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5150
phantom

Registered: 09/01/06
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canada is safer than the united states, right
#7747129 - 12/11/07 09:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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NEW WESTMINSTER, British Columbia (Reuters) - Canadian serial killer Robert "Willie" Pickton was sentenced to life in prison with no hope of parole for 25 years on Tuesday after a gut-wrenching court hearing in which victims's families described their emotional devastation. ADVERTISEMENT
"Mr. Pickton there is really nothing that I can say to adequately express the revulsion the community feels about these killings," Justice James Williams said as he handed down the harshest sentence possible for the second degree murder.
Relatives of the victims erupted in cheers in the courtroom. Pickton did not react.
Pickton, 58, was convicted on Sunday for the murders of six women whose bodies were butchered in the slaughterhouse of his pig farm near Vancouver. He is charged with 26 murders and faces another trial on the remaining 20 murder counts.
"Nobody should meet death the way she did," Jay Draayers, a half brother of victim Sereena Abotsway, wrote in a statement read to the court. Abotsway's head, hands and feet were discovered in a bucket on Pickton's farm.
Some of the victims' relatives sobbed openly and even reporters and attorneys fought back tears as the statements were read.
Pickton sat emotionless in the prisoner's box as the family statements were read. He gazed at his hands that were folded on his lap.
Pickton leaned forward as if ready to speak when the judge later asked if he had anything to say, but his lawyer quickly said he would not address the court because he is still facing the 20 additional murder charges.
The life sentence was mandatory for a conviction on second degree murder, so the judge was deciding when would be eligible to apply for parole, within a range of 10 to 25 years.
Prosecutors had asked for the toughest sentence possible, calling the murders "cold blooded" and saying Pickton had shown no remorse. Canada does not have a death penalty.
WHY HURT MY MOTHER?
Pickton's victims were drug addicts and prostitutes in the poor Downtown Eastside of Vancouver on Canada's Pacific coast, but lead prosecutor Michael Petrie said it was important that the public know they were not "disposable people."
Pickton lured the women to his farm in the Vancouver suburb of Port Coquitlam, British Columbia, where he killed them and cut up their bodies to dispose of them.
The victims relatives talked of the brutality of the killings, and the pain of hearing their loved ones described in media reports only as sex trade workers and not as women who had families.
"Mr Pickton, why did you hurt my real mother and those other women?" 15-year-old Brittney Frey, daughter of Marnie Frey asked in a statement read by a relative.
The defense sought leniency saying Pickton also had a history of kindness. It noted the jury declined to convict him of the more serious charge first degree murder that required prosecutors to prove the killings were planned in advance.
But Pickton's attorney Peter Ritchie also acknowledged it was unlikely whatever sentence he received that a parole board would free a serial killer from prison.
The six murder victims were among more than 60 women who disappeared in Vancouver from the late 1980s until late 2001
this is like a real life texas chainsaw massacre, come on canada, you dont have guns there everthing is cool right, well maybe if there were more guns some of these bitches wouldnt have been fucked and gutted
-------------------- "the way of the warrior is the resolute acceptance of death" Miyamoto Musashi
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Coaster
BaĘżal



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Posts: 33,501
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: 5150]
#7747144 - 12/11/07 09:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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that foo is wack
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: 5150]
#7747160 - 12/11/07 09:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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statistically, canada is far safer than the u.s, although fucked up things happen all over the world.
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rainlover
Stranger


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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: Coaster]
#7747165 - 12/11/07 09:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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You must be forgetting the ridiculous numbers of serial killers and random gun violence in the states.
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MrBump
Third prize is you're fired



Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 4,263
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: rainlover]
#7747203 - 12/11/07 09:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html
PROVINCES AND TERRITORIES RANKED BY HOMICIDE RATE, 2003 PROVINCE/TERRITORY PER 100,000 (1) Nunavut 10.21 (2) Northwest Territories 9.55 (3) Saskatchewan 4.12 (4) Manitoba 3.70 (5) Yukon 3.22 (6) British Columbia 2.24 (7) Alberta 2.00 (8) Ontario 1.45 (9) Quebec 1.34 (10) New Brunswick 1.07 (11) Newfoundland 0.96 (12) Nova Scotia 0.85 (13) Prince Edward Island 0.73
TEN WORST LARGE CITIES FOR MURDER, 2002 CITY PER 100,000 (1) Washington, DC 45.8 (2) Detroit 42.0 (3) Baltimore 38.3 (4) Memphis 24.7 (5) Chicago 22.2 (6) Philadelphia 19.0 (7) Columbus 18.1 (8) Milwaukee 18.0 (9) Los Angeles 17.5 (10) Dallas 15.8
TEN SAFEST LARGE CITIES FOR MURDER, 2002 CITY PER 100,000 (1) Honolulu 2.0 (2) El Paso 2.4 (3) San Jose 3.1 (4) Austin 3.7 (5) San Diego 3.8 (6) Portland 3.9 (7) Seattle 4.5 (8) New York 7.3 (9) San Francisco 7.3 (10) Oklahoma City 8.5
yep, tiny bits of anecdotal evidence are way more convincing than actual facts.
-------------------- If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all. There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn. Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?
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Gastronomicus
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: 5150]
#7747206 - 12/11/07 09:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
5150 said: whose bodies were butchered in the slaughterhouse of his pig farm near Vancouver.
Someone saw Snatch before he started killin folks
But really man, you're gonna have psychopathic killers everywhere, that's life
-------------------- Make my Funk the P Funk, I wants to get Funked up
LAGM2024
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SapphireCat
Seeker



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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: Gastronomicus]
#7747256 - 12/11/07 09:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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i thought of snatch aswell.
thecornking: from wherever you got those statistics, would they have the statistics for gun related crimes aswell? (armed robbery etc?)
guns dont stop murderers, and guns dont encourage murderers either imo. but i do find that guns being available would make someone in a desperate spot hold up a place.
-------------------- Beauty of style and harmony and grace and good rhythm depend on Simplicity ~Plato
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Silversoul
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: SapphireCat]
#7747269 - 12/11/07 09:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
SapphireCat said: guns dont stop murderers, and guns dont encourage murderers either imo. but i do find that guns being available would make someone in a desperate spot hold up a place.
I don't know about that either. My biggest concern with guns is that if you're suicidal, you could make a more rash decision with a gun around than you could with a razor blade or a bunch of pills.
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MrBump
Third prize is you're fired



Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: SapphireCat]
#7747270 - 12/11/07 09:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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the link is at the top of my first post. it has some gun related stats.
"Two thirds of all 1992 US murders were accomplished with firearms. Handguns were used in about half of all murders. Sharp instruments were used in 17% of murders and blunt instruments in about 6%."
don't know if there's anything about gun related violence/robberies in the link.
-------------------- If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all. There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn. Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?
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robbyberto
Water Boy


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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: Silversoul]
#7747302 - 12/11/07 09:59 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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We better ban them then, right? People will always kill themselves. Guns make it easier. Good. Who cares? Its a non-issue.
-------------------- “People say having kids is life changing, well that doesn’t necessarily mean a good thing, does it? I could take one of my legs off. That would change my life.” -Karl Pilkington
Edited by robbyberto (12/11/07 09:59 PM)
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SapphireCat
Seeker



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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: MrBump]
#7747326 - 12/11/07 10:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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aw man, way too tired to go searchin tonight, think i'll just hit the hay instead 
out of curiosity.... any person pro-firearms that can explain to me how they see all the gun related crimes? or is it seen that criminals will get their hands on firearms anyway or what?
like it's all well and good for me to say that im generally a pacifist but put into a situation, i would defend myself with violence if communication couldnt weasel me out of a situation, id possibly even use a blunt object to try and gain advantage over whoever i was threatened by, but a gun? i just don't see it?
-------------------- Beauty of style and harmony and grace and good rhythm depend on Simplicity ~Plato
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5150
phantom

