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 Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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 Whats wrong with the P+S heads? 
#7748761 - 12/12/07 11:07 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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seriously.
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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skydog
Coffee & Blunts
Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 2,486
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7748807 - 12/12/07 11:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ginseng1 said:
seriously.
Either Nothing or Infinitely nothing. I'm not quite sure. 
WRAP UR HEAD AROUND THAT ONE, LOL
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 Jack Albertson
bismillah rahmani rahim
Registered: 04/14/06
Posts: 10,065
Loc: SOLARIS
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: skydog]
#7748828 - 12/12/07 11:20 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I dont really understand them either. It seems like they get off on trying to debunk everything that anyone says.
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Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7748858 - 12/12/07 11:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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What's with divisive people who try to draw lines between themselves and others? Where's the love?
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7749705 - 12/12/07 02:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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the P&S forum has different goals than M&P - nothing wrong with that.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7749746 - 12/12/07 02:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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We are the children of Satan and drink virgin's blood 
Other than that we're pretty cool 
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Jack Albertson]
#7749788 - 12/12/07 03:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
ts727 said:
I dont really understand them either. It seems like they get off on trying to debunk everything that anyone says.
I've actually been on both sides of the fence here, and now I stand between them. Here's my thoughts on skeptics and debunkers:
First of all, they are not one in the same, though most debunkers like to think of themselves as skeptics. A skeptic responds to the claim by saying, "Do you have any evidence for this?" If not, they do not dismiss the claim as rubbish, but suspend judgment until such evidence can be produced. Debunkers have decided a priori that the claim is bogus, and want to prove to everyone that they're right and the person making the claim is bogus. It's kind of like a dominant, alpha-male mindset(which is not to say that such people are necessarily male).
From my experience, not everyone is all of one and none of the other. I've found even the most egotistical of debunkers to have moments of open-mindedness. I should also note that "believers" can be just as close-minded(in the debunker's view, it is only the believers who are close-minded). I think the real enemy here is certainty. When someone "knows" that their view is right and another's view is wrong, then there is not much room for genuine discussion. Just a shouting match. If, however, you accept that accept that your perceptions are gambles, and that you might learn something from someone else's point of view, then the tendency towards hostility will be greatly diminished.
These days, I try hard not to make absolute claims of truth, but to make it clear that my beliefs are only my best guesses based on my experiences. If I have paranormal experiences, I make it clear that I'm not sure about them, but that there seemed to be something unusual about them. If I was completely confident in some paranormal ability, then I would take the JREF challenge, but I would do it because I wanted to, not because some arrogant debunker rolls their eyes and waves it in my face. That is one thing that annoys me about these people. They act like we have a duty to take that challenge, and I've been accused of being selfish for not wanting to do it. If they could understand and accept that I'm not interested in proving everything I talk about, and that not everything I want to discuss is meant as an assertion, we could all save ourselves a bunch of hassle.
At the same time, the "mystic heads," as they are derogatorily called, need to understand that if you are asserting something to be true, and it conflicts with someone else's worldview, they will naturally want evidence of such a claim. They don't have to be rude about it, but you have to understand that people's egos are invested in their reality tunnels, just as you are invested in yours, so naturally tempers can flare and misunderstandings can happen. The best thing we can do is all take a chill pill and try to appreciate where the other person is coming from.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7750021 - 12/12/07 04:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Competition and psychosis.
Although they may well say the same about us.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7750043 - 12/12/07 04:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Only half of what you said is true.
You're right about the latter 
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7750065 - 12/12/07 04:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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In Zen, the master tries to surprise, frighten, befuddle, anger, and pose difficult or unanswerable questions to her or his students in order to awaken them. Students likewise can test the master in a similar manner. The way I see it, much of what P&S is about is a bunch of students who are pushing each other to question their assumptions by whatever means they have. It is unwise to ever believe that one has come to a satisfactory understanding of the experience of being alive, and the goal of most P&Sers is to keep one another on our toes, to push one another to live on "the razor's edge of the present", as Eckhart Tolle described Zen practice. That's how I approach P&S, anyway.
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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Lion]
#7750087 - 12/12/07 04:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
bug said:
In Zen, the master tries to surprise, frighten, befuddle, anger, and pose difficult or unanswerable questions to her or his students in order to awaken them. Students likewise can test the master in a similar manner. The way I see it, much of what P&S is about is a bunch of students who are pushing each other to question their assumptions by whatever means they have. It is unwise to ever believe that one has come to a satisfactory understanding of the experience of being alive, and the goal of most P&Sers is to keep one another on our toes, to push one another to live on "the razor's edge of the present", as Eckhart Tolle described Zen practice. That's how I approach P&S, anyway.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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 Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Jack Albertson]
#7750442 - 12/12/07 05:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
ts727 said:
It seems like they get off on trying to debunk everything that anyone says.
Debunk wha~...!? Everything....? Everyone....?
They do not, got any proof to back that statement up....? 
>^;;^<
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I'll be your midnight French Fry.... 
"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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sleepy
zZzZzZzZz
Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 3,888
Loc: 
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7751357 - 12/12/07 09:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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they think too much
Edited by sleepy (12/12/07 09:06 PM)
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mushbaby
woodswalker
Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 2,645
Loc: in my own lil world
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: sleepy]
#7751572 - 12/12/07 09:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't think anything is wrong with them. I just think alot of them are different from me.
I sometimes feel sorry for the ones who just can't admit that maybe there are things that are unexplainable. And I think there has to be an emptiness when there is no ability to just believe something might be possible regardless of how improbable.
I am sure that some of them feel sorry for us, thinking we are deluded and nuts. THat's ok. We can't all be the same. Think how boring a place it would be.
Bug, you always say some great things. I've said it before, I love to read your posts. 
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SoY
I am the LizardKing
Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: sleepy]
#7751587 - 12/12/07 09:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
bug said:
In Zen, the master tries to surprise, frighten, befuddle, anger, and pose difficult or unanswerable questions to her or his students in order to awaken them. Students likewise can test the master in a similar manner. The way I see it, much of what P&S is about is a bunch of students who are pushing each other to question their assumptions by whatever means they have. It is unwise to ever believe that one has come to a satisfactory understanding of the experience of being alive, and the goal of most P&Sers is to keep one another on our toes, to push one another to live on "the razor's edge of the present", as Eckhart Tolle described Zen practice. That's how I approach P&S, anyway.
   
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"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: SoY]
#7751625 - 12/12/07 10:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
SoY said:
Quote:
bug said:
In Zen, the master tries to surprise, frighten, befuddle, anger, and pose difficult or unanswerable questions to her or his students in order to awaken them. Students likewise can test the master in a similar manner. The way I see it, much of what P&S is about is a bunch of students who are pushing each other to question their assumptions by whatever means they have. It is unwise to ever believe that one has come to a satisfactory understanding of the experience of being alive, and the goal of most P&Sers is to keep one another on our toes, to push one another to live on "the razor's edge of the present", as Eckhart Tolle described Zen practice. That's how I approach P&S, anyway.
Cool. I dig that.
I just can't see the line they are trying to push. They are all trying to push questions and answers from all directions and don't get anywhere.
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: mushbaby]
#7752552 - 12/13/07 04:21 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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*generic response - not directed at any specific poster*
I have been through this a thousand times, but the wall of ignorance is just too thick in the closed mind of a believer. Facts have no bearing. Lack of real world evidence has no bearing. Common sense, logic and rationality have no bearing.
Maybe my associate that died in the Heaven's Gate suicide cult really did go to the alien mother ship behind the comet, but if you people truly believe that then psychiatric help is advised.
Maybe God really did tell Bush to kill innocent civilians and destabilize a region, but I am betting it was to make Halliburton stock go up a hundred-fold...
Every single claim made by a believer THAT CAN BE TESTED has fallen flat.
What happened to the spells put on me? What happened in my remote viewing test that no one got even close to?
Ask Shroomism why he stiffed me out of $20,000 when Planet X failed to appear. I had the cash and would have honored it, but I was the bad guy - right?
Do we really need yet another recap? Apparently so.
Famous (1938?) Loch Ness photo - plywood as admitted by the photographer.
Famous 1914 Fairie photo - darkroom magic as admitted by the photographer on her death bed.
Famous Big Foot 8 mm film (1978?) - hoax as admitted by the photographer
Face (and city) on Mars - trick of light
Talking to the dead as per Van Praagh, Edward and others - cold reading
Harmonic Convergence - nothing
Nostradamus 1999 end of world scenario - nothing
Gulf Breeze UFO sitings - hoax
Phoenix Lights - military flares
Telekinesis/telepathy - never been publicly demonstrated
Chi - basic bio-mechanics
Pyramid Power - nothing
Crystal power - nothing
Over-unity devices - nothing
Plants (and water crystals) responding to emotions - nope
Being able to tell when being stared at or seeing auras - nope. Fails every time when tested.
Knowing who is calling? Fails when tested.
Levitation? Nope.
Predictions? No accurate ones on record.
The Power of Prayer - no affect.
Homeopathy - no affect.
On and on the bullshit flows with a fresh new crop of believers every year - all hopeful-eyed and looking for magic.
How many thousands of times must I be right when it comes to esoterica? My batting record is 100%. Is that arrogance and close-mindedness?
How many issues brought up by believers in esoterica have come to pass? Umm....... ZERO! That's right. Never. Nunca.
And don't forget to bash rationalism as we communicate via a device based on logic and science.
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Mastamike1118
Registered: 03/29/07
Posts: 2,010
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and thats a problem.....
whos testing and what are they testing??????????????
could it be possible some things cant be tested???????????? cmon now
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Mastamike1118]
#7752603 - 12/13/07 05:26 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Anything that a human does that has an affect on this world can be tested. Simple.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
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> Anything that a human does that has an affect on this world can be tested.
However, through science, we know that observation has a direct effect on the testing. With this in mind, one could claim that the act of testing is invalidating the results. (Not that I buy the excuse, but... is it not valid?)
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Just another spore in the wind.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Seuss]
#7752640 - 12/13/07 06:10 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Incredibly weak response. 
How can a human report an unobserved phenomenon without making it up? Answer: He/she can't.
An impartial observer no more affects a phenomenom than a biased observer. The difference is the impartial observer limits the variables and conditions to isolate a phenomenon from background noise.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
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> An impartial observer no more affects a phenomenom than a biased observer.
I'm talking about observer versus no observer, not biased versus unbiased. As I said, I don't buy the excuse, but I think it is valid.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Seuss]
#7752655 - 12/13/07 06:19 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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No observer = no phenomenon. Which part is difficult?
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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How can a human capture a ghost or an alien craft and test it?
How can we capture a spontaneous telepathic experience and test it?
You are largely correct, that I don't deny!
But it also a fact that you cannot ASSUME all things into one category.
So you found some UFO sightings that appear to be most likely hoaxes and this warrants a total disbelief for a huge realm of possibility?
That is the problem, a debunker is biased. He acts on previous experience as opposed to taking each case individually.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
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> No observer = no phenomenon. Which part is difficult?
So nothing happens unless it is observed?
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Just another spore in the wind.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7752816 - 12/13/07 08:00 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Many times I have asked UFO buffs for their absolute BEST evidence and it was severely lacking.
Do people lie?
Do people exaggerate?
Do people like to tell stories?
Do people misidentify/fill in incomplete data with whatever they want to see?
We know these things are part of being human, so to believe more than that something solid needs to be presented. Hasn't happened yet.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Seuss]
#7752817 - 12/13/07 08:02 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Are you being deliberately obtuse/trolling?
How can one report something that has not been observed? Third time now.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
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> Are you being deliberately obtuse/trolling?
No, but I am trying to avoid dropping down into "science" and it is giving me difficulties. I'm not very good at debating this side.
> How can one report something that has not been observed?
Using the double slit experiment as an example. Electrons shot at a double slit generate interference patterns the same as waves. We can observe this. However, if we test to see which slit an electron goes through, the interference patters disappear and the electrons are observed to behave as particles instead. As soon as we stop testing to see which slit the electrons are going through, the interference patters return as the electrons start to behave like waves again.
In the metaphysical sense, is it not reasonable to consider that the act of testing "something", as opposed to simply observing "something" when it happens, negates the "something" from happening.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
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mystic and science are two sides of the same coin.
I dont think one reigns over the other and I dont support either as absolute. Imposition of one on the other (like this thread) is silly.
But on the other hand I think the rational purists have had this coming. A superiority complex often arises because abstraction by nature tends to be overpowered by the more grounded rational, logical aspect of nature. But in this "pure logic" certain irrationalities are very often implied. Has anyone seen the movie the illusionist? This should be the official movie of the shroomery!
We all worship something, in a general sense this is the artistic nature of the universe. Thats why we ALL live. If you can think of a reason of living besides being to afraid to kill yourself, you worship something that is irrational in nature.
The best pure rationality might explain art, or the development of sensuality, is that patterns of complexity arise out of chaos. But this is not at all art itself, merely the materiality it arises from.
The thing is many rationalists would have you believe they do not worship anything, but we all know they do.;)
Mystic is implicit, science is explicit. For me, they dont necessarily conflict 
Edited by daytripper23 (12/13/07 09:23 AM)
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vitadura
Dream Seeker
Registered: 03/11/07
Posts: 451
Loc: Here, Now
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7752911 - 12/13/07 09:12 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
What's with divisive people who try to draw lines between themselves and others? Where's the love?
This is (more or less) what I was thinking when I opened the thread. But I also have to give kudos to bug for making such a great statement on the subject as well.
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"You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here." -Max Ehrmann, Desiderata
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SoY
I am the LizardKing
Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: vitadura]
#7752927 - 12/13/07 09:28 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
daytripper23 said:
Mystic is implicit, science is explicit. For me, they dont necessarily conflict
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"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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How many times have you completely ignored my best evidence?
I gave you some of the best cases known and all you did was revert to your "Yeah but the Phoenix lights were flares" and ignore all the good evidence.
Besides thats not the point.
This is (what I already said):
That is the problem, a debunker is biased. He acts on previous experience as opposed to taking each case individually.
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Middleman
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7753009 - 12/13/07 09:57 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Do I need to move this thread to P+S?
OC, I feel sorry for you. Where is the magic, mystery, and wonder in your fundamaterialist tunnel?
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: daytripper23]
#7753017 - 12/13/07 09:59 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mystic and science are two sides of the same coin.
They should be but they are not.
Science tends to reject human experience. Scientists that study some things are deemed to be non-credible. When science itself has these unwritten human social rules how can it be completely true to its original goal?
Science is capable of discerning that strange phenomena exist. That is clear to most logical human beings. Yet for a scientist to admit that, is professional suicide.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7753569 - 12/13/07 12:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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> Science tends to reject human experience.
Not really. Science demands repeatability. If the "human experience" is repeatable, then science can validate it. If there is no repeatability, then there can be no proof, thus science is not applicable. Look at the James Randi challenge; a challenge to find somebody that claims to have some metaphysical ability and can reproduce their ability in the lab. It isn't science that has failed here, but rather the "human experience" that has failed. Rather than blame science, why not ask why not one single person has been able to reproduce their claimed ability in a controlled setting?
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Seuss]
#7753691 - 12/13/07 01:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Human experience has been repeating itself.
Its the lab conditions required, I suppose you could call that repeatability. Its not likely we can get a ghost, an alien craft or a spontaneous telepathic experience into a lab.
I've experienced them all but I do not control when/if they will repeat.
The problem is science wants these things which are not (consciously at least) controlled by humans to be repeated on demand?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7753806 - 12/13/07 01:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Science doesn't "want" anything.
God damn it, why is it SO hard to understand that these things must be tested first, before they are validated, because people will live their lives according to those validations?
Let me give you an example: there are these so-called healers which pretend to get the cancer out of you and god knows what else.
Now if science would give them any credit just like that and validate what they sustain, everybody would start contacting those "healers", get ripped off and die... obviously because they were not healed. 
I am not saying that it isn't possible that there might be some people who possess such powers because I honestly don't know. All I am arguing about is the importance of validating those phenomenons.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7753981 - 12/13/07 02:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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On the subject of ETs.
