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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Seuss]
#7752640 - 12/13/07 06:10 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Incredibly weak response. 
How can a human report an unobserved phenomenon without making it up? Answer: He/she can't.
An impartial observer no more affects a phenomenom than a biased observer. The difference is the impartial observer limits the variables and conditions to isolate a phenomenon from background noise.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
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> An impartial observer no more affects a phenomenom than a biased observer.
I'm talking about observer versus no observer, not biased versus unbiased. As I said, I don't buy the excuse, but I think it is valid.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Seuss]
#7752655 - 12/13/07 06:19 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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No observer = no phenomenon. Which part is difficult?
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
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How can a human capture a ghost or an alien craft and test it? How can we capture a spontaneous telepathic experience and test it?
You are largely correct, that I don't deny!
But it also a fact that you cannot ASSUME all things into one category. So you found some UFO sightings that appear to be most likely hoaxes and this warrants a total disbelief for a huge realm of possibility?
That is the problem, a debunker is biased. He acts on previous experience as opposed to taking each case individually.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
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> No observer = no phenomenon. Which part is difficult?
So nothing happens unless it is observed?
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7752816 - 12/13/07 08:00 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Many times I have asked UFO buffs for their absolute BEST evidence and it was severely lacking.
Do people lie?
Do people exaggerate?
Do people like to tell stories?
Do people misidentify/fill in incomplete data with whatever they want to see?
We know these things are part of being human, so to believe more than that something solid needs to be presented. Hasn't happened yet.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Seuss]
#7752817 - 12/13/07 08:02 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Are you being deliberately obtuse/trolling?
How can one report something that has not been observed? Third time now.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
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> Are you being deliberately obtuse/trolling?
No, but I am trying to avoid dropping down into "science" and it is giving me difficulties. I'm not very good at debating this side.
> How can one report something that has not been observed?
Using the double slit experiment as an example. Electrons shot at a double slit generate interference patterns the same as waves. We can observe this. However, if we test to see which slit an electron goes through, the interference patters disappear and the electrons are observed to behave as particles instead. As soon as we stop testing to see which slit the electrons are going through, the interference patters return as the electrons start to behave like waves again.
In the metaphysical sense, is it not reasonable to consider that the act of testing "something", as opposed to simply observing "something" when it happens, negates the "something" from happening.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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daytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
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mystic and science are two sides of the same coin.
I dont think one reigns over the other and I dont support either as absolute. Imposition of one on the other (like this thread) is silly.
But on the other hand I think the rational purists have had this coming. A superiority complex often arises because abstraction by nature tends to be overpowered by the more grounded rational, logical aspect of nature. But in this "pure logic" certain irrationalities are very often implied. Has anyone seen the movie the illusionist? This should be the official movie of the shroomery!
We all worship something, in a general sense this is the artistic nature of the universe. Thats why we ALL live. If you can think of a reason of living besides being to afraid to kill yourself, you worship something that is irrational in nature.
The best pure rationality might explain art, or the development of sensuality, is that patterns of complexity arise out of chaos. But this is not at all art itself, merely the materiality it arises from.
The thing is many rationalists would have you believe they do not worship anything, but we all know they do.;)
Mystic is implicit, science is explicit. For me, they dont necessarily conflict
Edited by daytripper23 (12/13/07 09:23 AM)
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vitadura
Dream Seeker