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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: Silversoul]
#7747340 - 12/11/07 10:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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i suppose a bullet would only make it easier if your a dumbfuck, in how many movies have you seen someone sit in their garage with the engine running, pretty simple to do
look at the lead singer of Boston
Brad Delp: Details Emerge About His Tragic Suicide
The parked car was unattended, but to the police who arrived at Brad Delp’s home on March 9, it was immediately clear that something was amiss.
A dryer vent hose connected to the car’s exhaust pipe lay on the ground alongside the vehicle. Inside the garage, a note taped to the house door made the owner’s intentions explicit:
“To whoever finds this I have hopefully committed suicide. Plan B was to asphyxiate myself in my car.”
The police had been called to the Boston lead singer’s home in Atkinson, New Hampshire, by his fiancée, Pamela Sullivan, after she’d discovered Delp’s car with the dryer hose attached. Delp “had been depressed for some time,” Sullivan told the police, “feeling emotional [and] bad about himself.”
Inside the house, on a door at the top of the stairs, the police found a second note directing them to the master bedroom. Cautiously they made their way inside and into the master bedroom. There, like a portent, a third note warned them of the possible presence of deadly carbon monoxide.
Outside the bathroom of the master bedroom, a faint smell of burnt charcoal hovered in the air. The police knocked on the bathroom door. “Mr. Delp?” they called. “Sir, are you inside? Are you okay, sir?”
After a lengthy silence, they turned their shoulders to the door and began battering it with their full force. As it gave, the odor of charcoal intensified and hot plumes of blue-grey smoke poured from the excavated room. Broken tape along the door indicated it had been sealed. The police waited for the smoke to abate, then entered the room, covering their mouths and waving away the haze.
As the smoke cleared, the scene within the bathroom slowly came into view. Two charcoal grills perched among the bathroom fixtures, their metal tops emitting heat waves. On the floor beside them lay the body of a man, his head resting on a pillow. A note paper-clipped to the neck of his shirt told them what they needed to know: "Mr. Brad Delp. Jai une ame salitaire. I am a lonely soul.”
Brad Delp was dead, a suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning, according to the New Hampshire medical examiner. He was 55.
Though his fragile emotional state had been known to his fiancée, Delp’s fans were none the wiser. To millions of music fans, he was forever the singer whose buoyant voice carried Boston to the top of the charts in the Seventies and Eighties with hits like “More Than a Feeling, “Peace of Mind,” “Long Time” and “Amanda.” At the time of his death, Delp was preparing for a summer tour with his Boston band mates, guitarists Tom Scholz and Barry Goudreau. He had also planned to marry Sullivan during a break in the tour.
Police found four sealed letters in the home that were addressed to Sullivan; Delp’s children; their mother, Micki Delp; and another unidentified couple. Police lieutenant William Baldwin said the police had given the letters to the family members without reading them.
Whatever insights the letters may have provided, Delp provided sufficient clues to his circumstances in one of the notes found at his house: “I take complete and sole responsibility for my present situation. I have lost my desire to live,” he wrote, adding instructions to the police on how to contact his fiancée. “Unfortunately she is totally unaware of what I have done.”
Brad Delp was cremated on Wednesday, March 14.
truly 1 of the better vocalist, if u havent heared Boston, check them out now, great music
-------------------- "the way of the warrior is the resolute acceptance of death" Miyamoto Musashi
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: robbyberto]
#7747342 - 12/11/07 10:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
robbyberto said: We better ban them then, right? People will always kill themselves. Guns make it easier. Good. Who cares? Its a non-issue.
I'm in no way anti-gun. I think banning guns is no more effective than banning drugs. But just because I oppose drug prohibition does not mean I think it's a good idea to shoot heroin. I support responsible drug use and responsible gun use.
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SummerOfLove
Stranger