One must be spiritually competent to understand/comprehend/accept the the great possibility and truth about intelligent life that is abundant throughout the universe. This is no longer a matter of wishful thinking or "belief". This is knowledge that is yet to be undisclosed but there is a BIG undergroud movement. Things are coming out slowly but surely simply because of the implications are of intelligent life interacting with humans at a level that is very much unexpected. Because there are as of yet 100% tangible proofs out there (although there are in many circles), this DOES mean we have to keep fighting for evidence, but it also means that we CANT keep scoffing off such possibilities. The implications that might exist are UNFATHOMABLE.
They do exist.
We must all expand our awareness and understand that there are no singularities in the universe, except MAYBE the universe itself. There are mutiples of EVERYTHING. Stars, galaxies, planets, blackholes, animals, INTELLIGENT LIFE MUCH MORE ADVANCED THAN US.
Many people have seen UFOs in the sky. Myself included, and alot of people I know. We have heard various reports of abduction all over the world. We have footage. We have pictures. We have people talking about what could very well be the truth. To ignore the possiblities is infantile.
Now, its fair to say that the ufo's we have seen could be government aircraft. It's possible, but when people actually research deep into this category, they see that it connects with everypart of humanities existance and even that of the quantum and external universe.
It is the "doubt" that keeps us back. We are taking babysteps as a race and "they" know this. Just like many animalia below us.
IF anybody wants proof as to the "UFO PHENOMENON AND ETs".. all I cansay is START RESEARCHING! THERE ARE SEAS WORTH OF INFO ON THE SUBJECT JUST TAKE TIME AND OPEN YOUR EYES!!!!!!!
There is something wrong when people feel good about saying.. "bahh fuck off! show me the money!" on the subject. It's all out there, you have all the tools.
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7753991 - 12/13/07 02:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, it is HIGHLY impossible that we are alone in this Universe, and I don't think that anyone has made that statement that E.T.s don't exist.
What we argue about is them visiting our planet.
Can you note the difference?
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Many times I have asked UFO buffs for their absolute BEST evidence and it was severely lacking.
Do people lie?
Do people exaggerate?
Do people like to tell stories?
Do people misidentify/fill in incomplete data with whatever they want to see?
We know these things are part of being human, so to believe more than that something solid needs to be presented. Hasn't happened yet.
Very, very much backwards thinking IMO.
Everybody makes up stories on UFOs because it's fun? Because they are bored?
Why don't you research in the subject and connect the dots?
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7754050 - 12/13/07 02:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cool. I dig that.
I just can't see the line they are trying to push. They are all trying to push questions and answers from all directions and don't get anywhere.
Where would one be trying to get? A static concept of reality?
Speaking from personal experience, many of my moments of greatest clarity have been sparked by the words of P&S posters, including words of seeming antagonism toward or even dismissal of the ideas I put forth.
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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7754059 - 12/13/07 02:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Shows what you know then?
Healing is very real.
You don't get 'ripped off' if the results you paid for are achieved.
I don't think the mechanism is mystical healing waves. I think the mechanism is the human mind. Healers can activate that mechanism.
So science can claim a method to be bullshit because it actuality the mechanism is different? That is narrow minded. Healing works. You can call it placebo, you can call it whatever.
Are you aware that common headache tablets (aspirin, paracetamol) do not have a better rate of success than placebo?
People with your line of logic completely disregard it as 'ripped off' despite the factor of success, now that is idiotic.
Of course science wants. It wants to prove thing within test conditions, that what science does. It sets out to prove or disprove but within limited conditions. My only problem with that is that there is a clear flaw in procedure here because you cannot test what cannot be tested. Does that mean its not real? To some, apparently so...
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7754085 - 12/13/07 02:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think you're missing the point. People don't necessarily make up UFO stories on purpose(though some obviously do). The fact is, however, that people will see things that they can't quite identify, and then fill in the blank as to what they saw. I once thought I saw a UFO, but it turned out to be Venus. Several UFO sightings can be readily explained. Others simply remain unidentified. It seems like a cop-out to say that because we can't identify it that it therefore must be an alien spaceship.
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daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7754104 - 12/13/07 02:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Science doesn't "want" anything.
I disagree.
At its heart, the scientific process is human, even if it is a systematic. The human element of the scientific process debunks purely and inarguably for the sake of progress. As long as life drives the system, it wills it.
Further, science is at most a study of function. We do not understand at all what something is, outside of how it acts and reacts. So in other words, although science can understand certain aspects of the nature of substance, we will never in this reality know the substance of nature.
I personally think the major flaw of modernism is that we construct our reality through science as if it is in itself substancial, allowing these technologies to define us.
Creative usage of colors eh?
Edited by daytripper23 (12/13/07 03:07 PM)
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7754105 - 12/13/07 02:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Yes, it is HIGHLY impossible that we are alone in this Universe, and I don't think that anyone has made that statement that E.T.s don't exist.
What we argue about is them visiting our planet.
Can you note the difference?
If they exist, which they do, then why do you refuse to look at reasons as to why they may be here. How is it possible? What do they want? Look into it.
If we KNOW they have been visiting us, then you want to ask as to proof as to WHAT they are doing.. then research! Look into EXOPOLITICS, read some abduction reports, read what is reporter, look at pictures, LOOK UP AT THE FUCKIN SKIES! There is proof that they are visiting us! If you think about why the reasns will flood in! It makes MORE sense for them to be here, as opposed to the other way around. If you can become intune with the vibrations of the universe you would understant.
Understand energy, the ability to move faster then light, the unlimited possibilities that the mind is capable of. Group minds that have existed before humans that have had much more time to really use their minds and develop technology to be here. The universe is an estimated 14 billion years. So we think of possibilities. We are an estimated 10,000 years old. Hmm.. so.. if we DONT argue that ETs exist (I think we all can accept that they do) wouldn't it be very much plausible that they have advance to a degree far greater than we could imagine. And that their idea of "home" goes beyond a planet. Ther is a universal ecology that exists. It's not just about planets. It's not just about our planet and the sun. It's about the entire universe and the thing called LIFE that lives inside of it.
It's about a more advanced conciousness.
There is much literature.
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7754131 - 12/13/07 03:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
If we KNOW they have been visiting us
And there's the catch: we don't know. We don't have any fingerprints, DNA(or whatever genetic code they have), or any solid evidence other than reports from people claiming to have seen them. I don't discount the possibility that they're visiting us, but we certainly don't KNOW that to be the case.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7754156 - 12/13/07 03:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Healing is very real.
Yeah, so where's the evidence?
Quote:
You don't get 'ripped off' if the results you paid for are achieved.
So how come that no healer can show that they actually healed somebody?
But there are evidence and stories about people who contacted healers and they health condition kept getting worse and eventually died.
Quote:
Are you aware that common headache tablets (aspirin, paracetamol) do not have a better rate of success than placebo?
Source? 
And yes, while in some cases (like headaches ), self suggestion works, tel me how does it work for AIDS? Or cancer? Or heart conditions, strokes and so on?
Why isn't there any healer to show that they can actually heap someone? 
How easy do I have to make it for you, so you can comprehend? 
Quote:
People with your line of logic completely disregard it as 'ripped off' despite the factor of success, now that is idiotic.
No, what is idiotic is to keep going on & on talking about the factor of success and have nothing to back it up.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7754182 - 12/13/07 03:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
I think you're missing the point. People don't necessarily make up UFO stories on purpose(though some obviously do). The fact is, however, that people will see things that they can't quite identify, and then fill in the blank as to what they saw. I once thought I saw a UFO, but it turned out to be Venus. Several UFO sightings can be readily explained. Others simply remain unidentified. It seems like a cop-out to say that because we can't identify it that it therefore must be an alien spaceship.
No I am not missing the point. I understand what you're saying.
ALL UFOS are unidentified, hence the abbv. I'm not going to sit here and tell you, I SAW A LIGHT IN THE SKY IT WAS AN ALIEN!
No, I will say to you there are UFOs in the sky.. SOMETHING IS GOING ON!! Lets try to see how much we can find out!
Why do you have doctors who speak of the subject so intensely? What's up with all the whistle-blowers and the song they're singing? Wow.. they must be so tired and bored.. lets just pretend like what they are saying is nonsense and we shouldn't think about the implications of their song.
So because normal folk see UFOs in the sky, they shouldnt assume that it could be aliens? What if there are reports on abduction, reports of contact, sketchy power structures within the governments, the things that governments do, the distractions that exist, the patters we are not aware of? A simple and natural understanding of thyneself, energy, life, and the universe is enough reason to believe that they are here, on this planet, and they actualy know more about us than we do them.
Now stop looking for proof of their visitation and look for reasons as to WHY they are visiting us.
Thats when thing really start coming together so it is highly recommended!
I have gotten several of my friends into the subject. I'd say most people are just scared to look into the subject.
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7754197 - 12/13/07 03:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ohhh, Jesus on ice skates.
Yeah, I read tones of abduction files, I looked at the fucking skies, I saw "UFO's" and I have TONES of imagination to fuckin think about speeds faster than light & stuff. In fact it's pretty cool to let my imagination go on and on about stuff like this.
WHAT does it have to do with reality, is the question.
I am not totally excluding the possibility that E.T.s might be visiting our planet, examining us or whatever.
It possible, but there are OTHER, more possible possibilities than that. It is far more possible that those UFOs are human made, than it is possible for them to be from somewhere outside of this planet.
And since you took the liberty in suggesting me some readings, I'll suggest you some too:
http://exploringdata.cqu.edu.au/probabil.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7754206 - 12/13/07 03:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Why isn't there any healer to show that they can actually heap someone?
Well because the healer doesnt heal you, you heal yourself. It's all in the mind. A healer only poses as a reason to believe. Thats how they work. If you don't believe, then it ain't gonna do much for you. Thats why you have people that heal and people that dont.
Thats what placebo studies are trying to tell you. This goes the same with studies invlolbing knee surgeries. The placebo was there. It's real.
Are you a happy person because you believe you can be, or are you happy because you agree with your environment?
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7754214 - 12/13/07 03:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Gosh darn everyone ignored my nifty use of colors  .
O well thats it for me. 
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7754220 - 12/13/07 03:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
It possible, but there are OTHER, more possible possibilities than that. It is far more possible that those UFOs are human made, than it is possible for them to be from somewhere outside of this planet.
Oh please... why is it MORE possible for UFOs to be a product of human makings?
wow.. I don't understand..
Are you telling me just because you THINK that its more possible for the alien agenda to be manmade that we should ignore the implications if they were not manmade?
Should we choose to believe they were manmade because its EASIER.
Yea.. it's a hell of alot to believe in whats "easier" than what has deeper and stranger implications.
*What does it have to do with reality?*
EVERYTHING! The reality we live in is the lie. All the distractions everywhere. We are not aware of the reality! That is the issue here.
Edited by Ginseng1 (12/13/07 03:24 PM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7754222 - 12/13/07 03:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thats why you have people that heal and people that dont.
And I'm asking again, WHERE are those people who healed, to tell the world that they healed by believing?
Quote:
Are you a happy person because you believe you can be, or are you happy because you agree with your environment?
I am happy because my Will is to be happy.
It has nothing to do with belief or surroundings, it has to do with INTENTION, and acting upon that intention.
The difference:
FAITH: I believe I can have apple. And that wait for the apple to... show up 
WILL: My intention is to eat a god damn apple, so I'd better move my ass, grab an apple, and eat it.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7754231 - 12/13/07 03:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Just curious, MushroomTrip: I think you've posted here before about practicing Reiki. Have you seen it heal anyone? Do you no longer believe in it? Or do you just use it for non-healing purposes?
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7754244 - 12/13/07 03:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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So what about unhappy people, are they so because it's their WILL to be unhappy, or because they dont believe they can be.
hmmmmmm?
Happiness is a choice, a choice depending on what you BELIEVE. I believe that life is beautiful, despite the ugliness.
Belief is much more powerful that will.
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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Middleman
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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 Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7754245 - 12/13/07 03:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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What's with the Us vs. Them mentality?
We are ALL Shroomerites, and some of us enjoy both P+S and M+P.
I view the two forums as the Yang and Yin of the Shroomery's Tao.
Though I will say some Shroomerites need to Shroom more often, increase their dosage... and take notes!
You know who who are...
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7754250 - 12/13/07 03:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I use it on me and friends who feel bad or sick, but, for example, if a friend shows up and tells me hey I have the flu or whatever else, I always tell them to keep taking their medication.
When I use it on me, it works. But I never was in the situation to use it on more than head aches & similar simple things like that.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7754256 - 12/13/07 03:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I know someone who used Reiki on his mother and her cancer went away. He still has trouble believing it, but everyone who was there says it was real. Not that it proves anything, but I always thought it was a cool story.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7754269 - 12/13/07 03:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ginseng1 said:
So what about unhappy people, are they so because it's their WILL to be unhappy, or because they dont believe they can be.
hmmmmmm?
Happiness is a choice, a choice depending on what you BELIEVE. I believe that life is beautiful, despite the ugliness.
Belief is much more powerful that will.
Unhappy people have the will to be unhappy. As weird as it might sound, I am getting more and more convinced about that. Why they do it? Because they feel more comfortable this way.
I know this by observation and also from personal experience, remembering how it felt and WHY back in the days when I felt miserable.
Oh, and yes, simply saying that faith is more powerful then will doesn't make it true.
I also said faith id wishful thinking.
Will is wishful thinking combined with action.
Hmmmmm... I wonder which one works better... 
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7754273 - 12/13/07 03:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Come to think of it, I've always found there's a certain double-edged sword when it comes to scientific validation of healing. If a person continues taking their medication after the healing, the scientist will attribute their healing to the medicine. If, however, they stop taking their medication and die, the skeptics will be all over it decrying the deadliness of faith. Personally, if I have cancer, I wouldn't mind trying to get healed at Lourdes cathedral and taking chemotherapy, and I wouldn't care which one did the healing. It seems one has to take a greater risk with their lives in order to satisfy scientific skepticism, and frankly, I'd rather just be thought a superstitious fool than risk my life like that.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7754288 - 12/13/07 03:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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It is a cool story
But do you agree with me on the fact that it is much wiser and efficient to check these things out and subject them to different tests (and now I am not saying that these are the best methods, but this is what we have until now), before taking them as being true?
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7754296 - 12/13/07 03:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't take anything to be more than a conditional truth.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7754342 - 12/13/07 03:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I never brought into discussion that there might be another kind of truth.
We know so little about our conditions, so we do have limited means of testing what works and what doesn't in these conditions. Still, i think that until now, the scientific method has shown to have the most results.
And that as it keeps expanding, more unexplainable things become explainable, through science.
This only makes me think that maybe, some day, some of the things that we call "paranormal" right now, will be easily explained.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7754438 - 12/13/07 04:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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We need a mod here stat!
This has turned into a sad show of people trying to argue as to why we shouldn't believe in great, great things until they are proven. So until they are proven, we shouldn't believe in them?
Nobody here cares to believe in trivial things. We choose to believe in things which have profound effects in our reality because they are very well possible. We aren't concerned with believing in apples. We are concerned in believing that there is a greater awareness to be part of, but until that "awareness" is proven, we should't concern ourselves with it? We are still too new to know all the answers, but until then have the faith that the answers do exist and that there is more than just 1 equation in the universe.
It's not like someone here is going to believe they can fly and jump off a building. Nobody is going to get hurt, so let the open-minds fly!
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7754478 - 12/13/07 04:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Oh come on, you can't be serious.
You asked what's wrong with P&S heads, and now that you found out you feel hurt?
What did you expect, a trial at which we would be absent?
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7754489 - 12/13/07 04:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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OK,
so you practice reiki but then you try to argue that and constantly use a laughing gremlin, ()
maybe we can write a book on that, eh?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Middleman]
#7754496 - 12/13/07 04:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
OC, I feel sorry for you. Where is the magic, mystery, and wonder in your fundamaterialist tunnel?
Where is the mystery in committing suicide to visit an alien spacecraft?
Where is the magic in building one's life around a hoax?
Where is the wonder in believing in things that are untrue?
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7754500 - 12/13/07 04:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm hurt now? Pleeeeeeeeease.
