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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Give him a break. He's only a preschooler.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: God vs. Science debate [Re: Atheist]
#7754895 - 12/13/07 05:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Atheist said: I went to a debate at my college between 4 atheists and 4 religious people.
The biggest argument against the religious people was: "what made god?"
their answer was: "god is forever because it says in the bible"
the atheists were extremely outnumbered (big surprise </sarcasm>)
atleast there was free pizza
For me both sides have undefenable positions.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/13/07 05:54 PM)
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Quote:
RoosterCogburn said:
Quote:
preschooler said: my views..... it just as hard to believe the whole science thing as it is the god thing
With all those measurements, experiments and proven results I see what you mean... Stupid scientists and their concrete evidence!
A simple overview of history shows scientists are constantly reevaluating their "concrete" evidence...
Old school scientist: "Of course the earth is flat, it's obvious, just climb a mountain!"
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall



Registered: 08/25/06
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Re: God vs. Science debate [Re: Middleman]
#7755002 - 12/13/07 06:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Please... reevaluating something to make it more precise is a far cry from saying "This, um... this being that uh... exists, he controls everything and if um, you don't do what I say you will... uh, suffer for all eternity. Now pay up."
And I'm not talking about "old school science" because that was HORRIBLY CRIPPLED by religious people making shit up as they went along. I'm talking about NOW... we have lasers and telescopes and all kinds of neato stuff that SHOW US REALITY.
There is no debate. One is 99.9% fact based on reality as we know it, the other is nothing but the same old story told since the dawn of time with different characters, different afterlife and different man-made rules.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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While I agree with you in spirit you take your point too far.
neato stuff that SHOW US REALITY.
Nothing has shown me "REALITY" to my knowledge.
Yet we can mostly all agree that our senses are interpreting information as the same thing. With the God thing it's all about faith.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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TheCow
Stranger

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Re: God vs. Science debate [Re: Middleman]
#7756978 - 12/14/07 12:40 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Middleman said:
Quote:
RoosterCogburn said:
Quote:
preschooler said: my views..... it just as hard to believe the whole science thing as it is the god thing
With all those measurements, experiments and proven results I see what you mean... Stupid scientists and their concrete evidence!
A simple overview of history shows scientists are constantly reevaluating their "concrete" evidence...
Old school scientist: "Of course the earth is flat, it's obvious, just climb a mountain!"
I always love that argument. Scientists have known the world is not flat for thousands of years now. You realize the scientific method is only a few hundred years old right? Get over yourself, 'BUt SeE some guy that callEd himzelf TEH Scientistz said it was flat, therefore science is TEH WRong'
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall



Registered: 08/25/06
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Re: God vs. Science debate [Re: Icelander]
#7757140 - 12/14/07 01:58 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Nothing has shown me "REALITY" to my knowledge.
Yet we can mostly all agree that our senses are interpreting information as the same thing. With the God thing it's all about faith.
Yeah, and faith is a concept, not reality. I simply LOVE how humans associate "hoping, thinking, praying and faith" with actually having an effect on the universe... Your "faith" is absolutely meaningless to every molecule in the universe, except the ones that make up your brain.
You've seen reality.
Accepting the cold, dark truth about reality can be very difficult... but you've seen it.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: God vs. Science debate [Re: Middleman]
#7757223 - 12/14/07 04:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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> A simple overview of history shows scientists are constantly reevaluating their "concrete" evidence...
Thus science continues to improve upon itself. As you said (more or less), religion once taught everybody that the world was flat and at the center of the universe. Through experimentation, science was able to show that the world is not flat and the earth is not at the center of the universe. A few BBQ's later, and the church realized that science was correct.
So which is worse, reevaluating conclusions or burning people to death for questioning something that was written long ago?
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Tomandjerry58
Stranger
Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 5,212
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Re: God vs. Science debate [Re: Seuss]
#7757471 - 12/14/07 08:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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my wife and i have this argument like every two days.. she is an agnostic and i believe there is a god or "higher power" i was raised christian but really disagree with what the bible says. she's constantly trying to label what i am. and i don't want to be labeled anything... because honestly i really don't know what the fuck i believe in anymore.... although about the whole science thing...if someone dosn't UNDERSTAND what the hell these scientist are saying there not going to give up there right to goto heaven... just because they have concrete evidence they say. all these science shows on tv make me absoultly sick cause i have to watch them constantly (the wife)...... they make these animated picture shows of what on mars venus or saturn saying they have rivers of liquid nitrogen or what the fuck ever they are just fuckin assuming they have no idea whats on any of these fucking planets cause they have never been there......hell we don't even know whats on the bottom of our oceans...... i mean yes you can look threw a telescope and see a planet star or whatever but you can't tell me they know what the planet is made out of. thats where science fiction comes into play. the one thing i agree with is that we are pretty much out in the middle of no where.... in a endless amount of space.... and we will probably never reach another glalxy or solor system... although we can assume all day long but its not correct i don't care what you say until you can touch it, analyse it, research it. we will never know
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall



Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 8,508
Loc: Dirty South, NJ
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
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You fail to understand that science doesn't "need to be there". Once certain rules of the universe are understood, we can begin to assume things based on accumulated data.
I don't have to "be there" to know Jupiter's gravity would crush me... Jupiter is massive, meaning it has tons of gravity. Humans also didn't NEED to plant a flag on the moon to know it has much less gravity, we could simply know that by estimating it's mass.
EDIT: I thought of a better one... Get a big bowl of baking soda and dump a bottle of vinegar in there. I don't need to "be there" to tell you exactly what's going to happen.
Edited by RoosterCogburn (12/14/07 08:53 AM)
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Tomandjerry58
Stranger
Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 5,212
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how are you going to understand certain rules of the universe until u actually dicover it. do you actually believe that every element in the universe is on our planet?
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall



