. I personally am drawn to a kind of 'zen-like spirituality', but it doesnt lie outside the laws of physics (including ones we may be unaware of) it is one that suggests that when I die, my body and conciousness will disolve back into the infinite and endless swirl of elements. This I feel is much more poetic and elegant than the idea of going to some pearly-gated heaven run by some kind of entity. I have had certain (sober [otherwise they would likely be less reliable]) experiences which are extremely far out (one inparticular) which can only lead me to the conclusion that there are things going down that are very far beyond my day to day experiences. I think there was substance built upon by religion, but it has been perceived with much the same clarity as an ant (with its very poor eyesight) might apreciate a magnificent painting. Whatever the true nature of this world and our existence in it, I think we should try to reveal it by open-minded means only, not by saying God did it, which as far as theories go is remarkably improbable. I think religion and the beliefs they typically hold were suitable for primitive peoples, but in this day and age it just doesnt suffice. Im not saying there is no God, or reincarnation etc. I am saying that we should not believe in these or other things without reliable and sensibe evidence.
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: Sir_Jeans]
#7761281 - 12/15/07 09:48 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
I am moved to express my opinion here because the more people who fight for truth and logic, the closer we come to entering a new age of evolution...
In my humble opinion I think that humanity is largely stuck in the 'religion age' just as our neanderthol ancestors were stuck in the stone age. I see belief in any personal God/s, divine creater etc (other than some frustratingly misleading metaphor for nature) as a bane to humanity - something that must be overcome if we are to evolve further. I personally am drawn to a kind of 'zen-like spirituality', but it doesnt lie outside the laws of physics (including ones we may be unaware of) it is one that suggests that when I die, my body and conciousness will disolve back into the infinite and endless swirl of elements. This I feel is much more poetic and elegant than the idea of going to some pearly-gated heaven run by some kind of entity. I have had certain (sober [otherwise they would likely be less reliable]) experiences which are extremely far out (one inparticular) which can only lead me to the conclusion that there are things going down that are very far beyond my day to day experiences. I think there was substance built upon by religion, but it has been perceived with much the same clarity as an ant (with its very poor eyesight) might apreciate a magnificent painting. Whatever the true nature of this world and our existence in it, I think we should try to reveal it by open-minded means only, not by saying God did it, which as far as theories go is remarkably improbable. I think religion and the beliefs they typically hold were suitable for primitive peoples, but in this day and age it just doesnt suffice. Im not saying there is no God, or reincarnation etc. I am saying that we should not believe in these or other things without reliable and sensibe evidence.
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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wyldeman007
Student



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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: SoY]
#7761332 - 12/15/07 10:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's interesting to me that people say they choose their religion, it's our beliefs that define us. If anyone believes they have conscious control, they're lying to themselves.
Right on though, about how we're still evolving. This species has a lot of work to do but sometime later you'll be able to walk up to anybody of any nationality and laugh with them.
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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