Your emotions are getting tickled because i must have touched on something with the title of my thread.
I don't care if you dont want to see things a certain way, thats fine. This is M&P and I was trying to find out what it is with people like you? Clearly the underlying reasons would be "paranormal" because it just doesn't make much sense.. this barrier that humans put up everywhere..
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
Edited by Ginseng1 (12/13/07 04:35 PM)
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Stop attributing another posters words to your own ideas.
He wasn't referring to the heavens gate incident and everybody knows that.
Only you were.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7754550 - 12/13/07 04:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Personally, if I have cancer, I wouldn't mind trying to get healed at Lourdes cathedral and taking chemotherapy, and I wouldn't care which one did the healing
1. I apparently am way more curious than you. I would actually want to try to understand the mechanics behind the healing so that the process could be fine-tuned and used to help others. Taking a shotgun approach tells us very little.
2. The spontaneous healings at Lourdes are statistically slighty LOWER than spontaneous healings among non-pilgrims. What does that tell us of the nature of faith and miracles?
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Personally, if I have cancer, I wouldn't mind trying to get healed at Lourdes cathedral and taking chemotherapy, and I wouldn't care which one did the healing
1. I apparently am way more curious than you. I would actually want to try to understand the mechanics behind the healing so that the process could be fine-tuned and used to help others. Taking a shotgun approach tells us very little.
2. The spontaneous healings at Lourdes are statistically slighty LOWER than spontaneous healings among non-pilgrims. What does that tell us of the nature of faith and miracles?
Don't believe in institutions, believe in thyne self.
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7754597 - 12/13/07 04:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
so you practice reiki but then you try to argue that
Repetition is always a good way to increase memory
and constantly use a laughing gremlin, ()
Good good you're making progress
Quote:
maybe we can write a book on that, eh?
I wouldn't write a book with you because honestly I think you suck as a writer. 
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7754601 - 12/13/07 04:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Some 15 years ago when I FIRMLY stated the Face on Mars was merely a rock formation, I was blasted by believers as a close-minded skeptic. NASA was hiding the truth... 
When I pointed out the City on Mars in the Cydonia region was also merely a human mind seeing patterns in rocks, I was villified as a cold logician with no sense of mystery.
When NASA rephotographed the area, the rational POV was obviously true.
This scenario has been repeated with crop circles, The Phoenix Lights, psychic healings, and on and on and on.
Once again my record is 100% and believers is 0.00%. How many thousands of times more must the rational/empirical model be right before you clue in?
Rationalist: Here is the evidence and the method.
Believer: Here is the excuse why we cannot demonstrate what we claim or provide any evidence.
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Believer: Here is the excuse why we cannot demonstrate what we claim or provide any evidence.
Bullshit.
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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Middleman
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Face on Mars = Fail.
Phoenix Lights = Fail.
Some crop circles are not made by people, and some psychic healers are legitimate.
You, nor anyone else, has proven otherwise...
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7754641 - 12/13/07 04:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I meant we as in everyone else but you darling.
The feelings mutual.
I could never have a co-writer that contradicts them self within the space of minutes.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7752616/page/0/fpart/2/vc/1
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7754664 - 12/13/07 04:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well done OC.
I think most experts in the alien/ufo field would agree on that. I do.
Why don't you try explaining the Rendalsham forest incident or the Pascagoula river incident, the Zamora incident or the rest of the huge wealth of alien phenomena that is clearly beyond rational explanation?
It always makes me chuckle that conclusion is in your name...
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7754668 - 12/13/07 04:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Why? Because I practice reiki but I am skeptic?
Where's the contradiction?
I am aware (as I stated earlier) by the fact that self suggestion works, I am also aware that there might be more to it, but I am not trying to impose it on anyone.
When you turn it into a philosophical discussion you'd better have arguments for it. Because of the philosophical inquiry you know? 
I practice reiki but I am not sure if it "works" or if I'm imagining all that. This is why I keep questioning it
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7754687 - 12/13/07 05:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Why? Because I practice reiki but I am skeptic?
Where's the contradiction?
I am aware (as I stated earlier) by the fact that self suggestion works, I am also aware that there might be more to it, but I am not trying to impose it on anyone.
When you turn it into a philosophical discussion you'd better have arguments for it. Because of the philosophical inquiry you know?
I practice reiki but I am not sure if it "works" or if I'm imagining all that. This is why I keep questioning it
don't work because you don't know how to believe.
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7754701 - 12/13/07 05:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
So how come that no healer can show that they actually healed somebody?
Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
When I use it on me, it works.
I'm not denying being skeptical, I consider myself a true skeptic because I'm always open to new evidence. My mind is never completely made up - I can only work with the weight of evidence which I have experienced.
Seems at this point maybe, we should agree? We are essentially proving to each other the same mindset or am I wrong?
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7754742 - 12/13/07 05:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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> I consider myself a true skeptic because I'm always open to new evidence
There is more to being a skeptic than an open mind. One must question everything, even that which one knows to be true.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Seuss]
#7754769 - 12/13/07 05:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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My point was that I know NOTHING to be true.
I can only evaluate on the weight of evidence.
Hell man, I don't know anything beyond that I am writing this shit now. I'm a being or I think I am! Thats as far as true goes!
Everything else is relative. It relies on assumption upon assumption!
Assuming other people are real, then we can base relative truth on their observations.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7755131 - 12/13/07 06:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
I practice reiki but I am not sure if it "works" or if I'm imagining all that. This is why I keep questioning it
That's my approach to magick and spirituality in general. That's why I've been particularly drawn to chaos magick lately.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7755145 - 12/13/07 06:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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 Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7755232 - 12/13/07 06:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
It possible, but there are OTHER, more possible possibilities than that.
Nice....!
Quote:
Ginseng1 said:
Well because the healer doesnt heal you, you heal yourself. It's all in the mind. A healer only poses as a reason to believe.
You make it sound like healers are more like cheerleaders....? 
HHhhhmmmmmm....
I still think I would rather have a cheerleader.... 
>^;;^<
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I'll be your midnight French Fry....
"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7755645 - 12/13/07 08:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said:
I still think I would rather have a cheerleader....
Me too
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7755710 - 12/13/07 08:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
PhanTomCat said:
I still think I would rather have a cheerleader....
Me too
Maybe, but prolly~ not for the same reasons....
>^;;^<
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I'll be your midnight French Fry....
"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7755760 - 12/13/07 08:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I want them to cheer
How do you prefer yours?
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? *DELETED* [Re: Seuss]
#7755785 - 12/13/07 08:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Post deleted by LunarEclipseReason for deletion: p&s
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Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (12/13/07 08:44 PM)
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Mastamike1118
Registered: 03/29/07
Posts: 2,010
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7755787 - 12/13/07 08:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
Healing is very real.
Yeah, so where's the evidence?
Quote:
You don't get 'ripped off' if the results you paid for are achieved.
So how come that no healer can show that they actually healed somebody?
But there are evidence and stories about people who contacted healers and they health condition kept getting worse and eventually died.
Quote:
Are you aware that common headache tablets (aspirin, paracetamol) do not have a better rate of success than placebo?
Source?
And yes, while in some cases (like headaches ), self suggestion works, tel me how does it work for AIDS? Or cancer? Or heart conditions, strokes and so on?
Why isn't there any healer to show that they can actually heap someone?
How easy do I have to make it for you, so you can comprehend?
Quote:
People with your line of logic completely disregard it as 'ripped off' despite the factor of success, now that is idiotic.
No, what is idiotic is to keep going on & on talking about the factor of success and have nothing to back it up.
Im sry but what is really idiotic is us humans putting all our faith into testable bullshit and automatically the ones who beleive this will believe it with the same fervor as a priest and they wont allow the unseen to remain without evidence but thats the point..........................................................................................................................................
wtfFFFF?? CMON GUYS is life really like that????
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#7757217 - 12/14/07 03:59 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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> you never know what is truly true really real or otherwise fits your belief paradigm. As such, one never really knows what is "true".
I think that we are saying the same thing. (My form/wording had just a hint of sarcasm in it. I probably should have quoted the last use of the word "true" to make the statement a bit more clear.)
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Just another spore in the wind.
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mushbaby
woodswalker
Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 2,645
Loc: in my own lil world
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Seuss]
#7762959 - 12/15/07 07:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Wow I'm gone for a few days and y'all really took off on this one!
Visualization has been used numerous times with cancer patients with recorded results. They were taught to visualize the tumor and visualize their body attacking it, destroying it and eliminating it. Books have been written about this.
Way back when, when I went to church regularly we had a pastor who went to Russia shortly after Chernobyl, when he came back his white blood count had gone thru the roof. The Dr.s were looking at a diagnosis of leukemia. Hands were laid on him. He said he felt the power surge thru him. When he went back a week later (this was 15 yrs or so ago so forgive me if I am wrong about the length of time before he went back to get tested) the Dr.s tested him again and his white blood count was normal. This was a huge church. Membership was over 1,000. This was publicly announced and recorded.
There are many examples of people being healed by something other than western medicine. Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't work. I am sure "scientists" scoffed at acupuncture for years before the nervous system was understood.
Orgone, I am very sorry that you lost a friend of yours in a cult. Truly I am, but that doesn't mean everyone is irrational just because your friend was.
So many of you talk about the quacks proclaiming the things they can do, so-called psychics and healers that are just out for your money. I agree with you, there are many, many, many people out there just waiting for someone to fleece.
I would like to compare psychics to car salesmen: there are many crooked people just trying to get a buck, but sometimes, in rare instances there is an honest person just doing what they can. But you shouldn't say all of them are crooks just because most of them are crooks.
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: mushbaby]
#7763070 - 12/15/07 08:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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well said!
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: mushbaby]
#7764261 - 12/16/07 12:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Visualization has been used numerous times with cancer patients with recorded results. They were taught to visualize the tumor and visualize their body attacking it, destroying it and eliminating it.
Do you have a valid source with medical documentation or merely stories?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: mushbaby]
#7764278 - 12/16/07 12:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I am sure "scientists" scoffed at acupuncture for years before the nervous system was understood.
Acupuncture still has yet to be shown efficacious.
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SoY
I am the LizardKing
Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Quote:
Acupuncture still has yet to be shown efficacious.
You must not have ever experienced it then.....
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"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: SoY]
#7764990 - 12/16/07 11:04 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I experienced it though.
And like with reiki, it worked.
What I am left wondering is how much of it was my own imagination.
You see, some people claim that it worked perfectly on them, others not at all.
In fact, acupuncture works in very unscientific/unrepeatable manners.
The "centers" themselves, the ways in which they are precisely located remains a mystery.
Let's take a look at a few illustrations:
Hm.... now that's pretty hard to "guess"... the exact point in two different individuals, think about it...
Since it takes the pin of a very sharp needle to stimulate the exact center intended... it means that the center itself is REALLY small.
How do they find it? It's almost like trying to locate a cell using... eye glasses.
I really wanna make myself understood and feel the need to repeat that
Now let's think about what would happen if it weren't for science, how many charlatans and myths regarding healing (amongst other things) would be out there.
How many ill and desperate people would give their lives and health in the hands of someone who sprinkles some magic dust on them and "repair" their problems.
There's an alarming amount of people who are placing their trust in people who are only up to taking their money. If, amongst those charlatans there are also others who can help, then I guess that time will tell.
But until now, the scientific method has proven to be the safest and most efficient.
I am not trying to deny your experience with acupuncture, what I am still  , is about is the interpretation that you gave to this experience.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 27 days
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Middleman]
#7765180 - 12/16/07 11:48 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Middleman said:
Face on Mars = Fail.
Phoenix Lights = Fail.
Some crop circles are not made by people, and some psychic healers are legitimate.
You, nor anyone else, has proven otherwise...
The burden of proof is on those making the claim.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 27 days
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Redstorm]
#7765191 - 12/16/07 11:51 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Also, why is this thread still open? Isn't there a little too much debate and not enough faith-based back patting? Is it ok if I create a thread asking what's wrong with M&P heads?
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Redstorm]
#7765204 - 12/16/07 11:53 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
The burden of proof is on those making the claim.
Well, depending on how each side presents itself, either could be said to make a claim. If someone says that some crop circles are made from aliens and that some psychic healers are legitimate, then they are making a claim and the burden of proof is on them. If, however, you say that all crop circles and psychic healers are frauds, then the burden of proof is on you. The fact that some of them have been proven to be frauds is not sufficient evidence to dismiss them all as such.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 27 days
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7765220 - 12/16/07 11:58 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Middleman was the one making the claim in this instance and then telling others to do his homework for him (as usual).
However, even if skeptics debunked every instance of crop circles and psychic healers they came across, they could still not say they have proven their point, because there will always be more instances in the future. This has been done countless times in the past.
On the other hand, all true believers have to do is prove in one instance that one of these phenomena are based on reality and not delusion. Even with this tiny burden of proof, they have still failed to provide anything substantive.
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mushbaby
woodswalker
Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 2,645
Loc: in my own lil world
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Seuss]
#7766271 - 12/16/07 04:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I had a dream that came true. I told it to someone before it happened. After it happened they confirmed that they remember me telling them about it. He told many others about it until he passed.
Maybe if I had known in advance that that dream was going to come true I could have published it to have physical proof that I had dreamed it. Unfortunately at the time I thought it was just a dream, so I can't prove it to your satisfaction.
Doesn't mean I didn't have the dream tho.
Maybe some people out there know when they will have their visions. Kudos to them. For me unfortunately this gift is very erratic.
Orgone I will look up the details on the visualizations for cancer patients. It really won't be that hard to find, just understand I need a couple of days, one of my boys is sick and I can't spend much time on here.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: mushbaby]
#7766331 - 12/16/07 04:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Does visualization only work for extreme maladies or for common illness as well?
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jonathanseagull
Cool!
Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 993
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7767575 - 12/16/07 09:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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There are two problems: 1) Labels, 2) Fear. Transcend both, and the conflict falls away.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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More like fact vs. fiction. Fear is not an issue from the empiricist's standpoint.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
More like fact vs. fiction.
WARNING: True believer syndrome. Someone thinks they actually know the objective truth.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Posts: 45,441
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7767821 - 12/16/07 10:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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*sigh*
As I have stated over and over again, my record on alleged paranormal claims WHICH CAN BE TESTED is 100% and has been for decades. That is hard to top, while believer's claims on subjects WHICH CAN BE TESTED is 0%. How much more lopsided can it get?
My certainty is such that I am willing to wager a large chunk of hard-earned cash to back up my stance. EVERY SINGLE MYSTIC HEAD (hundreds to date) has either backed down or reniged on such a wager.
A while back a crop circle was filmed from start to finish as it was made by college students overnight. Three famous cereologists were shown the circle and asked if it were 'genuine' (meaning NOT man-made). All three did radaition tests and checked the plant stems for bent not broken nodes and whatever else they do.
All three declared the circle to be genuine. When shown the film of the circle being made, two of the cereologists STILL declared the circle to be 'genuine'.
That, my friend, is True Believer Syndrome.
I have begged people here for years to show me the error of my empiricist ways JUST ONCE on hundreds of subjects. Hasn't happened yet.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Don't you see that your point of view is the same as a "mystic heads"???
YOU BOTH BELIEVE.
THE BEST STANDPOINT IS TO NEVER FULLY BELIEVE ANYTHING. YOU JUST MAKE A BEST GUESS BASED ON THE WEIGHT OF AVAILABLE EVIDENCE.
You seem to claim that the weight of evidence here proves its likely that all mystical stuff is bollocks. As I said before how can you lump a huge range of phenomena into one category. You have to take every instance individually. You cannot deny new possibility based on the belief that similar old possibility was false - especially when those beliefs can be no-where near certain.
If you do, then this becomes your fundamental flaw. Imagine we assumed Einstein to be 100% correct in all his theories. How would we ever discover a new theory? Einstein found some patterns that fit what we see, that doesn't mean he's found the complete picture. We have to be prepared to alter/discard the theories if we discover new evidence.