Registered: 03/11/07
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Silversoul]
#7752911 - 12/13/07 09:12 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: What's with divisive people who try to draw lines between themselves and others? Where's the love?
This is (more or less) what I was thinking when I opened the thread. But I also have to give kudos to bug for making such a great statement on the subject as well.
-------------------- "You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here." -Max Ehrmann, Desiderata
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: vitadura]
#7752927 - 12/13/07 09:28 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
daytripper23 said: Mystic is implicit, science is explicit. For me, they dont necessarily conflict 
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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How many times have you completely ignored my best evidence?
I gave you some of the best cases known and all you did was revert to your "Yeah but the Phoenix lights were flares" and ignore all the good evidence.
Besides thats not the point.
This is (what I already said): That is the problem, a debunker is biased. He acts on previous experience as opposed to taking each case individually.
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7753009 - 12/13/07 09:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Do I need to move this thread to P+S? 
OC, I feel sorry for you. Where is the magic, mystery, and wonder in your fundamaterialist tunnel?
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: daytripper23]
#7753017 - 12/13/07 09:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
mystic and science are two sides of the same coin.
They should be but they are not.
Science tends to reject human experience. Scientists that study some things are deemed to be non-credible. When science itself has these unwritten human social rules how can it be completely true to its original goal?
Science is capable of discerning that strange phenomena exist. That is clear to most logical human beings. Yet for a scientist to admit that, is professional suicide.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7753569 - 12/13/07 12:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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> Science tends to reject human experience.
Not really. Science demands repeatability. If the "human experience" is repeatable, then science can validate it. If there is no repeatability, then there can be no proof, thus science is not applicable. Look at the James Randi challenge; a challenge to find somebody that claims to have some metaphysical ability and can reproduce their ability in the lab. It isn't science that has failed here, but rather the "human experience" that has failed. Rather than blame science, why not ask why not one single person has been able to reproduce their claimed ability in a controlled setting?
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Seuss]
#7753691 - 12/13/07 01:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Human experience has been repeating itself.
Its the lab conditions required, I suppose you could call that repeatability. Its not likely we can get a ghost, an alien craft or a spontaneous telepathic experience into a lab.
I've experienced them all but I do not control when/if they will repeat.
The problem is science wants these things which are not (consciously at least) controlled by humans to be repeated on demand?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ego Death]
#7753806 - 12/13/07 01:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Science doesn't "want" anything.  God damn it, why is it SO hard to understand that these things must be tested first, before they are validated, because people will live their lives according to those validations? Let me give you an example: there are these so-called healers which pretend to get the cancer out of you and god knows what else. Now if science would give them any credit just like that and validate what they sustain, everybody would start contacting those "healers", get ripped off and die... obviously because they were not healed.  I am not saying that it isn't possible that there might be some people who possess such powers because I honestly don't know. All I am arguing about is the importance of validating those phenomenons.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe



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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7753981 - 12/13/07 02:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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On the subject of ETs.
One must be spiritually competent to understand/comprehend/accept the the great possibility and truth about intelligent life that is abundant throughout the universe. This is no longer a matter of wishful thinking or "belief". This is knowledge that is yet to be undisclosed but there is a BIG undergroud movement. Things are coming out slowly but surely simply because of the implications are of intelligent life interacting with humans at a level that is very much unexpected. Because there are as of yet 100% tangible proofs out there (although there are in many circles), this DOES mean we have to keep fighting for evidence, but it also means that we CANT keep scoffing off such possibilities. The implications that might exist are UNFATHOMABLE.
They do exist.
We must all expand our awareness and understand that there are no singularities in the universe, except MAYBE the universe itself. There are mutiples of EVERYTHING. Stars, galaxies, planets, blackholes, animals, INTELLIGENT LIFE MUCH MORE ADVANCED THAN US.
Many people have seen UFOs in the sky. Myself included, and alot of people I know. We have heard various reports of abduction all over the world. We have footage. We have pictures. We have people talking about what could very well be the truth. To ignore the possiblities is infantile.
Now, its fair to say that the ufo's we have seen could be government aircraft. It's possible, but when people actually research deep into this category, they see that it connects with everypart of humanities existance and even that of the quantum and external universe.
It is the "doubt" that keeps us back. We are taking babysteps as a race and "they" know this. Just like many animalia below us.
IF anybody wants proof as to the "UFO PHENOMENON AND ETs".. all I cansay is START RESEARCHING! THERE ARE SEAS WORTH OF INFO ON THE SUBJECT JUST TAKE TIME AND OPEN YOUR EYES!!!!!!!
There is something wrong when people feel good about saying.. "bahh fuck off! show me the money!" on the subject. It's all out there, you have all the tools.
-------------------- Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Whats wrong with the P+S heads? [Re: Ginseng1]
#7753991 - 12/13/07 02:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes, it is HIGHLY impossible that we are alone in this Universe, and I don't think that anyone has made that statement that E.T.s don't exist. What we argue about is them visiting our planet.  Can you note the difference?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe



Registered: 09/02/04
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Many times I have asked UFO buffs for their absolute BEST evidence and it was severely lacking.
Do people lie?
Do people exaggerate?
Do people like to tell stories?
Do people misidentify/fill in incomplete data with whatever they want to see?
We know these things are part of being human, so to believe more than that something solid needs to be presented. Hasn't happened yet.
Very, very much backwards thinking IMO.
Everybody makes up stories on UFOs because it's fun? Because they are bored?
Why don't you research in the subject and connect the dots?
-------------------- Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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