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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: Silversoul]
#7747524 - 12/11/07 11:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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The argument can be made that a crazed gunman can be shot by a bystander to "save the day" This is the largest argument for pro-firearms lobbyists, however, is it not obvious that if the accessibility to guns was not so damn high, people wouldn't have them (and in succession, they wouldn't kill folks)?
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: SummerOfLove]
#7747572 - 12/11/07 11:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
SummerOfLove said: The argument can be made that a crazed gunman can be shot by a bystander to "save the day" This is the largest argument for pro-firearms lobbyists, however, is it not obvious that if the accessibility to guns was not so damn high, people wouldn't have them (and in succession, they wouldn't kill folks)?
I think the problem would be that those who did have guns would be those you would want to protect yourself from. In my freshman year of college, I had a roommate who had some gangster friends. We would sometimes go over to these guys' apartment and smoke weed. One time, one of the guys showed off the gun he had just gotten off the black market. No registration or anything. I would not want guys like that being the only ones with guns.
I've seen a lot of statistics on gun violence that can be interpreted multiple ways, so it's hard to say just how dangerous gun ownership is to society or how effective gun control is. But in the absence of certainty, I'd rather err on the side of freedom. I realize that's not such a popular sentiment these days.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: Silversoul]
#7747585 - 12/11/07 11:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I had to pull my gun once. People ridiculed me for being a cowboy and such. People said, "Just learn a martial art". The reality is that by pulling my gun I completely defused the situation. The dude backed up and walked away.
If I had tried to use "martial arts" or if I had not pulled my gun then there would have been a serious fight and one of us would have gone to the hospital.
From my cold dead hands.
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Disco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: 5150]
#7747633 - 12/11/07 11:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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That crazy man lives, or lived, like 5-10 minutes from me.
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tiny_rabid_birds
Nocturnal



Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 15,653
Loc: estados unidos
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: Disco Cat]
#7747646 - 12/11/07 11:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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you might unknowingly have some human remains buried on/near your property. creepy.
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Disco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
#7747683 - 12/11/07 11:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well any jewlerly left on them is now mine, end of discussion, or else
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paradox_
Life as Shaun



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Posts: 349
Loc: BC
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: 5150]
#7747733 - 12/12/07 12:12 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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This happened nearly six years ago. Well, the part where they started finding bodies on his farm did.
I don't understand how more guns being around would have stopped this guy from killing anyone.
I wonder why he left body parts in buckets and randomly all over his property when he could have just fed the whole thing to his pigs. You know, they will go through bone like butter.
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Ziggen
Bludgeon Yer Eye



Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 651
Loc: Parts Unknown
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: paradox_]
#7747752 - 12/12/07 12:22 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
paradox_ said: I don't understand how more guns being around would have stopped this guy from killing anyone.
If any one of the women he had killed had been carrying a gun, she, along with all the women killed after her, would still be alive.
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tiny_rabid_birds
Nocturnal



Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 15,653
Loc: estados unidos
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: Ziggen]
#7747764 - 12/12/07 12:31 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Ziggen said:
Quote:
paradox_ said: I don't understand how more guns being around would have stopped this guy from killing anyone.
If any one of the women he had killed had been carrying a gun, she, along with all the women killed after her, would still be alive.
oh please. for every violent crime privately owned guns are used to stop in the US, there are like ten more they facilitate. i'm going to admit that that ratio is complete bullshit, but i would NOT be surprised if it was that drastic or even moreso, given that statistic of 2/3rds of murders in the US being the result of gun-use.
a statement such of yours is far too much of a boy-in-the-bubble scenario, ignoring all the other negative effects public gun-use would have.
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tiny_rabid_birds
Nocturnal



Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 15,653
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
#7747775 - 12/12/07 12:35 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ziggen
Bludgeon Yer Eye



Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 651
Loc: Parts Unknown
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
#7747813 - 12/12/07 12:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
tiny_rabid_birds said: ahem.. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7747762/an/0/page/0
Quote:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/12/11/national/main3608589.shtml?source=mostpop_story
CBS/AP) Six young people were shot at about 2 p.m. in a northeast Las Vegas neighborhood Tuesday after they stepped off a bus that had left a high school. Authorities say at least one person was critically injured in the attack, which happened just blocks away from two elementary schools.
"They were just like sitting ducks as soon as the bus pulled away - bam bam bam - they start getting shot like that," says Elaine Budesa, an eyewitness
What's your point? It's a shame that none of those kids were armed so that they could defend themselves.
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tiny_rabid_birds
Nocturnal



Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 15,653
Loc: estados unidos
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: Ziggen]
#7747826 - 12/12/07 01:05 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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wow. that is such a good idea. let's give all kids guns so they can defend themselves! holy shit, that's a nobel prize winning thought process right there. nevermind the irresponsible gun use that already runs rampant causing thousands of deaths yearly. the obvious answer is just put guns into the hands of children with absolutely no qualifications and training who are often impetuous and driven by emotion.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
#7747835 - 12/12/07 01:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I would have loved it if I got to carry my gun in high school.
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tiny_rabid_birds
Nocturnal



Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 15,653
Loc: estados unidos
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7747838 - 12/12/07 01:10 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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lotta people love meth. doesn't make it a good idea.
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Ziggen
Bludgeon Yer Eye



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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
#7747847 - 12/12/07 01:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Lots of kids are trained and qualified to use guns. Also, the more people there are carrying guns around me, the safer I feel. When was the last time you heard about a mass shooting at a gun show or NRA meeting, instead of a supposedly gun-free area like a school or a post office.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
#7747858 - 12/12/07 01:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I view guns like any other tool. They offer society some good but they also bring along bad.
For example, automobiles have allowed a level of comfort and transportation unparalleled throughout history and this has enriched our lives. But, they also kill about a hundred thousand people a year (about ten times the amount of people killed by guns). However, the positives of cars outweigh the negatives. I view guns in the same way. The positives of gun legality outweigh the negatives.
We must ensure that there are appropriate rules in place that will mitigate the negatives of said tools. Hence we have speed limits and mandatory licensing for cars. We also have rules in place for guns. I don't think we need anymore gun regulations.
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tiny_rabid_birds
Nocturnal



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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: Ziggen]
#7747861 - 12/12/07 01:29 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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it's not simply physical training and the ability to handle a gun safely. it's more about mental and emotional maturity that are required for the user not to fly off the handle. teenagers are ridiculously angsty. you're fucking daft beyond belief if you don't realize increased teenage access to guns won't result in a HUGE increase in school shootings and rash suicides in during a bout of hormonal emotions.
yes, an NRA meeting will most likely not end up in a shootout, because many of those users are full-grown adults that have been using guns for years and have an appropriate respect for what they're capable of. but increased availability for those qualified means the easier it will be to get guns off of the black market, which gets the guns into hands with very negative intentions. if handguns weren't so fucking prevalent, then you'd never feel the need to own your own. you wouldn't have to worry about it.
there's no point in arguing over this. you're hardly even making any legitimate points. i can't believe you actually condoned not only widespread gun ownership of high school students, but their taking the guns to class. absolutely ridiculous. it's really mind-blowing.
i'm done. planet earth is calling me. i think jungles is the next one i have.
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tiny_rabid_birds
Nocturnal



Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 15,653
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7747864 - 12/12/07 01:33 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said: I view guns like any other tool. They offer society some good but they also bring along bad.
For example, automobiles have allowed a level of comfort and transportation unparalleled throughout history and this has enriched our lives. But, they also kill about a hundred thousand people a year (about ten times the amount of people killed by guns). However, the positives of cars outweigh the negatives. I view guns in the same way. The positives of gun legality outweigh the negatives.
We must ensure that there are appropriate rules in place that will mitigate the negatives of said tools. Hence we have speed limits and mandatory licensing for cars. We also have rules in place for guns. I don't think we need anymore gun regulations.
but it's a fucking positive feedback loop. a cycle of violence feeding upon itself. the more available guns are to qualified, registered users, the more available they become to violent criminals and unstable psychopaths through the black market. the more violent crimes that occur, the more people feel they need to protect themselves, and more people get guns.
if you weren't afraid of every mugger/carjacker/thug dealer carrying a gun, then you wouldn't feel the need to carry a gun. then people's lives would not be stake at the mere pull of a trigger.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: Ziggen]
#7747865 - 12/12/07 01:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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In my hometown there are never any home invasions. Everybody owns multiple guns because it's a rural/big hunting area. If you break into a home when the homeowner is there then you will probably die.
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tiny_rabid_birds
Nocturnal



Registered: 11/08/05
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7747869 - 12/12/07 01:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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increased thefts and burglaries vs. increased violent homicides
i don't know about you, but that's not even a comparison worth questioning imho.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
#7747875 - 12/12/07 01:46 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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tiny_rabid_birds said: but it's a fucking positive feedback loop. a cycle of violence feeding upon itself. the more available guns are to qualified, registered users, the more available they become to violent criminals and unstable psychopaths through the black market.
If you made guns illegal then only criminals would have them and crime would increase dramatically because they would know that the vast amount of citizens wouldn't be able to protect themselves.
Just because a few psychos go off the handle and because some criminals choose to disobey the law doesn't mean that we should limit law-abiding citizen's access to firearms. If some dumbfuck got drunk and got in a car accident does that mean my car should be taken away from me?
There are already so many firearms in the hands of law-abiding citizens and in the hands of the black market that restricting their sale isn't going to do a damn bit of good...because the market is already saturated.
Did you watch Bowling for Columbine or something?
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD



Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7747879 - 12/12/07 01:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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RandalFlagg said: In my hometown there are never any home invasions. Everybody owns multiple guns because it's a rural/big hunting area. If you break into a home when the homeowner is there then you will probably die.
You mean 'someone' will die, not necessarily the home owner.
Most people who own guns/rifles don't have a clue how to handle them properly or handle them in pressure situations.
But to me the biggest problem is not guns or the laws around them, but rather the society and its attitudes. People often say look at how safe Switzerland is, with all its guns/rifles and military training! SEE guns = safe.
Yet the truth is, if you have ever ventured outside your own country you'd see that switzerland 'feels' safe, and nobody is worried about home invasions or murder when they are walking home.
What happens when you walk home in NYC? or hear a strange noise outside your apartment in Dallas? Fear is the biggest problem with the problems of gun violence.
State of mind is to blame in gun violent countries, not the actual guns/laws themselves.
I'm surprised a drug site like this doesn't get that, since we see how an utter failure tough drug laws are and that the fear of drugs is just a joke to society once you realize the lies of it all.
So gun safety is all about human state of mind and a society not riddled with fear of the black man, fear of your neighbor, fear of your daughter walking home from school, etc..
Its not that hard to see what the problem is, people keep focusing on statistics and crap that isn't the problem
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RandalFlagg
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: Thor]
#7747894 - 12/12/07 01:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thor said: State of mind is to blame in gun violent countries, not the actual guns/laws themselves.
Fear is not causing gun violence in the U.S. The vast majority of homicides are committed because of one of the two following reasons:
1. Anger (somebody pisses you off and you want to get them back). 2. Greed (somebody wants to take something from someone and they kill them in the process).
Fear has nothing to do with these things. Most homicides in this country are either pissed off people taking someone out or criminals killing citizens or other criminals. Law-abiding and responsible gun-owners commit very very few gun homicides.
When black males commit homicide at 8 times the rate of white males...then us white people have every right to be wary of the black community and its inherent criminality. In my city black people make up 25% of the population yet they account for 95% of the homicides. Is it my fault that they seem intent on blowing each other away? Nope. Just because other people act irresponsibly with their firearms doesn't mean that mine should be taken away from me.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
#7747898 - 12/12/07 02:02 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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tiny_rabid_birds said: increased thefts and burglaries vs. increased violent homicides
i don't know about you, but that's not even a comparison worth questioning imho.
It's not law-abiding citizens who are killing people. It's criminals. Criminals don't obey laws anyways. You can pass whatever law you want, illegalize whatever you want, and they will ignore it. The only defense that we have against such criminality is to be armed sometimes. Sometimes the police aren't going to get there in time and you have to handle stuff yourself.
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD



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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7747902 - 12/12/07 02:04 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Oh there is much more to it than fear, but its a very real component.
You state that 98% of gun crimes in your area are that of black people, so you 'fear' them or the danger they create. Wrong or right, its facts.
I'm not sure where you see me suggesting laws against ownership of guns or that I'm debating against you. I'm in fact for responsible ownership and use of firearms. I'm just blatantly aware of the difference of living in the US under the fear of gang violence, media over portraying fear/danger, and the reason why so many stupid people have firearms.
It all starts with the state of mind, gun violence in the USA isn't because of any lack of laws; its because of gangs, poverty and other huge factors people don't touch with a 1000 foot pole since they fear being called racists.
I don't blame black people, I blame the societial situation that has led to the problems. How you fix them, fuck knows but its obvious where the vast majority of gun violence comes from.
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tiny_rabid_birds
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7747914 - 12/12/07 02:16 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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RandalFlagg said:
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tiny_rabid_birds said: but it's a fucking positive feedback loop. a cycle of violence feeding upon itself. the more available guns are to qualified, registered users, the more available they become to violent criminals and unstable psychopaths through the black market.
If you made guns illegal then only criminals would have them and crime would increase dramatically because they would know that the vast amount of citizens wouldn't be able to protect themselves.
Just because a few psychos go off the handle and because some criminals choose to disobey the law doesn't mean that we should limit law-abiding citizen's access to firearms. If some dumbfuck got drunk and got in a car accident does that mean my car should be taken away from me?
There are already so many firearms in the hands of law-abiding citizens and in the hands of the black market that restricting their sale isn't going to do a damn bit of good...because the market is already saturated.
Did you watch Bowling for Columbine or something?
i never suggested any policy change in the US for that very reason. honestly, i haven't a clue how to fix america's vast amount of gun-related violence, so i won't pretend like i do.
my argument simply started with that dude's claim that "if one of those women had a gun, then it would have stopped long ago", which basically suggested canada should allow guns. more guns in society does NOT fucking mean a safer society. that's bullshit, pure and simple.
and no, i didn't watch any movie or anything. i've just never been a proponent of guns, and people making retarded claims really tends to rile me up.
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Thor
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
#7747923 - 12/12/07 02:22 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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tiny_rabid_birds said:
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RandalFlagg said:
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tiny_rabid_birds said: but it's a fucking positive feedback loop. a cycle of violence feeding upon itself. the more available guns are to qualified, registered users, the more available they become to violent criminals and unstable psychopaths through the black market.
If you made guns illegal then only criminals would have them and crime would increase dramatically because they would know that the vast amount of citizens wouldn't be able to protect themselves.
Just because a few psychos go off the handle and because some criminals choose to disobey the law doesn't mean that we should limit law-abiding citizen's access to firearms. If some dumbfuck got drunk and got in a car accident does that mean my car should be taken away from me?
There are already so many firearms in the hands of law-abiding citizens and in the hands of the black market that restricting their sale isn't going to do a damn bit of good...because the market is already saturated.
Did you watch Bowling for Columbine or something?
i never suggested any policy change in the US for that very reason. honestly, i haven't a clue how to fix america's vast amount of gun-related violence, so i won't pretend like i do.
my argument simply started with that dude's claim that "if one of those women had a gun, then it would have stopped long ago", which basically suggested canada should allow guns. more guns in society does NOT fucking mean a safer society. that's bullshit, pure and simple.
and no, i didn't watch any movie or anything. i've just never been a proponent of guns, and people making retarded claims really tends to rile me up.
Also there is a lot of gun/rifle ownership in Canada to begin with, per capita speaking.