Government: We admit that we are in contact with extra-terrestrials
OC: Yeah but i believe the Phoenix lights were flares so these ET's must be fake too
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Posts: 45,441
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7768369 - 12/17/07 06:12 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Let me make this simple: Every single 'paranormal' thing I have investigated in 40 years has turned out to be bollocks. Billions of people making billions of paranormal claims and NOT ONE, not ONE - has yet to pan out under serious scrutiny.
That is all it would take. Just one UNAMBIGUOUS event.
Do the math.
Some of Einsteins' theories held up under SERIOUS SCRUTINY and became accepted and some didn't and were rejected. Simple. No dance-around, no word games, no excuses, no blaming of evil skeptics' mind power and so on.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7768381 - 12/17/07 06:24 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
You seem to claim that the weight of evidence here proves its likely that all mystical stuff is bollocks.
If sky is full of dark clouds and the wind is blowing, most chances are that it will rain soon.
You want get out of the house.
What do you do?
Will you take an umbrella or not?
If you weren't to draw a similarity, you wouldn't take an umbrella. Maybe the clouds would be taken away by the wind and rain wouldn't start. But when we get all those meteorological signs, it usually rains.
We live on predictions. This doesn't come in contradiction with keeping an open mind for all the possibilities.
It's pretty close minded to think that in order to keep an open mind you have to stop making comparisons and finding points of reference.
Facts, live, has proves that we can live more efficiently and in accordance to what's real when we use those predictions.
Until now there's no real evidence that extra terrestrials are visiting our planet and it would be erroneous to think that they do. We're left in doubt but this doesn't stop us to determine what's more likely, from the data that we have.
Quote:
Government: We admit that we are in contact with extra-terrestrials
Government: We want to help everybody live a free and happy life. We want to expand people's consciousness.
Extraterrestrial hunter: I believe you only if you admit that E.T.'s are visiting earth.
To make it easier for you: why would you believe the govt if they were to tell you that?
I'd say what I'm telling you right now: where's the fucking evidence?
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
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Considering the mass of events that can be said only to be UNEXPLAINED, how do you suddenly decide that they are ALL bollocks?
I actually agree with you that a large amount of paranormal claims are misguided or false but I disagree with applying this philosophy to all paranormal claims especially things that have a huge wealth of unexplained phenomena such as ghosts and UFOs.
If every single thing you have investigated has turned out to be bollocks then why don't you try investigating some of the largest unexplained cases that even the worlds top scientists and researchers have still deemed unexplainable??? Somehow you have mightily beaten (with your individual research) the research of groups of accredited people?
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7768730 - 12/17/07 09:59 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Wheres the evidence they are not?
I stand in the middle, but I can point you towards information which to me suggests they are.
You cloud theory, great how simplistic but completely misses the point that its entirely possible that it will not rain despite indications.
As it happens with the alien/ufo indications are that they are real. Your lack of research is your only downfall. You are ill equipped to argue with me when I have researched this phenomena so thoroughly.
Start here:
http://ufos.about.com/od/aliensalienabduction/a/bestabductions.htm
Then continue your research with
NASA evidence
Radar evidence
The disclosure project
Then come back and tell me how there is no HUGE WEIGHT of evidence on the side suggesting ET is visiting Earth.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7768757 - 12/17/07 10:06 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Are you aware that 2 of the governments own top researchers (Hynek and Pope) didn't believe the phenomena was real when they first took the jobs because of the undeniable evidence in certain cases they are now certain something is happening, why should I take you opinion over the experts?
Take the Randelsham forest incident for example, can you explain why the British military would hoax such an incident? Evidence actually suggests they tried to keep it quiet.
Take Belgium Mass sighting - did the 2 F-16 intercepting pilots lie? Did the 2 radar that com firmed maneuverability far beyond human technology lie? Did half the city that made hundreds of films and photographs all hoax them in one huge conspiracy?
LOL, its more insane to say that nothing is happening that to say it is. That is for certain. The only problem here is people making assertions about things they actually know nothing about.
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
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Please, leave Eisntein out of this. He was one of the greatest "believers" of all time.
It was he who said "Imagination is everything, it is the preview to lifes coming attractions!"
He is also quoted as saying something like "There are two types of people in the world, those who believe that everything is a miracle, and those who believe nothing to be a miracle."
I wonder which one stein was?
The claim that not a single claim based on the paranormal has not stood up to scrutiny out of BILLIONS is the biggest lie I have ever heard and is simply disturbing.
The greatest paranormal claims have always stood on their own and were never able to be chopped down by skeptics. Ever. Instead, they leave it alone, and move on to the next debunkable claim.
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7769121 - 12/17/07 11:35 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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OC..
&NR=1
This is the infamous crop circle formation infamous video. If you manage to disprove this video by ULTIMATELY and CERTAINLY proving that it is a 100% hoax, then hats off to you.
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7769253 - 12/17/07 11:58 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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All he will say is that, that does not matter because there are other cases where people have owned up to doing it with a steak, string and wood.
Both sides are flawed if they are going to categorize the entire phenomena. Generalizations are not logical or scientific.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7769307 - 12/17/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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That video is a bad choice though lol.
I'm not gonna lie to try and further my point. I do my research.
That crop circle video is believed to be fake...
Quote:
[On his webpage (http://rainbow.medberry.com/enigma/Artcl11_2.html) Paul Vigay, writing about the OCV, mentions various additional reasons for believing that it was faked. Not the least of which is that the camera was set up pointing directly at the cropfield where the "Snowflake" formation would appear, conveniently filling the field of view of the camera thus focussed. Now, isn't that an amazing coincidence? The formation unfolds on the video in just a few seconds. Interestingly the straight pathways are seen to form last, despite the fact that it could be clearly seen on the ground at the time that these pathways were underneath the lay of the crop in the satellite circles and must have been laid down earlier. How does any advocate of the film being genuine explain this ?/quote]
http://www.fsr.org.uk/fsrwng19.htm
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7769354 - 12/17/07 12:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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There is not *evidence* that ultimately proves that video to be a hoax. That's my point. So it may be plausible, at the same time that it may not be. Either way, both sides must be considered.
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: mushbaby]
#7771025 - 12/17/07 07:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Visualization has been used numerous times with cancer patients with recorded results.
I'm curious. Are there any visualizations for amputees that will restore the missing limb?
I mean, if visualization can cure cancer and such, it should also cure amputations, no?
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7771040 - 12/17/07 07:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Or we could start with something simpler like baldness, though I have been informed by a person with a direct link to the mind of God that that would be too small of a miracle.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7771478 - 12/17/07 08:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
I mean, if visualization can cure cancer and such, it should also cure amputations, no?
What makes you say that? Can antibiotics cure an amputation?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7772688 - 12/18/07 02:09 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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No, but since this healing can cure cancer (as in making all the cancerous cell to disappear - or change their structure into normal ones), you'd think that it can also make other cells grow.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7772807 - 12/18/07 04:20 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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> I'm curious. Are there any visualizations for amputees that will restore the missing limb?
No, but visualization of the amputated limb being whole rather than amputated will help reduce phantom pain. Results were published in a medical journal last month and showed a remarkable improvement in the visualization group compared to the control group.
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/357/21/2206
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Just another spore in the wind.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Seuss]
#7772954 - 12/18/07 07:16 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes, but this is a mental process.
It's like... let's say, when you see someone cutting their finger and it makes your finger hurt too.
This can't be called magic or psychic healing.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
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All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7772991 - 12/18/07 07:52 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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> This can't be called magic or psychic healing.
Oh, I agree completely. I'm just saying that the mind is a powerful tool when it comes to healing, or improving, the body. No magic or mysticism about it, at least in my mind, but claims that visualization is worthless or ineffective are not true. A good test, which has been done, and failed every time, would be to see if my visualization can help you heal.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7773106 - 12/18/07 09:05 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Theres no proof that its mental either though.
I think its likely it is mental though.
Western science has largely disregarded these things as pseudoscience whilst ignoring the fact they actually work.
This also carries my point about this over categorizing that is going on here. Take everything individually, research thoroughly and unbiasedly and you won't have science overlooking reality.
Maybe the mystical nature of these things are what make them work better - they facilitate the power of belief.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7773185 - 12/18/07 09:40 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
No, but since this healing can cure cancer (as in making all the cancerous cell to disappear - or change their structure into normal ones), you'd think that it can also make other cells grow.
So because it kill certain cells, it should also make other cells grow back? Has a machine gun ever brought someone back to life?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7773225 - 12/18/07 09:57 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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The key is in certain
Certain as in cancerous cells, therefore that energy is implied to be informed. To have some sort of intelligence that discerns cancerous cells from healthy cells.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Silversoul
Rhizome
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7773269 - 12/18/07 10:08 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes. So what does that have to do with amputees?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7773278 - 12/18/07 10:15 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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One would think that if there's an energy able to destroy cancer cells, it would also have the power to regenerate missing limbs
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7773476 - 12/18/07 11:27 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
One would think that if there's an energy able to destroy cancer cells, it would also have the power to regenerate missing limbs
That's like saying that since gravity is able to pull you to the ground, then it should be able to make you leap over tall buildings. This is a problem I see with a lot of debunkers and cynics. They think that in order for psi phenomenon to be real, it has to be infallible. It's like saying that if eyesight is real, then you should be able to see a thumbtack from 100 miles away. Any ability, particularly one we're not used to using, is naturally going to have its limits.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7773787 - 12/18/07 01:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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> They think that in order for psi phenomenon to be real, it has to be infallible.
Not infallible (at least for me), but repeatable. I need it to be repeatable so that I can test it under controlled conditions in order to "prove" (in the scientific sense) that it is real.
A good example... how many people have picked up the phone to call somebody only to have that person on the other end of the phone without having heard the phone ring? In the days of land lines, this was fairly common. In a classroom of 30, almost everybody would claim to have experienced this. However, if one works out the statistics, you are more likely to be struck by lightening. This sounds like great proof of some kind of psychic something of another going on. Unfortunately, it is not something that can be controlled in a repeatable manner for science to test. We can look at the statistics, but nothing more. Perhaps our calculation of the chances of this happening were incorrect. Perhaps something else. Perhaps it is some kind of psychic something, but because it cannot be repeated in a controlled manner, we simply don't know.
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Seuss]
#7773905 - 12/18/07 01:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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examples of telepathy:
- People thinking of the same song, one person starts humming only to find out that their friend was thinking of the same song at the exact same time.
- Distant friends contacting eachother on the same day they they visualized eachother.
- Parallel dreams.
All of these things happen, all the time.
People often think of coincidences as random chance. I think coinsidence could one day be explained through a mathematical equation. Physical properties that dwell within quanta ofcourse. In time.. it can all be explained. Just how in time the microworld was revealed in the past.
We would have never been able to percieve and visualized that we have microscopic elves conducting unimaginably complex metabolic processes in the body and the like.
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
Edited by Ginseng1 (12/18/07 01:50 PM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Seuss]
#7773906 - 12/18/07 01:50 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
> They think that in order for psi phenomenon to be real, it has to be infallible.
Not infallible (at least for me), but repeatable. I need it to be repeatable so that I can test it under controlled conditions in order to "prove" (in the scientific sense) that it is real.
And that is a perfectly sensible expectation. What I'm referring to is people who are intolerant of subtlety in paranormal phenomenon. If you claim to have psychic powers, then you have to be able to win the lottery with those powers. If someone claims some miraculous healing power, they must be able to regenerate limbs. My point is that if we're dealing with something that isn't fully understood, then why put expectations on it beyond what is being claimed?
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
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Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7773977 - 12/18/07 02:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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If you claim to have psychic powers, then you have to be able to win the lottery with those powers.
A better interpretation of the skeptic view is that if you claim psychic powers, you should be able to demonstrate them to a trained observer.
My point is that if we're dealing with something that isn't fully understood, then why put expectations on it beyond what is being claimed?
Because psychic healing claims are not subtle and don't seem to have any limits. There is nothing subtle about: "I can cure terminal cancer with my magic".
Cancer, colds, viruses, brain damage, blindness, ingrown hairs, even behavioral and substance abuse problems and much more have all been claimed to have been cured by psychic healing or prayer after western medicine failed. Given such grandiose claims, it should be a simple matter to restore an amputation or verifiably cure someone with terminal cancer and a month to live, no?
That never happens other than in second and third hand stories, and if humans are good at anything it's embellishing and exaggerating stories.
What's more, if psychics and prayer are healing people that western medicine cannot, it would have been reported in a peer reviewed medical journal by now. This hasn't been reported and not for lack of trying. Numerous controlled studies have been done looking for these phenomenon without success.
So, again, it's not about winning the lottery to demonstrate paranormal claims. It's about demonstrating those claims AT ALL. Forget the lottery. Just demonstrate for a trained observer what you say you can do and the skeptics will shut up once and for all.
Why hasn't that ever happen?
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7774009 - 12/18/07 02:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Regrowing a limb involves regrowing bones, which no drug known to man can do. Curing cancer actually seems a small feat compared to that. Cannabis has been shown to kill cancerous cells.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7774044 - 12/18/07 02:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Regrowing a limb involves regrowing bones, which no drug known to man can do.
No drug known to man can cure terminal cancer either but psychics claim they can.
But be that as it may, if fixing amputations is too hard, then how about something simple, like curing a bald head or nearsightedness? Surely those are easier to do than curing terminal cancer.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7774073 - 12/18/07 02:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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That may or may not be possible. All I'm saying is that if they say they can cure cancer, test their ability to cure cancer, instead of using strawman arguments. Do we insist that aspirin work as a form of birth control just because it can prevent heart attacks?
Note that I'm not saying that psi phenomena is real(though my own experience tells me there's something to it, even if I can't prove it). I'm just saying trying to keep the debate honest instead of getting into logical fallacies.
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Edited by Silversoul (12/18/07 02:46 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban
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 Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7774107 - 12/18/07 02:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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All I'm saying is that if they say they can cure cancer, test their ability to cure cancer
That's been done. No difference was found in the cure rates of those treated by psychics (or prayer).
The larger point is that for those psychics who DO claim to cure OTHER things, they can't seem to cure those either when trained observers are watching.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7774216 - 12/18/07 03:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7776093 - 12/19/07 12:06 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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You can post lots of studies but in the end, the biggest psi experiment in the world, Las Vegas, demonstrates every day of the year that things happen EXACTLY as predicted by the rules of probability no matter how many psychics claim otherwise.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7776104 - 12/19/07 12:10 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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So we're back to the gambling argument, despite the fact that psi phenomena, if real, is not understood well enough to know its parameters.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7776121 - 12/19/07 12:20 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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What's wrong with the gambling argument? Why is it a bad argument to ask why someone who says they can do things that will win in Vegas never do?
The overall statistical slew that would happen to the casino's profits WOULD be detected, you know, even though the individual psychics themselves get away with it.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7776132 - 12/19/07 12:22 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm not talking about any psychic's specific claims so much as the fact that certain psi phenomena have been observed experimentally, however subtle it may be.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7776222 - 12/19/07 01:01 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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the fact that certain psi phenomena have been observed experimentally
I don't have the energy to address your five links right now, so I'll just do the one published in Nature because of your five links, I think that's the only real science journal. And to be fair to Nature, the cheating was not discovered until after it published these bogus results:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v245/n5419/abs/245052a0.html
This is bad science and fraud by the experimenter who was seen altering the scorecards after the fact. And of course, these results have never been reproduced.
Here's an excerpt of what The Skeptic's Dictionary has to say about it including the testimony of several people involved in the experiment saying that Soal outright changed the data when it didn't fit his pre-conclusions:
In one sitting, Shackleton's success at guessing one card ahead was so great that Soal calculated the odds against chance to be greater than 10^35 to 1. In another, the odds against chance were calculated to be 10^11 to 1. There were several other sessions in which Shackleton performed at phenomenal levels when measured against chance expectation.
Skeptics were immediately distrustful of the results. Some, like C.E.M. Hansel and George Price (1955), accused Soal of fraud even though they had no direct evidence to support the accusation.