Registered: 08/25/06
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Loc: Dirty South, NJ
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
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Pretty much, yes.
Everything coalesced from one big huge cloud of elemental particles. There are a finite number of elementary pieces of the universe, and we've found quite alot of them right here on Earth.
There may very well be more, but since we know the atomic structure of things, and the general way things semm to work we can assume the rest pretty spot on.
Subatomic laws get funky, but we are working on those!
One day, science may have the AH HA! moment where we figure it all out once and for all... but I am 100% certain we will not find any "god".
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
RoosterCogburn said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Nothing has shown me "REALITY" to my knowledge.
Yet we can mostly all agree that our senses are interpreting information as the same thing. With the God thing it's all about faith.
Yeah, and faith is a concept, not reality. I simply LOVE how humans associate "hoping, thinking, praying and faith" with actually having an effect on the universe... Your "faith" is absolutely meaningless to every molecule in the universe, except the ones that make up your brain.
You've seen reality.
Accepting the cold, dark truth about reality can be very difficult... but you've seen it.
I agree about faith. I dont' have faith in it.
I may have seen/perceived reality but then my brain did an end run around it and interpreted it for me. This created a belief between me and that so called reality. The act of observation changed something.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/14/07 09:56 AM)
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: God vs. Science debate [Re: Seuss]
#7757696 - 12/14/07 09:54 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > A simple overview of history shows scientists are constantly reevaluating their "concrete" evidence...
Thus science continues to improve upon itself. As you said (more or less), religion once taught everybody that the world was flat and at the center of the universe. Through experimentation, science was able to show that the world is not flat and the earth is not at the center of the universe. A few BBQ's later, and the church realized that science was correct.
So which is worse, reevaluating conclusions or burning people to death for questioning something that was written long ago?
My point is we shouldn't believe 100% what science states as "proven fact" because it may soon be disproved.
Science has recently found life in places on the Earth where it "shouldn't" exist, neurons in parts of the body other than the brain and spine, and planets orbiting pulsars...
Scientist: "Impossible!"
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
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Re: God vs. Science debate [Re: Middleman]
#7758055 - 12/14/07 11:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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> My point is we shouldn't believe 100% what science states as "proven fact" because it may soon be disproved.
Ah, this is based upon a misunderstanding of "fact" with respect to science. A "fact" in science is something that is accepted by the scientific community as likely being correct. Not absolutely correct, but likely correct. It is apparent, based upon what I have read over the years, that many non-scientists do not understand that in science "facts" and "laws" are highly probables, not absolutes.
(Some facts in science are absolute, but by definition rather than observation. For example, nothing can be colder than the temperature absolute zero; by definition rather than observation.)
> Scientist [says]: "Impossible!"
Other scientists hear: "Improbable."
Don't damn science (or math for that matter) because the vocabulary doesn't mean exactly what you expect it to in a literary sense.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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niteowl
GrandPaw



Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Quote:
preschooler said: i mean yes you can look threw a telescope and see a planet star or whatever but you can't tell me they know what the planet is made out of. thats where science fiction comes into play.
It is quite easy to tell what a star is made of by putting its light through a prism. The prism breaks the light down so we can see what kind of star it is, and what it is burning to make fuel.
We can also estimate the mass of a planet orbiting said star by watching the star wobble back and forth over a long period of time. Most planets found so far are huge massive ones orbiting near their home star.
Science has come a LONG way in the last 20 years.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Tomandjerry58
Stranger
Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 5,212
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Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: You fail to understand that science doesn't "need to be there". Once certain rules of the universe are understood, we can begin to assume things based on accumulated data.
I don't have to "be there" to know Jupiter's gravity would crush me... Jupiter is massive, meaning it has tons of gravity. Humans also didn't NEED to plant a flag on the moon to know it has much less gravity, we could simply know that by estimating it's mass.
EDIT: I thought of a better one... Get a big bowl of baking soda and dump a bottle of vinegar in there. I don't need to "be there" to tell you exactly what's going to happen.
we know what happens when you mix an acid with a base because its been done before. and recorded. they didn't know it until they experimented.
if you think that every element particle exist on this earth u are being very narrowminded because the universe is an infinate space and ur science is actiually proved that.also they have found meteors on earth that contained alien elements so that disproves it right there. don't look at as white and black one way or another...its three deminsional and with an endless amount of details..
you shouldn't be afraid of "god" or always disprove the bible even though i honestly think the bible is a big story book.
you see its givin your civilization morals a thought of afterlife... hell it even is the basis for law and order and ur constitution. so i think you should gives thanks to it so that you could live in a society where people will not commit crimes against organized civilization. so you can actually have freedom to have ur atheist thoughts or beliefs.....
maybe off the subject a little bit but i honestly think that religon higher power or whatever is in our dna just like sex, alchol, or drug abuse, addiction etc......................
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Are you an alien being from the Mystery forum of deep space. ?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/14/07 12:20 PM)
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Tomandjerry58
Stranger
Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 5,212
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Re: God vs. Science debate [Re: Icelander]
#7758253 - 12/14/07 12:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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actually im carl sagan back from the dead
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