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 vigilant_mind
unfazed
 
Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 1,717
Loc: boco
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
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 Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact.  [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#7752978 - 12/13/07 09:50 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
That's because "external world" and internal world are still separated by a wall of skin in your point of view.
True, however, it's still completely speculative to say that your interpretation of an LSD trip is the factual truth about our world unless your interpretation can be confirmed somehow.
I'm merely asking for you to 1) explain how your experiences have revealed the truth about our world and 2) how you know that your interpretation is right.
Edited by vigilant_mind (12/13/07 10:08 AM)
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#7754775 - 12/13/07 05:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
You're the one dealing with death anxiety and attributing it, Freud-like, to any and all spirituality. The only thing I prove is your failure to comprehend the position that I support. You're projecting your own issuesonto me with your comments, since there is nothing self-aggrandizing about the inevitability of our death, neither is the a priori assumption of Consciousness even remotely related to a mythology (no players, no story) it is a purely intuitive stance which emerges from the experience of simple awareness (as in Vipassana meditation).
Matter and form are emergent properties of a primal energetic matrix. This is true of particles and bodies forming at the dawn of creation, and it operates in present evolutionary processes which unfold in increasing complexity in The Great Chain of Being. In Victor Frankl's "Dimensional Ontology," identification of a human being as a mind and a body alone, fails to take a higher dimension into acount from which these seemingly separate incomplete dimensions are projected. I don't live in 'Flatland,' and neither do you.
In the words of Frankl:
"Dimensional ontology is far from explaining the mind-body problem. But it does explain why the mind-body problem cannot be be solved. Of necessity the unity of man - a unity in spite of the multiplicity of body and mind - cannot be found in the biological or psychological but must be sought in the noological dimension out of which man is projected in the first place."
The noological (from nous) is Consciousness.
Your quotations are just another mentally constipated perception - unable to see the forest for the trees.  . Hey does this sound familiar?
The forest you are unable to see is that while I can admit to the fact that you could be right and I could be mistaken you cannot make the same admission because your huge ego is invested in all the effort you have put into your belief system.
This closed mindedness keeps people stuck in paradigms for life.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: gbeatle]
#7754783 - 12/13/07 05:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
gbeatle said:
the only reason we were put on this earth in the first place was to love. people are to ignorant and brainwashed to understand, life is short and theres no time for fussing and fighting my friends
Talk about someone mistaking his belief for a fact.
There is no solid evidence for your beliefs. Nature being red in tooth and claw.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Middleman
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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 Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7754816 - 12/13/07 05:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Eckhart Tolle has this great rap where he talks about how when one animal eats another, it is doing it out of love for it's own survival or the love of it's kin and has no judgment or prejudice against it's prey...
Dan Winter has measured the EEG and EKG cascades of people showing peaks at golden ratios only when they are feeling "love", contentment, or a calm joy.
Since everything from Galaxies to Hurricanes to whirlpools to ALL lifeforms also exhibit this ratio he says the basic structure of the Universe is indeed made of "Love"...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Middleman]
#7754827 - 12/13/07 05:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Nice but sounds a bit anthropomorphic to me.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7754829 - 12/13/07 05:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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The lion truly doth love the zebra. 
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Middleman
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7754847 - 12/13/07 05:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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The greatest love is consumption, just ask Jesus. Or your Grandma; "Oh your so cute I could just "EAT YOU UP!"
What is kissing but a sort of mutual consumption... or consummation?
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Middleman]
#7754871 - 12/13/07 05:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The greatest love is consumption, just ask Jesus. Or your Grandma
...or Hannibal Lecter.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida 
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7755191 - 12/13/07 06:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Being hugely aware is not equivalent to having a huge ego. Ego is one's point of view. It is the psychic center of consciousness, not of the entire psyche which includes subconscious and unconscious domains on one end and superconsciousness on the other. Consciousness is like the visible light portion of the entire electromagnetic spectrum. There is a much more cosmic point of view that I defer to, unlike yourself, which dwarfs the perspective available to 'me.' You have made your own ego-centric point of view God, I have not.
I present a series of systems with the intention of organizing the thinking mind. You somehow see 'a' singular belief system that I have put effort into. What exactly do you attribute your own awareness to, btw, electrochemical processes in your cerebrum? Do you know? If not, do you admit of Mystery or do you admit of ignorance? Is it mathematical probability of random interactions over countless aeons of time that you 'believe' in which 'accidentally' resulting in various demonstrable degrees of consciousness in different life forms? What do you observe from the givens? All I ever read from you is your attempt to criticize the mental formulations of others, but what of yourself?
I call the Mystery, Consciousness for very obvious reasons to myself. The complexity of the Great Chain of Being with all of samsara's systems-within-systems operates far more intelligently than a single human consciousness in isolation. More to the point, a singular human consciousness cannot exist independently from the biosphere in which it developed, beginning with the history of an individual's development within the greater context of human evolution, within the entire history of Earth's evolution. This is not a belief system, this is an observation.