For some time the Soal-Goldney experiment was hailed by many as an example "of the strength of evidence for the reality of ESP" (Thouless). Today, it is generally recognized that Soal altered and faked the data, probably unbeknownst to Mrs. Goldney (Alcock 1981: 141). His fraud did significant damage to parapsychology (Alcock 1981: 140-141)
Then the article goes on to document exactly how the experiment was cheated:
The numbers for each of the 50 trials in a session were not chosen randomly for each trial, however. They were given to the experimenter by Soal on prepared scoring sheets that Soal "kept under lock and key until brought to the sitting in a suitcase that was never out of his sight" (Hansel 1989: 102). Soal claimed the sheets contained series of numbers chosen randomly, but no protocol was established to observe how Soal actually produced the series of numbered score sheets. This allowed Soal to introduce an excessive number of ones that could later be changed to fours or fives. In fact, one of Soal's agents, Mrs. Albert, testified that she had seen Soal changing a 1 to a 4 or a 5 several times (Medhurst 1971; Hansel 1989: 111; Alcock 1981: 140; Scott and Haskell 1973).
In 1960 Soal and Goldney reported that one "agent" in some of the sittings, "Mrs. G. A.", had told Goldney that she had seen Soal "altering the figures" during the sittings, changing "1's" into "4's" and "5's".
Another nail was driven in by Scott and Haskell in 1974. Even though they could not examine the original score sheets-Soal claimed they'd been lost in 1945—handmade copies of the originals were available. Scott and Haskell examined the score sheets for the sessions when Mrs. Albert served as agent and Soal as the experimenter. They predicted that if the lists were prepared with an excess of 1s that could later be changed to 4s or 5s, they should find, among other things,
(a) an excess of 4s and 5s among the targets
(b) a deficiency in the number of cases with a guess of 4 or 5 against a target of 1
(c) an excess of hits on 4s and 5s together with an above chance score on 1s (since a 1 would only be changed to a 4 or 5 if it was a miss).
All the predicted effects of cheating were found
The fraud didn't involve a whole lot of work on Soal's part. For example, in session 16 with Mrs. Albert, "it was only necessary to change a 1 into a 4 or 5 about three times in each column [of seven score sheets] to bring about the observed scores" (Hansel 1989: 113).
The final nail was driven in by Betty Marwick in 1978. She confirmed that Soal had not used the method of random selection of numbers as he had claimed.
First, she found two sequences of nineteen supposedly-random digits from two different sittings that matched exactly. A further case was then found, involving the same two sittings where a run of twenty-four supposedly-random digits was involved. In other cases, two series matched when one of them was taken in reverse order. Eventually, following a computer search, it was found that there were frequent cases of matchings of this nature, many of which were not exact, but in which one of the series had extra interpolated digits. These interpolated digits almost invariably secured hits. (Hansel 1989: 114)
Marwick showed that there had been manipulation of the score sheets and that therefore "all the experiments reported by Soal had thereby been discredited." His meticulous experimental design was an illusion (Hansel 1989: 115).
You can find more details of this bad science and fraud here: http://www.skepdic.com/soalgoldney.html
Dishonesty is a consistent theme in psi research.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7776322 - 12/19/07 01:52 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah, but I can move a pinwheel with my mind.
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mushbaby
woodswalker
Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 2,645
Loc: in my own lil world
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Visualization has been used numerous times with cancer patients with recorded results. They were taught to visualize the tumor and visualize their body attacking it, destroying it and eliminating it.
Do you have a valid source with medical documentation or merely stories?
http://www.cancerimagery.com/cancer_imagery_research.html
Most cancer centers carry these type of programs. It is the most well-studied complementary therapy.
THe director and founder of the Academy for Guided Imagery is David Bressler a Ph.d neuroscientist.
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mushbaby
woodswalker
Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 2,645
Loc: in my own lil world
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7776807 - 12/19/07 08:59 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Visualization has been used numerous times with cancer patients with recorded results.
I'm curious. Are there any visualizations for amputees that will restore the missing limb?
I mean, if visualization can cure cancer and such, it should also cure amputations, no?
THere's a slight difference between visualizing one cell destroying another (foreign ) cell in your body and the body actually rebuilding missing parts don't you think?
I didn't claim it cured cancer but in conjunction with science (imagine that! science and the "unknown" working hand in hand) they have shown better results than science alone.
But they are also researching visualization with pain management so that could apply to amputees. I had a friend that was missing a leg and I know that phantom pain can be extremely painful.
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mushbaby
woodswalker
Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 2,645
Loc: in my own lil world
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: mushbaby]
#7776846 - 12/19/07 09:13 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I concur with SIlversoul about one thing and would like to reiterate it using my own words: How can science conduct a study on something when they refuse to accept the nature of what they are studying?
The nature being that these are unusual phenomenon. If these things happened every day whenever someone tried doing it we wouldn't be having this conversation. 
Edited by mushbaby (12/19/07 09:38 AM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: mushbaby]
#7776974 - 12/19/07 09:56 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
How can science conduct a study on something when they refuse to accept the nature of what they are studying?
Sorry hon, but this statement is so flawed and well-worn as to be laughable. Essentially what you are saying is that skeptics cannot conduct such a study because of bias and believers are too fucking incompetent to master the scientific method.
I get the same piss-poor argument from UFO nuts. Why can't science as if a UFO aficiando cannot get an education in the field he wishes to study.
Can't have it both ways, but the fluffernauts always try. 
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: mushbaby]
#7777011 - 12/19/07 10:09 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Visualization and imagery may reduce anxiety and stress, but has not shown any affect on survival rate.
Likewise prayer studes are equally ineffectual. The laws of physics remain intact, no matter how potent the wishing.
article
I've always wondered, as I'm sure many of my readers have, whether human beings have it in them to delay their own death, even briefly. Very early in the history of this blog, a mere 11 days after I started it, I discussed a study that strongly suggested that we cannot. In brief, it looked at the common belief that people dying from cancer can somehow, through sheer force of will, hold death at bay for brief periods of time, usually until some milestone that they wanted to see one more time is reached, be it a birthday, anniversary, holiday, or whatever. After they reach that milestone, the belief goes, they then die. Alas for this popular myth, investigators who examined 300,000 cancer deaths over 12 years and were completely unable to find any evidence of spikes in death rates around the times of birthdays, Christmas, or Thanksgiving. Sadly, it appears that, as always, death wins, and there's nothing we can do about it.
A corollary of this popular belief is that people with a positive attitude do better when they have cancer, even to the point of living longer than people who lack a positive attitude. Among residents, there's actually what's probably a myth that says the opposite: Namely, that the nastiest, most cantankerous people tend to do the best, presumably because they're fighters and just too ornery to die, and that "nice" people tend to do worst and die like dogs. No doubt this latter belief is a case of confirmation bias. Be that as it may, for quite a while the prevailing dogma has been that support groups and/or psychotherapy can prolong survival in cancer patients, although this dogma has little bsis in firm evidence to support it. More than likely, it, too, is a case of confirmation bias.
Earlier this week, this question came to the fore again, because a study was published that strongly questions the dogma that a positive mental attitude can prolong survival. The abstract follows:
Emotional well-being does not predict survival in head and neck cancer patients
A radiation therapy oncology group study
James C. Coyne, PhD 1 *, Thomas F. Pajak, PhD 2, Jonathan Harris, MS 2, Andre Konski, MD 3, Benjamin Movsas, MD 3, Kian Ang, MD 4, Deborah Watkins Bruner, PhD 5
1Department of Psychiatry, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
2Radiation Oncology Group, Statistics Department, American College of Radiology, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
3Department of Radiation Oncology, Fox Chase Cancer Center, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
4Department of Radiation Oncology, The University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center, Houston, Texas
5School of Nursing, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
email: James C. Coyne (jcoyne@mail.med.upenn.edu)
*Correspondence to James C. Coyne, Department of Psychiatry, University of Pennsylvania Health System, 3535 Market Street, Room 676, Philadelphia, PA 19104
ABSTRACT
BACKGROUND.
The objective of the current study was to examine whether emotional well-being predicted survival in a large sample of patients with head and neck cancer who were participating in multicenter clinical trials.
METHODS.
Participants were enrolled in 2 Radiation Oncology Group (RTOG) clinical trials (RTOG 9003 and RTOG 9111) and completed a baseline measure of quality of life (the Functional Assessment of Cancer Therapy-General [FACT-G]), which included an Emotional Well-Being subscale. The outcome measure was overall survival. Main statistical analyses included overall survival rates, which were estimated by using the Kaplan-Meier method with univariate comparisons analyzed using the log-rank test. A multivariate Cox proportional hazards model was used to determine whether emotional well-being had prognostic impact on survival after accounting for tumor-related and sociodemographic variables. Additional exploratory analyses examined possible subgroup effects.
RESULTS.
No statistically significant univariate or multivariate effects were observed for emotional well-being, and there were no effects limited to subgroups. These results stand in sharp contrast to the prognostic value of a variety of demographic and clinical variables.
CONCLUSIONS.
The current results add to the weight of the evidence that emotional functioning is not an independent predictor of survival in cancer patients. The study had the advantage of a large number of deaths to be explained in a sample with the uniformity of treatment and quality of care that is required in clinical trials.
(News report summarizing the trial here.)
This study, the largest yet to study this question, combined two randomized, phase III radiation therapy studies, with a total of 1,093 patients with head and neck cancer from two different radiation therapy studies, of which 646 patients died during the course of the studies. One of the studies was a comparison of different radiation dose fractionation schedules, and the other was designed to study concurrent radiation and chemotherapy. As a part of these studies, quality-of-life estimates were examined, and patients were assessed upon entry to the protocol with five questions on the FACT-G quality of life questionnaire evaluating whether patients felt sad, were losing hope, feeling nervous, worrying about dying, worrying that their condition would worsen, and whether they were proud of how they were dealing with their condition. In neither univariate (the more sensitive but less specific way of looking for correlations) or multivariate (the more statistically appropriate method), did the investigators find any correlation between feelings of well-being and survival. This held true in the face of multiple calculations to take into account stage of disease, demographics, smoking, and performance status. Even doing subgroup analyses, often the last resort when looking for some result or correlation in a trial that is yielding none, failed to find subgroups for whom well being correlated with survival. Because the number of deaths observed was larger than the combined sample sizes of most previous studies, this represents the most resoundingly negative study to date looking at this question.
Head and neck cancers are particularly vicious cancers. This is not so much because they kill as rapidly as some of the more deadly cancers out there, such as pancreatic or esophageal cancer, but more because of the treatment needed to eliminate them. Often the surgery necessary is disfiguring, depending upon the location. In the case of laryngeal cancer, for example, it is sometimes necessary to take the vocal cords, leading to the loss of the ability to speak normally, necessitating learning esophageal speech or the use of an electromechanical device that produces a robotic-sounding voice. Sometimes it's necessary literally to remove a big chunk of the face, even the mandible, to cure some cancers, leaving a deformity not easily reconstructed even by the best plastic surgeon. Moreover, there's the chemotherapy, and the radiation therapy has a distressing tendency to fry the salivary glands, leading to a condition of xerostomia, or inadequate saliva production. It may not sound like much, but it can have a horrible impact on a patient's quality of life. As The Cheerful Oncologist puts it, it would be the rare head and neck cancer patient indeed who would not be depressed.
The population chosen naturally has led critics of the study to argue that, while perhaps a positive attititude doesn't prolong survival in head and neck cancer, perhaps it does in other cancers for which the treatment is not so harsh. In the case of breast cancer, however, there are multiple retrospective studies that also failed to find a correlation between health-related quality of life scores and survival (1, 2, 3) and one randomized trial testing whether supportive group therapy had any impact on survival that failed to find any benefit in terms of survival.
Although there are still mixed results among studies looking at this question, I think that the pendulum is starting to swing towards where the main driver of survival in cancer is biology:
University of Pennsylvania researchers say that among head and neck cancer patients, emotional health -- good or bad -- is not an independent factor affecting prognosis.
"We anticipated finding that emotional well-being would predict the outcome of cancer. We exhaustively looked for it, and we concluded there is no effect for emotional well-being on cancer outcome," said study author and University of Pennsylvania psychologist James Coyne. "I think [cancer survival] is basically biological. Cancer patients shouldn't blame themselves -- too often we think if cancer were beatable, you should beat it. You can't control your cancer. For some, this news may lead to some level of acceptance."
[...]
Another expert said he wasn't surprised by the Pennsylvania findings.
"People are more likely to find this news a relief than a disappointment," said Dr. Michael Fisch, an associate professor of gastrointestinal medical oncology at the University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center, in Houston.
Survival depends on the location of the cancer, the risk factors for the cancer, and how advanced the cancer is when it's diagnosed, said Fisch.
In fact, Dr. Fisch has a term for trying to persuade a patient who doesn't speak optimistically about his cancer to be more more positive as the "tyranny of guilt systems," where others seem to imply that the patient has some sort of "mind over matter" control over their cancer. I tend to agree. One pernicious consequence of this emphasis on "bucking up" and being cheerful in the face of adversity is that patients can tend to blame themselves if they are not doing well or if their tumor is growing in spite of therapy. It could indeed bring more piece of mind if patients could simply accept that their state of mind will not determine how fast their cancer grows.
For course, none of these new results should be construed to say that depression in cancer patients doesn't have a potentially devastating effect on the quality of their remaining life, nor should any of these results be taken as meaning that it's pointless to try to treat depression and foster a more optimistic, positive attitude. There is little doubt that such positive attitudes can do wonders for improving quality of life, and it's very important to make cancer patients' lives, particularly when there is not much life left, as filled with joy as their disease will permit. What these results do say is that we should not oversell what a positive attitude can do. It may make cancer patients happier, something that is in and of itself of great value, but it won't prolong their lives.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Quote:
How can science conduct a study on something when they refuse to accept the nature of what they are studying?
Science only speculates theories on things that are deemed scientifically respectable.
If you made up a good unifying theory then it would be published for review.
Where as if you made up a theory on ghosts or aliens then it would probably not be touched on because most scientists already know this is academic suicide.
Scientists that are interested usually start work in the paranormal field after their academic life is over.
Many people don't realize that all of science is just speculation. There is no eternal truth, just theory aka in philosophical terms Quote:
I think therefore I am.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
UFO nuts
What you'd rather people lied so that everything fits into your idealistic viewpoint?
I say idealistic because it quite clear that you hate not being able to understand something. As a result you force an understanding I.E They are all crazy, the are all hoaxers
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symbiotic
insighted
Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 105
Loc: ok,nm,co,ca,or
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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 Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7781360 - 12/20/07 12:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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My biology professor who is very spiritual laughs at the scientist that don't believe in spirit. He lived with native americans for seven years and did many fasting/hallucinogenic rituals. An interesting fasting story from him; He was up in the mountains alone of course and it was the second or third day so the pain had subsided and he started to wander around the mountain top, he came upon a petroglyph of a tall ladder and after a space there was the sun at the top of the ladder but not touching it and an arm was reaching out of the sun down to the ladder. I had an immediate realization of what this meant to me at least, but would like to know what you guys think it does?
challenge Science and ask ‘at what point in the evolution of the ‘material’ world’ is CONSCIOUSNESS first discernible? I repeat and mean what I say: Ask the scientist at what point in the evolution of the world is ‘consciousness’ first discernible. In the living cell? If in the living cell, ask whether if it was discernible in the living molecules which combined to make a cell and encase itself in such an intelligently designed membrane, permitting the intake of selected food and excretion of toxic waste? How does it recognise toxic waste? And if it should be conceded that consciousness might be present in living molecules, should you not ask whether the chemical properties which became a living molecule might not themselves have possessed ‘consciousness’ which eventually impelled and propelled them into the life-giving combination to make a molecule? And having gone back thus far into the origins of existence, - the chemical properties - you must still question why ‘consciousness’ should only become a viable presence within the chemicals - why not within the elements in which individuality first took shape, and if in the elements why should it be denied that ‘consciousness’ propels the electrical particles to form the elements? Is it rational to deny such a possibility? And having reached such a possibility, should you not go further and ask from whence comes electromagnetism? What is the ‘reality’ of electricity more than streaks of fierce light now described by science as photons and electrons? And what is the ‘reality’ of magnetism more than two-fold energies of ‘bonding and rejection’ - energy impulses which have brought stability and order into chaos? Ask science: “From whence comes electromagnetism which is responsible for the most basic steps in the creation of an ordered and orderly universe of an umimaginable complexity and diversity?”
