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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
    #7771478 - 12/17/07 08:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I mean, if visualization can cure cancer and such, it should also cure amputations, no?



What makes you say that? Can antibiotics cure an amputation?


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7772688 - 12/18/07 02:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

No, but since this healing can cure cancer (as in making all the cancerous cell to disappear - or change their structure into normal ones), you'd think that it can also make other cells grow. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7772807 - 12/18/07 04:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> I'm curious. Are there any visualizations for amputees that will restore the missing limb?

No, but visualization of the amputated limb being whole rather than amputated will help reduce phantom pain. Results were published in a medical journal last month and showed a remarkable improvement in the visualization group compared to the control group.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/357/21/2206


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Seuss]
    #7772954 - 12/18/07 07:16 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, but this is a mental process.
It's like... let's say, when you see someone cutting their finger and it makes your finger hurt too.
This can't be called magic or psychic healing. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7772991 - 12/18/07 07:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> This can't be called magic or psychic healing.

Oh, I agree completely. I'm just saying that the mind is a powerful tool when it comes to healing, or improving, the body. No magic or mysticism about it, at least in my mind, but claims that visualization is worthless or ineffective are not true. A good test, which has been done, and failed every time, would be to see if my visualization can help you heal.


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7773106 - 12/18/07 09:05 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Theres no proof that its mental either though.

I think its likely it is mental though.

Western science has largely disregarded these things as pseudoscience whilst ignoring the fact they actually work.

This also carries my point about this over categorizing that is going on here. Take everything individually, research thoroughly and unbiasedly and you won't have science overlooking reality.

Maybe the mystical nature of these things are what make them work better - they facilitate the power of belief.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7773185 - 12/18/07 09:40 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
No, but since this healing can cure cancer (as in making all the cancerous cell to disappear - or change their structure into normal ones), you'd think that it can also make other cells grow. :shrug:



So because it kill certain cells, it should also make other cells grow back?  Has a machine gun ever brought someone back to life?


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7773225 - 12/18/07 09:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The key is in certain
Certain as in cancerous cells, therefore that energy is implied to be informed. To have some sort of intelligence that discerns cancerous cells from healthy cells.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7773269 - 12/18/07 10:08 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yes. So what does that have to do with amputees?


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7773278 - 12/18/07 10:15 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

One would think that if there's an energy able to destroy cancer cells, it would also have the power to regenerate missing limbs :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7773476 - 12/18/07 11:27 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
One would think that if there's an energy able to destroy cancer cells, it would also have the power to regenerate missing limbs :shrug:



That's like saying that since gravity is able to pull you to the ground, then it should be able to make you leap over tall buildings.  This is a problem I see with a lot of debunkers and cynics.  They think that in order for psi phenomenon to be real, it has to be infallible.  It's like saying that if eyesight is real, then you should be able to see a thumbtack from 100 miles away.  Any ability, particularly one we're not used to using, is naturally going to have its limits.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7773787 - 12/18/07 01:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> They think that in order for psi phenomenon to be real, it has to be infallible.

Not infallible (at least for me), but repeatable. I need it to be repeatable so that I can test it under controlled conditions in order to "prove" (in the scientific sense) that it is real.

A good example... how many people have picked up the phone to call somebody only to have that person on the other end of the phone without having heard the phone ring? In the days of land lines, this was fairly common. In a classroom of 30, almost everybody would claim to have experienced this. However, if one works out the statistics, you are more likely to be struck by lightening. This sounds like great proof of some kind of psychic something of another going on. Unfortunately, it is not something that can be controlled in a repeatable manner for science to test. We can look at the statistics, but nothing more. Perhaps our calculation of the chances of this happening were incorrect. Perhaps something else. Perhaps it is some kind of psychic something, but because it cannot be repeated in a controlled manner, we simply don't know.


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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Seuss]
    #7773905 - 12/18/07 01:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

examples of telepathy:

- People thinking of the same song, one person starts humming only to find out that their friend was thinking of the same song at the exact same time.

- Distant friends contacting eachother on the same day they they visualized eachother.

- Parallel dreams.


All of these things happen, all the time.