Like an hourglass with the upper part being the Formless Unmanifest of infinite potentialities, the Unmanifest passed through a 'singularity' and form manifested in a primal spacio-temporal-energetic matrix (Gamow's 'Ylem') which was purely energetic and therefore formless (except with regard to the 'edge' of the expanding energies). Over aeons, wave properties assumed particle properties, subatomic properties gave rise to atomic properties and the Great Chain of Being became manifest. Form manifested along with lawfulness. With me so far? Based on this current 'theory,' I have expressed only one 'belief' and that idea is Platonic and Kabbalistic - that the form and lawfulness of the universe is intelligence incarnate. Self-conscious intelligence - the universe aware of itself within the bio-field of a human being somehow reflects the Consciousness of the Unmanifest.
I 'believe' this and only this. No doctrine, no dogma, no mythos. I live my life to express this belief. This is the spiritual lifestyle in which Consciousness becomes the metagoal of my life - the Goal of all lesser goals. Here then is a simple description. What about it? It isn't rife with the burdens of childhood dynamics about God that you demonstrate in your own 'Ahab Complex' with every post. I'm not shaking my fist at the sky like you seem to be doing. It all comes down to being what the Scientologists call being "Clear" in any moment. It is about Realizing my nature as the Clear Light as the Buddhists call it. There is no room for big ego. There is no room for ego at all. 'I' must die,  the Unmanifest as formless potential alone lives forever because it IS Forever  . I am forever over this tedious interaction.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#7755259 - 12/13/07 07:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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The densely 'compressed file' of my Highest and Holiest Experiences are 1) not only too personal to relate in a public forum ('Do not cast pearls before swine' with swine being those who would 'trample those pearls underfoot' in the Biblical metaphor) and 2) it would be impossible to type out how certain Experiences of timeless intensity have effected the countless avenues of my own development. The metaphysical implications have, suffice to say, resulted in a very particular personality development, which in turn (like the Buddhist Eight-Fold Path) determined what kind of education, livelihood, partner, friendships, investments, charities, and all other details of my life forever after.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#7755262 - 12/13/07 07:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
What exactly do you attribute your own awareness to, btw, electrochemical processes in your cerebrum?
I don't think he's attributing it to anything. What I think he's saying(and if he's not saying it then I'll say it) is that he doesn't know and neither do you. You peak experiences may come from the supreme unmanifest, or they may come from electrochemical processes, or some combination of the two. Whichever reality tunnel you choose to accept, just acknowledge that it is in fact a belief and that you could be wrong.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#7755284 - 12/13/07 07:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Being hugely aware is not equivalent to having a huge ego.
 
You have made your own ego-centric point of view God, I have not.
What a stupid statement. I say I don't know if there is a God and am open to anything and this is your reply?
You look more and more like a true believer every word that comes out of you.
I have expressed only one 'belief' and that idea is Platonic and Kabbalistic - that the form and lawfulness of the universe is intelligence incarnate.
I have no problem with any belief that you have. You just seem to think you have a corner on what is real and true because you pontificate with a lot of verbiage. But you just sound egotistical to me. Of course fanatical true believers always think of themselves as truly open minded. You seem anything but.
It isn't rife with the burdens of childhood dynamics about God that you demonstrate in your own 'Ahab Complex' with every post. I'm not shaking my fist at the sky like you seem to be doing.
More nonsense bull pucky from yourself. Because I question the belief that there is a god does not constitute shaking a fist at the sky. If I am shaking a fist it is at the egoic posts of those that humbly admit that they know for certain what reality is and expect us to bow to their superior intellect/wisdom.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/13/07 07:08 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7755335 - 12/13/07 07:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think you guys are in love. 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7755343 - 12/13/07 07:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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In the same way I love Fivepointer. Except Markos is much more entertaining.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/13/07 07:15 PM)
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gbeatle
Stranger
Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 51
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7755498 - 12/13/07 07:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
gbeatle said:
the only reason we were put on this earth in the first place was to love. people are to ignorant and brainwashed to understand, life is short and theres no time for fussing and fighting my friends
Talk about someone mistaking his belief for a fact.
There is no solid evidence for your beliefs. Nature being red in tooth and claw.
lol whatever. only time will tell if i am right or i am wrong.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: gbeatle]
#7755626 - 12/13/07 08:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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And how, may I know, will time do that? 
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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 Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7755849 - 12/13/07 08:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I AM a true believer.
Nobody bows to me. I'm nobody's boss and nobody's daddy.
You understand nothing. Literally.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#7756350 - 12/13/07 10:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
You understand nothing. Literally.
If you think that you do, then you understand even less.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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 Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
#7757303 - 12/14/07 05:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Right! If you think that you do, you do not. If you Know, directly, unmediated, because the veils parted, then you KNOW. That is gnosis and that is mysticism. Owing to this then, I should henceforth present in the mysticism forum.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#7757463 - 12/14/07 08:17 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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That kind of pretentiousness has always been my biggest problem with gnosticism.
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