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The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7781520 - 12/20/07 12:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Science only speculates theories on things that are deemed scientifically respectable.
Science is a method and thus has no opinion.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7781567 - 12/20/07 12:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Science only speculates theories on things that are deemed scientifically respectable.
Science deals with consistent and repeatable direct observations. Respectable has nothing to do with it.
I think you're missing OC's point.
If you have beef with the way science handles UFOs, then go to university and study science for yourself, learn the Scientific Method, become a scientist, then apply that to UFO research and make your own science.
Seems to me that's a better way to express support for the ET version of UFOs than to complain about how scientists won't study them seriously.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: symbiotic]
#7781588 - 12/20/07 01:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Is it rational to deny such a possibility?
Yes it's rational to deny that possibility because there is ZERO evidence for it.
Is it irrational to deny the existence of the Tooth Fairy because there is an infinitesimal possibility that somehow, somewhere, she actually does exist?
Of course not. That there is a micro-possibility that she exists is not reason enough to architect your life around her existence.
When/if some sliver of evidence of her existence is found, THEN it becomes reasonable to consider her existence more than fairy tale.
Same for all things mystical because they can only be seen in your head. Nobody outside your head can see it. That doesn't mean necessarily that it doesn't exist, but it does mean that anyone outside your head who can't see it is being perfectly reasonable denying its existence.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7781607 - 12/20/07 01:08 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
If you have beef with the way science handles UFOs, then go to university and study science for yourself, learn the Scientific Method, become a scientist, then apply that to UFO research and make your own science.
But that would make sense and would preclude whining about the lack of research...
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Theres no lack of research.
There is a lack of scientists will to risk their job credentials to say that there is evidence for aliens and ghosts.
Just because you can't capture it in a jar and measure it, does not say that their is no evidence. It doesn't make anything less real it just means scientists have been unable to measure it.
Really, Diploid, OC have you got the credentials to make these assertions that these things are not real? You base your opinions on mass speculation, your opinions are not backed by science because science cannot prove that these things do not exist.
Yet you constantly use science as a reason for your believe.
Can you not understand that some things are beyond sciences grasp?
How can you ignore the vast wealth of human experience?
How do you explain physical evidence involved in many of the incidents?
Your unfounded certainty is what disturbs me.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7781826 - 12/20/07 02:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
A. There is a lack of scientists will to risk their job credentials to say that there is evidence for aliens and ghosts.
B. Can you not understand that some things are beyond sciences grasp?
Which is true: A or B?
Third time for those hard of reading, why can't believers become scientists and research what they choose?
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Both.
Theres evidence but science has not accepted it.
Theres radar evidence of craft flying well beyond human crafts capabilities.
Theres lie detector testimonial of people saying they were abducted.
Theres countless film that has been shown to not be hoax.
Theres enough evidence for anyone logical that does an unbiased study of the whole phenomena hence, as I said before the governments own people started of skeptical but then became believers (Hynek and Pope).
But thats not enough evidence for scientists, they would want to capture the craft and see the occupants.
Quote:
why can't believers become scientists and research what they choose
And you honestly think a subject that has got so much stigma attatched would get funding?
Besides, what are they gonna do? 'Project to capture alien craft' yep I can see that would definately get funding, lol.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7782772 - 12/20/07 06:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
why can't believers become scientists ?
Fourth time. I guess this is too difficult a question for you.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7783061 - 12/20/07 07:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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There is a lack of scientists will to risk their job credentials to say that there is evidence for aliens and ghosts.
Balony!
Scientists constantly go against the grain. That's how scientific progress is made and how the pool of scientific knowledge constantly grows and refines itself.
The reason almost no scientists take the ET version of UFOs seriously is because science deals with OBSERVABLES and so far, the only observables of UFOs are a slew of hoaxes, a bunch of fuzzy pics that could be anything and stories of abduction by bored house wives that are full of holes and inconsistencies.
No hard physical evidence that could not possibly come from Earth has ever been produced. This even after A HUNDRED YEARS! of people claiming abductions and first-hand contact.
have you got the credentials to make these assertions that these things are not real?
I don't need credentials to state the since there is no hard physical evidence of any kind for the Tooth Fairy, she does not exist. Same for ET given the current lack of hard physical evidence.
What other phenomenon has withstood a hundred plus years of investigation with not a single piece of hard physical evidence? I don't think there is any.
Can you not understand that some things are beyond sciences grasp?
Can you not understand that all science wants is a piece of hard physical evidence? That's not beyond science's grasp.
The first instant someone presents a piece of metal or skin or hair or saliva or fiber or hangnail or whatever the fuck ET and his ship is made of will instantly open an entire new branch of scientific inquire. All it takes a a few molecules. It's been a hundred years and thousands of reported abductions but still nothing more than fuzzy pics and word of mouth.
Scientists don't say "it doesn't exist". What they do say is "show me".
So why can't anyone show me any physical evidence? It's been A HUNDRED YEARS already! How much more time do UFO people need to come up with the goods? In any other endeavor the UFO people would have been fired for lack of progress on the job by now.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7783893 - 12/20/07 11:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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So what do scientists want?
a biological sample of alien skin?
Who's to say that such things dont exist.. you would have to understand that evidence of the sort would not go without intense monitoring.
There are hidden agendas all over the fukin place and anything to do with truths regarding Aliens has very, very deep implications.
Let's just wait and find out.
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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If you'd of read the post then you would of seen that I did answer it.
Quite ironic really, that you cannot see what is in front of you.
You can't talk either, you completely ignored all my questions earlier on in the post as you always do.
I asked you to explain some high profile incidents.
Quote:
Why don't you try explaining the Rendalsham forest incident or the Pascagoula river incident, the Zamora incident or the rest of the huge wealth of alien phenomena that is clearly beyond rational explanation?
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7783981 - 12/20/07 11:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
she does not exist.
Scientists don't say "it doesn't exist". What they do say is "show me".
What do I conclude from this?
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7784019 - 12/20/07 11:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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So what do scientists want?
A physical piece of ANYTHING AT ALL that could not possibly come from Earth.
It's a simple requirement. Fuzzy pics and boring abduction stories don't qualify.
It's been 100 years of UFO research. So far, not one single molecule of an alien substance has shown up at CNN or some newspaper. And these reporters dig up all sorts of secret and embarrassing shit on the government all the time.
By the way, I've been here before and know the standard response from the UFO crowd at this point in the debate, so lemme kill it right now.
you would have to understand that evidence of the sort would not go without intense monitoring. There are hidden agendas
Yep, that's standard response to the total lack of physical evidence.
To this, I reply that unless UFOs only crash on US land, there must be many other countries with crashed alien ships that would love nothing better than to expose the US government's lies concerning crashed alien ships.
Funny how no other government on Earth can produce any physical evidence either.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7784125 - 12/21/07 12:15 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
So what do scientists want?
a biological sample of alien skin?
Fifth time. I know the density level is high, but are there no believer scientists anywhere in the world? Are they unable to pass college level courses?
UFO believers devoted to watching X-Files, reading sci-fi and perusing free energy websites: unlimited.
UFO believers so convinced of the reality of visitation so as to get a master's or PhD in the scientific field that they love in order to do unbiased research: almost nil.
Lazy or incapable? You tell me.
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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (12/21/07 07:54 AM)
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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OC you seem to think you can safely say that UFO's are all hoaxes, yet you've done no research yourself, so what makes you say this about UFO research?
If you want to see PhD UFO researchers then look at the government researchers that CONVERTED to believers when they studied the evidence.
Nick Pope - Nick Pope used to run the British Government's UFO project at the Ministry of Defence
http://www.nickpope.net/biography.htm
Josef Allen Hynek (May 1, 1910 - April 27, 1986) was a United States astronomer, professor, and ufologist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Allen_Hynek
UFO's being real or not is not the case.
Its not a case of if they are real or not - the people that study them know they are real - thats well established so theres no point questioning that.
The only question is what causes them. In cases where there is certainly a craft of some kind that has been backed up by physical evidence - such as landing traces or radar activity, it becomes even more difficult to discern what they are.
Take the Belgium mass sighting, it was picked up on 2 separate radar and the craft was chased by 2 F-16's. The F-16s got repeated locks onto the craft. The craft performed maneuvers far beyond our craft. Much of the time they were flying in space.
Now thats as good as proof gets. The only question is where did that craft come from? The Belgium government asked the US and the UK if they were flying anything over Belgium airspace - they claim they are not. You could say it was experimental, but why would it be being tested in plain sight over Belgium?
I suppose your gonna ignore all this again though and come out with some unfounded assertion?
I answered your questions so be honorable and account for this post?
How do you disregard what I present here?
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7784601 - 12/21/07 05:55 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Yep, that's standard response to the total lack of physical evidence.
YEP, you keep believing your own lies. Ignore these links because they may shatter your belief and yep its hard to accept when your wrong...
Physical evidence..
http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/belgium.htm Radar evidence Belgium sighting
http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/physicalevidence.htm
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7784626 - 12/21/07 06:16 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Again... many mistakes... *sigh*
Quote:
The maximum speed is limited by the thrust vs. drag ratio, and by the conversion of drag into heat, which can cause structural changes or damage[4]
Oh, a reference... I wonder what that could be about...
Quote:
4. For instance, the SR-71 actually lengthens in response to the intense heat produced by its speed.
Nope, not a reference.
The statement "and by the conversion of drag into heat" is a common mistake made my layman that don't understand aerodynamics. Air friction produces very little heat. Air pressure, on the other hand...
How can I believe anything in the post when such a glaring mistake immediately illustrates the lack of basic understanding by the author? Even worse, this was just one of many such mistakes.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7784800 - 12/21/07 08:25 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Radar evidence
And yet many UFO aficianados say that UFOs don't register on radar. (Shroomism for one has stated that).
As per usual, you guys want it both ways and are never consistent.
I would wager that I am probably the only certified radar tech here and could go on and on about false readings from temperature inversions to birds to improperly tuned receivers. Blips frequently appear and diasppear when there is no solid object there. Newer radars are much less prone to these types of errors, which is why most cases are decades old.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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How dare you make other people think?
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7784815 - 12/21/07 08:32 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Did you ever read my thread on grammar and believers? The more deeply into the paranormal, the worse the errors. Must be some sort of wiring error in the logic comprehension area of the brain. Hell, you are not a native English speaker and write better than most on MRP.
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daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
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O come on thats just gayness.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: daytripper23]
#7784868 - 12/21/07 08:58 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Not really. Sloppiness, inattention to details, and being either lackadaisical or unaware of how to apply normally accepted rules are generally the hallmarks of those into the paranormal.
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daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
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Sure, but that doesn't change how silly it is to correct someones on this board. Whats the idea of pointing this out? There's one place for this, grammar school. But in the rest of the world communication is a two way street. Correct the wrong guys grammar and he and his buddy Cletus might 'gone' cut yer balls off.'
This really answers the original posters question, whether you can see it or not. The world defines our science, logic, and our language. Not vice versa. Language of all things is the least absolute. It IS context.
See the absurdity in this, and maybe you can see the whats wrong with defining the world through pure logic.
Ok before you refute me, first, know that I am not at all supporting the evidence of aliens or what ever ego death is talking about.
Secondly, perhaps you think that I hate and reject science and logic, but I don't. I'm just saying there's more to life than what logic can explain, and actually you can see this by looking at the world logically...
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Clean
the lense
Registered: 05/11/03
Posts: 2,374
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: daytripper23]
#7785014 - 12/21/07 10:12 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'm just saying there's more to life than what logic can explain, and actually you can see this by looking at the world logically...
mm, a paradox, ey? :
you want reason to suspect reality may be greater than we imagine- try to fully account for prohibition of cannabis etc. using only "logic" and "reason".
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Yes but your ignoring the rest of the case,
Radar evidence was just part of it.
There were two F-16s chasing this thing and they had lock ons of it flying in space.
Do we have a space bird on our hands.
Theres was also hundreds or corroborating videos and photos
Considering that you have shown repeatedly that you will disregard a whole phenomena based on 1 idea then theres no point me debating anymore. A good detective looks at all possibilities they don't just declare themselves an expert then pick a suspect. Sorry but your skills of deduction are extremely narrow minded.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7785116 - 12/21/07 10:53 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Come on EG, what does 10,000 believers declaring the Phoenix Lights to be genuine UFOs (read: alien spacecraft) when it has been conclusively demonstrated that they were military flares?
Does this not speak to one's ability to project whatever fantasy onto an object that one desires?
Many years ago I wrote an in-depth article on why 95% of UFO sightings are at night. This has to do with poor night vision, lack of frame of reference, inability to see an outline and to tell distance in the sky and the ability of the human mind to fill in a pattern.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7786118 - 12/21/07 04:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
So what do scientists want?
.
A physical piece of ANYTHING AT ALL that could not possibly come from Earth.
What are the chances of there being actual evidence found, but it being in the hands of top military type scientists with a big stamp on the file folder/box that says "TOP SECRET".....? I mean for real, it would be in the best interest of the country's security not to make public any new technologies and such that "we" don't understand ourselves.... If it was to fall into the "wrong hands", who knows what could happen, but I am sure the scenarios have all been played out on some governmental geek's computer somewhere....
The best way to keep it all under wraps is to deny the claims and fill everyone with doubt....
It seems enough people make enough bad information on their own by misinterpreting already....
Makes it easy to bury the whole lot as "garbage", when there is already a foundation of garbage....
Seems like a viable solution/scenario to me.... And, I am NOT saying this is any more than a thought experiment, but we are talking about the security of the country when talking about the possibility of E.T. technology and such.... The government/military intelligence/technology and it's influence kinda~ pwns all.... And I am not saying this to be something negative, but, it is what it is.... 
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER"
>^;;^<
--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....
"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7786248 - 12/21/07 04:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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What are the chances of there being actual evidence found, but it being in the hands of top military type scientists with a big stamp on the file folder/box that says "TOP SECRET".....?
In EVERY country in the world? Including those that currently can't even keep track of their nuclear material? Including those that would LOVE the attention and exposure revealing such a thing would bring them? And somehow not a single hick farmer anywhere on the surface of the Earth who found a crashed ship before the military got to it ever took a piece of it to a TV or newspaper reporter?
I don't think so.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7786356 - 12/21/07 05:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Physical evidence..
You're not understanding what I (and most people) mean by the phrase "Physical Evidence".
Physical evidence is a thing I can hold in my hand and put under a microscope and pass through a chromatograph to find molecules that are beyond human technology or biological material that is not from Earth.
Lemme see if I can make it crystal clear. Here are some examples that ARE physical evidence and that would IMMEDIATELY convince me and many other mainstream scientists:
1. A bacteria with DNA (or whatever ET uses) that does not match life on Earth
2. A piece of hair that doesn't match anything living on Earth
3. A lice (does ET get lice?) or other insect or whatever that doesn't match anything living on Earth
4. A bit of saliva that doesn't match anything living on Earth
5. A bit of cloth (does ET wear clothes?) that is beyond our ability to manufacture
6. A pinch of skin sluff off the floor of the ship that doesn't match anything living on Earth
7. A bit of blood (or whatever ET uses) that doesn't match anything living on Earth
8. A toe or finger nail that doesn't match anything living on Earth
9. A piece of metal that we cannot melt
10. Anything that emits a new type of radiation unknown to humans
11. A new isotope of any of the 100+ elements that humans have never seen
12. A little bit of neutronium
13. A little bit of ANYTHING that is beyond human technology
14. An explanation of how they travel faster than light. This is not physical but close enough for jazz.
There are literally millions of things that would qualify. Pictures, crop circles, stories of abduction, and everything similar is NOT physical evidence.
You guys have only had 100 years. How much longer? Is there ANY other true claim in human history that has taken this long to be proved? None that I know of.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7786852 - 12/21/07 07:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
In EVERY country in the world? Including those that currently can't even keep track of their nuclear material? Including those that would LOVE the attention and exposure revealing such a thing would bring them? And somehow not a single hick farmer anywhere on the surface of the Earth who found a crashed ship before the military got to it ever took a piece of it to a TV or newspaper reporter?