Here's a thought, had we not had prostitution illegal a lot of these women wouldn't have been in harms way. Legalize prostitution, control it.
That would cut down on crime surrounding it in a big way.
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Ziggen
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
#7747924 - 12/12/07 02:23 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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tiny_rabid_birds said: my argument simply started with that dude's claim that "if one of those women had a gun, then it would have stopped long ago", which basically suggested canada should allow guns.
Canada does allow guns, in fact. I'm too lazy to do any actual research right now, but I'm pretty sure that Canadians own more guns per capita than Americans.
It's just a shame that none of the poor women who were murdered by that psycho had one.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: Thor]
#7747926 - 12/12/07 02:23 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thor said: You state that 98% of gun crimes in your area are that of black people, so you 'fear' them or the danger they create. Wrong or right, its facts.
I don't fear them. I just am rational about where the highest chance of physical danger is. A hundred some years ago it was out in the Wild West where white people were blowing each other away. Nowadays, it's in the inner-city in black neighborhoods. 
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Thor said: I'm in fact for responsible ownership and use of firearms. I'm just blatantly aware of the difference of living in the US under the fear of gang violence, media over portraying fear/danger, and the reason why so many stupid people have firearms.
Gang violence is quite real. Danger is quite real. But, as I said law-abiding citizens or even stupid law-abiding citizens aren't doing the killing. It's the criminals and the occassional nutjob who are.
When weighing how to regulate a certain tool at the legal level one must go for the most utilitarian approach. What will cause the most benefit and limit the most negatives? I am willing to compromise and examine other viewpoints on gun regulation. I am even willing to consider new restrictions on firearms. However, much of the anti-gun lobby is frothing at the mouth for complete illegalization like in the UK. I would never stand for that.
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Thor said: I don't blame black people, I blame the societial situation that has led to the problems. How you fix them, fuck knows but its obvious where the vast majority of gun violence comes from.
Poverty is relative. When you have a roof over your head, you're overweight (because of eating too much), you have a cell-phone, and you have clothing on your back....are you poor? Maybe in America but not when compared to the vast majority of people who have existed on this earth.
I think it's cultural. The black community plays the victim, rejects mainstream society, and embraces destructive behaviors and role models which sets the stage for such blatant violence and degradation.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
#7747928 - 12/12/07 02:26 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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tiny_rabid_birds said: i never suggested any policy change in the US for that very reason. honestly, i haven't a clue how to fix america's vast amount of gun-related violence, so i won't pretend like i do.
It's a difficult and complicated subject, How do you limit violence without trampling upon the population's 2nd Amendment rights? How do you impose regulations and enforce them adequately?
We need compromise, common sense, and respect for individual freedom. Ideologues on both sides just poison the debate.
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Disco Cat
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: Ziggen]
#7750143 - 12/12/07 04:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ziggen said:
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paradox_ said: I don't understand how more guns being around would have stopped this guy from killing anyone.
If any one of the women he had killed had been carrying a gun, she, along with all the women killed after her, would still be alive.
It would have made no difference at all. They were prostitutes and junkies which pickton picked up, and I think he was shooting them up with winshield washer fluid\radiator fluid, or just strangling them. If a gun would have helped, so could a taser, but as we can see either none of these people had one, or there just wasn't the chance or the foreknowledge to use it. I think he claims to have killed 49 people, but so far they have found remains from only 26 bodies.
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Andrew Bellwood told court he and Mr. Pickton were watching television in Mr. Pickton's residence in March 1999 when Mr. Pickton described how he killed prostitutes by having sex with them from behind, handcuffing them and strangling them before taking them to his slaughterhouse.
If he pickes up a prostitute for bondage sex, and kills them while they're bound up, a gun clearly can't do anything.
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