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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: dr_gonz]
#7759545 - 12/14/07 06:26 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Not that there's any record of Jesus himself claiming to be born of a virgin.
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wyldeman007
Student



Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 309
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Last seen: 8 months, 28 days
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: Silversoul]
#7759548 - 12/14/07 06:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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If you think that it's hard to prove who fathered a child without DNA, then tell me how hard do you think it is to get a DNA sample from the "divine creator".
Even so, all u need to do is retrieve a sample of Jesus' DNA, then a sample of Mary's then you compare the genetic markers which will coincidentally be robbed by archangel Micheal to preserve the Christian faith. So don't even try because god won't let you know. He won't he won't!
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: Silversoul]
#7759562 - 12/14/07 06:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Incidentally, "immaculate conception" doesn't refer to the virgin birth of Jesus, but rather to Mary being born without sin.
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dr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: dr_gonz]
#7759583 - 12/14/07 06:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Actually there is some evidence that our galaxy is at the center of the universe.
I found this on the web. I'm not an expert on astrophysics but it seems interesting:
Mainstream William Tifft in the 1970s discovered a 'quantization' or step length in the measured redshifts of galaxies - a delta z (red shift) of about 0.024% (72 km/s or 3.1 million light years) that has been confirmed time and time again including a 1997 study of 250 galaxies where they refer to these as 'galocentirc periodicities' because the effect only occurs if you use our galactic reference frame*. This effect is very disturbing for mainstream cosmologists because of course they do not expect us at the centre of the universe because (i) the Big Bang has no centre and (ii) why should we be there if there is one? The 1997 study was not able to put down the result to some statistical anomaly:
quote:'. . . the redshift distribution has been found to be strongly quantized in the galactic frame of reference.' WM Napier & BNG Guthrie J Astophys Astron 18, 455 (1997))
The only sensible interpretation of these results is that the Milky Way is at the centre of the universe (within 1.6 million ly actually as shown recently by Russel Humphreys*). The galaxies occur in spherical shells around us presumably generated by shock waves during the expansion (for us probably of Humphrey's white hole).
It is incredibly good support for Humphrey's model which simply because it has a centre (unlike the mainstream Big Bang) has vast gravitationally generated time dilation during the early expansion phase. The time dilation (that makes million of years go past while only days or years at the centre) is an inescapable feature of a bounded universe via Einstein's general relativity. If it has a centre then the long range gravitation can't cancel out to zero so we have time dilation.
Regardless of Humphrey's model or not there is incredibly clear evidence that our galaxy is at the centre of the universe and this data is not more well known only because this is the only sensible interpretation.
Based on the size of the known universe Humphreys clearly shows that we are within 1.6 million light years of the centre and that there is only a one in 10^13 chance of this occurring by accident. Maybe the universe was created for us.
* This is a summary of an article by Russell Humphries in the current issue of CEN TJ (V16, Issue 2,
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boxcarguy07
Uno



Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 3,942
Loc: SC
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: fivepointer]
#7759958 - 12/14/07 08:07 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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"The universe it that which has no center yet is at the center of everything"
My ex-girlfriend said this while on shrooms
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Music doesn't stop at the ears when it begins at the heart.
"Sit in reverie and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind." -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
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Ozekat
Cosmic Observer



Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 186
Loc: Kentucky
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: boxcarguy07]
#7760293 - 12/14/07 09:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Arguing with people especially those under the influence of their "chosen" religions is just a waste of time. Bashing their religions is a waste of time.
What if god self manifested in front of us all in our mind's eye and we knew it was the real deal and he explained what we were. I still wouldn't be satisfied. You can never be totally satisfied being a human if you are constantly looking out, and never within.
God is the harmonious balances of your organs you are TOTALLY unaware of controlling, god is the swaying of the dew-coated weeds in the breeze.
Are we all honestly so scared to look within ourselves that we continually base more and more absurd religions on the stars we can as of yet make no sense of in some hope to alleviate the human uncertainty that is the most natural thing in the world?
STILL LOOKING OUT AND NOT WITHIN
Why are you people so fucking afraid anyway? You have been conditioned to be this way from before childhood, afraid of your own breath and feeling that which you are, god.
If you are under the impression that you are god and aware of it then you are full of human ego-impressions such as arrogance and conceit.
If you must have a pathetic label I suppose you could call me a Pantheist. Words are worthless when compared side by side to meaningful deep realizations of the eternity of energy and spirit.
I feel that I have not expressed myself as accurately as I would, so dismiss everything I just said. It matters not, nothing will get through to those who do not want to change their ways of life. But words are difficult when it comes to such topics as these, EXPERIENCE is vastly more life-altering and potentially improving.
Just be happy. And don't waste your time belittling others, if you are happy and spontaneously loving and empathetic of others, even the teeniest bit you can, then you are a self-realized existence of compassion and understanding. Nothing needs to be said.
Words frustrate me.
-------------------- Tension is who you think you should be. Relaxation is who you are. - Chinese Proverb
Beauty & Simplicity
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boxcarguy07
Uno



Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 3,942
Loc: SC
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: Ozekat]
#7760373 - 12/14/07 09:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Are you saying that, for me, Christianity is not what I find inside of myself? That I can't possibly subscribe to this religion and be looking within at the same time?
If not, then I completely agree with everything you said, and I have a hunch that I know what you're trying to convey beyond the limits that language is imposing upon you.
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Music doesn't stop at the ears when it begins at the heart.
"Sit in reverie and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind." -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
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Sir_Jeans
Sir

Registered: 06/27/06
Posts: 75
Loc: Adelaide, S.A. Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: boxcarguy07]
#7760893 - 12/15/07 03:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I am moved to express my opinion here because the more people who fight for truth and logic, the closer we come to entering a new age of evolution...
In my humble opinion I think that humanity is largely stuck in the 'religion age' just as our neanderthol ancestors were stuck in the stone age. I see belief in any personal God/s, divine creater etc (other than some frustratingly misleading metaphor for nature) as a bane to humanity - something that must be overcome if we are to evolve further. I personally am drawn to a kind of 'zen-like spirituality', but it doesnt lie outside the laws of physics (including ones we may be unaware of) it is one that suggests that when I die, my body and conciousness will disolve back into the infinite and endless swirl of elements. This I feel is much more poetic and elegant than the idea of going to some pearly-gated heaven run by some kind of entity. I have had certain (sober [otherwise they would likely be less reliable]) experiences which are extremely far out (one inparticular) which can only lead me to the conclusion that there are things going down that are very far beyond my day to day experiences. I think there was substance built upon by religion, but it has been perceived with much the same clarity as an ant (with its very poor eyesight) might apreciate a magnificent painting. Whatever the true nature of this world and our existence in it, I think we should try to reveal it by open-minded means only, not by saying God did it, which as far as theories go is remarkably improbable. I think religion and the beliefs they typically hold were suitable for primitive peoples, but in this day and age it just doesnt suffice. Im not saying there is no God, or reincarnation etc. I am saying that we should not believe in these or other things without reliable and sensibe evidence.
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: Sir_Jeans]
#7761281 - 12/15/07 09:48 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
I am moved to express my opinion here because the more people who fight for truth and logic, the closer we come to entering a new age of evolution...
In my humble opinion I think that humanity is largely stuck in the 'religion age' just as our neanderthol ancestors were stuck in the stone age. I see belief in any personal God/s, divine creater etc (other than some frustratingly misleading metaphor for nature) as a bane to humanity - something that must be overcome if we are to evolve further. I personally am drawn to a kind of 'zen-like spirituality', but it doesnt lie outside the laws of physics (including ones we may be unaware of) it is one that suggests that when I die, my body and conciousness will disolve back into the infinite and endless swirl of elements. This I feel is much more poetic and elegant than the idea of going to some pearly-gated heaven run by some kind of entity. I have had certain (sober [otherwise they would likely be less reliable]) experiences which are extremely far out (one inparticular) which can only lead me to the conclusion that there are things going down that are very far beyond my day to day experiences. I think there was substance built upon by religion, but it has been perceived with much the same clarity as an ant (with its very poor eyesight) might apreciate a magnificent painting. Whatever the true nature of this world and our existence in it, I think we should try to reveal it by open-minded means only, not by saying God did it, which as far as theories go is remarkably improbable. I think religion and the beliefs they typically hold were suitable for primitive peoples, but in this day and age it just doesnt suffice. Im not saying there is no God, or reincarnation etc. I am saying that we should not believe in these or other things without reliable and sensibe evidence.
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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wyldeman007
Student



Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 309
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Last seen: 8 months, 28 days
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Re: Christian universe + Christian Logic [Re: SoY]
#7761332 - 12/15/07 10:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's interesting to me that people say they choose their religion, it's our beliefs that define us. If anyone believes they have conscious control, they're lying to themselves.
Right on though, about how we're still evolving. This species has a lot of work to do but sometime later you'll be able to walk up to anybody of any nationality and laugh with them.
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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