See, now you have gone and turned it into what I would think would be something of a rare occurrence (*if at all*) into every country having a crash site....? Just how many E.T. crash sites do you think are here....!?
There would be a two out of three chance that an E.T. crash site would be in the ocean.... If one happened on land, I would think "we" would swiftly quarantine everything near the site, people and all.... Farmer Buck would be in lock-down mode for the safety/security of people/life on this planet....
We don't have to own other countries to make use of the highly sophisticated monitoring satellites in orbit around the planet looking for first signs of war....
Most other countries are occupied by our intelligence either way....
Quote:
Diploid said:
I don't think so.
Same here, but neither of us "knows so"....
My mind fills in the blanks with possibilities, knowing all of which have a super-duper-ultra-low-next-to-nothing probability of being actual....
But then, I have never had an experience with anything E.T.ish - that I know of....
I can't fight either side and be serious, but that doesn't mean that my scenario wouldn't be valid if there was or is to be such an occurrence....
>^;;^<
--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....
"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7786978 - 12/21/07 08:08 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Just how many E.T. crash sites do you think are here....!?
A lot, judging by the testimony of True Believers. But even if there are only two, is it likely that both crashed on US soil?
swiftly quarantine everything near the site
Not if it crashed in Hoe-dunk, Nowhere. Locals are going to get to it before the quarantine people, satellite detection or not.
And if it crashes on South Beach, I'll be taking some of it home before the quarantine gets here. 
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7787103 - 12/21/07 08:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
What are the chances of there being actual evidence found, but it being in the hands of top military type scientists with a big stamp on the file folder/box that says "TOP SECRET".....?
I have covered this before. The alleged Roswell incident had scraps of debris covering over a square mile of desert landscape. What are the odds of not one soldier squirelling away a tiny piece of alien foil or a scrap or two being overlooked? *coughs* Near zero.
On the same note, I cannot see how a space-faring ship that could survive enormous amounts of radiation, atmospheric deceleration, micrometeors etc., would explode when hit by lightning. My plausibilometer needle pegs on that scenario.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Didn't mean to be redundant, Dip. Did not read your replies when I posted this. Seems we think alike...
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Well, static electricity is not exclusive to the Earth, so I think it would be more plausible to a re-entry problem, or a malfunction....
And I only give those examples in my thought experiment because they have happened in our own space missions....
As for the alleged Roswell debris, I agree, the odds are low, but low doesn't mean "0" chances....
Probability says that there is close to zero chance for life in the universe, yet here we are in all our glory - temporarily beating the odds....
>^;;^<
--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....
"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7787159 - 12/21/07 09:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Probability says that there is close to zero chance for life in the universe
Sorry, probability says nothing of the kind. After the fact of any occurrences the chance is always 1:1 or 100%. Can't get better odds than that.
If I shuffle a deck of cards and deal you any random hand, the odds of that hand occurring BEFORE being dealt is 52 factorial (52 * 51 * 50 * ... 3 * 2 * 1) which is far more than the number of estimated stars in the universe. After being dealt the odds are *TADA* 1:1.
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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (12/21/07 11:00 PM)
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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How can the odds be 1:1 when there wasn't always life on this planet....?
And knowing (at least *almost* knowing) that some day there will also not be life on this planet....?
(or did I just totally miss your explanation?)
>^;;^<
--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....
"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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OK, I think got it now..... 
Sssooo, the odds of there being life in the universe BEFORE there was life on this planet was near to being zero -
or would the odds be absolute zero, since life is a prerequisite of there being odds in the first place....?
>^;;^<
--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....
"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7787495 - 12/21/07 10:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Physical evidence..
You're not understanding what I (and most people) mean by the phrase "Physical Evidence".
Physical evidence is a thing I can hold in my hand and put under a microscope and pass through a chromatograph to find molecules that are beyond human technology or biological material that is not from Earth.
Lemme see if I can make it crystal clear. Here are some examples that ARE physical evidence and that would IMMEDIATELY convince me and many other mainstream scientists:
1. A bacteria with DNA (or whatever ET uses) that does not match life on Earth
2. A piece of hair that doesn't match anything living on Earth
3. A lice (does ET get lice?) or other insect or whatever that doesn't match anything living on Earth
4. A bit of saliva that doesn't match anything living on Earth
5. A bit of cloth (does ET wear clothes?) that is beyond our ability to manufacture
6. A pinch of skin sluff off the floor of the ship that doesn't match anything living on Earth
7. A bit of blood (or whatever ET uses) that doesn't match anything living on Earth
8. A toe or finger nail that doesn't match anything living on Earth
9. A piece of metal that we cannot melt
10. Anything that emits a new type of radiation unknown to humans
11. A new isotope of any of the 100+ elements that humans have never seen
12. A little bit of neutronium
13. A little bit of ANYTHING that is beyond human technology
14. An explanation of how they travel faster than light, not physical but good enough for jazz.
There are literally millions of things that would qualify. Pictures, crop circles, stories of abduction, and everything similar is NOT physical evidence.
You guys have only had 100 years. How much longer? Is there ANY other true claim in human history that has taken this long to be proved? None that I know of.
There are explanations of faster than light travel. Look into it..
Also, of all the examples of biological evidcence you speak of, how do you expect any mainstream scientist to get their hands on any of it? Saliva? How the fuck are you going to find ET saliva?
There has been alot of physical evidence. This evidence ofcourse would have to be in the hands of high ranking military scientists and the like. What are the chances that a scientist that is passionate about UFO phenomena is going to get his hands on any of that stuff?
Say a UFO crashed in the field of middle of bum-fuck idaho, and joe-blow stumbles upon it? Who's the first person they are going to contactm besides maybe a couple friends and family? That leads to the possession and monitoring by whom? His scientist buddy that just happens to study biology? No, those who control what is spoken about in the mainstream, are the same ones that are going to control what is done with the crashed UFO.
You speak as if though saucers are crashing all over the place, it doesn't work like that. You don't have planes crashing everyday, so how do you expect airborn craft that is tens if not thousands or millions years more advance, crashing all over the planet?
I have met people that have devoted their lives to the UFO phenomem because of the sightings/experiences they have had. This includes day time sightings aswell, and IN YOUR FACE, not to mention mutiple witnesses during those sightings. This is deep shit and it's not hard to tell that none of you skeptics have ever had any sort of close encounter. The whole agenda has UNFATHOMABLY DEEP IMPLICATIONS. But the more you actually look into it, you find they aren't really unfathomable. Infact, if you use logic when considering what the universe is, what we are, and what we are doing... fuk man.. it's not rocket science.
And you also assume that the U.S. government is the only one that is sensitive to ET information. Come on now..
Why are numerous high ranking officials going on Larry King live and speaking of UFOs? Why do you have some tired old fat guy who has certain credentials then trying to explain to them that it was just weather anomalies? What's all this shit about?
If you don't accept their existance, then you must assume that the UFO phenomena is man-made by elites to further coax the masses into following their agenda for world domination?
What DO you make of all this?
People speak as if though all the secrets out there are easily available for all to find.
Can you tell me what people secretly talk about closed doors?
No. So you can't tall me that there is no secret. There IS a secret, let's keep trying to find out WHAT it might be!! Infact, people have been doing this for 100 years! And THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE SO FAR. (which I still don't understand why people still scoff such evidence off as garbage because of a few bad apples).
Do the skeptics truly believe the thousands of abduction reports are all based on fiction or a few short circuits in the brain?
If a person told you your partner was cheating on you, yet you refused to believe it because of how many "I love yous" are said, would you wait for a private investigator to bring you back a sample of sperm from her vagina that was not yours?
Ego-Death has sourced many things to look at. Considering the implications of what it could all mean is what counts! You don't have to be convinced.
As one whistle-blower said "Absence of evidence, does NOT mean evidence of absence!"
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7787501 - 12/21/07 10:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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You haven't been reading this thread. 
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7787524 - 12/21/07 11:03 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ginseng1 said:
Also, of all the examples of biological evidcence you speak of, how do you expect any mainstream scientist to get their hands on any of it?
Saliva? How the fuck are you going to find ET saliva?
The formal CSI way is to use a Q-tip, but a used: cigarette, drinking glass, or eating utensil - will do in a pinch....
>^;;^<
--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....
"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7787542 - 12/21/07 11:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Look Dipster, what you fail to grasp is that there is overwhelming evidence, it is just kept out of our hands so as not to terrify us. If there was no Top Secret conspiracy, we would be flooded with all the proof you need, but the fact that there is no proof confirms the conspiracy and thus, the reality of ET visitation.
Comprende amigo?
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7787554 - 12/21/07 11:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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True. The point is that you guys will never have your point of views changed unless you get abducted yourselves or have an alien in a zoo.
Ego-Death is well versed in this matter, and he has addressed your skeptic remarks. Yet you seem to take nothing from it, or address the sources yourselves and disected them in any way.
have a look at the visible universe.
http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/universe.html
What can you make of this? I like to think of it this way.
- estimated 14 billion yrs old.
- 14 billion light years across.. and this is only the light that has reached us so far. It may yet be unimaginably bigger.
-Everything is a multiple. EVERYTHING. (fact)
-Life comes in multiples. (fact.. look at earth)
-Life takes on various different shapes and forms and can thrive in completely different temperments (fact)
-Life evolves of itself. It manipulates its surroundings (fact)
-Intelligent life exists in this universe (fact)
-Advanced technology exists in this universe (fact)
-Technology evolves (fact)
-Humans an estimated 10,000 years in existance.
Think about it.
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7787557 - 12/21/07 11:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sssooo, the odds of there being life in the universe BEFORE there was life on this planet was near to being zero
I would have to see your calculations to give feedback as you have failed to state upon which you base the probability.
And yes - you got it. The fact that we are here contemplating the probability says there must be a 100% chance of life occurring.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Resistance is futile..... 
(in response to your "Comprende amigo" post)
>^;;^<
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I'll be your midnight French Fry....
"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7787577 - 12/21/07 11:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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What interesting, is that thanks to this whole dicussion, my original question has been aswered! 
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7787612 - 12/21/07 11:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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And the reason no UFO nuts are able to get advanced degrees in science or debate logically is confirmed.
Everybody wins!
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
And the reason no UFO nuts are able to get advanced degrees in science or debate logically is confirmed.
Everybody wins!
First of all any logic you speak of is based on a need for mainstream information that is exclusively held accountable for confirming ET life and visitation. There is yet to be. That means absolutely nothing.
Secondly, you are trying to unify UFO phenomena, with a percieved level of competency and the word "nut", to further instill your views on others in a condisending manner. This is an old trick. People actualy think it actualy makes them look more intelligent than the rest.
Would it mean anything for me to state that some people with advanced degrees in science have actualy become "UFO nuts"?
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7787743 - 12/22/07 12:23 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
to further instill your views on others in a condisending manne
You are very funny. The very title and nature of this thread by you is antagonistic! And you cry "Foul!" 
Quote:
Would it mean anything for me to state that some people with advanced degrees in science have actualy become "UFO nuts"?
And yet time and time the UFO nuts cry, "Why can't science do this or that for us?"
If you have insiders, then why complain why a geologist, a computer scientist, a chemist, and the millions of other scientists following their personal field of choice, do not drop everything and take up your fantasy cause? Can you guys possibly be any more lazy and self-centered?
What are YOU personally doing to bring new evidence? That's right. You're not doing a thing.
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
If you have insiders, then why complain why a geologist, a computer scientist, a chemist, and the millions of other scientists following their personal field of choice, do not drop everything and take up your fantasy cause? Can you guys possibly be any more lazy and self-centered?
??? Who ever complained that geologists should drop everything and take up our "fantasy cause"?
Again, using words like lazy and self-centered will get you nowhere fast.
The point is, that UFOlogists are able to consider the implications and accept possibility. Why is it our duty to find alien craft debris just to prove to the skeptics that visitation is happening?
Our duty is to research and make an objective decision based on what we have been presented. I seems as though yours is the same. What else could one do but take pictures of UFOs and speak of their experiences to others, including the literature they have found couple with cosmic laws and the implications of the possible reality.
Strange, how people seem to always fall on a different side of the coin, despite the evidence that is presented to them.
There is no winning here man.
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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7788072 - 12/22/07 05:07 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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When I told my own sister about seeing this strange saucer shaped craft land about 50 foot away from me she said "I don't want to know" and held her ears.
She came in the room when me and my parents were discussing it and she ran back out, lol. She hasn't let me tell her, to this day she will hear nothing of it.
Sometimes its easy to stick your head in the sand and feel secure. I spent years not being able to goto sleep, constantly checking out the window, scared. Now I've lived with it long enough to just accept it but I'm glad I don't live where it happened anymore. It was a remote place, where I used to live, they could of done anything to you out there.
After all the abduction stuff I read about, I wonder if they are aliens, were they taking people from the village? The place was remote enough for them to of landed anywhere. There was acres and acres of fields behind the village, so I wonder why they landed so close to the houses. They/it landed right behind my friends house.
There were at least 2 other witnesses to this craft, we spoke and agreed it appeared to be a flying saucer and was probably alien.
I drew some pictures, they are in my gallery. Admittedly the drawings are lame though!
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7788083 - 12/22/07 05:20 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ego-Death is well versed in this matter, and he has addressed your skeptic remarks.
Fuzzy pics, hoaxes and boring abduction stories that I've already debunked do not address any of my points.
Read this: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4702779#Post4702779
100 years. Where is the physical evidence?
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7788130 - 12/22/07 06:37 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
??? Who ever complained that geologists should drop everything and take up our "fantasy cause"?
Ego death, Shroomism and many, many others.
"Why won't scientists take us seriously and do research on the UFO phenomenon?"
I know this is going to be difficult, but are geologists scientists?
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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i thought there was supposed to be a forcefield that kept you out of mysticism forum swami.
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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7788142 - 12/22/07 06:54 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
No physical evidence Diploid, explain this then:
Ministry of defense detects radiation from landed UFO...
Charles Halt - Commander US base in Bentwaters, England
http://www.alien-uk.com/evidence.htm
Just one of the many things you ignored.
You did a great job there of picking out reasons why you didn't believe any of it but your reason were weak and do nothing prove that these things didn't happen.
The first case for example, you claim the polygrapher was inexperienced, so on this basis you disregard the entire story?
How do you explain the rendlesham forest incident?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7788154 - 12/22/07 07:07 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
When I told my own sister about seeing this strange saucer shaped craft land about 50 foot away from me she said "I don't want to know" and held her ears.
What message is this supposed to convey? Perhaps she is afraid for reasons that you are not telling us.
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: truekimbo2]
#7788156 - 12/22/07 07:08 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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also: i didn't read the whole thread, but mushroom trip.
in union square new york city. there is a kid who walks around with a sign that says "will heal or rap for food' or something similar to that. when i lived there he was out maybe 1-2 days a week in the summer at that park. some people recently told me they still see him around.
i followed him around for awhile watching him, and mainly he just like made people backs or heads stop aching.
but one time a lady flippently said "so can you heal my dog?" her dog was walking around fine, but it had a large scab on its knee. so he waved his hands over the dog (did not touch it at all) and then the dogs scab started profusely bleeding. the dog then began limping and had trouble walking. the lady said "what did you do to my dog" and he said "it gets worse before it gets better, it should be healed by tomorrow".
i didn't see him heal it, but he definitely made that dog bleed and limp without touching it.
if i remember correctly the kid told me he's cured cancer in people.
his name is te-devon. if you ever go to new york city you should follow him around for a couple weeks and then perhaps you'll get your proof.
also... just for the sake of argument. i've followed many many healers and psychics around... thats where i got some of my proof from. if you haven't spent time doing the same maybe you shouldn't be asking random people online to point you to a fox news article saying mystical healing finally proven.
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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: truekimbo2]
#7788161 - 12/22/07 07:11 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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My skeptic rays can burn through a weak, mystical force field like the sun melts an icicle in spring.