People often think of coincidences as random chance. I think coinsidence could one day be explained through a mathematical equation. Physical properties that dwell within quanta ofcourse. In time.. it can all be explained. Just how in time the microworld was revealed in the past.

We would have never been able to percieve and visualized that we have microscopic elves conducting unimaginably complex metabolic processes in the body and the like.


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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...


Edited by Ginseng1 (12/18/07 01:50 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Seuss]
    #7773906 - 12/18/07 01:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> They think that in order for psi phenomenon to be real, it has to be infallible.

Not infallible (at least for me), but repeatable. I need it to be repeatable so that I can test it under controlled conditions in order to "prove" (in the scientific sense) that it is real.



And that is a perfectly sensible expectation. What I'm referring to is people who are intolerant of subtlety in paranormal phenomenon. If you claim to have psychic powers, then you have to be able to win the lottery with those powers. If someone claims some miraculous healing power, they must be able to regenerate limbs. My point is that if we're dealing with something that isn't fully understood, then why put expectations on it beyond what is being claimed?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7773977 - 12/18/07 02:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

If you claim to have psychic powers, then you have to be able to win the lottery with those powers.

A better interpretation of the skeptic view is that if you claim psychic powers, you should be able to demonstrate them to a trained observer.

My point is that if we're dealing with something that isn't fully understood, then why put expectations on it beyond what is being claimed?

Because psychic healing claims are not subtle and don't seem to have any limits. There is nothing subtle about: "I can cure terminal cancer with my magic".

Cancer, colds, viruses, brain damage, blindness, ingrown hairs, even behavioral and substance abuse problems and much more have all been claimed to have been cured by psychic healing or prayer after western medicine failed. Given such grandiose claims, it should be a simple matter to restore an amputation or verifiably cure someone with terminal cancer and a month to live, no?

That never happens other than in second and third hand stories, and if humans are good at anything it's embellishing and exaggerating stories.

What's more, if psychics and prayer are healing people that western medicine cannot, it would have been reported in a peer reviewed medical journal by now. This hasn't been reported and not for lack of trying. Numerous controlled studies have been done looking for these phenomenon without success.

So, again, it's not about winning the lottery to demonstrate paranormal claims. It's about demonstrating those claims AT ALL. Forget the lottery. Just demonstrate for a trained observer what you say you can do and the skeptics will shut up once and for all.

Why hasn't that ever happen?


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
    #7774009 - 12/18/07 02:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Regrowing a limb involves regrowing bones, which no drug known to man can do. Curing cancer actually seems a small feat compared to that. Cannabis has been shown to kill cancerous cells.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7774044 - 12/18/07 02:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Regrowing a limb involves regrowing bones, which no drug known to man can do.

No drug known to man can cure terminal cancer either but psychics claim they can.

But be that as it may, if fixing amputations is too hard, then how about something simple, like curing a bald head or nearsightedness? Surely those are easier to do than curing terminal cancer.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
    #7774073 - 12/18/07 02:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

That may or may not be possible. All I'm saying is that if they say they can cure cancer, test their ability to cure cancer, instead of using strawman arguments. Do we insist that aspirin work as a form of birth control just because it can prevent heart attacks?

Note that I'm not saying that psi phenomena is real(though my own experience tells me there's something to it, even if I can't prove it). I'm just saying trying to keep the debate honest instead of getting into logical fallacies.


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Edited by Silversoul (12/18/07 02:46 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7774107 - 12/18/07 02:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

All I'm saying is that if they say they can cure cancer, test their ability to cure cancer

That's been done. No difference was found in the cure rates of those treated by psychics (or prayer).

The larger point is that for those psychics who DO claim to cure OTHER things, they can't seem to cure those either when trained observers are watching.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Diploid]
    #7774216 - 12/18/07 03:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

BTW, here are some interesting scientific journal articles on psi phenomena:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v245/n5419/abs/245052a0.html
http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/abstracts/v9n4a2.php
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3872806
http://www.jsasoc.com/docs/isseem.pdf
http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/class/Psy391P/Does%20Psi%20Exist%EF%80%A5.pdf

Unfortunately, you can only read the abstracts without paying, but I don't think the scientific data is as overwhelmingly against the phenomena as you might believe.


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