The gauntlet was thrown and I responded. Simple.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: truekimbo2]
#7788166 - 12/22/07 07:18 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
also... just for the sake of argument. i've followed many many healers and psychics around... thats where i got some of my proof from. if you haven't spent time doing the same maybe you shouldn't be asking random people online to point you to a fox news article saying mystical healing finally proven.
No, I don't have to start following healers around just so I gather more data about that.
The duty of proving that their statements are sustained, belongs to those who make the statements. For example, how can you prove that what you earlier said is real?
Why it is important to have a scientific validation, I have already explained (repeatedly) in this thread.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: truekimbo2]
#7788172 - 12/22/07 07:22 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Also:
Quote:
truekimbo2 said:
i thought there was supposed to be a forcefield that kept you out of mysticism forum swami.
I find it rather funny that the people who want swami out of M&P are those who are his most avid conversation partners. It seriously makes you wonder.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
|
truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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fuck man. honestly no wonder no one can demonstrate proof to you. supposing people did have the ability to alter physical reality based on mental energy, judging by your ability to respond i'd say you must have more psychic energy than the whole mysticism forum combined. so if they're like 1 of you for every 100-200 believers i'd say we're fucked.
edit: this was meant to be a good natured joke, not taken literally.
mushroomtrip: i don't understand, so if you have interested in this wouldn't you want to go find out first hand? or do you only have interest in telling people who have had that experience that if they don't prove it to you you're wrong.
i'm sorry i'm not trying to be... unduly argumentative. but like i said, i've watched maybe a 100 healers do their work. that experience i mentioned is the only time i've seen an observable macroscopic physical effect from a healer... i've told you where he is and how to find him, why don't you have a friend or relative or complete stranger go visit him and report on the results?
i guess... if you care as much as me to know whether these things are true or not, why don't you take the time to find out. and if you don't care as much as me then why argue?
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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
Edited by truekimbo2 (12/22/07 07:36 AM)
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: truekimbo2]
#7788186 - 12/22/07 07:42 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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hey if you guys are interested, last year i offered to bet money on whether i could spin a pinwheel using telekinesis inside a sealed container at the NE gathering.
i'll make the same bet this year if you want.
you get input in designing the experiment, you have someone there from your camp to witness firsthand, and it gets video recorded. the whole shroomery gets to vote on the outcome, with people that where there firsthand getting a larger portion of the vote.
i have to get odds on my money though, according to swami i should get roughly infinity on my odds since its never been done before, but i'll take something lower.
i can put up somewhere from 500-1000$ on this wager?
edit: infinite odds because its never been done AND isn't a real phenomenon.
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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: truekimbo2]
#7788361 - 12/22/07 09:36 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
truekimbo2 said:
hey if you guys are interested, last year i offered to bet money on whether i could spin a pinwheel using telekinesis inside a sealed container at the NE gathering.
.
i'll make the same bet this year if you want.
I missed the initial offer, but curious, what were the results last year....?
Quote:
truekimbo2 said:
you get input in designing the experiment, you have someone there from your camp to witness firsthand, and it gets video recorded. the whole shroomery gets to vote on the outcome, with people that where there firsthand getting a larger portion of the vote.
Put that video up when you get it, I just want to know if it is humanly possible - without any physics tricks....
If it was something that was possible, I am pretty sure I would dedicate a large portion of time in trying to figure it out how to do it myself....
Happy holidays folks, be safe and have fun....!
>^;;^<
--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....
"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7790313 - 12/22/07 07:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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no one took the bet last year, there was no test.
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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: truekimbo2]
#7790489 - 12/22/07 08:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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The Randi Challenge requires no money and pays a million, so essentially gives you infinite odds.
Not good enough?
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symbiotic
insighted
Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 105
Loc: ok,nm,co,ca,or
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Ya brilliant tell the world you have psychic powers! Guess what happens next, you are working for the CIA! FUN FUN FUN Some people are so ignorant to the brutality of the police state we live in.
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The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: symbiotic]
#7791117 - 12/23/07 12:10 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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This post is all over the place and makes NO sense whatsoever! 
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7791433 - 12/23/07 02:22 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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More confrimation of what I keep stressing about a logic deficiency in TBs.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
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So... we have determined that the problem with P+S heads is that they demand logic. I think we have also shown that non-P+S heads resent scientists for following the scientific method rather than accepting non-repeatable circumstantial evidence as proof. Did I miss anything?
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Just another spore in the wind.
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: symbiotic]
#7791618 - 12/23/07 06:13 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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james randi challenge is no longer open to everyone. its now available only to those with media presence, and who have signed document from "an acedemic" saying they've witnessed whatever powers.
so to say take the james randi challenge is a moot point.
no skeptics out here that like free money?
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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Seuss]
#7791741 - 12/23/07 08:15 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Geez Seuss, you could have saved us 12 pages (and counting) of useless blather. Get here earlier next time. 
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7791851 - 12/23/07 09:32 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ministry of defense detects radiation
I can dig up a uranium containing rock that emits radiation and is ENTIRELY TERRESTRIAL.
Why is it so hard to understand that for evidence to be extraterrestrial, it has to be of extraterrestrial origin. That means it doesn't exist on Earth.
Try again.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: truekimbo2]
#7791867 - 12/23/07 09:41 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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james randi challenge is no longer open to everyone
It was open to anyone for 50 years. Where were you?
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7792234 - 12/23/07 11:49 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
james randi challenge is no longer open to everyone
It was open to anyone for 50 years. Where were you?
It doesn't matter. He's here now making a bet about telekinesis. Why are you guys not jumping on this opportunity?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7792238 - 12/23/07 11:50 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yet another lame TB excuse. The money is STILL OPEN one merely has to qualify locally first as Randi was swamped with BS claims.
An affadavit from a univerisity physics department or other CREDIBLE public display will get Randi's attention.
And of course I invited TrueKimbo out here and *yawn* he is still talking about pinwheels years later. Normally they mature by now.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7792286 - 12/23/07 12:08 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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It doesn't matter. He's here now making a bet about telekinesis. Why are you guys not jumping on this opportunity?
Well, alright. Here's the thing.
At least two shroomerites, including myself, agreed to provisionally participate in a test of his powers and hand him big $ if he does what he says he can do.
Because I've been here before with other TBs who are full of shit, it was asked, and truekimbo2 AGREED, that before testing, he would produce a video of him filling a pickle jar with water (to show there are no holes in the jar), then dumping the water and placing a pinwheel in the jar which would then be sealed with duct tape. He would then move the pinwheel without touching the jar. This was to be done in one camera cut to prevent cheating.
That was over TWO YEARS AGO! Still no video. Of course, this hasn't stopped truekimbo2 from making dozens of new posts claiming these powers and bitching at me and others for not testing him. Nevermind that the promised video is nowhere to be seen.
If he ever actually follows through on his promise (don't hold your breath) I will follow through on my personal promise to fly him on my dime down here to Fort Lauderdale and personally arrange for the James Randi Educational Foundation to perform the formal test. And trust me, if I tell Randi that this guy is for real, Randi will listen to me, so the JREF test is not as closed as you might think. At least not for Shroomerites who manage to convince me.
Summary: for an hour's effort making a simple video, he would get a free, all-expense paid vacation to beautiful south Florida and a chance at a cool million in cash.
I'm still waiting. It's been two years. WTF is the problem?
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7792323 - 12/23/07 12:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Now you know how I feel.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7792362 - 12/23/07 12:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I can see where it would get tiring trying to maintain a fantasy.
For the trillionth time: one single verifiable exhibition shuts up skeptics FOR ALL TIME.
Notice folks that worldwide there is not one single 'Believer's Challenge' and we all know why that is.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7792371 - 12/23/07 12:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Make the tape truekimbo2, make the tape!
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Notice folks that worldwide there is not one single 'Believer's Challenge' and we all know why that is.
Apparently you aren't aware that there's a $250,000 challenge to prove evolution.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: DieCommie]
#7792388 - 12/23/07 12:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Make the tape truekimbo2, make the tape!
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7792399 - 12/23/07 12:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I am quite aware of this fallactious challenge.
Analysis of Dr Dino's $250,000 Challenge
Hello,
This challenge often comes up. There are plenty of refutations of his challenge around but I thought I would write my own.
Analysis of $250,000 Challenge.
The challenge: http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=250k
After looking through the Challenge it quickly becomes apparent that the challenged is rigged to be impossible to win, whether this was done on purpose or because of Hovind's miss-understandings is unknown.
General Evolution
Hovind has taken it upon himself to redefine the meaning of the theory of evolution, to include many different sections of science. He appears to think that just because science uses the word "evolution" in different theories, that that means they are all part of the theory of evolution. This forms a strawman, where the real theory of evolution is attacked because of less evidence in other theories. No matter how much Hovind wants to make his definition of evolution real, the reality of the matter is that the theory of evolution is part of biology and only biology. Now a look at Hovinds new definition.
"1. Time, space, and matter came into existence by themselves.
2. Planets and stars formed from space dust.
3. Matter created life by itself.
4. Early life-forms learned to reproduce themselves.
5. Major changes occurred between these diverse life forms (i.e., fish changed to amphibians, amphibians changed to reptiles, and reptiles changed to birds or mammals)."
1. Not part of the Theory of Evolution. Appears to be a combination of First Cause and the Big Bang. This is part of his strawman, because First cause has many different competing theories with about the same evidence, so right now, we don't know what was the first cause.
2. Not part of the Theory of Evolution. Although this is often called Stellar evolution, it is seperate from the theory of evolution.
3. Not part of the Theory of Evolution. This is abiogenesis, and another part of the strawman, because although there is evidence for abiogenesis, it is no where near what we have for evolution.
4. Now we almost get to evolution. The very beginnings of reproduction is still part of abiogenesis. Once reproduction or replication starts to happen, then we get to evolution.
5. Finally evolution, with a twist of course. The twist is because Hovind has again redefined terms and he wants proof for his version of Macro evolution, which is changes between Kinds. Of course, he seems to refuse to define what a "kind" really is, often falling back on the claim that people should Just know.
So, out of the 5, only one is part of the theory of evolution, and even it has been changed to fit Hovind's view.
Known Options
Hovind gives us a couple options as to how the universe came about,
"1. The universe was created by God.
2. The universe always existed.
3. The universe came into being by itself by purely natural processes (known as evolution) so that no appeal to the supernatural is needed."
"Prove beyond reasonable doubt that the process of evolution (option 3 above, under "known options") is the only possible way the observed phenomena could have come into existence."
Here we can see what makes his challenge impossible to answer. Hovind has equated Creationism with theism and Evolution with atheism, as we can see in his options. This is what makes his challenge impossible to answer, no matter what evidence we have.
Science is agnostic, it can not prove nor disprove god. Same goes for evolution. It is impossible for science to prove that god was not involved in the universe. Since option 3 is basically saying "prove that god did not have a hand in the creation of the universe or how it runs." it is outside the realm of science and thus can not be proven through empirical evidence.
As mentioned, evolution is not atheism, and can easily be compatible with theism. Evolution is not atheism and atheism is not provable through science, so the challenge becomes impossible to win. It is possible to show that whether there is a god or not, evolution is backed by evidence.
Other Problems
Others have suggested that there are more problems with the challenge.
That Hovind's definition of "prove" or "beyond a reasonable doubt" is much different than anyone else's. Science can not "prove" something 100% so there will always be a possibility of doubt, reasonable or not, is up to Hovind. If he considered any doubt reasonable, then it would be impossible for us to "prove" anything to him.
Some also question his fairness, as in the challenge we find out that although he has a committee, all papers must go through him first, before they go to the committee. And thus he has the chance to pick and choose which papers, if any, he gives to the committee for review.
While these may be valid points, they don't really matter, since we have already seen that the challenge is impossible.
Conclusion
The challenge is designed to be impossible to win. It asks us to prove with science, something that is outside the realm of science, to prove god does not exist. It also asks us to prove Hovind's version of evolution, which includes parts of science that do not have as much evidence as the theory of evolution, and an incorrect version of the theory of evolution.
So does this prove that evolution is false, or that no evidence exists for evolution (or the other theories Hovind linked to Evolution)? No. what it does prove is that Hovind does not understand Science or the Theory of Evolution.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7792411 - 12/23/07 12:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I am curious as to whether you believe Hovind's Creationist stance or not.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Of course not. I was just refuting your point that there is no "Believer's Challenge."
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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And just for the record, I'm not a believer either. In fact I'm less of a believer than you.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7792515 - 12/23/07 01:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Of course not. I was just refuting your point that there is no "Believer's Challenge."
A Challenge that is theoretically impossible to win has no merit whatsoever. No amount of data will qualify.
The Swami and Randi Challenge's are theoretically possible to win.
HUGE difference.
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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are you talking about this thread diploid?
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3146265/page/0/fpart/all/vc/1
i'm guessing probably not.
post the link to thread you're talking about, because i remember you
a) changing the subject alot
b) never saying you'd be willing to wager money
c) never offering to hook me up with the JREF
i'm curious to see where my memory fails me.
again, so if i'm just some idiot who's making shit up for years, why won't you take MY CHALLENGE.
from your point of view of course i can't produce a video showing me doing telekinesis because it doesn't exsist,
So why don't you accept my challenge and take my money...
again, i'd like to see the post in which i challenged you a second time, because it seems this is going the same way.
also, this isn't just for diploid, this is for anyone. all you true believers that i am crazy or lying, according to your figures you're getting PERFECT ODDS, you cannot lose, how could you pass up an opportunity to make a wager in which you have 100% odds.
edit: i was thinking we could have an admin, mod, or shroomery member in good standing who will be at the NE gathering acting as the escrow? both people send the money to him/her 2 months before the gathering or something like that? i figure thats more reasonable than just expecting the other person to bring cash in hand?
--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
Edited by truekimbo2 (12/23/07 05:17 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: truekimbo2]
#7794118 - 12/23/07 10:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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More blah blah blah, STILL no video.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7794727 - 12/24/07 03:27 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Back when all the pinwheel threads were active I made one to play with. I was absolutely amazed... following the youtube videos, I cupped my hands around the pinwheel and concentrated on it spinning. Within a few moments it started to spin. I concentrated on it stopping and spinning the opposite direction, and it did so. (I'm being honest here.) It literally felt like I was controlling the motion of the pinwheel. Then the skeptic in me kicked in...
My next test was to do the same thing, but with a jar over the pinwheel. This time there was no motion. Hmmm... so something I did, without realizing that I did it, was causing the pinwheel to spin. Long story short, I finally figured out that it was the warm air rising off my hands that were cupped around the pinwheel that was causing it to spin. Slight shifts in my hand position would alter the direction of spin.
Even with a glass over the pinwheel, I was able to get it to spin by using a heating element (overdriven resistor). But, more importantly, I saw just how easy it is to fool myself into thinking that I was doing something mystical. When I say it felt like I was making the pinwheel spin, it really did. I wasn't expecting any motion at all, and was surprised when it first started to move.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Seuss]
#7794781 - 12/24/07 05:17 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Dood, you've got the power!
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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seuss back when i used to play around with the pinwheel i learned to do it without my hands, from a distance, with multiple pinwheels and i could make them spin in different directions, so i was pretty convinced.
also i've made it spin an a container a couple times without using my hands...
i've also moved other things, rolled pencils and slowed down clocks and such, but never with regularity, so at this stage i'm pretty certain.
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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: truekimbo2]
#7794810 - 12/24/07 06:06 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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More blah blah blah, STILL no video.
Anyone starting to see a pattern here? Hello?
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
|
Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7794816 - 12/24/07 06:16 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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exactly, more blah blah blah. no money where mouth is. starting to see a pattern here? its been years.
--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: truekimbo2]
#7794831 - 12/24/07 06:40 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Until you do what you already agreed to do FIRST, don't expect me to take you seriously.
The ball is in your court.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
|
Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
#7794863 - 12/24/07 07:30 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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link? i'd still like to see that thread
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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
 Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: truekimbo2]
#7794876 - 12/24/07 07:47 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm here NOW telling you that for a simple video you get a free vacation and a shot at a million bucks.
But noooo! Instead of getting out a cell phone and shooting the video, here you are blahing about a 2+ year old link and bitching that I won't cooperate.
Geezus!
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
|
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